Move Well, Live Well, Perform Well

How To Train For Longevity with Celebrity Trainer Matt Roberts

• Simon Gilchrist

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Longevity isn’t just about living longer, it’s about staying strong, capable and resilient for as long as possible.

In this episode, we sit down with Matt Roberts, one of the UK’s most recognised personal trainers and founder of Matt Roberts Personal Training, to explore what truly drives long-term health, performance and physical resilience.

With over two decades of experience working with royalty, CEOs and high-performing individuals, Matt shares the principles that actually move the needle when it comes to training for healthspan, not just aesthetics.

We discuss the foundations of effective training, why muscle mass becomes increasingly important as we age, and how to think about the balance between strength training and cardiovascular fitness for long-term health.

A key focus of the conversation is bone health and ageing, an area often overlooked until it becomes a problem. Matt explains why building and maintaining bone density should be a priority much earlier in life, and what types of training are most effective.

We also explore how Matt’s own approach to training has evolved over time, and what his personal routine looks like today after years in the industry.

Looking ahead, we dive into the future of health and performance through Matt’s latest venture, Evolution Clubs, and discuss the growing influence of wearables, supplements and recovery tools such as saunas and cold exposure. Importantly, we unpack what’s truly evidence-based, and what may be more hype than substance.

This episode is a practical, no-nonsense guide to building a body that performs well not just now, but for decades to come.

🎙️ In This Episode, We Cover

• What training for longevity actually means in practice
• The difference between healthspan and lifespan
• Strength vs cardio: what matters most long term
• Why muscle mass is critical for metabolic health and ageing
• The importance of bone health: and when to start prioritising it
• What types of training improve bone density
• How Matt Roberts personally trains today
• The concept behind Evolution Clubs and the future of fitness
• Wearables, supplements and modern health optimisation
• Saunas, cold exposure and recovery: science vs hype
• The role of emerging trends like peptides and biohacking
• The minimum effective dose of training for busy professionals

🎯 Who This Episode Is For

• Anyone looking to improve long-term health, strength and resilience
• Busy professionals trying to balance health with a demanding schedule
• People in their 30s, 40s and beyond thinking about longevity
• Those confused by conflicting advice around training, recovery and supplements
• Anyone interested in building a sustainable, high-performing body for life

🎙️ Powered by Mayfair Health

At Mayfair Health, we specialise in recovery, performance and proactive wellness. If you’re navigating ongoing symptoms, rehabilitating from injury, or looking to optimise your long-term health, our multidisciplinary team is here to help.

🔗 Website: https://www.mayfairhealth.co.uk
📩 Contact: info@mayfairhealth.co.uk
📞 Phone: 020 3985 1500
📱Instagram: @mayfairhealth

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to another episode of Move Well, Live Well, Perform Well. I am super excited today to have Matt Roberts on the on the couch with me here. It's Matt's uh someone I've known for quite a long, uh long time now, but we're gonna dive into his training philosophy. We're gonna dive into training parameters, we're gonna look at, okay, what are some of the biohacking aspects that some of his clients are using? And what are his principles around training and how does he keep himself in good shape? So a little bio on Matt. Matt is one of the UK's most recognized personal trainers and a pioneer in high-end private fitness. Over the past several decades, maybe not just two decades, he has built an international reputation working with royalty celebrities, CEOs, and elite performers, helping clients optimize their physical health, longevity, and performance. He's the founder of Matt Roberts Personal Training, widely regarded as one of the leading personal training companies in the world, known for its science-led and highly personalized approach to health and fitness. Almost five or six years ago, Matt launched Evolution Clubs, a concept focused on the future of preventative health, performance, and longevity, bringing together strength training, conditioning, and lifestyle optimization in a more integrated model. So Matt and I have worked together since 2018, collaborating on different spaces and across the health and performance space. And he's been a leading voice, and I've learned a lot from him. So I'm super excited to have him on the podcast today. Welcome. Hello there.

SPEAKER_02

If I can see you all the time. Yes. This is like an extended chat.

SPEAKER_01

So, Matt, we've known each other for a while. Um, so what has originally shaped your philosophy around training for longevity and optimizing health rather than just that, just the aesthetics?

SPEAKER_02

I guess honestly, it goes back to when I first started doing the whole thing 30 years ago. How many years ago was that? 30 years ago. 30 years ago. Three decades ago. Um and uh still looking in good shape. Well, you know, if I can't, then you can run. Yeah. So um in essence, though, the original idea of all that um I did when I was a um you know a young 22-year-old trainer doing my first club in London, um was all about keeping it very simple, focusing on the the core benefits of doing great strength work, great cardio work, you know, great diet alongside that and moving well through mobility. So actually, if you look at all those things that are there, those kind of four key pillars uh to this day define all that we do in the clubs, um, as you know. And um I think really all the things within those four pillars, you can stretch and change those to different degrees and intensities to produce an outcome which might be performance driven and might be a weight loss-driven thing. But throughout all of that, the key thing we're looking at all the time is how well the body's cells are functioning, how well it's a unit as a system it's working, um, and in making the system work phenomenally well, it can then adapt and grow and cope with anything that's thrown at it. So it's really creating a highly resilient body. And that for me is health span. I'm a bit nervous about the word longevity. I think it has um created the same.

