Self-Snitching or Storytelling? When Lyrics Become Evidence

When does a song cross the line from expression… to evidence?

This episode dives into the controversial intersection of music, crime, and accountability, exploring real-life cases where artists like Robert Anthony Camou and Tay-K found their lyrics pulled into real-world investigations.

We break down:

•  The rise of “self-snitching” culture 
•  Whether rap lyrics should be used in court 
•  The difference between storytelling and confession 
•  Why some lyrics hit a little too close to reality 

✨ Sip. Spill. Repeat.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hey everyone, it's your girl Jay. And I'm Kendra, and you're watching Mood Swings the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Hey girl, hey. Hey. How are you? I have not spoken to you since well, I mean, we've spoken, but we haven't got a chance to actually really get together since my my birthday party, which was Funzo Munzo. I don't even know what I just said. Unzo. I'm just a rapper. But I am super excited to talk to you because I missed you. And we, you know what? We're really behind on our podcast. So I just want to- Yes, a shout-out to our our faithful listeners who actually reach out to us and see, hey, what's going on? When's the next one happening? It's just was a lot of shit going on between me and Kay in these last two weeks with my birthday and her flying back and forth from um the bay to Vegas. It was a lot that we had. Now we do actually have a bonus reel that we will be putting out as well, which we did record during my birthday. Both of us were litty like a TD, so I think it's gonna be one of a funny one, but it's gonna be because and it was and I really I you know I really enjoyed that one because she had trivia for me for my birthday, and so it was just like straight shot. You ask a question, I gotta go just come at with it. So we will go ahead and put that bonus footage out there because there are some really good pieces. But we did kind of go all over the place because we had we actually had people audience. Yes, we had a studio audience, and so and they got a little lumbunctious, so um a lot of the audio was kind of kind of meshed together. So, but we were able to get a good amount to to share with you guys, and I think you guys fully enjoy it. Yeah, that was a fun show. Yes, but now we are back on a regular format. She's in okay, he's in the bay, I'm back in just in Vegas, and we will be continuing on here. Now we do have one question though before we start the show. Do you guys like to continue to see us? Because we work really hard to try and get the visuals up on YouTube, but we really focus on getting the audio up and running on all platforms. But if you do want to see us, please let us know. We will try our best to continue to have ourselves on camera so that you can enjoy it, the podcast visually as well. Girl, we're cute. You know they're gonna want to see us. Yeah, they're gonna want to see us. Exactly. Yes, yes. So I called Kay before the show and I asked her, Oh, what are you gonna drink? I gotta be all fancy with you too. And she said, Oh girl, I'm just gonna drink some wine. And I went, well, Danny, I'm gonna drink some wine too, because I'm fancy pinky up as well. But my wine is a little different. It is it's very clear as you can see, but it is water. It is a Japanese wine. It is Jinro Peach. So it is at 13%. So I think I will be able to hold a really good conversation tonight. What about you, Kay?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

What did you drink? So I opened up a bottle of wine last night when I was making dinner. I opened up a bottle of Pinot Grigio. It's nothing fancy, it's legit Kirkland. It is legit Costco Kirkland Pinot Grigio, but I love it, it's really good. Anyway, so I opened up a bottle of that last night, and you know, I don't want it to go bad. You gotta drink it pretty quickly. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna drink another glass of wine tonight. And it's delicious.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

So that's what I'm doing. I did want to ask you in regards to your white. You are more of a oaky, I would say dry, not too sweet. You don't like too sweet, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

I don't I like white wines. I don't like them sweet at all. You won't catch me with a Moscato or Riesling or any of that bullshit. I do love I like a Pinot Grigio when it's warmer out, it's nice and crisp. I do like a Sauvignon Blanc every now and then, but it gets you right here. It's a little too crisp. But my I go to all the time is a really oaky Chardonnay. The oakier, the better. I love it more than a than a buttery one.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

But you're not a fan of red.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I mean, I will if red is all you got, I'll drink it. I mean, I'll drink. I don't want I don't like those real big calves, like those real robust cabernets. Like that's not my thing. If I have to drink a red, it'll be maybe a red blend. I guess too.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Don't thread you with a good time.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, yeah. You know, my girl T, she loves a red wine. And if you give her a white wine, she's going to get a straight attitude. She loves a red. And she drinks those big reds. Yeah, I'm not a mm-mm.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

