Why Older Women Are Dating Younger Men—and Loving It

Is age really just a number when it comes to dating—or might a big age gap actually make for a better relationship?

In this candid and decidedly NSFW episode of The Women Are Plotting, Etienne Rose Olivier, Heidi Willis, and Jane Gari dive into the complicated, sometimes controversial, and often very entertaining world of older women dating younger men.

The conversation begins with research suggesting that women partnered with younger men can experience surprisingly high levels of relationship satisfaction. From there, Etienne and Heidi draw on their own dating and relationship experiences to explore why younger men have become increasingly appealing—and why dating men their own age hasn't always delivered what they were looking for.

The women get into the differences they've noticed across generations when it comes to sex, communication, consent, emotional intelligence, gender roles, open-mindedness, and expectations in relationships. They also discuss whether younger generations of men may have grown up with a more egalitarian view of women—and whether that translates into being better partners both inside and outside the bedroom.

Of course, age-gap dating comes with its own challenges, from wildly different cultural references and life stages to the sometimes questionable planning abilities of a 24-year-old.

With plenty of explicit stories, laugh-out-loud moments, and some surprisingly thoughtful observations about Gen X, relationships, female pleasure, and what women actually want at this stage of life, the women ask an important question: When you're finally confident enough to know exactly what you want, why should someone else's idea of an "appropriate" age stop you from finding it?

Referenced in this episode:  Kennethplay.com

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Etienne: I have joy and hope. I wanna have somebody with joy and hope. And even if I'm just having sex with you in this very casual relationship, I wanna have positivity. 

[00:00:07] Heidi: Yeah, same. Yeah, I feel like the younger generations, even though their future

[00:00:12] Etienne: I know their future is not as great as 

[00:00:14] Heidi: just talking about them not being able to afford houses, but they do seem more optimistic and happy and joyful and have a lot to talk about and yeah

[00:00:22] Etienne: especially when they're with us though, because they know we're not sitting here judging them. Talk about whatever the fuck you want. You can't... I've done a lot. I've done some things I'm not proud of, but I am not gonna judge you. You can talk about whatever the fuck you want. 

[00:00:34] Jane: You just said something really poignant there because I think that a Gen X woman, who's had to fight for where she got to and is so comfortable in her own skin now, right? But also was raised without cancel culture in place. You're like this ultimate safe space of sex positivity, cultural awareness, the original cultural arc towards wokeness, right? 

[00:00:57] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari

[00:01:12] Etienne: On today's episode, 

[00:01:17] Etienne: we're gonna be talking about age gaps in dating and relationships. And my fun and/or interesting fact for today comes from a research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, Justin J. Lehmiller. I hope I'm saying his name correctly. In 2023, he did a study that shows despite lingering stigma, older women with younger male partners report the highest levels of relationship satisfaction and commitment, which is probably interesting for a lot of people.

[00:01:44] Etienne: Yeah. So I'm just gonna leave it there 'cause I have other stuff too, but I think that-- I just feel like I need to drop the mic on that one.

[00:01:51] Jane: Nice

[00:01:51] Etienne: Sorry, Jane. You-

[00:01:54] Jane: It's because Etty has theories about the satisfaction. I was taking an angle towards this as looking at remarriage, just because I've been happily married for many years now. And I have to do math in my head to be like, "How many years?" It's gonna be 23 years in a couple of weeks here.

[00:02:10] Jane: But together with the same person for 26 years. And I was just thinking about the age gap then in marriage, and what does that look like and what data could I find? But I saw a Pew Research Center study, that was recent, that found that remarried women are more likely than first-time married women to have a husband 10 or more years younger.

[00:02:33] Etienne: Nice.

[00:02:35] Jane: And I thought, "Huh." It's not as common as the other way around, but it's noticeable, and it just kinda supports the idea that once women have already done the traditional life script, which I feel it was relevant to both of you, that's why I thought this would be a fun fact.

[00:02:51] Jane: Because if you haven't listened to our podcast before, both Heidi and Etty have been married previously, and both of their husbands were within like a couple of years of their own age. And that's the most common. I actually looked at that, and that is still the most common, to have just a two-year age gap is act- 2.2 was the

[00:03:09] Etienne: 2.2. Okay

[00:03:10] Jane: But then second time around, women are much more likely than first-time married women to have a husband 10 years or more younger. 

[00:03:21] Etienne: That's fantastic. I love

[00:03:23] Jane: over to you, Heidi.

[00:03:24] Etienne: Nice.

[00:03:25] Heidi: Well, I found a Ipsos survey of Americans. So a sizable portion of American adults have engaged in age gap dating. Nearly 4 in 10 have previously dated someone with an age difference of 10 plus years. And then many single Americans are open to age gap dating, 57% saying they would be open to dating someone 10 plus years or older than them.

[00:03:48] Heidi: And then 49% saying they would be open to dating someone 10 plus years younger than them. So there's a lot of people out there who are open to it, so. Yes.

[00:04:01] Etienne: Yeah

[00:04:01] Jane: You're like, "Bring, send them

[00:04:02] Heidi: I'm going younger after my recent experiences.

[00:04:06] Etienne: Oh, well, yeah. Why don't you just do a quick summary of why was 

[00:04:11] Heidi: Oh, God 

[00:04:12] Etienne: such a bad experience, Heidi, that you now want to only go younger?

[00:04:18] Heidi: Just recent experiences with people my own age have been terrible. Like, not having an orgasm when this pers- me, like, drop of a hat I can have an orgasm 

[00:04:32] Etienne: Yeah, I feel like Heidi if there's like a big enough breeze 

[00:04:34] Heidi: Exactly. 

[00:04:36] Etienne: have an orgasm. So if 

[00:04:39] Heidi: doesn't take 

[00:04:40] Etienne: if a guy can't make you come, Heidi, seriously, he needs to get fucking booted out of your house. Or that giant hook that they had in Vaudeville, just like yank him 

[00:04:48] Jane: my God 

[00:04:49] Etienne: Off the bed. He should be yanked off the bed. 

[00:04:52] Heidi: Exactly. 

[00:04:54] Jane: Oh, 

[00:04:55] Heidi: so it's very frustrating when it doesn't happen and I'm just like, "What?"

[00:04:59] Etienne: Oof 

[00:05:00] Heidi: Yeah. So yeah. 'Cause the younger ones, like, they got it going on and they know what they're doing and they can stay functioning.