SPEAKER_01

Do you want to live to 120? I mean, because technically longevity is okay, living a long life. And I think health span is perhaps a more appropriate word because it, you know, it means the last 10 or 15 years are good quality years.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that last decade idea that um Peter Tier, before being cancelled, was was talking about all the time, is right, actually. I mean, the point about trying to have this um point of your life where you aren't just kind of um sat in a chair doing nothing. You really are living uh better to live to 100 years old and live well and die at 100 years old and 120 and be in a chair being propped up by medicines. Yeah. So the ideology has always been about that. And I think that longevity, the way it's marketed and pushed, it gives you a promise of you know, taking X and using Y will make your live to 130 or 40. But we have to get down to the nuts and bolts of functional training, functional health, functional well-being, health span. Um, you know, I'm you you uh you work out extensively, you're you've got a sporting background. I'm the same. I want to make sure that when I'm in my 90s, I'll still be that annoying person walking up the hill with a pack on my back. I mean, that's the idea, isn't it? So health span definitely is the direction. Yep. And Lord Jovsky has a danger of uh being lost in the mishmash of um chiming gongs and so on.

SPEAKER_01

And maybe we'll touch on that in a in in a little bit. So you've you've trained a lot of very successful and some prominent people over the years. What have you learned that actually helps these sort of high-performing individuals stay healthy?

SPEAKER_02

Well, what's interesting is that everybody is different and everybody is the same in terms of what it has to go through to achieve its outcome. Uh, what differs from people who are successful um maybe in in the media world and therefore obviously visually on show is that the incentivization for being in shape and staying on program, that need to get a little bit high. It's high. It's a high bar. Um so that for them is uh it's a given. That comes with its own downsides. That's a whole thing where that pressure of having to make sure you achieve a certain l look and size and shape and performance is a huge pressure, which they have to deal with psychologically as well.

SPEAKER_01

Um and maybe we're seeing a push back to that now with all the GLP1 sort of agonists being out there and and that push to be that super skinny um body type again.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's gonna that's causing look. I'm uh I think the GLP one area is really, really good. I think it has great benefits. In the wrong hands, it's devastatingly bad. Um, and in most hands, it's in the wrong hands because unless you're doing the work around it, then they're gonna give you major downsides. So you're right to say the pressure of people trying to achieve a certain look comes from whichever icon is trying to look like and follow. And frankly, everyone wants to be thinner. I mean, they might dress it up, but frankly, everyone's to be thinner. So they're a great answer for that. I don't know that I do.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe if you're talking a per a female perspective or and a male perspective some of the time, I guess.

SPEAKER_02

But everyone loses sight though. The problem is it's it's one of those things when a saving wants to be thinner, they actually do. They lose sight of where they're at. Body dysmorphia is such a huge factor. Yeah. And psychologically it really hurts people in a big way. So getting this idea and this message always for those that are in that about how to understand health well-being and how to go about that and use those drugs and train alongside and have the diet. And it's also crucial, but that that education piece is really missing.

SPEAKER_01

And and I think that's just coming back to the GLP one, Agnes, I think that's the piece that we're missing. You know, it there have been uh incredibly powerful drugs to optimize and change people's metabolic um health. But the downside is that you know, we now know that it can damage your bone health. It can lead to uh sarcopenia, it can lead to marked issues with your tendons, with your joints. Um, and if you're not educated to ensure that you're training in in conjunction with this, then one, you're highly likely to probably put the weight back on if you do try to wean off um if you do try to wean off uh them at some point in time. But it's it's it's a real issue that we're perhaps going to see I don't know, two to five years down the line. Yeah, we are lots of musculoskeletal issues because of the GLP1 agonists.

SPEAKER_02

Almost well 100%, yes. Um I think in I don't know what the ratio is going to be or the numbers gonna be, but probably in 75% of cases that'll be the issue for sure. In 25%, they'll be phenomenally successful. Of course, the upsides of taking them against Alzheimer's, even treating cancer now in in certain studies and and work um and uh the anti-inflammatory effects full stop, they're all good. That's all great. You can sell them on that basis, but you have to understand the way you've got to use them to not get the downsides. There's pros and cons. Yeah, massively. And the the issue with the the way that someone loses weight as well is while you see a visual change where you know there's some fat loss and some muscle loss going on, the power and strength you're losing before you see the change in the muscle loss is so high, yeah, that's when the bone issues become apparent and an issue not straight away, but it's going to be two years, three years, four years, five years later. So we are storing up this issue. And my deep concern for the way in which if uh currently, if he's uh that's how I broadcast West Street and still is a health minister in this country, uh if he's trying to do a rollout of GOP wands via the NHS, it's a great idea. Get the principle, be given to those people who actually don't do anything already, and back at work again ideally that the plan and the intention, if you're given to those people, they just end up losing the weight, go back to work for a bit, get sick, come off the drugs, change.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's it's a cycle that we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02

You're creating a real issue. Yeah, I think that that's the concern. So there has to be an understanding of dosage, has to be an understanding of this is not a high dose drug. Um, if you are going to take it and you have to rethink very hard about taking it. It's a low level constantly, probably gonna end up being intermittent. Yeah, whether it's microdosing or microdosing, log spacings, um, and then there's great success from that, it seems so far, and that's the caveat. Yeah, it's very much a case of it's a work in progress. You know, there's endless data for diabetes on this drug for I don't know what is now 20 years somewhere there, and that's great. But as it's off-label type approach of a weight loss thing, um, it's now seven, eight, nine, ten years.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and we hope we don't have that sort of longitudinal data yet. Um, so we'll probably touch on that uh a a little bit more in a second, but one of the biggest discussions, you know, from a time poor individual is always around okay, well if I need to prioritize something, should I prioritize cardio or should I prioritize strength? And in your um experience is there a general rule or does it depend on the individual?