If I'm gonna drink a red, it's gonna be a blend and it's gonna be Well, my husband loves a good red so much so that his teeth are like like when he's drinking, that wine can really stain your teeth. And so I stay away from well, first of all, I just stay away from any type of uh flavored drinks anyway, so it's much easier for me. So um, I don't think I'll be doing anything wrong with this particular crystal clear wine.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Well, you know, the the white will stain your teeth as well. That and my I that's why I started whitening my teeth because between cigars, yeah, whiskey, and wine, I looked like school bus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

I did not know.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

I did what really my hy my hygienist told me that the white wine will do it the same as the red wine. It's something about the yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

So well that either way you just taught me something because I absolutely just assumed it was the red, you know, the red dye or from the from the gray grapes. Yeah. Well, well, okay, uh that's good to know. Now that I know and and you know when when you know, you know, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

And knowing is half the battle.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Oh so my mood today, guys, is suspiciously specific. Does anyone I'm just like, is that a mood or is that like a well okay, let me explain to you why I have a mood that is suspiciously specific. Specific. I'm not accusing, but I'm definitely noticing, okay? I'm cute but questioning everything. I'm calm yet observant.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

See where I'm going with that? You sound like Alanis Morrison. I'm sane, but I'm something. I'm some, but I'm chicken shed.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

And I'm so guys, that is a weird one. And then re- and I and I will tell you why I'm in that mood very shortly from the topic of today. But what is your mood today, K-Mack?

SPEAKER_01 6:30

My so my mood's been flip-flopping all day. I've been in this silly, playful mood. But then when I think about today is uh power plant and bridge day, then I get a little my mood turns into fearfulness. So I've been alternating between the two. So you're talking about what Trump said?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

So, okay, here are what moods means. We try to stay away from political stories and things like that because everybody's all hyped up. We decide well after we did those two, we said, okay, you know what? We got enough of that shit that's going on every day. Let's try and do other things. Because I mean, every time I open my Instagram, my Facebook, it's yeah, it's it's getting shoved down our throat, right? I hear you. I like being shoved down my throat. I was gonna say, right? Just a certain one, certain nutty, buttery, oaky, you know, that type of stuff. Well, we like to say what we like to say as as podcasters, it's all coming out in post.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Okay, you know, we got a hot 15 and we put it out in post. We really do have like director lingo.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

And if we make it to director lingo, and when we say it to another podcast, they're like, bitch, what? I'm like, you know, oh, you obviously don't. We're podcasters, we've been podcasters for quite some time, at least.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

What well once I get dis yeah, but once I get discovered and start to become rich, then I'm gonna put my money behind some programs and I become an executive producer, and that's what I'm gonna start doing.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

There you go. I executive produce my life right now. Sometimes I think so. I think somebody else is producing my life at times. But yeah, I try to. Well, starring me, written by me, produced by me. You know how that goes. I feel like puppy. Minus the baby oil, but everything else. Very slippery. Okay, so anyway, so that's for my birthday. My husband posted this old video back circa 2021, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

We had just When y'all were rapping to each other, that is.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

He was rapping his shit to me. He was rapping his ass to me. And then I realized, oh my god, that's puffy.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

You know what? That's the trip. I saw that, so it's crazy. So we never talked about this. I wanted to talk to you about that because you know, when chose rapping that so you already know. Okay, when chose is in chose mode where he's, you know, popping that shit and he has this little arrogance to him, and he's like, Yeah, bitch, that is the chose that I fucking love. That's that old school chose that has been suppressed and pushed down. Yes, very much so. Due to the I blame the Hokas. But when he brings that chose back out, I'd be like, You stuck that shit, chose. And he was talking, he was doing all, he had he was like, you know, he had that little look on his face and he was doing all this. I was like, that's my boy right there. Fuck yeah. I love that video. That was so fun.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Well, I am so I'm I'm glad you said that because that kind of is a segue into my story. You know, when you listen to Chose, he is he is an absolute writer. He is a and a artist that can allow you to see into his soul. He'll write something that'll make you either feel the same way that he wants you to feel, he or he will totally opposite of how you want to feel. Either way, whatever direction he is, he is the captain of that ship and he will ster, right? That's a true artist. Well, would you believe it if you were to rap because he's so convincing when he raps, if you wrote about killing someone, I don't know, maybe say me, would you believe it? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

No, nor do I want to hear that. You wouldn't. Would I believe that he killed you? Yeah. I wouldn't, because I know the man behind the lyrics. So, but if someone didn't know him, then probably he could be very convincing, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:12