[00:05:08] Etienne: I thought you were gonna say stick. Like, you can stick it, like 

[00:05:12] Jane: I mean that too 

[00:05:14] Heidi: That, yeah. And so, yeah, I'm gonna switch my ages in the dating apps, I think, and just, yeah 

[00:05:21] Jane: And, we can keep circling back to the subject of actual sex. But when you're talking about dating though, when you had-- So the guy who was terrible in bed, recent experience, were you though on the date portion of the interaction, were you on like a good wavelength with each other? Were you vibing?

[00:05:38] Heidi: Pretty much.

[00:05:40] Etienne: Hmm. 

[00:05:41] Heidi: Yeah. Like we're, I 

[00:05:42] Etienne: I hear some 

[00:05:43] Heidi: gone, I wouldn't have kept going dating him if, there wasn't some kind of intellectual thing going on.

[00:05:50] Etienne: So there was a good enough connection that if he happened to be average in bed and he made you have an orgasm, you would've continued dating him?

[00:05:58] Heidi: Hmm.

[00:05:58] Etienne: Or does he have to be

[00:06:00] Heidi: Maybe, yeah. I mean, I don't know. There was just, there was a lot. That was just, like, the cherry on top. Like no. You're, you're... No. Mm-mm.

[00:06:10] Etienne: Straw? When he was bad in bed, that was the fucking last straw. No more chances after this. Chance is gone.

[00:06:16] Heidi: That, 

[00:06:16] Etienne: Oh, no. Yeah But wait, Heidi, you said that there was a... What was the age difference between you and your ex-husband? Didn't you say it was, it was 

[00:06:23] Heidi: Um, just a year 

[00:06:24] Etienne: Oh, it was only a year. I don't know why I thought it was a lot. Okay.

[00:06:27] Heidi: Mm-mm. Nope, just a year.

[00:06:28] Etienne: yeah, I mean, I

[00:06:29] Etienne: have, 

[00:06:29] Heidi: year younger 

[00:06:30] Etienne: Yeah, my ex-husband was three years younger than me, almost to the day, 'cause his birthday was the day before mine. So literally one day of the year, he was two years younger. Then the next day is back to three.

[00:06:42] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:06:44] Etienne: But, yeah, my ex-boyfriend was 13 years younger than me.

[00:06:48] Etienne: So yeah, I have quite the experience of dating somebody, like actually having a relationship. And you know what's really funny about that? I think from listening to the podcast, people probably figure out that obviously sex is important to me, and this is what I was doing when I first could after my marriage.

[00:07:07] Etienne: I was having sex. I wasn't even interested in having a boyfriend. It was right around the two-year mark of my ex-husband and that relationship ending, and me with two years of sex that I finally was like, "Okay, I'm done with just having sex." Like, I mean, I had... They would hang out with me and stuff, but it wasn't like deep conversations.

[00:07:27] Etienne: They were a lot younger than the ones that I'm dating now. Not that they're that much older, technically, the ones I'm dating now. So like, the average age probably directly post-divorce was probably between like 28 and 32, but the majority of them are probably in their 20s still.

[00:07:43] Etienne: So there was not a lot of conversation going on, even though we were technically closer in age than the ones that I'm dating now. So it wasn't fulfilling me. Like just having straight up sex for all that time, two years of the young men coming in and out, like it just...

[00:07:59] Etienne: Yeah. So I really was longing for a relationship when I met my ex-boyfriend, who was 32 when I met him, and I was 44, I think. Did I do that r- No, 45, I guess, 'cause we were 13 years. Yeah. He was good in bed and he was great conversation and obviously there were flaws that showed up over time.

[00:08:20] Etienne: We all have flaws. Nobody's perfect. But, Heidi sent us a New York Times podcast, and I didn't actually listen to the podcast. I read the transcript so I could read it faster than I could talk. It just was published like, look, what was it, April? Just a few months ago

[00:08:34] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:34] Etienne: Talking specifically about older women and younger men.

[00:08:37] Etienne: And they really were going on about, like, how they're trying to figure out why it's happening, 'cause I think none of them have specific experience with themselves in the situation, so they're just going by what they can ask others. And it sounds like... Don't do that to me. Sorry. No shit. Sorry. All right. They were talking about how they thought some of the dynamic might be that it's more equal in a way. Because when you have an older man and a... Or even the same age people, women and man, same age, the men seem to be still somewhat ahead. They're gonna be ahead no matter what, especially when they're the same age, because just men have an upper hand in so many things,

[00:09:24] Etienne: like money, and we have to be the ones to stay home and take care of... or not stay home, but we're the ones that have the babies, so we have the more responsibility with the kids and taking care of the house and the mental load and all of that. And they just haven't seemed to catch up yet to the fact that they have to contribute more when we're talking about people our same age.

[00:09:44] Etienne: But when we look at people who are younger, it seems more equal. So when you put men younger than women now, so the women are established in their careers.

[00:09:52] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:52] Etienne: The men are probably not that far into their careers. They're still starting out. But they know when they're with a woman who's older, they're no longer wanting children.

[00:10:02] Etienne: They might have children already, so they have to be, the younger men have to be okay with that. They also have to be okay with this person that they're having a relationship with who is not gonna have children with them, but maybe that's what they want. I think there's a lot going around of we can't afford children. We can't afford children with two young people. How are... You know? So it's easier to just not even think about it.

[00:10:23] Etienne: They were surmising in this New York Times podcast episode that the women might be somewhat getting involved because they wanna raise a man in a way to be the man that they've always wanted, who does more of the chores, takes care of more of the mental load, is doing the things that their husbands who are their same age as them didn't fucking probably do, you know?

[00:10:42] Etienne: So now we're raising these men to be... And I'm like, "I don't totally agree with that," but I was like, "Maybe." Because if we're talking about a man who's not making as much money as us, then, a good compromise is you definitely have to hold your own in the house. It cannot be I'm doing all this shit, you're making less money than me, and you're not doing hardly any chores around the house, you know?

[00:11:06] Etienne: There has to be some equality here, and that is a good way to like, make it equal. So, that's kinda what I thought in the beginning of my relationship. That the money was very, very much off. We were not on the same money level. But I believed that he was making up for it in a way. I knew going into it he did not have money.

[00:11:29] Etienne: I 100% knew that, or hardly any money. But I thought he has everything else. Like, he wants to help me with chores. He's giving me all the sex I want. I'm getting all the affection I want. Then that makes up for all of it. I don't care. Like, I have money. I don't need extra money. He just has to provide for his basic needs.