SPEAKER_02

It's a bit like do I keep my left leg or my right leg? Um you there's there's no easy answer to it. If you actually had to twist my arm and say, is it one or the other, then I'd go with the strength training. Yeah, of course it would. Yeah. Of course, but only because um it has the the impact across both dimensions. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

So you know if you're training in a metabolic methodology, then it's fine.

SPEAKER_02

And that's why again, information education, but it has to be such that people understand how to do that. So I go with that. Um but both are so important. Um and you know, strength training.

SPEAKER_01

So would you prefer to be stronger or have a higher VO2 max? You'd prefer to be stronger.

SPEAKER_02

You're gonna die one or the other, aren't you? Yeah, this is the thing. This is why, because VO2 maxing, if it's a low VO2, you're gonna die younger. We know this already.

SPEAKER_01

You will struggle to walk up the stairs, you'll struggle to keep up pace, you'll struggle to do your hill climbing, and you'll probably then slow down and not be able to And strength then falls and structure fails and so on and so on.

SPEAKER_02

So um, you know, there's no easy way to do it. I think the the only answer would be with the strength creation and the right methodology, you can create enough of an overload to the body where you at least get some baseline VO2 good build. Yep. But it's not going to be the the beal and hence why it's the left leg, right leg yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I I almost have a I think if if it's a female, definitely strength training. 100%. If it's a male and they've trained a lot, if you had to choose one or the other, yeah, I may go, okay, look, we've maybe we prioritize a little bit more cardio here because you're already relatively strong and we can mix that in. But I I think it's nuanced.

SPEAKER_02

Very, because even within that, a guy who stops doing weight training gets dropped for losing muscle mass. I think the key things to understand for anyone about how you choose what you do, um, especially those who have a fear of weight training, is that this is not about size development, it's part of the equation for some people, but it's all about strength. It's just all about strength and power. Yep. If you can create power, then that's got a great chance of uh creating maybe a bit of a lift in your VO2. And the impact of that on your metabolism, your health, bone structure, coordination, balance, those are all the big upsides and wins in that. So if you're going to construct something, it would be around a power strength program.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and interesting, you you you bring up power because I think for quite a few years in terms of optimizing health span, we've talked about muscle strength and these measuring specific markers to get a bit of a baseline. But actually, as you alluded to, actually, one of the first things that drops off and it's not identifiable is your power output. And actually, that's what we should be testing early, also in conjunction with strength, but actually your power drops very, very quickly. And you know, I gave a talk to a longevity conference on the power of muscle, and it's and it's that's one of the key markers that we should be trying to test and identify and train. Yeah, because you if you want to run up some stairs, power.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you want to catch yourself from falling down, it's power. Yeah. Um, if you want to try and just you know play any form of sport, pretty much they're power movements. Yeah. So all the stuff which involves you actually being functioning as a human being are largely power strength-based activities and and needs and demands. So the the crowd who are just doing it for the aesthetics, it's fine. That's all great, perfect. But you should actually, in the mix of that, from a health span perspective, yeah, work on specific power drills, bounding work, plymetric work, things that give you a different challenge. Because that's what we we lose quickly, yeah, left unchecked. And it's it's always a thing where we see guys and and girls who get to being around 50 years old and they used to be you know an athlete in university, and then 20 years later, suddenly they try and run on a tennis court or anything, realize I just I can't run for the thing. I run, I go running, but I can't run for the ball, I can't move quickly. The power's dropped so much.

SPEAKER_01

It's that speed of speed of the boobs.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what's going to catch you when you're falling, so I can make sure you feel like you're you're vibrant. It's a sense of empowerment, yeah. The ability to move quickly and react quickly.

SPEAKER_01

Because it is, you know, it's a common feeling that people describe when they have gone from from perhaps a position whereby, you know, not quite a couch potato, but have let themselves go or haven't been as fit as what they needed to be, and actually they get back into training and they get they become more physically resilient again. And that confidence that they get from that and feel from that is quite remarkable within the body.

SPEAKER_02

Massively. People do forget. I guess it's a bit like childbirth. People just forget what went before.

SPEAKER_01

You remember all about childbirth.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I I was there for both of mine, and I I suffered the pain obviously immensely and naturally. Um, but it was a case of, you know, look, I think people do forget what it's like to feel good, do forget how it is to feel that kind of ability to move well. And when you do get it back, it is a a rejuvenation. Yeah. It really is. It's that sense of, oh my god, that's what I was, and that's I can be that again. It's all fine. And there is a you know, I'm I'm 53. One thing for me that was key in the last few years, um, I suddenly realized there's certain things that I wasn't doing quite so frequently. I wasn't going and doing the run-up the mountain type stuff, which I'd go and do now and again. I wasn't going to do stuff which actually was sort of normal, even sort of crazy mountain biking things. Um, so I thought, well, there's some danger involved here, but I can go back to do those things again because it's a bit of a case of if you're gonna train for a thing and go and attack it to retain and uh regain that kind of youthfulness and that keep the health span there. Then if you don't start now, well, when are you gonna do this? Yeah, you wait another six months, nothing changes, or it gets worse, a year, two years far. You've got to just get on with it and think about all the facets and all the things that are missing and make those become the the mainstay. And that means staying uber focused on doing it. It does mean foregoing certain parts of the things you might have wanted to do in your life, and that is a choice to make. So it sounds depressing, but it actually is part of literature.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I I sort of liken it to the fact that we're, you know, evolutionary-wise, we're hunter-gatherers. And in in a very short time span span, we've gone from you know being very active hunter-gatherers over, you know, a couple of hundred years to now we're sitting on our backside and waiting for AI to sort of take over the world. And we're not keeping that strength and resilience in the system. We're not chasing after the wildebeest, we're not you know, doing the the cardio work that we would have done in the past. And so you you do have to compensate for that. You do have to ensure that you keep your body strong, otherwise it it's gonna fall in a hole.