He's convincing, yeah. Because you you can and as you can see, I'm alive and well, I'm breathing right in front of you, you're listening to it, but yes, he's such a great storyteller. No, bitch, you might be AI. I hate you. So with that said, because he is so talented, he can become a storyteller and transport you from one place to the other story. And so, of course, that's when I started doing my my rabbit hole dive into. Unfortunately, I've come across quite a uh a lot of stories of artists who either make up stories that are so telling and so close to a real crime that it can get themselves into trouble, right? Now, so I'm gonna actually tell you a real crime, and he actually wrote about it himself. I don't know if you're familiar with a gentleman by the name of Robert Camus, C-A-M-O-U. Okay. So he's an aspiring, he's a non-POC expire aspiring rapper based in Arizona, and he has a girlfriend, her name is Amanda Custer. Uh, the two were in a relationship, and from the outside it looked normal, but behind the scenes, it was reportedly very toxic and volatile. Okay. Now, I'm gonna go over a couple of other scenarios, and it doesn't have to be about an actual relationship, it's just about the crime that occurred and the lyrics to which really fit that crime that turned into a court case. So Amanda Custer was found shot to death in her apartment in 2020. Aye, aye. Okay, let me just get right to it, okay? She had been shot multiple times, and investigators quickly focused on Camel. Why? Well, first of all, he was a boyfriend, and you always go to the lover that there were someone in the relationship. Yeah. Sure. I end up dead, girl. You know who to go to. I'm just saying. Same. Same. Right, right, okay. Same all day. So, and then he was one of the last people that was connected to her, and their relationship had tension and conflict. What made this case go crazy? Well, after Amanda's death, Camel recorded and uploaded a rap song onto YouTube. And this is what changed everything. Why'd the song mattered? Well, the investigators noticed that the lyrics described a violent confrontation, a shooting, emotional details tied to the act, and the timing was that they released it after the murder. Prosecutor the prosecutors are to get the word out.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

The prosecutors are You got it. Prosecutor, right? Prosecutor. I know you weren't trying to tell me not to stop. Miss Lispy the Lisper.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Shut up. Prosecutors argue that this wasn't storytelling and this was him revealing what he did. So I know, girl, girl. So when I watched the video, the guy was all, yeah, I'll kill my girlfriend, I'll bury her in uh in the desert. Did you see all the niggas behind the mic? The song wasn't a clean I did a statement, of course, but it allegedly included references to pulling a trigger of rage and conflict with a woman, details that mirrored the actual crime, and that's what made it powerful in court, and it lined up too closely with reality. I know. So now again, we have an imagination. We can write a story and again, like bring you from here into outer space. And he sounds like this is what you know majority of our artists are trying to do. But sometimes if you're just if you're it's really easy to sing a song about reality or something that happened, you don't even have to make anything up because it happened, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

But the flip side of that though, Jay, is that if you are an artist and you're a storyteller and you've gone through something traumatic and you're grieving, it's just how is that any different than when Taylor Swift, they always talk about how Taylor Swift puts all her bad relationships into a song, right? But how do we know that this guy isn't traumatized from his girlfriend or significant other being killed? And so he's like, I'm going to rap about what I feel like could have happened. You know what I mean? How do we know this is really a confession?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Well, you have a point. To me, I wouldn't put myself as that person who was the murderer.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

I hear that, but it's still remember, but listen, remember Stan? The T's gone cold, I'm wondering why. Remember Stan? And that shit was like a journey. Like you went on that whole journey with Stan and where you put the dude in the trunk or the, you know, the whole thing. But Eminem never did any shit like that. He just told a creative story from a crazy fan's point of view. Yeah, you know. I don't know. But I'm like, maybe this guy, Custard, what's his name? Maybe Camus was kind of mimicking that same type of storytelling. I don't know. I I feel like it's too close. I feel like it's now, was it in bad taste? Absolutely. Your significant other was just killed, and you put out a song saying about a confrontation and a fight. But I also feel like uh, you know, people that have dealt with grief that deal with the difficulty outlet.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

And I totally get that. But again, so I'm gonna speak to a a couple of other ones, but I'm gonna, after this one, I'll go ahead and tie this one to one of the most current cases that had just uh hit our uh media within the last year. That that singer David, D V D V four V D, right? Yeah, weird. So, and the his girlfriend, the 14-year-old Celeste. So that's why I want to kind of tie that in because look at that situation, right? So, well, let me just tell you what the case against him was. So the prosecution built the case around physical and circumstantial evidence, his connection to Amanda, and his behavior after the crime. And the song has psychological evidence, and they used it to show mindset, admission, admission style language, and lack of remorse. Psychological evidence. I've never heard that before. Right? And now this makes me think, because this happened a couple years back, did they use it the same tactics to to prosecute David, right? So well, the verdict was in he was convicted of a first-degree murder. The song became one of the most talked-about parts of the case. And why the story hit so hard? Well, it's art versus reality. This is one of the clearest examples of where it's just music turned into it might be evidence. So um this is happening again. I have other other scenarios, and it has nothing to do with relationships, it's just true murder that may have occurred, right? Um I know, and it's so crazy. And I again, I just oh, understand you can rap and sing about anything else, but if you committed a crime, sing about something other than that.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