[00:11:46] Etienne: And anything extra I can pay for. So yeah. So when those things that I'm talking about he was making up for with, like the extra help around the house, the affection, the sex, when that started dwindling over time, that's when

[00:12:02] Heidi: it's really 

[00:12:02] Etienne: yeah, that's when 

[00:12:03] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:05] Etienne: you start to feel used in a way and feel, there's a whole other word I can't think of that I'm sure Jane can come up with right now. What is the word? You know there's a word. Not used, but, the inequality and the

[00:12:15] Jane: You just feel like what you're just taken advantage of? That the, the equity is just too

[00:12:20] Etienne: Yeah, taking advant- yeah, I really did feel like I was being taken advantage of, especially in the last few years. Especially during COVID when he lost his job and wasn't trying to get a new one. That was especially bad. So yeah. But yeah, that's why that had to end. It was literally like you go...

[00:12:34] Etienne: You're looking at this relationship and you're like, "what am I getting out of this? Like, I don't understand anymore. Like, I love you. You say you love me, but I'm not seeing it anymore." The actions are no longer equaling the words. The, the actions always have to equal the words, or the words mean nothing to me.

[00:12:50] Etienne: I'm sorry. They don't. I had a lot of growing up years where people would say, "I love you, I love you, I love you." But really, those words were coming from people when I was growing up who couldn't love me. Like, they didn't have the capability of loving me, and they didn't love themselves. So yeah, words don't mean shit, really. The words have to equal the actions. Yeah, I found out that my love language is not words of affirmation. 

[00:13:14] Jane: Yes. 

[00:13:16] Etienne: Acts of service and physical touch. Physical touch is first, and then acts of service. Sorry, guys. Like, you gotta... You can talk whatever you want, but you gotta follow it up with doing stuff for me and making me feel good.

[00:13:27] Etienne: But that doesn't mean because that relationship was technically unsuccessful because it had to end, that doesn't mean I'm going back to people my age. 

[00:13:36] Heidi: Yeah, no 

[00:13:38] Etienne: Not in a million years. I've so gotten used to men who are looking at women like people. 

[00:13:44] Etienne: That's what I want. I want people in my lives who look at people as human beings, not as whatever their sex is, you know?

[00:13:50] Etienne: And that you get with people who are younger. And I think the median age right now of people that I'm involved with, I'm just, I'm not dating any of them, but, I have these weird sort of sexual somewhat relationships with them. They're in their early 30s generally. So they're not technically that much older than the the ones I was dating before, but they are very mature, and I think the majority of them, I can say come from homes with very strong single moms that raised them, and sisters. So very, very strong female, like, role models. Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to come up with. 

[00:14:27] Etienne: Thank you so 

[00:14:28] Etienne: much

[00:14:28] Heidi: That's, that's 

[00:14:29] Jane: interesting because I think that's-- When you were talking about The New York Times articles, so it's not that you're really looking for somebody that you're, quote unquote, raising up to be a good man. You're just kind of saying like, "All right, well, if you're younger, you might be a little bit more malleable and a little bit more coachable."

[00:14:46] Jane: But the younger generation, like really young millennials and older, the eldest of the Gen Z generation have grown up with gender roles being presented in a much more fluid and egalitarian light. And so if you also had a female dominant caregiver in your life, like a single mom who's demonstrating those values, then even as a man, you're going to prioritize female pleasure, even if that wasn't something that your mom instilled in you.

[00:15:17] Jane: You're just saying like, "Okay, well, yeah," women their perspective matter. They're equal to me. I'm not gonna run all over this person. I'm not going to take advantage of them. I feel like some of the stuff that you've talked about with me offline, Etty, about different sexual encounters, there seemed to be a lot of language around consent that was very evolved that I would've been just beside myself with, just a mix of admiration and awe if like in my early 20s a man would've said some of the things that

[00:15:48] Etienne: Yeah, can you imagine?

[00:15:49] Jane: said to you. I would be like, "Wow. Yes." Or, just conversations like ahead of time of like, "What would you-- What, what turns you on, and what would you like?" Instead of just this kind of fumbling, DIY shit that was happening back when I was in the early '90s where it's like, I don't know, maybe she had a good time.

[00:16:06] Jane: I've, I did, you know. So I'm wondering if like, if that is when-- Like, so you guys have both lately expressed dissatisfaction at some of your Gen X

[00:16:16] Etienne: Oh, yes. Oh my 

[00:16:17] Jane: sexual encounters with 

[00:16:18] Heidi: And I had a great time with some 30-some-year-olds, 

[00:16:21] Jane: Right. So I'm just wondering if that carries over and then if like the Gen X ethos with many, many exceptions, but just generalities here that like if a Gen X male is going out into the market after having been in a long-term marriage, right?

[00:16:36] Jane: He's gonna maybe revert back to the ethos of when he's dating, like back in the '80s and '90s and that was not the best of time for prioritizing female pleasure. Like it was more of like, 

[00:16:48] Etienne: of times, it was the worst of times.

[00:16:49] Jane: it was, it was literally the best of times and the 

[00:16:52] Heidi: Worse the times. yeah. 

[00:16:53] Jane: great. Like orgasms the first time you're having heterosexual, heteronorm- normative penetrative sex with a dude, probably not gonna happen.

[00:17:02] Jane: Like you, like you're gonna have to like have this, this lot of awkward conversations that you have to like really just rally for. Like back

[00:17:09] Etienne: Oh my God, yes, 'cause you're so worried about hurting their pride and, "Oh my God, they're gonna not date me anymore." Like, Jesus Christ 

[00:17:15] Jane: Yes, am I worth anything?" You 

[00:17:17] Heidi: fake orgasms back in the 

[00:17:19] Etienne: Oh God, 

[00:17:19] Jane: And it, it's just, I think it's just different now. I think people have a much more emotionally intelligent language around any kind of difficult conversation, including like the awkwardness of sexual conversations and intimacy.

[00:17:32] Jane: I think that it's now, it's-- We have representation of those types of conversations in media now, in the stories that we read, in the content that we consume, and I think that unless a Gen X dude has, that's gotten into his algorithm, he might still be like, I don't know, watching some old school shit and just still operating under a manual that is way outdated.