SPEAKER_02

Well, one of the things that's interesting, I mean, the last what you know, five, ten years, I've seen massive rises in wearable tech. I've got my whoop on now. And um, I think for lots of guys, the whoop is one that actually turns them on the most. Lots of girls is more aura, yeah. Um, and a mixture of other things in between. But the reason why it's um it's good to look at and surprise people when they're looking at the data is just how little they do. I mean, if you actually look at a day and a week and a month for most people without really having them think about what they were doing beforehand, and you look at the breakdown of their you know, zones one to three cardio, frequency of strength training, intensity of strength training, tones they've lifted, um, all of those things, they're horrifyingly low. Yeah. Steps per day, the basic stuff. Yeah. That's all at a low level. So we aren't doing a great deal. So you do have to proactively set the profile up, yeah, be conscious of that over that rolling seven-day period of what you've done in that period of time. Um, and really attack it because each time you you miss a thing, okay, you're missing one thing, not at the end of the world. You miss a week, it goes back a bit. You miss a month, six months. We know at the end of you know eight to ten weeks of doing nothing, you've lost all you did in the previous six months.

SPEAKER_01

You you've you've lost a I think the body can adapt to perhaps a week and a half, two weeks of of not much load in it. But actually, beyond that, you start losing muscle mass quite quickly, and you certainly drop off strength very, very quickly.

SPEAKER_02

Enormously.

SPEAKER_01

Um So we run a bone health clinic and we talk a lot about optimizing people's bone health um because that's such an important pillar in um reducing fractures, in optimizing people people's well-being, and improving that health span. So what types of training are most effective for optimizing bone density?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean the the the biggest outcomes uh come really from um the two main things, don't they, which is it's that high level loading. And I think when we talk about the level of loading, again, for most people it's surprised just how high that loading's got to be. Yep. Um, and whilst yes, we want to get to a level where we're pushing you know big percentage of body weight and beyond uh to get that stress to the the tendons and bones that we need, you know, it'd stress as well that that's over a long duration, and that's not kind of a jump in there tomorrow and go and try and lift this stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um but what you've got to get to the point that you need good movement patterns for someone to be able to tolerate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and then it's fine. But once you got to that point, which isn't that long a process, so after two, three months you can get there certainly for even and begin. Um at that point, it does mean doing you know, it's it's six, eight rep type stuff. It's that really high loading, and in those last two reps, it's maybe you know one in reserve, and that's it. So it's a it's a super high level. Um, doing you know, three, four, five sets and push hard. Um we're talking strength training. Strength training. Yeah, strength training. So doing the the deadlift movements, uh doing a split squat, um, doing stuff which can load up into the main areas around the hips and the lower back. Uh and they're great, super successful, work phenomenally well. So no, they work, but that means doing that diligently. Yeah. It's not a kind of a now-and-again thing. It is kind of you know twice a week, three days a week, um, and turn up, do the work. Doesn't take that long. It's quite a short process to do those things, but by missing that out, then you're in trouble. Yeah by doing the work, as we've seen results with a number of your clients going to be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01

Well, the lift more the lift more trial is what we base a lot of our standard on, and now as sort of four key movements. Yeah. Back squat, deadlift, overhead press, and then a jump, jump and land from a step.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And lift more it's a really good uh research process and program and report. It's fairly limited in its number, but since then it's had a lot of work for people doing the work beyond, and it clearly worked very well. Um the the jump stuff, the planetric work, um, I think is probably at the right strength point, possibly more um uh responsive than doing the pure strength work.

SPEAKER_01

That's it's it's interesting. I don't know that we know that.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think we do. No, I'm not sure we do.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it'll be very, very interesting to understand that. You know, is hopping and jumping more effective than okay, just pushing pure strength stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I saw some research from uh someone in Japan that was about using uh plymetric work with rotations to start in one position, do a nice degree turn in the air, land it's you've got torsional uh T on there.

SPEAKER_01

That's what you need. And we know that you know your peak burning mass occurs for individuals at around about 30, just under under 30 for females, around 30 for males. And if you're not doing these lateral sports in your teenage years and putting different Different um amounts of load in different directions, then you're probably not going to achieve peak bone mass. So that torsional force.

SPEAKER_02

It makes total sense, doesn't it? So it'd be good to see an extended study of that. And actually, you know, a large study and see how that works. Because I think anyone's doing any rotational work, bounding work, side lateral work, um alongside doing the pure strength work, gains there are great. And um there's then no need to go down the line taking medication if you can put the work into that frequently. Um and whilst people say you know that they were doing running three days a week and still got osteoporosis or osteopenia, um, it's not the running, it's what went around the running.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and look, running we know that you know our bone receptors turn off after about 50 hits. So you can run 50 steps and then they're done. You've peaked out and you've peaked out. And so actually running typically, we know that you know elite runners can have lots of bone stress injuries, partly because of reds, which is relative energy deficit syndrome in sport. Well, deficit in sport. And there there can be lots of sort of overuse type bony injuries in that sort of group.

SPEAKER_02

So running is not no, it's overuse and under nutrition. Um, and the running itself as an adjunct to the other stuff is great. So you give you the way of making sure you're you know generally healthy and well, um, but without the strength work, then it's not going to save you, that's for sure. But it's not to say stop doing the running, yeah. It's alongside, it's the additional thing alongside it. But the diet alongside that has to be phenomenally good too. And it's the same thing as you know, people with bone density issues as it is with people with testosterone changes as guys, too. If you're you know, as young guys in their 20s not keeping up with the demands in their body, you're going for that you know 20k run, then play some football, and then go and you have some beers in the evening, then go to the gym the next morning, suddenly the strain's so great, yeah, you can't keep up. Well, the bone thing is the same unless you're actually feeding the system well. Um start with a low density stroke.