You know what I'm saying? It's sorry, it's reminiscent to I didn't kill my wife, but if I did, this is how I would do it.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

That's what I'm saying. So the relationship dynamics is domestic tension, emotional escalation, and a deadly outcome. She ended up dead. Now I'm not exactly sure what you know, they don't dive deeply into their actual relationship. I'm sure the case does, but I'm only doing high level because it's just very intriguing to me guilt that had you write it as an actual confession because you feel sometimes I watch so much CSI and SVU and all that, and I know that just having to be able to confess it to someone because the guilt is eating at you at all times. Now, to everyone on an album, crazy. Could have just told it to your best friend, but he decided to put it all wax, okay? So I know, I know, self-snitching culture. Let's talk about that. Case gets brought up on a lot of conversations about rappers incriminating themselves, oversharing your music, and ego and storytelling crossing. Now again, like we're listening to NWA. Now he said, I'll pop that nigga in a court and put him in a trunk. But he really didn't, because that's what we just in that particular um realm of rap, gangster rap, we talk about murky people all the time.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Biggie, your daughter's tied up in a Brooklyn basement. Yeah, face it, not guilty, yeah. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Then so that's where, again, there's a fine line between creativity and um entertainment and actual real crime. So, um, so this wasn't a mystery because he may have told the story himself because it what you just see right here. It just came out in the play in the in the whole song. So if you guys are interested in in hearing the song, let me get the name of it. I want to know the lyrics.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

I mean, dude, do you have just like a little bit like a snippet of the lyrics that that they use to convict him with? I'm just like, what are the lyrics? Like, what did he say in this song that they were able to use it? And how is that? I I have so many questions about that. I have so many moral I don't know. I don't know if I'm hook line and sinker on that though yet.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Now, the what's crazy is that the the lyrics gotta be somewhere, right, for them to get it. But they said that they weren't officially published in full by the court or widely released in the verifying transcripts. So there's no reliable word-for-word public record of the exact lyrics. And that's what's crazy too, though. If we are in the court of public opinion, we need to see those lyrics so that we can kind of, you know, see.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Okay, well then that tells me then they had more than just lyrics, because if they didn't go off of just the lyrics, they had they had actual physical hard evidence. Because then if they're not going off of just lyrics.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

But what's funny is it says that the song was mainly what they used to prosecute them. Yet they haven't That's crazy. Right. Like what is that should be public knowledge once it goes to the court, right? And let's say seal it. He's older, he's you know, he's an adult.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

I just feel like that is such a slippery slope when we're using creative expression as a way to charge somebody with some sort of criminal activity. Now, I know murder is one thing, but that's just like what's that song that came out a couple of years ago? The girls talking about she's in the back of the c the cab and she's sniffing coke, all her friends are in there cup sniffing coke and she has an English accent. A white What's that lyric? Right. So, okay, that may have been creative expression. So are they gonna go and get her because they're like, oh, you and your friend, you know, your friends were in the back snorting coat. Like, we're gonna come pick you up now.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Oh, I don't know, but I flipped. Absolutely believe Miley when she said, Everybody in the bathroom in a line again, uh line in the bathroom. I I believe it because she's Miley. Isn't that what she's Miley? Plus, she's rapping or singing about the environment that she's in, about partying and going. We all know what that's about. So she's not naming names, she's just saying things that usually go on during those types of events, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Okay, so why couldn't someone come and knock on her door and been like, you were involved in doing some coke in the bathroom, and coke is illegal. We're gonna arrest you now. I just feel like it's such a slippery slope between creative expression, yeah, and you know what I mean? And just like just like Biggie, your daughter's tied up in a Brooklyn basement. I believe him. No, the fuck she's not. I'm rapping a song. I said face it, not guilty.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