[00:17:56] Heidi: outdated,

[00:17:57] Etienne: seriously faded. He can barely read it, but he's still determined.

[00:18:03] Jane: I mean, if, if they don't know like certain just anatomical... Is, I can't, why can't I say that word today? It's like I'm drunk. Anatomical. Yeah, that sounds weird.

[00:18:13] Etienne: It does 

[00:18:13] Jane: I feel like I'm high. Like, you say a word over and over again, it just sounds weird. Anatomical. Anyway, but if they don't have certain anatomy down pat at this point in life, like if you give a guy a diagram and he can't name some of the

[00:18:27] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:18:28] Etienne: need two parts on a w- like, I'm sorry, thr- sorry, three parts on a woman you need, right? You need the clit, the clitoris. You need the the vaginal opening, right? And the anus. You need three things. Those are the basics you need to have as a man.

[00:18:43] Etienne: You need to have that shit down. If you don't have that shit down, I'm sorry. You're, you, what the fuck is happening? H- how, have you been having sex? Like, has your partner even cared? Like, what has been happening in this, in these relationships before coming to you?

[00:18:59] Heidi: they're relying on old, lazy lovemaking, right?

[00:19:03] Etienne: I just get you wet and then I put it in and you're gonna come, right? 

[00:19:06] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. So they're using that, but they're also dealing with ED. And so, like it's a double whammy of awful

[00:19:13] Etienne: well, the way they should be dealing with ED is getting a pill, cause they're really not gonna figure it out otherwise. Yeah. 

[00:19:19] Jane: That involves Etty an awkward conversation with the doctor

[00:19:24] Etienne: well, or they can have awkward sex where they're trying to shove a wet noodle inside of a vagina, 'cause 

[00:19:30] Jane: And

[00:19:31] Etienne: yeah 

[00:19:31] Jane: I have known men that are so doctor averse that they would prefer to just have the awkward, like the, the awkward sex instead of the awkward conversation with the doctor. I think that's very 

[00:19:43] Heidi: if you're gonna have a wet noodle, learn how to please some other way,

[00:19:48] Etienne: And, for me to be

[00:19:51] Heidi: There's videos out there, there's, 

[00:19:52] Etienne: Oh, oh, I know now. 

[00:19:54] Heidi: there's ways of finding 

[00:19:55] Etienne: They need to go to kennethplay.com.

[00:19:58] Heidi: to report. 

[00:19:59] Jane: Oh, wow. Re- resources

[00:20:00] Heidi: is it? 

[00:20:01] Etienne: kennethplay.com, P-L-A-Y. Yes, I've just recently learned about him on another podcast, and I bought his, uh, what is... Oh, God. What is the name of his, his... He's got a sex program. Let me get the name of it because I cannot remember now. But, while I'm talking. But

[00:20:15] Heidi: Yeah

[00:20:16] Etienne: yeah, like they need to be able to... Well, besides that, I was gonna say the most important thing to me is... Oh, God. I've gotta find the name of it. I gotta like log in so I can tell you guys. I think it's Beyond Satisfaction Pro. That's what it's called. But you go to kennethplay.com and you can get the system, and there's just a bunch of videos to watch and learn how to become the best fucking lover in the world and in every...

[00:20:37] Etienne: Like, he's considered the world's best lover and sex hacker. Yeah. And he's got an

[00:20:42] Jane: How old is 

[00:20:43] Etienne: He looks like he's in his 30s. I actually don't know exactly how old he is. He might be older. He's Asian, so he could be in his 40s. I have no idea. Like they age so well.

[00:20:52] Etienne: But he talks about how he has an average size dick, so he did not feel confident sexually, and now he's like the guy, you know? Like he's considered the best lover in the world. But what I was gonna say, I can't wait till I watch all the videos 'cause I have plenty of guys who have average size penises that I have sex with and I definitely wanna...

[00:21:09] Etienne: There's one technique he shows where it's like doggy, but he's holding onto the wom- like she might be on her knees too, and he's holding onto her arms though while he's thrusting into her. So pulling her towards him as he's thrusting in, and I think it hits that deep spot that we can't get for ourselves.

[00:21:26] Etienne: It's way too far back up in there, you know? But with an average size penis, that would be perfect, you know? But what I was gonna say, and I hate to say this for all the people who I have sex with, I am technically not 100% all that into intercourse. I am more into all the oral, the fingers, like everything.

[00:21:46] Etienne: I will do everything else. That is more... Like that's my favorite parts of everything, and I don't just mean receiving. I give, like I... Give me something amazing and I will give you something amazing back, you know? I will give you like just as much enthusiasm as you will give to me. I'll probably give you more, unfortunately.

[00:22:02] Etienne: I would like, I would like my energy to be like equal, but it's not always equal. But the intercourse part is usually not the best part because there's only a few men that I've been with who have the best fit for me, for my vagina, you know? Like I'm not asking for anything crazy, but you have to be harder, you have to kinda know how to position your particular penis in a vagina.

[00:22:25] Etienne: Like, these are things you learn over time. Or you go to kennethplay.com and find out like, you know, I have an average sized penis, what the fuck do I do, you

[00:22:33] Heidi: Yeah, yeah 

[00:22:35] Etienne: Your man that you had the other night or however long ago it was, he needs to become, he doesn't need to have the best dick in the world.

[00:22:43] Etienne: He doesn't have to have it super hard. He can literally use all the toys. He can still make you feel amazing where you're like, "No, I have to see him again because he made me come so hard I thought I was gonna shoot up to the ceiling." You know? Like, that sort of... That's the kinda response you need to get, you know

[00:22:57] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:58] Jane: But that's like an attitudinal shift. And so I have a question that's not like sexual then if you guys are going-- Like if the younger men then have this different approach that's probably the result of the culture shift that happened alongside their upbringing and all of that, and their coming of age was very sex positive and female positive.

[00:23:15] Etienne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:16] Jane: So what about then like dating and the kinds of conversations that then you have before you're ever in the bedroom? Do you find that the gap causes other gaps? Like do you ever make a cultural reference and they're just like, "I have no idea who Bart Simpson is," or whatever?

[00:23:32] Jane: Well, that's not relevant 'cause The Simpsons is still happening. But like today, my daughter just got her hair cut and it's adorable. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you look just like Joan Jett." And she was just like, "Who?" You know? And I was just thinking about we were 

[00:23:44] Etienne: really young, yeah.