SPEAKER_01

Load cycles and rest cycles. So you've got to you know manage that whole sort of balance in the system.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and absolutely, and and the key thing for that question we know from the testing of people in their 20s and 30s, is this is not an all person's you know, disease and condition.

SPEAKER_01

So when do people have to start thinking about their bone health?

SPEAKER_02

Well, if you're um if you're a mother or father listening to this and your daughter is 15, 16, I mean hammer it into them right now.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um so you want what we want is we want teenagers playing a lot of sport.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, a lot of sport. Right and and and eating well. I mean, that's the thing. So the you know, the the phases and the fats, which actually we're in this country you know, hugely in the low-fat dieting and uh no dairy 30, 40 years ago. Well, those same girls, some of those now will be suffering as a result of that when they were 16, 17, 18, 19. So getting the girls now to you know watch what they're eating, be aware of good food, and that's always gonna be an issue for people, obviously. Um, but it is a key phase and playing sport, and again with boys and girls as divide. You know, we know that boys play sport more successfully than girls do at that age. Girls drop off the map for a while and seem to get back a bit more now, which is good in their 20s, doing more group sports. So it's changing a little bit, but those are the key years uh in the kind of early 20s, late 20s. Um, and it goes hand in hand with when people just you know do less exercise because they start their first job. They're start at work, they start and there's no time, and then they have a baby, and so on. So it gets tough.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, definitely. So I think take-home for people is you know everyone needs to be exercising, and actually thinking about your bone health actually starts in teenage years, but it's never too late to actually try and optimize your bone health, even if you're 60s, 70s. We've seen improvements through our bone health program in these individuals who've scanned low bone density, we put them on a specific strength program, often using our biodensity machine, good nutrition, optimize their hormone balance, and actually they're improving. Um, and so I think that's got to be a message that that sort of people take home.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because in one phase in life it's about development where you can get that because you've got the ability to develop the bone structure and mass more easily. Yeah, and one stage about stopping the rot. Yeah, and you know, make sure you aren't going backwards any further. If you're ostepenic, well, let's keep you ostepenic rather than the osteoporosis. Yeah, but we can start to reverse too, but it's a win if you're just stopping the the downturn for short, but certainly improve in 50s and 60s and even beyond. Um, unless a medication plays a role later, is you might as well start at that point because there's a there's a great gain. Yep. Um but the the message in the 20s, 30s, 40s is do the work, you know, get off your butt, start to move, lift the weights, and um strength training.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it is really and strength training helps the bones, cardio does nothing for the bones. No. So 53 through this year. 53 this year. Okay, so you you look like you're in pretty good shape. I've seen you in the gym. You like to have those guns out a little bit. So how do you how do you personally stay in shape? Like what's your routine that you go through?

SPEAKER_02

How long's the podcast? Um, I actually I really I sort of changed it a bit just in the last three, four, five months. Okay. Um just really uh well, like I said before, a little bit, if not now when. Um and in analysing my own breakdown of what I was doing in the course of a week, yep, then there were certain things that um were missing a little bit. Certainly in our VO2 testing, it becomes quite apparent exactly where VO2 max. I'm I'm up in the kind of 50s. Okay. Yeah, so it's all solid and good and fine. Um I haven't tried a new piece yet, actually. So that's uh for me to do this week, which is good. But the zoning within that, the key thing for everyone, is that the the ability to get into this higher threshold zone and stay there, everyone drops off a little bit on that one. And that's where um I made a real concerted effort to make sure I go into my pain cave when I'm doing my cardio stuff on the short stuff, the um Norwegian four by fours. Yep. So four minutes on, four minutes off, four times.

SPEAKER_01

How do you do that? Are you on a bike? You know on a bike. Are you yeah, okay?

SPEAKER_02

I mean it hurts like hell. I do on running as well, actually. I I I do the run version of it. I think I get a better response on doing it on the bike.

SPEAKER_01

So that Norwegian four by four is I think classically known as one of the most effective tools to optimize your VO2 max.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think you I'm not quite sure. The percentage gain for memories is around 17-18% gain over something like a 60-week period. Yep. Which is significant.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, yeah. So um and how okay, so you've in introduced some of that into your raging.

SPEAKER_02

I was doing it before, but just you know, not quite that principle. So I was doing intervals, of course, but I was doing generally more the you know, minute-long stuff and 90-second stuff. And actually, hand on heart, I wasn't going through that kind of pain cave experience and going to the four minutes.

SPEAKER_01

So so how okay, so ha let's break this up. How many strength sessions a week would you do? So I do four or five. Four to five. Yeah. All strengths.