You know what I'm saying? That's what I say.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Richard and Richard to these bitches come and get me.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Well, it's it says, why you're not seeing the lyric the exact lyrics? They said there are a few reasons. This says the court records do not always release full media content, and the song itself wasn't widely distributed. Because he was a, you know, a wood rapper. Let's just say that. Wasn't a real rapper. He was a rapper who was probably selling CDs out of his trunk. It wasn't widely, you know, distributed that way. So it's something that we couldn't look up because he wasn't a famous rapper. I didn't know anything. Do you know who a Robert Camel is? No. Exactly. But now we do. Look at this. He has made himself famous because of what he's done. Now he's serving life in jail, but you know, so instead of quoting fake lines, prosecutors didn't need a direct confession because the lyrics told a story that sounded way too familiar. Robert was one of the was one of the clearest modern examples of someone essentially narrat narrating a crime in music. Okay, the crime was murder of his ex-girlfriend in 2021. What happened after the killing? He recorded and uploaded a rap song to YouTube. The lyrics, the song allegedly described details that closely match the crime scene, timing, method, and emotional state. But I'm like, who would be dumb enough to do that though?

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Jay Ken, who would be fucking dumb enough to kill someone and then write a whole song about it? That's like it's crazy to me.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Tay K. Okay, Tay K. This is this. 2016, the murder during a home invasion in Texas in 2016. The song was called The Race. You can look that one up. Tay K literally recorded the song while on the run from the police. And the lyrics were bragging about evading law enforcement, referring, referencing violent acts tied to the case. And so the impact was while the song itself wasn't a full confession, the prosecutors used it to show consciousness of guilt and lack of remorse. The outcome? He was convicted of murder and sentenced to decades in prison. I'm gonna say it. I've now now rest well what do we what do we always say? Freedom of speech, right? But you are not freedom of consequences. So, and and then do we have freedom of artistic liability from that? I'm not sure. This was more of a taunting the system case, more than a pure confession, but it's still heavily tied to real events. So that's what happened. Now, uh, I'm not sure if you're familiar with a guy named Ronnie O'Neill. I'm not okay. Well, this is a lesser known musically, but extremely disturbing because the crime was a murder of his girlfriend and daughter in Florida. Damn. What? Man, so O'Neill had recorded rap style audio and social media content where he made violent and erratic statements. The courtroom toys says he later represented himself and behaved theatrically, even singing and ranting in the court. Well, we already know this nigga went to jail or might be on some kind of methy one fitty hole. The impact was his own recorded content and behavior reinforced the prosecution's narrative of intent and instability. And the outcome, convicted and sentenced to death.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Well, if he killed his wife and his daughter, I mean, but god damn. And it was all they caught him because of his lyrics. And because of his lyrics. Are these are these what are the are these black rappers?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I'm just curious. Well, yes. But Robert is not. I said he was a non-POC. And that's Robert's. He's the only non-rap looking guy rapping and a bunch of niggas behind him. And then when he says that, then all of a sudden it's a thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

It's like it's like that meme on social media where the girl is the backup singer for Tipac on the get money, where he's like, fuck, fuck, step, my fuck on my own. Right. And she's like, get mad. Like, yeah, like get the fuck out of here. She's like, you gotta go to N-U-N-Tasha.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

That's both types of armies to it. That's all funny. So right, let me finish telling you about Mac, okay? Okay. But this one flips the narrative. The lyrics used against someone who may not have been guilty. So the crime was a murder of a 19-year-old in Louisiana in 2000, and the lyrics reference shootings and violence. The issue is the prosecutors used the rap lyrics to portray him as a violent person capable of the crime. The impact lyrics were treated as character evidence, not a confession, but still influential. So the outcome, he was convicted. He was later released after serving 21 years with the evidence unraveled, bitch. Unraveled showing that he wasn't the killer. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

That's why I'm saying this is dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

And I was rapping about it all the time. But I bet you anything, what kind of lyrics did he rap about now? I bet you ain't about killing and murder. I'm about to do that. Bet you ain't about killing and murder.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

But that's what I'm saying. This is so dangerous. As Jennifer, you and I are both people that are creative. No, we don't rap, but we are creative people and we use our creativity.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Well, I mean, I don't rap my own. You know what I'm saying? I got my own.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

I don't rap, but I'm just saying, but we use our creativity to express what's going on in our lives. Like, you know, when I was like sculpting shit, I sculpted black women with head wraps that look like me. And you know what I mean? Like you are using what you know in your environment to put out creative things into the world, right? Yeah. So I feel like if you are in an environment that is violent, unfortunately, you rap about violence. If you're in an environment where you're selling dope, you're rapping about selling dope. You're rapping about being a product of your environment and what you see. And I feel like for all, whatever your creative expression is, you're going off of what's in your environment. And you could be simply just talking about what you see in your day-to-day environment. It does not make you a guilty person. I don't like that. I feel like that's a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Well, why I say this, the prosecutors did not grow up in that environment. So what they're hearing is and they see sounds like real violence. It's kind of like a stereotype, right? I don't like it. Yeah. So I and I don't like it either. But well, I don't like well, first of all, I don't like rap like that in the first place. So it's such a a visual in your head that you can actually see like violence in your head. I, you know, we turn on the TV and you see that through the minds of producers and directors as well. But do they go to jail? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