[00:23:45] Jane: Talk today, and I just thought, what if you guys said that? Would these people then look at you and be like, "Who is Joan Jett?" And then you would have a little bit of sad? Or no, it doesn't

[00:23:56] Etienne: I got used to that with Brian, so it doesn't phase me. But I think we're lucky that most of our cultural references come from the '90s, and the '90s are so popular that if we make '90s references, most of the time they will get it. And I don't even... yeah.

[00:24:10] Heidi: were kids back then too, 

[00:24:11] Etienne: Yeah, and I don't need to make references really. Like, I think-- I mean, it's fun when you know people are gonna get it, you know? But I think I got out of the habit of doing references because I work with people in their 20s. I'm dating people or, you know, having sex-ish relationships with people in their late 20s, early 30s. I'm used to being around young people most of the time, so, I just got out of the habit of like, just talk about current stuff, you know?

[00:24:35] Etienne: And literally there's so much conversation. I've-- That literally, like, the ones that I wanna see a lot, and I do spend a lot of time talking to them, not just having sex, it's because they have something to say. They are interested in the world. They're open-minded. They're creative.

[00:24:48] Etienne: They want to have joy in the world. This is a completely different person than our Gen X men who are divorced. I feel like the Gen X women, we've been working on ourselves. We've always been wanting to improve ourselves. That's our lot in life. They always kept saying we have to keep improving, right?

[00:25:04] Etienne: We always have to stay beautiful. We have to stay interesting. What have they said to the men in that regard? They didn't. So they make fucking money and just... 

[00:25:14] Jane: To their detriment as 

[00:25:15] Etienne: Yeah, no, I'm 

[00:25:15] Jane: men who, who are listening... Yeah. For sure 

[00:25:18] Etienne: That's what they... That's-- So we were told to keep improving ourselves, and they were just told, "Just make the money. It's fine." You know? Like, "Don't-- But don't cry." Like, "Don't cry," you know? Um, so, like, they didn't go to therapy. They they are not

[00:25:33] Heidi: They all need to go to 

[00:25:34] Etienne: Yeah, they don't know... because they haven't gone to therapy, they never dealt with their baggage. They're dragging their baggage around. They're dragging their past around.

[00:25:41] Etienne: It's their badge of honor in a way, and it's like, well, good luck finding somebody to wanna deal with that. I mean, maybe somebody older than them would want to date them. Maybe. They can go 10 years older than them. Maybe. But I think them too, they don't wanna go 10 years older than them, you know? So, I don't know. They don't have joy. I wanna be around people who have joy and hope

[00:26:01] Heidi: Me too. 

[00:26:02] Etienne: Because I have joy and hope. I wanna have somebody with joy and hope. And even if I'm just having sex with you in this very casual relationship, I wanna have positivity. 

[00:26:10] Heidi: Yeah, same. Yeah, I feel like the younger generations, even though their future

[00:26:16] Etienne: I know their future is not as great as 

[00:26:17] Heidi: just talking about, like, them not being able to afford houses, but they do seem more optimistic and happy and joyful and have a lot to talk about and yeah,

[00:26:27] Etienne: especially when they're with us though, because they know we're not sitting here judging them. Talk about whatever the fuck you want. You can't... I've done a lot. I've done some things I'm not proud of, but I am not gonna judge you. You can talk about whatever the fuck you want 

[00:26:38] Jane: You just said something really poignant there because I think that a Gen X woman, right, who's had to fight for where she got to and is now in perimenopause or menopause, is so comfortable in her own skin now, right? But also was raised without cancel culture in place yet, right? You're like this ultimate safe space of like sex positivity, cultural awareness, the original cultural arc towards wokeness, right?

[00:27:07] Jane: And then now, an emotional intelligence to match like where they are and open-minded to what they're gonna say. But then if they have this little bit of a off-color moment where we're just like, "Yeah, whatever." I got an uncle who says the most ridiculous shit ever.

[00:27:20] Jane: Like, what you have to bring to this conversation is not gonna phase me. I think that it's maybe a really good mix, and I'm wondering if then the counterpart and ooh, I'm gonna say like, please forgive me, audiences. It's gonna be like very general, broad strokes here. Like flip the script the other way around and have a Gen X man who's now dating a younger woman, same kind of age gap.

[00:27:43] Jane: He might be then gravitating more towards this new wave of women who are just like, "I just wanna be an Instagram influencer and maybe trad wife, not sure. Just whatever. I'm looking for a sugar daddy. Like, let's do this," you know? And, and he's just like, "Oh my God, yes." And she's just like, "Oh my God, yes. And he bought me this cute little bag and it's awesome." And I feel like, like I feel like I've, I see that happening. 

[00:28:08] Etienne: so different, right? 

[00:28:09] Jane: so different, but they both get to then live in these different parallel realities that are polar opposites that I feel are representative of different threads going through our culture right now.

[00:28:21] Jane: And I know that these are broad generalizations, folks. I know that there's definitely a spectrum of all

[00:28:26] Heidi: of Gen X women who are, gotta stick up their butts and

[00:28:29] Etienne: Oh, totally

[00:28:30] Jane: and the other way around. 

[00:28:31] Heidi: Yeah. Gen X men who are, like, open-minded and evolved and, yeah, doing the work and, 

[00:28:38] Jane: Yeah, I got, I

[00:28:38] Etienne: there are, but I feel like those men are outliers.

[00:28:42] Jane: They are. And, I know a lot of Gen X men who actually are in my circle who got divorced, went to therapy, did the work, they're doing it. And they are like, " I'm entitled to all my emotions." And they're very like, you know, 

[00:28:57] Etienne: Oh. Did he just figure that out? That's so sweet. 

[00:29:00] Jane: Yes, and who are just like, "Why was I not, why have I been holding this in? Like, I need to just breathe and feel lighter in my body." But I think that you are correct, Etty, that they are outliers, and I just hope that if there's some Gen X man listening to this right now who's just, like, saying like I- just, just, it's okay. You can let it out, man. I don't know. Watch some buddy film with like, and a guy loses his dog, and just,

[00:29:25] Etienne: I was totally thinking Old Yeller.

[00:29:27] Jane: Oh my God, yes 

[00:29:29] Heidi: it out and then get on the website that Etty

[00:29:33] Etienne: Kenneth, kennethplay.com. Kennethplay.com. I'll put it in the show notes for you guys.

[00:29:38] Heidi: Yes. 