SPEAKER_02

So the four or five are um I do it as push pull. Yep. So it's an all-day push pull. So Monday, Tuesday, push and then a pull. Yep. Um, and then it's you know, generally a Friday and a Saturday push and a pull. And then the Wednesday and Sunday will be a combination, super setting, could be a circuit approach instead. Yep. And those push pulls um are two of them are heavy with power. Yep. So there'll be five, six, seven, eight reps uh with speed, well velocity. And then the other two push pulls uh will be their uh 10, 12 reps, um, mid-range stuff. Um but increasingly actually I'm sort of adapting a bit of that now and again on a cycled basis. So I'll do that in the course of a week. Every other week or every third week, um I do it as being purely high rep range stuff. Okay. So reps of 20, 25 reps per set. Yep. Um to deload the risk on the tendons, mainly. So taking away the stress because trying to load week.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, third large. So you're almost using that sort of mesocycle, yeah. Yeah, which is typically three or four weeks.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. So I just find that works well for optimal recovery. If I just do the set the heavy work week in, week out, yeah. I feel it. I feel shoulder tendons. Getting on a little bit. Well, you know, yeah, I mean I might look young, but uh but yeah, but it's it definitely I feel a thing. If and then try to do everything else alongside it, um, means that you're compromising on when I go for a run, you know, that hip's a bit sore or that knee's a bit tender. Okay, so four or five strength. So four or five strength.

SPEAKER_01

When do you get your cardio in?

SPEAKER_02

Uh on the same days. Pretty much same days. Okay. Yeah. So I'll do normally in the course of a week two to three zone two cardios.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. Do that run or bike?

SPEAKER_02

That tends to be it's it's either. I mix it up actually. So um uh two, three zone two cardio, um, and that goes into a zone three actually as well. And then do at least one, which is zone three to four fast run, which can be between four and eight K. Okay. Okay. So in the course of weeks of that. And then the the Norwegian uh is every couple of weeks. Okay. It's subbing out one of those cardio exercises. Yep. Um, and one of those uh might be subbed out as well out of the three to four cardios a week to being a short interval session. Okay. Depends on my timings each week. So overall, it's about four slash five cardio, four slash five strength.

SPEAKER_01

And are you doing them together or are you doing double sessions?

SPEAKER_02

So I like the weekend I go from my mad two and a half hour long just cram it in session. That's a long, yeah, it really is. So cardio first. Um and right on a bike for several hours, but well, on a Saturday morning, for example, I'll do a 30 to 45 minute run. Yep. Um, followed by then back into the my gym onto bikes.

SPEAKER_01

So you run, you do your cardio before you do your strength. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Why?

SPEAKER_02

Well, theory should be you could go for the strength first uh and get out there then. I just find that um I think I perform better in the strength, having done that full long cardio session, my body's moving really well and feel much better on the strength.

SPEAKER_01

And you haven't smashed yourself on the cardio No No, because it's only two stuff. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

It's all sustainable stuff. So uh that's in there. And then after pretty much every workout, I mean certainly six days a week, uh I do infrared sauna for half an hour.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. Okay, cool. Okay. So am I right in saying you're doing you're combining most of the sessions of cardio and strength? By you're doing five to six sessions a week? Yeah. Total.

SPEAKER_02

So probably have you know there's one or two days where there's probably nothing on those days.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So you have one or two rest days. Yep. And your recovery, you like using infrared saunas.

SPEAKER_02

It's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. Yeah. Cool. Why?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I mean, the evidence on it is good in terms of being anti-inflammatory. Yep. Um, the recovery of uh any tissue damage um looks to be exceptional. Yep. Um, I was with some guys in uh in Qatar before Christmas last year at the Elite Performance Center down there, and their work around this heat for recovery. Yeah, so yeah, and uh yeah, uh good guys down there. Um so um all their work on the area uh was phenomenal. So uh so we know it works, and then just in terms of experimenting as the guinea pig, you know, doing this everyday half an hour approach to 40 minutes, and this is a level which is you know 66 degrees, it's got a super hot, it's that kind of more mid-heat.

SPEAKER_01

Um and so by 30 minutes, you're starting to sweat by the end of that 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, even before. Actually, mine's pretty pretty good in terms of it's got eight panels in there, so already feel it. So after about yeah, 15, 20, yeah, it's uh it's it's pouring out of me. I just I know that my um get to get nerdy on it, my HRV scores um in direct correlation to that input of the additional sauna time for the last four months are up by a solid, you know, 15, 20% on average. Uh resting heart rate is down by uh around five, six, seven percent as an average.

SPEAKER_01

So that's definitely a a metric that you can see as being a direct direct correlation between uh doing so it's helping improve your recovery, reducing maybe that systemic inflammation.

SPEAKER_02

Almost certainly. No, I can only measure that by a few things. My blood data is always good. Um I know things like my the skin, I can feel the skin of my body is definitely um smoother, better. So that's the anti-inflammatory thing, or dermatologist uh said that's definitely an outcome that you get. You get increased collagen production as well. So that uh all all tallies and and and marries up. So that's that what we don't know is that because the effect of doing that um alongside that, uh my performance in my training has improved more, perhaps more focused personally. Uh so I've had what kind of goal to be on it. So which one is causing which is one having an outcome? Yeah, just don't know. But frankly, as a pattern it's working, it's working. Yeah. So uh with that going on, uh I'm quite intrigued now by uh the the VO2 score when I do the new one uh coming up the next few weeks. So let's see. And if I can keep it up in the mid-50s, then I'll be delighted for now. And then I'll test again a year later and see and nice and go with that.