That's what I'm saying, because it's create who is saying, like, you know, you could watch the scariest, most disturbing movie ever, right? There's still a human mind that made that up. There's a human mind that brought that. This is I'm talking about before AI. There's a human mind that created this and thought about it. I actually heard a story on TMZ or something like that. And there was like a bunch of Hollywood directors. I don't, I don't know who they are, I can't even quote their name. But they were having lunch and they were talking about the plot of this new movie that they were producing. And it was a horror film, and they were talking about really horrible things happening in this movie. So much so that someone that was listening, a table down, ended up calling the authorities. And they came to this restaurant where these directors were talking and was like, what the fuck's going on? And the directors had to tell him we are producing a movie. So the point I'm making is that this creative output, and it could be the most disturbing shit you've ever heard in your life, it doesn't mean that it's not an expression of guilt. I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is a confession of guilt.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

So if there was a crazy person talking about his whole plan, the murder his ex-girlfriend and his family, and someone calls place to say is, oh no, I'm writing a story. I'm writing a book.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying that that's not the case every time, but I'm saying that it is a slippery slope, and I think there needs to be some sort of safeguards in place if we're going to start prosecuting people off of creative expression. True. I just think there needs to be something. If I'm cosplaying as a dope selling bad bitch, but I know I'm a PTA mom, you know what I mean? Like I should be free to have that creative expression and not have it used against me because you didn't like these lyrics and they scared you and you feel like I could really be doing some shit like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Okay, well, then let's not talk court, but let's talk court of public opinion. Again, back to the book. I didn't kill her, but if I were to, here are all the things I would be doing with and here's all the details. What do you think of that?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Well, in this case, let me give some context to our listeners. Yeah. So way back in the day, I'm talking 90s, right? When right after the whole thing happened with OJ and Nicole, OJ came out with a book, but it was canned before it was ever able to really reach uh public. But he came out with a book, or it was either a book or a movie. I can't remember. Do you remember what it was? It was a book or a movie. Okay. And he titled it, I didn't kill my wife, but if I did, this is how I would do it. And it was supposed to be like a fiction, right? It was supposed to be like a fiction kind of like his thoughts of how Nicole died. We were young at the time, but we knew enough to know that that was absolutely ridiculous. Why would he do that? Why would he come out with that? Now I think in a situation, I think to us, the public opinion, we all thought, OJ, are you crazy? Do not come out with that. That is basically going to be a confession. But I think that OJ was thinking in his mind, along the lines that I'm probably thinking along right now. Like, just because I say something creatively doesn't mean that I actually killed my wife. Now, can I can I say something about a story that I heard that made national news just a couple of weeks ago? Do you remember the rapper Afroman? Because I got high. Remember? Yes. I was in his son. That's a good story. Go ahead and say that one. Yeah. So, so that guy, Afro Man, so the police came and they raided his home, right? They raided his home. And somehow they got some tips that he was involved in some sort of illegal activity. I think it was selling drugs. They came, they raided his house, and there was one particular police officer there. So Afro's mother, Afro Man's mom had made a lemon pound cake, and he had it in a little cake saucer on his counter. And you see footage of when they came and raided the house. There was one particular officer, gun drawn, and he kept looking at the cake. He was like, looking at the cake, like, damn, that looks hella good. You see him physically doing a double take. So after it was all done, say it again. The cop. So after it was all said and done, the police didn't find any evidence of drugs. Nothing happened. They basically just left his house and was like, hey man, sorry. But they ransacked it. It was a mess. His children were there. They were traumatized. It was a lot of damage done, right? So Afro Man was pissed about this. And he wrote, he used his creative outlet and wrote a series of songs talking about this police officer. Well, this this police department as a whole. But particularly, he talked about this one officer that kept looking at the pound cake, and he started referring to him as Lemon Poundcake, Officer Lemon Poundcake. And if there was him and there was one other officer, which I can't remember the name of the officer now. White, right? Say it again. Oh goodness. No, I don't know about her, but there were there were these two white men that were the like the main catalyst that he talked about in these songs. And these police officers got butthurt and sued Afro Man for it. Sued him and was like, you can't you're you're it's defamation of our character because you're calling me lemon pound cake. And as a result, all my friends at the at the precinct are bringing me lemon pound cakes and I don't like it. It's hurting my feelings. And you shouldn't have said this about me. And obviously there was some sort of drug activity going into your home because we wouldn't have came there. So he says all this stuff, but the one damning lyric that was in that is that Afro man talks about sleeping with Officer Poundcake's wife. Maybe that's her who's crying then. Okay. Oh, okay. So he talks about this in particular, how he slept with her wife, his wife. And that's really what these fake charges were about. Like they brought him up on these bogus charges because Afro Man slept with the wife, and Lemon Poundcake did not like that shit. So basically, he had to go through a whole ass trial with a judge and jury and the whole nine because these police officers didn't like his lyrics about saying, calling me Officer Pound Cake and saying that you slept with my wife.