[00:29:39] Etienne: Yeah, totally worth it. Totally worth it. I, I literally

[00:29:42] Jane: Public 

[00:29:43] Etienne: a guy... Yes, I literally got a guy, one of my regular guys that I've been seeing since almost the very beginning, and he has always wanted to make somebody squirt, and he was with somebody one time who was an easy squirter. She could maybe think about it and squirt. Like, I don't even think she had to touch herself. No, she did have to touch herself, but he s- he literally, he was like, "She could do it masturbating." I'm like, "Fuck, okay." So making her squirt was not an accomplishment for him. So he had been trying on me.

[00:30:10] Etienne: He tried multiple things. I was telling him, like, "Oh, somebody made me squirt this way," so we would try it and he couldn't do it. And then we'd try, "Oh, somebody made me squirt this way." He would try that. Nope, wouldn't work. Like, we literally couldn't, we couldn't get him to do it. Kenneth Play has got a free squirting video that's only six minutes

[00:30:25] Heidi: Ooh, 

[00:30:25] Etienne: So we watched that together twice. I mean, I'd watched it before, so I knew what he was gonna say. So there's two different ways he shows you how to try to do it. We tried the first way, did not work. We did the second way. He's like, "And this is the way you do it if this is her first time squirting."

[00:30:42] Etienne: And like, I'm like, "Well, let's try that way," you know? 'Cause it's not my first time squirting, but he couldn't get it. So, we did the second position. It worked. He was, he, he actually high-fived me. He was so proud of himself. He was like, "Oh my God, it's happening." Like, he was...

[00:31:01] Jane: That

[00:31:02] Etienne: thought I lived alone. 

[00:31:04] Jane: less sexual and more like team sport, but I'm still here for it. Like, that's, I'm, I'm happy for you both 

[00:31:11] Etienne: See? Like

[00:31:15] Heidi: Oh my God

[00:31:16] Etienne: yeah, I changed his life for the better. Now he, I he's on the Kenneth Play. He's like, I'm on board." 

[00:31:22] Heidi: the position?

[00:31:23] Etienne: On my knees, so I'm sitting up on my knees, kneeling basically on the bed. My hands are on his shoulders and he is leaning down and it's a specific way that he's supposed to be like cupping me. And, it's basically because of that position, he's only going like his arm... He's not using forearm strength. He's using upper back shoulder strength. So you can go forever like that. Like think how hard you can go, how fast you can go like this. I could go super hard and super fast and 

[00:31:51] Jane: But 

[00:31:51] Heidi: they do that with, when they're masturbating.

[00:31:54] Etienne: Right, exactly. So this is like the same thing, it's just you have to hold your hand in a different position. And yeah, I was like, oh my God. When you can actually feel it happening, like when there's a lot coming out, it's all this wet warmth, and you're like, fuck, if he's like cupping his hand, this is probably filling up his hand.

[00:32:10] Etienne: You know what I mean? Like that's that was how I, that was how much... I'm like, now there's a giant wet spot on the, on my special thing that I have down, my blanket that absorbs all of the badness so that it doesn't ruin my bed.

[00:32:23] Heidi: I mean, goodness. 

[00:32:24] Etienne: Yeah, I have that

[00:32:25] Jane: Oh, good. 

[00:32:25] Etienne: for my, my... Fuck, what is it called? My Liberator. I think that's what it's called, my Liberator blanket. It covers my entire... 

[00:32:32] Jane: These are gonna be who eventually are the

[00:32:34] Etienne: hope so.

[00:32:35] Jane: of this podcast 

[00:32:36] Etienne: I w- I would love

[00:32:37] Heidi: Or womanizer 

[00:32:39] Etienne: sponsor. I am like all about him now. But, yeah, I literally told the guy with the squirting, I was like, when I went to show him a video of Kenneth Play, the squirting one, I'm like, " I would pay thousands of dollars to have sex with this man."

[00:32:53] Jane: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:53] Etienne: Literally pay money. That is how much I wanna have sex with this man, because I know he knows what the fuck he's doing in every way. 

[00:33:01] Etienne: Yeah. 

[00:33:01] Heidi: Looks

[00:33:02] Jane: you're listening, Kenneth, yeah.

[00:33:04] Etienne: Yeah. He is married, but he is ENM, so ethical non-monogamist, so he still goes to sex parties and stuff. And I guess he has a girlfriend, whatever. Doesn't matter. I'm like, I would totally, that, I would be so, I would love that. Love it so much. 

[00:33:20] Heidi: You'll have to see where his sex parties are.

[00:33:23] Etienne: I think New York City, that's where he lives.

[00:33:25] Heidi: Mm. 

[00:33:26] Jane: Uh 

[00:33:26] Etienne: he might be a co-founder of these famous sex parties in New York city or something. 

[00:33:30] Heidi: trip. 

[00:33:31] Etienne: Oh, God. Me and Heidi. Jane will just be there so we can come back and tell you all about it. 

[00:33:38] Jane: Exactly 

[00:33:39] Etienne: Oh no, 

[00:33:40] Heidi: like a a cross-country tour of all the sex 

[00:33:43] Etienne: But wait, wait, Jane could come with her husband. You guys can be having sex in the hotel room while we're at the sex parties, and then we come back. We get way enough advance notice when we're coming back.

[00:33:53] Heidi: Yeah 

[00:33:53] Jane: I'd be like, "All right, you can tell me." But yeah, but we'll keep our sex party private. Very private. But yeah, you could just tell us the stories, and we'll just sit there and have cocktails and be like, and mocktails, and be like, "Wow, that sounds nuts."

[00:34:08] Etienne: That sounds 

[00:34:09] Jane: The, you could tell us all about the Eyes Wide Shut party, which actually

[00:34:13] Etienne: like these are actually those kind of parties, the ones that you

[00:34:16] Heidi: Oh, yeah

[00:34:17] Jane: That was on Long Island. Like in that movie, he goes from New York City out to Long Island, 'cause I remember the exit he gets off of is Glen Cove Road, which is where I used to live. And there is a place, and I don't know for a fact that this is where this was filmed, but I know that part of Long Island very well.

[00:34:31] Jane: It's where I was born. And, I was not born in the silver spoon side of the tracks. I was born on the other side where you like rent an apartment and a house. But there's like all of these crazy Gatsby houses, nicknamed the Gold Coast, and there's this road, Piping Rock Road, that I drive down when I'm back in Long Island visiting, and there is a gate.