SPEAKER_01

And do you add in any other recovery parameters? Like do you do a cold plunge? Do you do anything else based around that?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I was doing cold for a bit. So I was doing cold plunge a bit in the mornings. Um, but again, some of the research on this stuff and cardiologists, there's quite a few red flags going up over that kind of thing that get up in the morning, especially for guys who are in their you know 40s, 50s, and those that are fit and healthy too, because think, yeah, I can go and do this and do the bro thing. Um and it's a shock. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, if it can be too cold, it's just a shock to the system. Um, and in terms of again, if you look at the research on what cold does for you from a recovery point of view, you're best watching getting in the warmth. So if you're gonna choose your weapon, you'd probably go into that. Now there are upsides to be in the cold as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think the this feels like it's almost nuanced in that if you're trying to recover very quickly and you've got a big event on uh getting in the cold would actually be very, very useful because I think most of the data suggests that the perception of you know how your legs feel and might reduce that that um systemic inflammation. But actually, if you're using it all the time post-training, perhaps you're dulling down the adaptions that you're getting from your training.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's the research, certainly, that uh Aspatar uh pulled together, and that was what was surprising and interesting to the degree they found it. Um so uh that dulling down, that um slowing down recovery just seemed to make total sense. And having played with that as doing only the heat and not the cold I was doing, I can feel that for sure. Yeah. So um on a practical level, on an anecdotal level, feel it on a research level, sounds like it kind of measures up. So for now, I've taken the cold away, even the cold showers. So I was doing cold plunging, not even cold showers anymore, which is great. Yeah, I don't miss that.

SPEAKER_01

I still do a cold shower at the end of my. I just you're just trying to man up. Uh I do need some help with that sometimes, but I I I just get out feeling a little bit more energized. Well, that's what I miss from doing it because actually it does pep you up. You do feel good, but it is a good idea. And I don't think I mean I'm only doing it for 30 seconds or a minute. I don't think five minutes. I was kind of going, oh, no, no, no. I'm not. Yeah, no way. Um I don't think I'm going to see a big systemic impact at that level. No, you know, cold plunge will be significantly more effective for uh a long period.

SPEAKER_02

But uh Yeah, it just feels like it's a little habit that I do, and yeah, it's I think this is where I think sometimes th again, going back to the point I made originally over uh the pillars of wanting to work on and the reason why longevity, the comment the sort of subject of longevity can be slightly uh distracting, yeah, is that some of these are nuanced and you do find actually a thing will just work for you uh against the research. Yeah. Because it just works for you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, not necessarily physiologically, but just mentally. Exactly. And I and I think the construct of a lot of this is actually if it makes you feel better. Yeah. Give a shit what the so long as there's there's no deleterious.

SPEAKER_02

Well, these are it's the yeah, it's the onion, isn't it? So you have the kind of the central layers of the onion, you've got this thing, this kind of compact part that has to be there, it's the core. And the bits you then add on to that layering effect are the the maybes. They add on a little bit, you know, bit by bit. Do you add some extra benefit? Maybe. Is it gonna be great? Possibly. Yeah. So you just try them and there's no if there's no downside, yeah, then then fine. I mean, there's a risk on I don't know, digestion-based thing that's different, but on doing the I don't know, doing red light therapy, you're doing blue light therapy, you're doing cold plunging, there's really no risk, yeah, by and large.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, my view is that the the 90-five percent is very good strength and conditioning work, sleeping really well, optimizing your nutrition, and trying to reduce stress, and then having some good social relationships. Yeah, all the others if you're not doing that basic stuff, are all the others gonna make a lot of difference?

SPEAKER_02

They're gonna be half percent here and there. Yeah, it's really nothing at all. Um, but the the uh the stress thing and the social thing, you know, those actually are phenomenally powerful areas. Yeah, completely. Um, and uh how to control the stress, how to you know just kind of generally you know, clear the um the chatter is is a key thing. I mean, I do meditation. Um and how often do you do that? Well, I mean I I I'd like to say I do it kind of three, four days a week. It really varies. Yeah, um, and some days I just cannot get into the the space to do it. But the the guy who who taught me to do this current style, which is mantra-based version of of doing it, says it doesn't matter if you're doing you know 15 minutes of this and you think you're just thinking and thinking and thinking of stuff constantly, you're still doing the practice, and therefore the outcome is not dissimilar. So, okay, fine. Um, and and to be fair, he's right, it does work. And some days you have days where you can sort of you know get into what you perceive to be a meditated state, yeah. And in reality, that's not there either. It's just a kind of is that a sleep state? It might be. Whatever it is, the practice itself. And I demanded the research behind all this from uh this great guy, Michael. Uh, and it's true, it does have the same effect of probably dumping senescent cells. Yeah, um, it does make you have um an ability to calm the the brain, calm the that that chatter down, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I have that as a as an issue, and I am very aware of that. And I used to have this well almost this belief that okay, well, I've always been an athlete, I've always trained my body, but actually I just sort of expected the mind to follow along. And I mean actually, I've really had to change my mindset on that and actually look at okay, well, you know, I need to understand myself, I need to understand how this amazing computer works, and actually doing mindfulness has been incredibly powerful to actually just calm things, quieten things down, and yeah, okay, it's one of the first things that drops by the wayside.

SPEAKER_02

Which is stupid, isn't it? No, but it does because you convince yourself having the time too busy exactly when you need it the most.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Yeah. Um so you launched evolution and evolution clubs five years, six years ago. Uh yeah, yeah. Seven years ago.

SPEAKER_02

Seven years ago.

SPEAKER_01

What was your vision behind sort of creating that?

SPEAKER_02

Well, really, it's taking um you know the I all the best facets of what's available to put into these pillars and make them work. Um, we worked together for a number of years, and um, you know, the the the physiotherapy and movement aspects are key parts of that. So bringing in, having specialists working within the centre, within the club, hand in hand. Uh, I've got my great training team, we've got a great dietitian, we have you know doctors to consult in and out for various things, whether it be hormones or anything else alongside. Um, the Pilates studio in in the club in in Mayfair, and that's integrated very you know thoroughly into the the club that's in in Knightsbridge, South Kent. So it's taking the best of the things we need to try and complete this central core of items. Yeah. Um, and again, the things that are periphery, we keep literally physically periphery. We send people out to the doctors and mech to try and get something else done when need be for the extras, or they're gonna go for whichever other therapies. The core of what's available is making sure that it's this strength, movement, eat well, live better approach to um how we go about it. Or so it's all about that and having this um uh one-stop shop in the nicest, most luxury uh sense possible. So it does that really well. Yep. And I think that's where it's it's highly successful because of that. When I look around what's going on across the board in the industry right now, you know, it's a it's another period of change again.