unknown 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

And they got him on a whole defamation of character suit, which, gladly to say, he won the suit. Exactly. So it says here, a jury cited with rapper Afro Man in March of 2026, rejecting a lawsuit from Ohio sheriff deputies who sued him for defamation after he used footage of their 2022 raid on his home in his music video. The deputies claim that the video included lemon pound cake, caused emotional distress, and harassed them. So that was part of it. And also, again, about the wife. So I'm just saying, if people, if we're able to, as a society, start condemning people or start bringing them into court, charging them for charges, you know, doing whatever it is that we what we want to do that's gonna do some sort of harm to this person, all based off of some lyrics, then every, you know, everyone knows I love trap. That's not a that's not a secret. I love me some trap. If that's the case, every song I listen to, come and get the artist because they're all talking about crazy shit in their songs.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

You know what's funny is that I I'm trying to pull up a little bit more information on on David, but for some reason it's like giving me like a block almost telling me that, you know, hold up. We want to make sure that we're, you know, being as factual and it says there's no technical situation between David and Celeste. Yes, it is. We were we're all there. We were all watching it.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Is the trial still going on right now? And maybe is that why they're trying to be very limited on what they're putting out there?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Uh maybe. It may be because there's like, oh, we want to make sure that you have the credibility of your podcast. Of course, I want to make sure to give correct information, which I'm sure you go back a couple episodes hours and just false information all over the place. It's what I thought sound like.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

What do you mean you were giving out false information? No, you weren't. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Remember I said that kid was dead? Kid. Oh my god. Never mind.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Moving on.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Oh no. And I said the uh one of the Christmas from crisscross. I thought he died of like lupus and shit or something.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

I do remember that.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah. So I guess I should clear that up, but I don't feel like looking it up and doing it.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

So we're just gonna move on. So this is well, this is what I have. I did not know that little girl was 15 years old. She was 14 at the time. How old was David? I think he's like over 18. Oh my gosh. The death of 15-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez, whose body was found in a Tesla registered to the singer-songwriter David, David Anthony Burke, is ongoing with prosecutors punishing, I'm sorry, pushing for murder charges. While no formal arrests have been made, investigation has considered him as suspect following the discovery of the body in September of 2025. So an arrest hasn't been made yet for the David case.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Well, I will let you know that regardless, irregardless, he just turned 21 uh March 28th. So if she was 14, 15 at the time, it still was some weird shit going on that probably shouldn't have been. Maybe she was just a fan. I think they were romantically connected in some way, but I'm not exactly sure. So we're gonna put a pin in that one. And for our listeners, we'll go ahead and once we you know the trial goes, we'll get we'll do some updates on that particular one. But um there, yeah, as I said, as I've given you so many of these ex examples, and the very last example that I do want to give you is the one about um the rapper, which I want to make sure I get his his initials right. Anyways, the name is YNW Melly. Y-N? Y-N W Melly. Like what's a What Melly, I guess. I don't know. So he was the one who has the song Murder on My Mind. I thought we already talked about this a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

How's the song go? Murder on My Mind. How's that go? Play Murder on My Mind by Y N W Melly. Murder on My Mind, Pope.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

NW Melly on Amazon Music.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Okay, so I think this is the one that was remember when we were kept watching these super cute that we keep seeing pictures of these two rappers that are going to a court and like crazy shit's happening when they bring them up to do, you know, their cross-examinations and like things are not working out. And I believe that ended up being a mistrial. So the song's called Murder on My Mind, which you just said. The song describes the shooting in detail, though it was recorded before the alleged That dude right there. Yeah, that's him. Exactly. So the prosecutors still pointed to the song to suggest mindset and the familiarity with violence. And the status is this case is still ongoing, mistrial declared as of the latest major update. And this is a key example of the gray area where lyrics are fictional but eerily parallel to real events. So he says, So you're telling me that you wrote this about I'm about to kill this nigga tomorrow, put him in my trunk, dump him in the river, take all the funk. And then all of a sudden, two days later, this dude is found in the river because he was in a trunk and got murdered. So wait, are you serious? Are you just kidding on that part? No, I'm no lyric fungals. I was just actually just making up. Okay, okay, okay. But it says it describes the shooting in detail, though it was recorded before the murders. Huh. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Well, on this one though, when I just heard this these first like three bars, he's talking about how he was locked up in Christmas. He didn't get to see his niggas, he didn't get to hug his mama. But I don't hear any confession of murder.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

But then again, I only heard like three bars, so yeah, I mean we didn't hear the whole thing. If we were to break down the lyrics, obviously we'd kind of probably see things like that. But but all I know is that, you know, I I write, you know, I'm a songwriter. I write songs. I write songs for my daughter, I write songs.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

And fade.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

I'm also a songwriter. Okay. Well, you know, everyone eats his own.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Wait, wait, what's the name of the song?

SPEAKER_00 40:55

So, but do you remember Mariah said um what's the name of the song?

SPEAKER_01 40:59

This why in the lyrics that Murder on My Mind. Murder on My Mind. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Yeah. Um, you remember the song I wrote where I said, Ain't no waiting in line because we're VIP, made my way back to the bar because they know what I'd like to drink. Just getting comfortable. Song comes on, I'm out of my seat. Girls is on tonight. Yeah, we're doing right. Grab my stilettos, jumped into the SUV. My girl Kendra rocking the pink fur over her baby teeth. We already know. Yeah. Now, if I said, so I I mean, that's what had me just going around in circles and maybe really, really interested in seeing what's going on with the most current one that I was following up on, which is again the Robert Camus one, got convicted. Obviously, something or could have been like the last case that I talked about, where after 21 years serving, it must have been through appeals, because after 21 years, you're still looking at the case. The case has already been settled, right? Right. So he obviously was still fighting to prove that he was innocent. But I again, uh is it just a very unfortunate lesson to learn learn about in America, what our freedom of speech really means? Does it really mean freedom of speech, not a freedom of your consequences? It's scary. It's scary.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Anyone could say anything. That was that was where I was just going with this particular one. I leave it to the audience. I want to hear what you guys say and what you guys think about that. Do you feel that artists um that creates music in that manner can imitate life, but could just be creative imagination, or it could actually really truly be a confession? We really don't know, right? I guess we don't know. Well, that was a good one, that was a good one for me, Kay Vack. But I did want to also since I am shouting out our our listeners, um, K, I want to tell you that I just got a message from Cheryl. Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah. So Cheryl, and she just said, you know, she she wished me happy birthday, and that she listens to every single episode, and she absolutely loves it. Oh, how cool is that, right? Um, she says, I love your podcast. I listen to all of them. Okay. I want to give you a shout-out. Cheryl, yay, I I I did ask for your your screen name so that I can give you an actual official welcome to the swing set. Listener, to the swing set. Listener of the week is Cheryl. Yay, Cheryl, you are the girl. We appreciate that. Yes, I am super excited. I I love the fact that you are listening. I hope that we aren't disappointing you. If you have any suggestions, please let us know because we definitely want to hear from you guys and we definitely want to keep adding to our swing set. Swing set. A lot of sets going on. We sat tripping over here. So, K Mac, what did you think of that episode? Wasn't it quite big?

SPEAKER_01 43:56

It was so interesting. I had never heard of anything like that before. I didn't even know that was a thing. What did you call it? Psychological evidence. That was yeah. I I'm intrigued. I use psychological evidence on my husband every freaking day. I just didn't know we were calling it something. But yes, understood. So yes, that was really good. Thank you for letting me know about that. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

I know we are in a comedy uh genre. Moose swings, we talk about everything. And you know why? Because we motherfucking can't. Because we're 50 years old and we can do what the fuck we want to. So I'm not 50. I'm not 50. Speak for yourself, please. This girl 50. She class of 94. She wanna be in there. No, I'm not. I'm class of 95. I'm not 50. So I I really enjoyed having that conversation with you and we and definitely do some follow up on there. But with that, I'd like to tell you that I love you, Kay. Love you. Cheers. Cling, clean, clean. I drank all mine.