[00:34:52] Jane: When I pass by it, I'm like, "That looks like the fucking 'Eyes Wide Shut' house." And I'm just, I don't know if that's where the house was, but I think that that's the gate 'cause when he's in the cab going there, he gets off the right exit, and then he's going on those, like there's these windy roads and then there's that gate. So I'm not sure if the house itself was on Long Island where they filmed it. I wouldn't be surprised. But it doesn't

[00:35:14] Etienne: Well, they at least did the exterior there, obviously 

[00:35:16] Jane: exactly. But it doesn't come as a shock that this would be like where

[00:35:21] Etienne: No, that would make perfect sense. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:35:23] Jane: Get the invite

[00:35:24] Etienne: also heard, there's another podcast I started listening to called Manwhore, and that these are great names. Um, and he talks about there's a house, I think in Brooklyn. I think it's Brooklyn where he goes to sex parties or he has been to many sex parties at this house in Brooklyn. Yeah. So I don't know. Yeah 

[00:35:45] Jane: There's a lot of good-looking people in New York. Everybody's walking around, a lot of access to Whole Foods. 

[00:35:50] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:35:53] Jane: I'm just-- am-- I'm not wrong.

[00:35:55] Etienne: No, you're not wrong. But I mean, if I... Now, is this wrong of me to think that they're at least maybe of better physical, like, of weight than the rest of the country? You know what I mean? 

[00:36:07] Jane: No, that's what I'm saying. Everybody's gotta walk 

[00:36:08] Etienne: So maybe they, even if they don't have the best face, if their bodies are of good weight, I would be interested.

[00:36:16] Etienne: You know what I mean? That sex club that I went to in Atlanta, we had butter faces and their bodies too. You know? Like, we had the whole problem was going on, you know? And I couldn't... I didn't even wanna have sex in front of these people. And I hate to say that, but it's true. Like, I thought of it. I tried, I tried. I kept, like, imagining. I kept like, "Should I just start taking my clothes off?" Like, I just couldn't do it 

[00:36:39] Jane: No, you can't, we can't help what we're attracted to and what you 

[00:36:45] Heidi: Yeah ......turns you on, what turns you off, and Yeah, 

[00:36:48] Jane: like there's things that-- So I think that that also plays into the age differences as well. You want someone who's gonna be able to meet your emotional needs, but also meet your physical needs, and if that's not happening with older men for like a whole host of reasons, then, I get it, you know?

[00:37:03] Jane: And so if you're gonna have like some other kind of crazy, more adventurous experience, you wanna be totally comfortable in the moment. You don't wanna sit there and compromise or squint and be like, "If I squint, maybe they'll be like, maybe they'll be hotter." Yeah, like 

[00:37:15] Etienne: Can't see anything 

[00:37:16] Jane: need to-- You don't wanna beer goggle your way through an experience like that. Like it needs to be legit, and I feel

[00:37:23] Heidi: What was the, longest or the largest age gap you had?

[00:37:28] Etienne: Oh, me? 

[00:37:29] Heidi: Yeah 

[00:37:30] Etienne: okay. I think now it's my current age, so 54, and the guy was 24, so that's 30 years

[00:37:38] Heidi: 30 years, wow. 

[00:37:39] Jane: was the conversation?

[00:37:41] Etienne: Actually, yeah, there was good conversation. I don't know why, but there was. Yeah. No, I mean, I hate to say that, but he's 24. I mean, he's almost 25, his birthday's coming up. So maybe that's why. He's almost 25. But still, that's really young compared to me. But no, the conversation was good.

[00:37:58] Etienne: He actually moved from * censored*, in one of those really, really small towns where they don't even have a real stoplight. It's the flashing red light. They have one of those. That's how small they are, to here in Charleston, and he lives on his own, and he's like... Yeah, I mean, he got his college degree.

[00:38:14] Etienne: He oversees construction or renovations on office buildings or yeah, some commercial projects. And, yeah, conversation was good. He'd been out of the country once, so he could tell me all about that. I think that was a large part of our conversation, was his telling me about his time in Berlin.

[00:38:30] Etienne: He had an experience there in a hostel. So I was like, "That's cool. Tell me all about that," you know?

[00:38:35] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:36] Etienne: So he... Yeah, and he's very open-minded sexually, so we mostly stayed on that topic, and then I asked him about, like, "Well, what would your family think of you knowing, if they knew what you were into?" "Yeah, no, I'm not gonna tell them." So yeah. So there was a lot to talk about. I mean, we only did it the one time so far, but he's tried to come over here. It just hasn't worked out. He was the one who was supposed to be coming over last week and after our, uh, 

[00:38:59] Jane: Oh, the guy who has problems with time. So, but, that's because his prefrontal cor- cor- his prefrontal cortex is not totally developed yet. It's almost there.

[00:39:09] Etienne: Almost there. But I mean, it's fine. I give him... he gets breaks. I will give him breaks 'cause he's 24, but I'm also not gonna give him a time slot of mine where it's like I haven't had sex in a few days and he's getting a primo spot 'cause he might not show up. I mean, chances are he's not gonna show up, so you have to get him when he's like, "Can I come over now?" I'm like, "Yeah." You know? Like, that has to be what happens with him, I think. So

[00:39:33] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:34] Etienne: yeah.

[00:39:35] Jane: Spontaneity, strong suit among the youngsters

[00:39:38] Etienne: when you're going by your emotions, it's spontaneity. Yeah. When you... Everything is developed in your brain, then you can actually plan long term. Like, I lo- oh, God, I would love to have my calendar filled weeks at a time in advance.

[00:39:50] Etienne: That would be a great joy of mine. I can only go four days because they're too young.

[00:39:56] Heidi: Yeah 

[00:39:57] Etienne: So you can only... When they're out of town, 'cause I have three out of town men that I see. Those I can plan long term because they know somebody's driving. Somebody's driving long distances, you know?

[00:40:08] Etienne: And I'm driving too. So those have to be planned in advance, and that's total- ev- all, everybody in these situations understand that. But when you're talking about in town, fuck no. Not when they're, not when they're this age. It's so hard. So that's why you have to have a big pool, and then you can just go like, "Hmm, would you like to?" Yeah.

[00:40:26] Heidi: Yeah. My largest age gap was 17 years, so 33 when I was 50, and then the most recent, 15.

[00:40:35] Etienne: Okay

[00:40:36] Heidi: So yeah. Yeah, I think I'm gonna just go for the 30-year-olds. Maybe a few 40.

[00:40:43] Etienne: You should also try the late 20s. Not joking. If they have the similar upbringings that I've... I have a few that are like that, they're just as good as the, the early 30s. Like, they're as mature, I feel like. So yeah

[00:40:56] Heidi: okay 

[00:40:57] Etienne: just like open yourself up to it as a possibility. But, only go on a date if you actually think that they might be mature enough 

[00:41:04] Heidi: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, it's a different crowd here in Iowa.

[00:41:08] Etienne: Yeah, I can't even 

[00:41:09] Heidi: Slim pickings. 

[00:41:10] Etienne: Some pe- man, if I were there, I might open up to all the

[00:41:14] Jane: broaden the

[00:41:17] Etienne: know

[00:41:20] Heidi: yes 

[00:41:21] Etienne: and up, you know? God, that would suck 

[00:41:21] Jane: Well, keep us posted and let us know what happens when you broaden that age range, and I'm very curious to see what the experiences are. But I do think that even though we did make some generalizations today, I do think that there's something to them, you know? And it's 

[00:41:36] Heidi: just a personal experience that we're having in the dating pools. 

[00:41:41] Etienne: we've dated the ones our age and we keep having terrible experiences. 

[00:41:46] Jane: This is like your lived experience is saying like, "Hey, something's 

[00:41:49] Etienne: Wait, I didn't 

[00:41:54] Etienne: even bring up the one guy, and I wanna add this really quickly 'cause it's fucking funny. The guy I think he was like 56 or something like that. He was a little bit older than me, not by a lot. And I never met him in person because we were texting and he was trying to do the thing that the 24-year-olds do where like he's asking me day of, "Oh, can I meet you?"

[00:42:14] Etienne: I'm like, "No. I'm busy. I," like, "You have to plan in advance with me." And when, when he was like, "Well, why do I have to do that?" I'm like, "Wait, what?" Like, "What, what is wrong with you?" And then I pointed... A- and he'd already said like, "Well, you're probably bombarded. You're a woman on the dating apps, you get all of the attention. There's probably like 13,000 men in your queue or something." And I'm like, "No, not, not quite that many." Not quite that many at all. But I mean, he's pointing out the obvious. And so when he was asking me, "Why can't I just ask you out day of and you can do it?" It's like, " Well, like you said, I do get a lot of attention. I do go on a lot of dates. I have dates set up, so you have to ask me in advance." And he's like, " Ugh," um, he t- yeah, like I could almost hear him sighing and going like, "Ugh." He's like, "Mm, yeah." So it, it was something to the effect of, um, yeah, I was gonna have a conversation with you when we met in person about your non-monogamy situation. My situation. 

[00:43:12] Heidi: Oh my 

[00:43:12] Etienne: Yes. Like 

[00:43:14] Jane: to give you

[00:43:15] Etienne: awesome that I'm just gonna date him from the moment I see him in person, and then I can't date anybody else from that point forward. Even though I don't 

[00:43:23] Heidi: X

[00:43:24] Jane: This is 

[00:43:24] Etienne: like a long-term relationship, so I can only have sex with him. I can only see him. I'm like, "Are you out of your fucking mind?" Like, " No." I said, "No, I think this interaction right now has shown us that we are not compatible." Y- you're 

[00:43:37] Jane: Oh man, he's proving the point

[00:43:39] Etienne: Yeah. You're not comfortable with my situation and I'm not comfortable trying to be what you want me to be. I'm gonna be who I wanna be. Sorry. Like, yeah

[00:43:47] Heidi: Exactly 

[00:43:47] Jane: Oh, he just, that's the gray divorce phenomenon summarized in just like a little anecdote from out

[00:43:54] Etienne: Yeah. I think he said something to the effect of at one point, "Mm, the idea of sharing you with other people." And I'm like, "Oh my God, what is wrong with you?"

[00:44:04] Jane: You've never met 

[00:44:05] Heidi: Yes

[00:44:06] Etienne: Like you've never dated anybody ever? Like when you were in your 20s, you only dated one person? You didn't ever just date around? Like, I'm sorry, do you not remember what the world can be like?

[00:44:16] Jane: He's probably one of those guys who feels a sense of ownership of you, but like you can only date him, but he could date other people until you, he decides that you're gonna 

[00:44:22] Etienne: Little double standard. Totally. I

[00:44:24] Jane: Fuck that noise. 

[00:44:25] Etienne: Yeah, he's obviously stuck in a previous time period, and he loves the patriarchy, and he couldn't wait to tell me what I was supposed to do with my life.

[00:44:33] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:34] Etienne: Like, okay. I know. I'm like, "Sorry, when did I get married?" I'm never doing it with you. Jesus Christ. So yeah, that's an experience. Like, without even ever meeting him, he's like, "Oh yeah, I was gonna have a conversation with you about this." I'm like, like, "Dad. Oh, I'm sorry, Dad, did I break your rules?"

[00:44:54] Jane: Wow. Yeah, we don't... We're, we're-- we seriously, we just have reached that age where it's like, "You don't get to tell me what to do. My par- my parents can't tell me what to do. My kids aren't telling me what to do. You're certainly not telling 

[00:45:08] Heidi: Yeah, my ex-husband's not telling me what to do. Like, you're not gonna tell me what

[00:45:12] Etienne: there's one person who tells me what to do, and that's fucking me.

[00:45:15] Heidi: Yeah 

[00:45:15] Etienne: Sorry. That's how it should be for everybody who's an adult. You tell yourself what to do. Don't fucking try to take over other people's lives. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:45:26] Jane: beautiful thing 

[00:45:27] Etienne: And instead, you can date people who are okay with it. So now I make sure before having sex with anybody, they know what I'm doing with my life so they can say if they're comfortable with it or not, and if they're not, then we won't have sex. That will not be the end of my world. I just want to only be with people who are consenting to everything, you know? Yeah 

[00:45:49] Jane: And right now that sweet spot seems to be really young millennials or older Gen Z. And that's good. Like I'm glad that the open-mindedness is there among... We'll just cast that in the column of 0.1 for the younger generation coming up and hopefully that open-mindedness expands to lots of other categories and the future will look hopefully a little bit brighter than it does at this particular moment in time.

[00:46:13] Heidi: And that's our show. You've been listening to The Women Are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com. And of course, you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other