SPEAKER_01

There's a lot of noise out there in that sort of longevity space, health span space at the moment.

SPEAKER_02

There is, and a lot of open, a lot of closed.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and it's a shame. But you know, it's always sad when it happens. But I think that the reason is that it's a really nice idea to have um a way of going somewhere where you can go and go somewhere to breathe well and and practice that, and that's all good stuff, it's all fine, or go for the infrared, or go for the cryo and go for whatever the other things that might be there um and available could be. The problem is just as a model, they're tough models financially as a business. Um, so their chance of success is relatively limited. Um, I think it comes back again to what will people stick to long term? They might go and try the DJ in the sauna with 30 people uh once because it's a laugh. Yeah. Will you go back every couple of days? Yeah, I don't know. It really doesn't appeal to me at all.

SPEAKER_01

I've actually bought some decks to try and teach myself how to DJ, but I Definitely don't want to be in a sauna. Swim shorts in the sauna with 30 best friends. Cranking tunes. Yeah. I want to I sort of I like my mindfulness state and you know use that as a meditational sort of zone.

SPEAKER_02

So take that concept and also then look at anything which involves wet space is always a problem for people. And the more you're gonna pay for a luxury version of those things, the more you demand privacy and cleanliness. So when you try to share um a an iced bath um with all that goes in there, with all those skin cells floating around, I don't know. It just doesn't really do it for me. Yeah, I think there's a danger in that model of it just running out of out of steam to excuse the pun. Yep. So um so it's it's a shame because some good stuff is going on in terms of what's out there available. I just think as models they're tough. It will come back to the just doing the basic basics. Yeah. So great gym, yeah, great training, great trainers. Um I do think is good is there's been a big change in social exercise. Yeah. So the big run groups you see, you know, pounding around the parks every evening and Saturday and Sunday morning and so on. It's great. That's really that that's the best way forward.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and you know, maybe Park Run has Parkrun's good. Been at the forefront of initiating that sort of change. But I think Yeah, I think I I think the big sort of the key pillars are those, you know, five or six sort of key pillars, lifestyle sort of pillars that that really help to optimize individuals. And they should never change.

SPEAKER_02

No, I think what will uh keep on adapting and growing, which is positive, is people's use of data. Yeah. Um, the desire to understand data. It's a bit of a male-female divide slightly. Males are definitely into getting the data. It's quite I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. There's more and more females. Oh, it's definitely going. Well, the aura's been big for that, for sure. And that that are quite into you know capturing their data. But yeah, I think you're it would be interesting to see if that is just a gut feel, but it'd be interesting to see the male-female demographics of Aura use because I think Aura Ring is very good for recovery. Perhaps a little less good for hardcore training.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm gonna pick my words very carefully because I know one of the key investors in Aura. And uh I just think it's just yeah, it's less precise for training. Yeah. Um it's really but it also just gets in the way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If you're lifting load and you're doing deadlifts or you know, having a ring on like that. It's a chunkier thing. Yeah, it's a chunky sort of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But the data look, anything which gives you a point where you're um turned on to the idea of tracking and importantly improving. And you know, certain of the wearables, I think I do I'm not sponsored by Whoop, but I like Whoop's approach to it all, is that the the feedback loop on it now is getting better and better.

SPEAKER_01

So telling you And it will do now with AI as it's learning and different.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, AI coaching there's really good. Yeah, um, and then one of the key drivers certainly now is your speed of aging, rate of aging, biological age, and they're all algorithm-based.

SPEAKER_01

What's your what's your ten years younger?

SPEAKER_02

Ten, that's good. Yeah, okay. And I managed to reach a nice minus 0.8 rate of aging uh a couple months ago. So I was I was on 0.8 for a while. Slip back and drift. I think 0.3. I had uh a kind of major uh mental breakdown last week. I lost my battery. I had two days of lost data. Oh, has that killed your streak? Yeah, no, because it freezes it. Does it? Yeah, so you if up to about three or four days you you freeze the streak. Oh, yeah, you've got them do five days to unlock that uh that streak again. So there's that, but also it shows you how much well, two things happened. One is I was annoyed because I couldn't get the two nights of data, and I lost you know two exercise sessions as well. This is really honestly it's messy.

SPEAKER_01

We need to have a chat outside of it.

SPEAKER_02

In a big way, yeah, exactly. So uh there's that. And then within that, one of the first thoughts, even for me, that came to mind of when I had no charged up strap to wear was I could miss it, it wouldn't matter. And that's a really weird thing, too. I mean then looking at purely a data-driven approach to what you're doing it for, and that's madness. Yeah. So there's definitely potential for data overload.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, completely. And and look, you know, I think we need to interpret a lot of this with a grain of salt. And you know, I will always try and tell patients or um friend or athletes that we w we're working with that okay, data is key, super important, but you also need to listen to the body and have that sort of gut feel about well, actually, how do you feel? What's going on with your body? Yes, okay, you might have got a red recovery because you didn't sleep so well that night, but actually it doesn't matter most of the time. And you can still perform that day. Okay, if you have a run of red recoveries, okay, something's going on. Explore. