Leaving a Job You Hate & Finding One You Love

You can have a respectable job, a steady paycheck, and a life that looks fine from the outside, and still feel like you’re slowly disappearing. We’re talking about that moment when you realize the job isn’t just “not ideal” anymore, it’s actively draining your health, your relationships, and your sense of self. Etty, Heidi, and Jane get honest about what it takes to leave a job you hate and find work you actually love, without pretending the risk isn’t real.

We dig into why so many people stay stuck: low work engagement, burnout that creeps up in predictable cycles, and the brutal math of benefits when healthcare is tied to employment. Etienne shares what burnout looks like in nursing when you’re running on fumes, and Jane unpacks the “golden handcuffs” problem of being well paid while feeling trapped. We also talk about reinvention, how long it takes other people to trust the “new you,” and why midlife career change can be both scary and freeing.

Then we get practical about the modern job market. AI is part of the equation now, whether you love it or hate it. Our take: use AI to amplify your impact and speed up your research, planning, and execution, but double down on what makes you impossible to replace: empathy, presence, creativity, and real human connection.

Subscribe to Women Are Plotting, share this with a friend who’s stuck, and leave a review if it helped you take your next step. What’s the biggest thing keeping you from making a move?

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Etienne: But the rest of the world, no, you probably have to do the whole, "I'm gonna have to suffer here a little bit longer until I get the next job." And it's kind of like those people who are serial monogamists, you know, where they can't leave the current boyfriend until we have the next boyfriend lined up.

[00:00:14] Jane: Oh my gosh, yes.

[00:00:16] Etienne: Sorry, I don't know why that just popped into my head,

[00:00:18] Jane: No, but that's a good point because it's like, you know, you need the safety net of like, I will not be alone. This person's waiting in the wings. And it's like that with a job, you need the safety net of knowing. But statistically, it's much easier to get hired if you already have a job.

[00:00:32] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:47] Etienne: On today's episode, 

[00:00:53] Etienne: we're gonna be talking about leaving a job you hate and finding one you love. And my fun or interesting fact for today is the demographic differences between people who are looking for new jobs or who want new jobs. So younger workers, particularly those under 25 years old, are most likely to switch jobs, and that's at 45%, while those aged 55 to 64 are the least likely to switch jobs, and that's 25%.

[00:01:19] Etienne: So, I don't wanna go into too many other statistics. This is from CNBC, by the way, that statistic. Because I think that maybe Heidi

[00:01:28] Heidi: Nope.

[00:01:28] Etienne: have other statistics, and hopefully I didn't... Okay, good. What? Yay. You're still laughing. Love it

[00:01:35] Heidi: It's

[00:01:36] Jane: laughing 'cause it's my turn. But,

[00:01:38] Etienne: Oh shit, I forgot. Oh

[00:01:40] Heidi: You forgot

[00:01:42] Etienne: the fuck did

[00:01:43] Jane: D- so for the audience... Oh, we should leave this in. We should totally leave this in. This is funny. So we were just joking about, 'cause we take turns giving the fun facts, and we recorded two episodes today, and we just recorded one where Heidi went second, which means on this one, then I go second. So we were just joking about how like we just did this 45 minutes ago, we'll remember, but

[00:02:00] Etienne: Yes, literally.

[00:02:01] Jane: But so I will go next, and I looked at a Gallup poll that was very recent, and in this Gallup poll, it found that 

[00:02:15] Jane: only 31% of American workers say they feel engaged at work, which is the lowest level in over a decade.

[00:02:16] Jane: So apparently a little less than a third of Americans actually feel engaged at work right now, meaning that most people are basically answering emails in a slow, emotional hostage situation. Like

[00:02:26] Etienne: Oh no, that's a great way to put it

[00:02:29] Jane: I mean, yeah, I'm, I c- I can relate, but that's, we'll, we'll press pause on that discussion for right now. So Heidi, what's your fun

[00:02:38] Heidi: So I went into changing careers midlife direction with this.

[00:02:44] Jane: Yes

[00:02:45] Heidi: Changing careers in midlife is so common and often a successful endeavor. So, I didn't write down where I got this. I think it was AARP, but anyway, roughly 90% of career changes over 40 report increased happiness and decreased stress.

[00:03:03] Heidi: So changing careers actually made their life better, like 50% seeing higher pay and 70% felt like a new person, which that goes along with tying your job to your identity. And so if you change careers and it's something you prefer and you enjoy doing, you feel like you're a new person

[00:03:23] Etienne: Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, definitely. I sort of did that. 

[00:03:26] Etienne: I went from being a legal assistant/pseudo paralegal 'cause I didn't actually get a paralegal certificate, and went into nursing in my mid-30s is when I started nursing school. I can't say that it lowered my stress level. Not at all.

[00:03:44] Etienne: You go from like people's lives not being in your hands to people's lives being in your hands, and that does increase your stress. But, it was really nice to have an actual career that people respect because especially when I became a nurse at that time, this was 2008 is when I passed my licensing exam, nurses were still considered one of the most trusted professions.

[00:04:06] Etienne: I don't know if that still holds up since COVID because everything got switched up after COVID. But pre-COVID, we were one of the top most respected professions. I think top five actually. I think we were above doctors too, which is shocking. Yeah, because we're the ones that are actually like s- like monitoring,

[00:04:25] Heidi: Yeah, and

[00:04:25] Etienne: doctors are not monitoring. The doctors just find out what's happening from the nurses, so I think everybody who's been in a hospital knows that. But yeah, that's not less stress, I can say that for sure.

[00:04:38] Heidi: Did you feel like a new person?

[00:04:40] Etienne: I did, but you know what's funny? I was... That was when I was married. I still was married for another, oh gosh, it was quite a few years after that. Six more years. But what was funny is my ex-husband when we were married and after I became a nurse, he actually didn't trust me when it came to talking about health things. So, while I was married, he broke his leg playing soccer. I was not present when it happened, but the situation was the... We'd had a lot of rain in Charleston, and he was playing, just, like, men's league. You know, this wasn't professional soccer. This was just for fun. And they had their game the day after it had rained, like, many, many days in a row, so the fields were very soft, and he was going... He was a striker, I believe. That was the position that he held on his team. And he went to hit the ball in the goal.

[00:05:28] Etienne: His left foot, he planted in the ground, 'cause he's right-handed and right-footed. So as he was swinging his right foot to come hit the ball, his foot sunk into the ground,

[00:05:39] Heidi: Oh, no

[00:05:40] Etienne: sunk into the ground, and he didn't realize what was happening. So instead of hitting the

[00:05:43] Heidi: Oh

[00:05:45] Etienne: ball, he hit the fucking earth with all of his might, and he fell over, and hobbled off the field. But I found out because I was home, and when he came home, he's hobbling through the house, and I'm like, "What is happening? What happened?" And he told me, and I was like, "Okay. Uh, can I see it?" And I was like... It was really swollen already, 'cause it'd been, like... He waited till the end of the game to come home.

[00:06:10] Heidi: Oh my God.

[00:06:10] Etienne: And, I was like, "That looks really bad. Yeah." And, but he was like, "No, no, I think I just sprained it." And I'm like, "Okay." He's like, "Well, I've got crutches, so I'll just, you know, I'll use crutches. I'll be fine." And I'm like, "Okay." And so he used crutches the next day, and I kept looking at it.

[00:06:28] Etienne: So, like, that next night I looked at it, I'm like, "Mm, that's still... I mean, that looks worse than yesterday. Like, I don't think it should look worse." And he's like, "It's fine. It's fine." He went to work again. So this is, like, the second day. Yeah, he, so he went to work the first day, or the first day after. He went to work the second day after, and that night I looked at it, and it now was losing color.

[00:06:53] Etienne: So it was, like, losing color at the bottom of his foot, and it looked like the color was being lost in a progressive fashion, up his leg. And I said, " I am not gonna be speaking to you again until you go to the doctor." "I am not... No. This is the last thing you're gonna hear me say. I love you. I care about you.

[00:07:14] Etienne: This shit looks bad, so if I..." That's it, and I just stopped talking. So I had to go to work the next day. I worked day shift, so I went to work the next day. I get a call, like at 11:00 that morning at work. Nobody was carrying their own personal cell phones at work, so he had to call the main number for my unit and then be transferred to me so that...

[00:07:35] Etienne: So I was getting a call on my work phone, basically. And I could not believe I was hearing his voice, and he's like, "Um, so can you get off work tomorrow?" And I'm like, "Well, why do I need to get off work?" He said, "Uh, because my leg is broken. Um, it's a spiral fracture. So I have to have emergency surgery tomorrow, and I'm gonna get plates and screws put in my leg."

[00:08:00] Etienne: And I'm like, "Oh, really?" Like, "Yes, I will find a way. I will definitely get off work tomorrow. Don't worry about it. I can drive you." Yeah, so it was just outpatient surgery. He had to have full on plate and screws put in his leg. Yeah, 'cause

[00:08:16] Heidi: So he broke his leg, not his foot?

[00:08:19] Etienne: Yeah, he broke one of the... I can't remember. It wasn't both bones. It was one of his bones. So you could literally feel after the surgery, you could feel the screws and the plate in his leg.

[00:08:28] Heidi: Oh, wow

[00:08:29] Etienne: But it meant also fast healing because when you have plates and screws put in, there's literally no downtime after that. Like, you basically don't wanna walk on it for maybe a couple days, I think it was, and then after that you're fine, as long as your pain

[00:08:42] Heidi: that's amazing

[00:08:43] Etienne: Yeah, so his pain was controlled and yeah, he could literally walk on it like days later. It was crazy. Um, but yeah, he did not believe me. I was like, " This is really bad. This is starting to look like gangrene. There's just something wrong here, and I know I haven't been a nurse for that long."

[00:08:56] Etienne: But at that point I had been a nurse for at least two or three years at the hospital, so like, "You should fucking listen to me. I've been seeing this three days a week for multiple years now. I know when it looks bad. I have a feeling this is very, very bad, and like, you're just not listening to me." So yeah.

[00:09:17] Etienne: Yeah, changing careers did not help. If you go to some normal career and then you do something like what I did where you go into the healthcare industry, your significant other might have a hard time now seeing you as this different

[00:09:28] Heidi: Yeah. Yes.

[00:09:29] Etienne: like that.

[00:09:30] Heidi: Trusting your knowledge. Yes

[00:09:32] Etienne: But I was right. I was right there was something really bad wrong with him. I couldn't say what, but it

[00:09:37] Jane: should trust you he didn't see-- The most recent Gallup poll I'm looking at on honesty and ethics in professions and the professions Americans consistently rank as the most trusted, nurses are still top. It goes nurses, then pharmacists, then medical doctors, then elementary school teachers,

[00:09:53] Etienne: Oh,

[00:09:53] Jane: then military officers, then engineers.

[00:09:56] Etienne: Oh, wow. Wow, we're

[00:09:57] Jane: the top

[00:09:58] Etienne: tied up.

[00:09:59] Jane: But

[00:09:59] Etienne: and that's not why I picked that profession, I can tell

[00:10:02] Jane: You're like, "I need to

[00:10:03] Heidi: I'm surprised firefighters aren't in there. I've never met, like, a bad firefighter, I guess

[00:10:09] Etienne: Interesting. I just know they're hot. I've never... Oh, I might. I went on a date with one firefighter recently. He was very sweet. 

[00:10:15] Heidi: Like, they're willing to run into burning buildings to

[00:10:19] Etienne: probably not having conversations with firefighters. You know what I mean? Like, the other, the other people

[00:10:23] Heidi: I just imagine that they would be up there as like, yeah, you can trust a firefighter

[00:10:29] Jane: Well, I could broaden this to like the top 10, but I just asked for the top

[00:10:33] Etienne: firefighters on there? 'Cause maybe we...

[00:10:35] Jane: But I would imagine,

[00:10:36] Etienne: very sad that firefighters are not on the list

[00:10:38] Jane: we're just gonna say that it is. But I do understand what it's like when people are reinventing themselves and when you've known someone their whole life and now, or just in a different context, you know.

[00:10:48] Jane: And like your husband at the time is seeing you as like, "Okay, this is my wife and I've seen her be like all kinds of fun and erratic and hilarious, smart, but like, am I going to take her advice on a leg?" I'm like, "Well, you should because now she's a freaking nurse." But

[00:11:04] Heidi: mm-hmm

[00:11:05] Jane: you know, I do remember, my husband went to school for psychology, and that was his degree. had a degree in psych with a double minor in art and theology.

[00:11:14] Etienne: Wow

[00:11:15] Jane: It doesn't use, he doesn't use any of these things like in a re- well, that's not true. Like he uses them in how he interacts with people, actually 100%.

[00:11:22] Heidi: in life

[00:11:24] Jane: he was in sales because he didn't wanna go to school to continue on to get a master's in psychology so that he could become a therapist 'cause he thought he actually wanted to be maybe a child therapist, and then he thought, "Wow, I'm gonna be seeing kids in a...

[00:11:37] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:11:37] Jane: Who are in distress, and this sounds like it could be depressing." Also, he didn't really like school. And so he went into sales. was really good at it, but it wasn't rewarding. And I remember just hanging out at a park with him, and we were all in our mid-20s, our friend group at the time, and he was like, "I think I just need to change, and I wanna either be a priest, a truck driver, or a helicopter pilot. And we were all like, "Wow, those are very different things."

[00:12:05] Heidi: yeah

[00:12:05] Jane: And at the time I was, you know, an English teacher and I'd been an English teacher for a few years at that point. And I do remember thinking like, "Wow, this guy is really hot and if he was a priest it'd be such a waste." And now he's my husband so it's all funny.

[00:12:17] Jane: But I just remember when he became a helicopter pilot and he was training, it's similar Etty what you're saying like that your husband's looking at you like, "I'm not taking your advice about what's wrong with my leg." And I'm like I've seen this guy like, my husband did some crazy shit when we were younger and now he's like, "You wanna get this helicopter with me?"

[00:12:34] Jane: And I'm like, "I don't think so." Like like, I'm like, "Didn't you like jump off your roof into a pool and you thought that this was a good idea and now you're like, 'Yeah, let's get in.'" You know? And uh,

[00:12:45] Etienne: Uh

[00:12:45] Jane: but I did get in because I, at that point it was too late and I was blinded by love. But now I trust him with my life and he's very serious and we all do stupid things when we're younger and then you grow into positions of trust because you earn it and, you know.

[00:12:59] Jane: But, I always respected even before we were together that he saw that he wasn't happy and that he needed to pivot. And he did it and he figured out that he wanted to be a helicopter pilot and that he wasn't gonna be able to do it through the military because they couldn't guarantee him that he would be a pilot.

[00:13:18] Jane: So he had to go the civilian route and wait tables while he was paying his way through flight school which was not cheap. And he was really committed to doing it and I think that that was like an inspiration to me where when I hit a wall 'cause I wanted to be an English teacher from like the time I was in high school.

[00:13:32] Jane: I was like, "I'm gonna be an English teacher. This is my mission in life." And I loved it. I loved it and I was really good at it

[00:13:39] Heidi: You were really good at it.

[00:13:40] Jane: saying so myself. Um,

[00:13:42] Heidi: You have students that, that reach out to you all the time, so

[00:13:45] Jane: I do. I still have, I've had the same AOL email address since 1995 'cause I told my students that I would always keep it in case they wanted to get in touch with me, and some of them do.

[00:13:53] Jane: They come out of the woodwork. It's really honestly one of the privileges of my life is that sometimes these people reach out and just say, "Just wanted to thank you," or like, "If you ever wonder what happened to me, like I'm now a..." Like one of them is like a neurosurgeon at NYU, and I'm like, "Holy

[00:14:07] Etienne: Oh, wow

[00:14:08] Heidi: That's amazing

[00:14:10] Jane: So speaking of trusting people, it's like, oh wow, I mean, this kid, he was hilarious in high school. He's gonna operate on my brain? Oh my goodness. But he went to NYU, graduated. This is what he does now. But I definitely hit a wall after I had my daughter, and I stayed at home for a few years, and I was tutoring, and I still found that rewarding.

[00:14:29] Jane: But then I went back into the classroom, and I was just very quickly discovered that

[00:14:34] Jane: I no longer was really feeling it. Like, I had some students that I really connected with and that I liked. A lot of it had to do with the fact that it was junior high, where I had spent the rest of my career in high school.

[00:14:43] Jane: But it was the job that was open, and it was right by my house, and it was right next to my daughter's elementary school, and it was just a matter of convenience and the position that was open where I wouldn't have a long commute and I'd be able to still be there for my family. So, you do a lot of things at different stages in your life career-wise for different reasons.

[00:14:59] Jane: So I did it, but it was slowly making me feel like I was dying inside. I was like, "I can't continue to do this." And at the time, Heidi and I were writing a funny book together about true stories of bodily malfunctions, and she was working on screenplays, I was writing a memoir. And then, I got a book deal and I was like, maybe I just wanna do the writing thing, and it was a leap of faith, and it didn't pay the bills. And then I was like, "Mah, gotta do something else

[00:15:27] Etienne: womp.

[00:15:28] Jane: I know. It was, like, big time. Like, womp, womp. And I got a job in corporate America, doing ghostwriting for executives. And, it paid okay at first, and then it paid very well. Like, I just kept getting promoted and now, at the time of this recording, it's almost 10 years that I've been doing this, and I...

[00:15:50] Etienne: that long?

[00:15:50] Jane: It really has. And I have more than doubled my salary, and they pay bonuses and that type of thing. But now I've reached the end of this journey where it's no longer fulfilling for me, so, looking for other things. We're obviously podcasting. I have a novel that I'm shopping around.

[00:16:09] Jane: I think that you just have to sometimes keep the lights on for your family, but you also need to try to thread the needle of what am I good at, and where is the intersection of what I'm good at, what aligns with my values? What is the market willing to pay in terms of the talents that I bring to the table?

[00:16:27] Jane: And, the best possible case scenario is you find something that has all of that. But it's hard to do, and you just have to keep trying until you find the right fit. And then sometimes what can be the right fit for you at a given moment in time, like a couple years down the road, is no longer a fit, and then it's scary to leave when you're locked in.

[00:16:46] Jane: And, I've used this phrase many times recently with both Etty and Heidi in conversations about where I am in my career, 'cause I'm in the middle of pivoting again. And there's a phenomenon called the

[00:16:57] Jane: golden handcuffs, where you're being paid really well, so you're afraid to leave, and you feel like a very privileged first world bitch looking around going like, "Oh, woe is me. I'm not happy anymore." And people are just like, "What are you talking about? People would kill to have the job that you have right now." And I was like, "I get it, and I am grateful, and I'm grateful for all that I've learned in the job that I have." I've upskilled. I've learned all kinds of crazy AI tools and interview skills, and I have a brand of moxie that I definitely did not have when I started this job at all.

[00:17:28] Jane: And it's given me a lot of confidence and sharpened some research skills and some other things that I was good at before, but now I can do in a different way. But now I'm ready to then take all of these lessons and then apply it back to what I am truly passionate about and say, "Thank you so much for the lessons, and now I'm ready to move on."

[00:17:47] Jane: And so it just comes down to resume building and working my network and trying to figure out what that next chapter looks like. So if anybody's listening to this right now, and I'm 52, so this isn't like, "Oh yeah, you know, your whole life is ahead of you." I'm like, I am at the midway point, God willing, and probably a little past the midway point.

[00:18:06] Etienne: Nope, you're gonna live to be 104, Jane

[00:18:09] Jane: I don't know. You never... I don't know. I have a lot of my grandparents and great-grandparents lived into their late 90s, so, you never know. But I'm definitely, I want to be near the end of, like, I have to part of my career. So I'm just planning the next act, and it is really kind of scary but also exciting, and just don't be afraid to put yourself out there in a different way because staying in a job that you're unhappy in really, really sucks, and you have to just try to take proactive steps to figure out what you can do next and not just endure it. Because you spend entirely too much time at work

[00:18:46] Etienne: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:46] Jane: in your life, the majority of us, to be miserable in that time that you're spending, you know? So, that's where I'm at. I'm like no longer going to sacrifice my mental health on the altar of corporate America. Like, fuck that noise.

[00:19:00] Jane: I'm ready to spend more... I am ready to spend more time doing more of the things that I love while still keeping the lights on, and I totally believe that it's possible.

[00:19:10] Etienne: Well, actually, you know what I just thought of while you were talking, that I wish I had looked up beforehand but it didn't even occur to me is I wonder how many people, not necessarily golden handcuffs, but maybe they can't find another job so they have to stay in the job that they're at that they don't love.

[00:19:24] Etienne: So do they have to go on like antidepressants? Like how many people are going on antidepressants because they have to stay at a job they fucking don't love, you know? I bet that's totally a thing

[00:19:35] Heidi: yeah, and with our system of healthcare tied to your job, so many people stay just for the healthcare too. So yeah, it's ridiculous. The way our system is set up is, yeah, it's for misery.

[00:19:50] Etienne: Yeah. I mean, I look at healthcare as it should be a right, not a privilege, and it should definitely not be tied to our jobs. Nobody can be a whole human being without having at least the basic healthcare that we all need. At least that's how I think, especially with how unhealthy the world is, but especially America with diabetes, hypertension, overweight.

[00:20:11] Etienne: You know, like all of these things just add up to your healthspan's gonna be shorter, your lifespan's gonna be shorter. Um, you know, uh, it just...

[00:20:20] Heidi: Everybody's miserable

[00:20:22] Etienne: Yeah, you don't get a kind of universal healthcare until we hit, what? is it 60 freaking five? Is that when we can get Medicare?

[00:20:30] Heidi: it's not even, it doesn't count either

[00:20:33] Etienne: mean, you can technically retire with government benefits that you've accrued before you can get healthcare that's through the government, and that's bullshit. Like, I'm not gonna be working till I'm 65. I'm telling you that right fucking now. Um, so I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to pay for my healthcare out of pocket.

[00:20:53] Etienne: I'm gonna have to get catastrophic healthcare because that shit is expensive, especially as you get older. Um, so just in case I get cancer, God forbid, or get into a serious car accident, end up being like... The first unit I ever worked on was taking care of patients who had survived car accidents, who were not wearing their seat belts, which most people die.

[00:21:13] Etienne: These did not, these people that I took care of. So, they were all on ventilators with trachs and feeding tubes and things coming out all over the place, and you had to turn them every two hours. Their minds were fucked from their accident, but they would come around. So it was always a positive story.

[00:21:30] Etienne: Some were partially paralyzed, some were completely paralyzed. But, yeah, like, yeah, sorry, I got on that really quickly. I'm just gonna go off on that now. But that was a job that I hated. I hated that unit. I found another job on another unit within the same healthcare system and I actually was held hostage by my manager.

[00:21:50] Etienne: So I'd gotten the job when I'd hit my year mark, or that's when I started applying, was when I hit my year mark, 'cause I'm like, "I'm not changing nursing jobs until I've had a year on one unit." So as soon as I hit the year, I started looking and got this other job and, I mean, it still takes a while for that stuff to happen.

[00:22:08] Etienne: But yeah, she held me hostage, my manager on the first unit, so I couldn't go to the new unit for like six weeks. I'd had the fucking job and she held me for six weeks, and I hated that job. I hated that job so much because I was so busy that I wouldn't go to the bathroom sometimes for 12 hours. I definitely wouldn't eat for 12 hours.

[00:22:30] Etienne: I would not get to, to chart till the end of my fucking shift. So I would come home sometimes and my husband at the time found me once sleeping on the kitchen floor because I got inside the house, but I was so tired that I couldn't... I just laid down on the floor.

[00:22:48] Heidi: Oh my

[00:22:48] Etienne: I just went to sleep, and he found me there, and I was like... he's like, "Oh my God, let me get you into bed." And I'm like, "I can't work here anymore." Like, it was just so bad. So yeah, that's how bad, like... And that was before COVID, so just imagine what it was like for people during COVID. I mostly did not work during the bad part of COVID times.

[00:23:08] Etienne: But yeah, that shit can be bad for nurses no matter what time of, the world is happening. And it was really bad for me, and this was before computers mostly. Like, I literally started on this unit before they had computers for really anything. So yes, everything is computerized now, but it wasn't then.

[00:23:25] Etienne: This was 2008 to 2009 or partway through 2009, and that shit... Yeah, I had to fucking fax doctor orders to the pharmacy. You had to see if there were flags up outside the room for where they used to keep the patient charts. So we were in charge of everything back then. It was so bad. Yeah. So now, it's much, much better, but it was way worse back then.

[00:23:48] Etienne: I can't even begin to tell you how bad it was, but that's a good example, finding me asleep on the kitchen floor.

[00:23:54] Heidi: Mm.

[00:23:55] Etienne: Yeah. So wait, Heidi, are you gonna be changing careers soon or having to get a career, right? Like, some kind of a paying gig?

[00:24:02] Heidi: Yeah, I'm

[00:24:03] Heidi: thinking about going back to grad school actually. So

[00:24:06] Etienne: Okay. But that's not gonna pay you money. Are you planning just to, like, live on loans? Or what do you think's gonna happen there?

[00:24:11] Heidi: well, I got a VA disability so I can get by. Um

[00:24:16] Etienne: can just live off that? Like that covers your bills? I mean, that's great if it

[00:24:19] Heidi: No, it's, it's not gonna cover everything, so yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna have to figure some stuff out. But, when I first started going to school or college in the Air Force actually, I started taking courses while I was in the Air Force, and the very first course I wanted to take was psychology, and I loved it.

[00:24:39] Heidi: But the professor was like, "No, get out, get out of this field. There's no money here," blah, blah, blah. So I did, I pivot- you know, I was like, "Okay, I guess I'm not gonna go into psychology." And I wish I had stuck with it 'cause I'd be a therapist right now, you know? But I'd be a therapist that could write on the side and, you know.

[00:24:58] Etienne: Yeah. 

[00:24:59] Jane: And there's a therapist shortage

[00:25:01] Etienne: Yeah, there is. Like everybody needs, I, I feel like everybody needs a therapist.

[00:25:06] Heidi: Everybody does, yeah. So instead I got a journalism degree.

[00:25:12] Etienne: Oh gosh. Did

[00:25:13] Heidi: And yeah, that's going away. 

[00:25:15] Etienne: So you wanna go back to grad school for psychology so that you can become a therapist? That's what you're saying?

[00:25:20] Heidi: Well, grad school would be for therapy. So yeah. I wouldn't get a psychology degree or anything,

[00:25:27] Etienne: Okay. I don't know how it works. That's why I was... I literally

[00:25:30] Heidi: yeah. It's just a two-year, yeah.

[00:25:32] Etienne: Oh, nice. But then how many clinical hours do you have to do before you can actually, like, I don't even know, is there like an exam? I don't know how you actually become like a licensed therapist. I'm assuming there's some kind of exam

[00:25:42] Heidi: I have a friend in grad school to become a therapist, and he's starting with a clinic and is gonna be observed while taking patients.

[00:25:51] Etienne: Oh, nice. 

[00:25:52] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah, and eventually a lot of those clinics will hire you after you've done your practicum.

[00:25:59] Etienne: Nice. 

[00:26:00] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. So I'm thinking about doing that, but I also have the energy healing that I can get into. Yeah, I'm just, Yeah, trying to figure myself out.

[00:26:11] Etienne: I honestly think that you could especially, I hate to bring this up, but you did a reiki healing on me, and you did one on for me and Angus. And actually, Angus has kissed me more times since you've done that than he has before combined. He actually just kissed me again today.

[00:26:31] Etienne: I think he's been kissing me like once a week now, actually. I get like a kiss ... It's like he's like the worst husband ever, basically. He gives me a once a week kiss.

[00:26:40] Heidi: Oh my goodness,

[00:26:40] Etienne: But I'll take it because he didn't even bond with me before. So I think that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to make him bond with me, and I think it worked.

[00:26:49] Etienne: And besides, I was forcing him to bond with me, like and taking care of him in every way. But, yeah, and you did the romantic, trying to get the romantic energy for me, so that I would find ... I mean, I'm not trying to find one person, but I've found multiples of people who, who are interested in the way that I want them to be interested in me.

[00:27:10] Etienne: So I do think that you could definitely start a business, doing the reiki for people, uh-huh, and do that while you're going to grad school

[00:27:18] Jane: and you're certified to do reiki on animals

[00:27:21] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah

[00:27:24] Etienne: I think you just need to create a website and start putting your... Yeah, make business cards and 

[00:27:28] Heidi: Yeah, I mean LLC, all that, yeah. And just start doing it. I know

[00:27:33] Etienne: I mean, creating an LLC is not hard. That's one of the things that the last places I worked at as a legal assistant or paralegal was at a tax attorney office, and I basically created LLCs most every single day when I was doing that. So it's really not a hard process at all. You could do it super, super cheap.

[00:27:50] Heidi: Okay

[00:27:50] Jane: I set up one for my writing, I just had to register with the government office. I think I went on the Chamber of Commerce and just kind of looked, read around of how do you do it, and it was very easy to set up. You pay a fee, and then you just have it, and it was really easy. I think the entrepreneurial spirit might suit you pretty well there, Heidi, 'cause you just know... Well, you have

[00:28:10] Heidi: After the military, I just was like, "I don't wanna work for people." I don't. I tried. I worked at Farm Bureau in the filing department after I got out for a hot second. I mean, my back was going out all the time on me back then. It's a little bit better now, but I still have to be really careful. Like, I can't... there's no way I could do a service industry job with my back.

[00:28:32] Etienne: Yeah

[00:28:33] Heidi: So, I can't stand for eight hours or nine hours, however long.

[00:28:37] Etienne: Mm-mm.

[00:28:37] Heidi: my back would be completely out by the end of the first shift. So, yeah. And even sitting too long can exasperate, exasperate it

[00:28:46] Etienne: That is what I hear most often than not for people who have back issues. It's like you can't stand or sit for too long. It's basically you have to have the option of like, do whatever my back is telling me I need to be

[00:28:56] Heidi: Exactly. Since leaving the military with a bad back basically, I thought writing and trying to get writing going and yeah. So I think therapy. Being a therapist I think would be the go 'cause you're in your own office, you're sitting and you're standing and yeah. 

[00:29:16] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:29:16] Heidi: So

[00:29:17] Heidi: And we need more therapists, and I've been grateful for the therapists that have helped me

[00:29:22] Etienne: Yes. I have a therapy appointment tomorrow actually I do. It's my second one in like two weeks or whatever. But yeah, just 'cause 

[00:29:35] Etienne: I'm experiencing burnout at work myself again. I feel like this happens to me every three years as a nurse, that I have really been-- and it's exactly three years that I've been nursing again, and here I am experiencing burnout again.

[00:29:47] Etienne: I don't think this is a coincidence or something that happens. And even though I do so much self-care, it doesn't matter. There's just, I, I don't know. I don't know if it's just me or if... I mean, we all know that nurses have a bad burnout problem. If you guys have watched "The Pit," I'm sure everybody, not everybody, but I'm sure a lot of people who are listening to this episode, they've seen "The Pit."

[00:30:08] Etienne: It's very, very popular on HBO Max. But you can tell the people who have been at that job a long time on that show, just any medical show, you can see that they're like, "I do care about my patients. I care about my coworkers," but you know what? There's just some times where it feels like I would just rather not have to wake up some days because that seems easier than having to go to my job, you know? And you don't wanna feel that way, and I'm sure that's what they're trying to portray on there. Like, the main character on the show, you can tell he's got kind of a suicidal, like, outlook on life, you know? And I think it's from putting yourself out there so much and taking care of others and feeling like, "Well, who the fuck takes care of me?"

[00:30:48] Etienne: You know? Uh, technically nobody, just me. So, like, that's rough. But sometimes you gotta do what's right for you so that your mental health is taken care of. And I mean, that's exactly what Jane said at the beginning of this episode. You have to... Don't stay. Do not stay at a job that is killing you inside.

[00:31:11] Etienne: And I, I agree that you should have another job before you leave the old job because things are too iffy out there, and it's too hard to get a new job. So, I mean, not as a nurse. Sorry, I am privileged that there is such a shortage. So if you are in a field where there's a shortage, you're safe. You could probably quit a job and get a new one within enough time where you can just wing it.

[00:31:32] Etienne: But the rest of the world, no, you probably have to do the whole, "I'm gonna have to suffer here a little bit longer until I get the next job." And it's kind of like those people who are serial monogamists, you know, where they can't leave the current boyfriend until we have the next boyfriend lined up.

[00:31:47] Jane: Oh my gosh, yes.

[00:31:48] Etienne: Sorry, I don't know why that just popped into my head,

[00:31:50] Jane: No, but that's a good point because it's like, you know, you need the safety net of like, I will not be alone. This person's waiting in the wings. And it's like that with a job, you need the safety net of knowing. But statistically, it's much easier to get hired if you already have a job.

[00:32:05] Jane: And it's, I think, a good idea. And I do think that there's something very true about what you were saying, Etty, where you reach the three-year mark and you're just like hitting a wall. I think that that was just like your threshold and you needed a break. And sometimes the nature of your job isn't always such that you can raise your hand and be like, "Hey, I just need like a couple of months where nobody needs me and if, can I just do that?"

[00:32:29] Jane: Sometimes you could take a leave of absence, but there's a lot of hurdles around it and like maybe it's paid leave, maybe it's not, maybe you have to go see like a bunch of doctors and confess to your deepest, darkest thoughts before they'll let you do this, like take FMLA or whatever, like the leave is that you're allowed.

[00:32:43] Jane: And I think it's really hard to get like the kind of support that you actually need, so sometimes it's easier to jump ship. You give yourself your own hiatus, and then you find a new thing. And I have-- When you said that, it really resonated with me because my entire teaching career, like I would stay for just two to four years at a given school, and I would leave because I was moving. My husband had a job somewhere else, or I was getting married and we were moving together, or... But sometimes it was just like, "Yep, I'm burnt out." You know? And sometimes I just needed a change of scenery. And even with the job that I'm in currently, even though I've been with this organization for almost 10 years within the organization, I have jumped teams every two to three years because I get to 

[00:33:28] Etienne: is a clear mark. There must be. Some must be something in turn

[00:33:31] Jane: I have this clock of like, okay, I feel comfortable enough where I'm learning and I have some stretch opportunities. I've proven myself. I've gained some trust, made some headway, maybe gotten a promotion. And then, what has happened to me in my current scenario is that then because I am a people pleaser and because I'm a workhorse, then I'm being taken advantage of, and then people are like, "Let's see how ragged we can run Jane before she totally cries

[00:33:59] Heidi: How much can we squeeze out of her?

[00:34:02] Jane: That is what's happening to me currently. But every role I've ever had, that's happened, and even when I was a teacher, they would just be like, "All right, well let's put like the extracurriculars and like the other, uh, curriculars." Not curriculars. I don't know what that was about. But, um, the extracurriculars and the just the bullshit that comes with some of the stuff.

[00:34:21] Jane: Like, listen, I loved some of my students, but the bullcrap that happens at the administration level and the testing and the data analysis and me getting in trouble for stupid things like leaving windows open during flu season so we wouldn't all just keep the germs in and get sick, and just getting written up because I used my own cleaner on the desks because the custodians weren't cleaning the desks and all my kids were getting sick, so I cleaned them myself and it wasn't authorized, and just like

[00:34:48] Etienne: oh my God, you got in trouble for that?

[00:34:50] Jane: Ah, Yep. Yep. I got in trouble for taking my kids outside even though I told them like where we were because a lot of kids can only learn in a kinetic way. It's not natural to sit at a desk all day for anybody, much less very hormonal teenagers who need to like get in... You know what I mean? Like we could walk and talk and take the books outside, sit in a circle and do Shakespeare

[00:35:12] Heidi: we're still learning.

[00:35:13] Jane: Yeah, in the courtyard in the wind I know they were. Some of them will still reach out to me and thank me for that, but that was something that I got in trouble for, like, more than one time at more than one school.

[00:35:25] Jane: And so just things like that, you just get burnt out for different reasons. And now I'm just burnt out because, they're just like, "Oh, let's, 

[00:35:33] Etienne: let's work ourselves to death, 

[00:35:34] Jane: on Saturday morning and see what that does to her." I'm

[00:35:37] Etienne: do what Saturday morning? What did you say?

[00:35:39] Jane: Send me a work ping on a Saturday morning. I'm like, "What? I'm like not doing anything for you today."

[00:35:45] Jane: I'm like, "I'm allowed to have a weekend." Like what in the actual... So 

[00:35:48] Etienne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:49] Jane: kind of usury happens and especially like right now as of this recording, unemployment is kinda creeping up a little bit in different sectors. Like it's uneven. Like if you're Etty and you're a nurse, you're solid.

[00:36:01] Jane: My husband is a medevac pilot, like there's such a shortage, so he's solid. There's some industries where they're begging for people to do these jobs, and then there's others where we're like a dime a dozen and they could just be like, "Well, AI can do your job, so you know, you should be happy that you're here." And I it's like they just

[00:36:18] Etienne: Damn it. That's crazy

[00:36:21] Jane: Yeah. I mean, they don't say it in so many words, but it's in the ether. It's in the zeitgeist of just our cultural story right now where people are like, if you're a knowledge worker, you're like, "Ugh, AI's doing more and more of this job." And I see that happening in my organization.

[00:36:36] Jane: People leave, they don't backfill. They're like, "You could just do more work 'cause you have AI helping you." I'm like, "Ah." So it's very real in a lot of sectors right now and people feeling pressure. But I'm, I feel like

[00:36:49] Heidi: I saw something just today about AI that the majority of companies that did the AI layoffs and really just depended on AI regret it big time and were quietly rehiring everybody that they had fired. So, I don't know. I 

[00:37:06] Heidi: think AI is gonna be a bust.

[00:37:08] Jane: That, I mean, that is happening some places

[00:37:10] Heidi: the promise

[00:37:11] Jane: And it

[00:37:12] Etienne: not be showing the promise right now, but I feel like it will in the future. So I think it is something to worry about future-wise, you know?

[00:37:18] Heidi: Possibly. I don't know. 

[00:37:20] Jane: I think that 

[00:37:20] Heidi: we're sick of the data centers.

[00:37:22] Etienne: Well, 

[00:37:23] Heidi: they're, poisoning our 

[00:37:24] Etienne: They are, but that's gonna keep happening, you know that. But, think about the people who are using AI as like their boyfriends or their girlfriends. And it's like if they're going that far, if people are actually using AI in that capacity, then you can see in the future it probably will end up being something that is going to probably take over a large portion of jobs where you probably don't need a real person and their real brain to do things, unfortunately.

[00:37:49] Etienne: You know? And even my job, I totally agree that like eventually they'll want, they'll want to... When there's robots that can do nurse things with their hands, and they put the AI fucking like brain in that thing, the computer, the hospitals are gonna be so happy to get rid of live human nurses, I'm telling you.

[00:38:06] Etienne: But, yeah, I'll be long gone. So I, I, I'm, I feel bad, but at the same time it's like, fuck, it's gonna be weird. Or maybe you'll go to special hospitals where you have human nurses and you pay more money. I don't know. Like, what is gonna happen? I don't know. But I don't think it's a bust. I think thinking that AI's not gonna take over the world, I mean, I do think it will eventually, and I think it'll be here sooner than we think. I mean, look at where we were 100 years ago.

[00:38:33] Heidi: Mm-hmm. I don't think it's gonna look the way everybody was thinking it's gonna look.

[00:38:38] Jane: No, and it's not happening-- I mean, you're right, Heidi, that there's a lot of companies right now who are not getting the ROI on their investments 'cause they thought that they were going to see that trajectory happen a lot more quickly. So what really is happening is that, and this is just what I've observed in various sectors that I write about or that I work in currently, that you can get by with less workers using AI to help them 'cause it amplifies your impact and you can do more with less.

[00:39:02] Jane: You can't have it do things autonomously without a human in the loop, like, looking at it with the oversight. So anybody who is out there looking for a job, whatever you do, you should look for a way... You should do two things, and these are gonna sound like contradictory points of advice. But you should look for a way that you can use AI to amplify your impact in whatever it is that you're currently doing. 

[00:39:28] Jane: Because even... So Heidi, even for you, right? You wanna start maybe a website and be, like, a Reiki practitioner and as part of one of your side hustles while you're putting yourself through school or whatever it is that your next steps are.

[00:39:39] Jane: You can look at AI as a way to help you conduct a marketing plan, right? And do the baseline research to get things done and give you some ideas, and use it as a brainstorming partner and help you plan out content calendars 'cause you'll put blogs out on your website about like, "I'm Reiki practitioner XYZ in this area in Iowa."

[00:39:56] Jane: And you could have that partner that you would've had to pay for, like, that kind of consultant. And so that you will then have a leg up on somebody else who's just kind of like putting it out into the ether with a business card like at a couple of yoga studios of like, "I do Reiki." You'll have a leg up in using AI no matter what it is that you do, whether you're a consultant, whether you're a Reiki practitioner. 

[00:40:16] Heidi: great assistant for sure.

[00:40:18] Jane: Uh, yeah, 100%. And then the other point of advice is that then you wanna double down on just being an empathetic human human. I mean, just, like, be as human as humanly possible because it's the only thing that then AI cannot replace.

[00:40:35] Jane: It can't replace human touch. It can't replace empathy. It can't replace eye contact and real conversation and making somebody feel heard and loved. That chatbot that's talking to you is just a simulacrum of, it's just a parrot. It's just a parrot that learned a bunch of words and it can predict the next words. It can sound really, really convincing, but it doesn't have a soul and it doesn't have lived experience, and everything it's doing is just guessing the next word at this point. 

[00:41:02] Heidi: It's never fallen in love. It's never had its heart broken. Yeah. Does it have the fear of death? 

[00:41:07] Etienne: Or maybe it could die, but yeah, not, not really, really. If you've never been alive, you can't actually die, so I don't know.

[00:41:15] Jane: You know, it's just gonna be like some code replicated somewhere else. It's just so bizarre, but that's another episode I think. But I feel like as far as the job front goes though, that AI is definitely a part of the equation, and then doubling down on whatever it is that makes you uniquely a creative thinking human being that's breathing and living on the planet right now. Just do both of those things and you'll just have a leg up on losing a job that you hate and finding a job that you love.

[00:41:44] Heidi: And that's our show. You've been listening to The Women Are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com. And of course, you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.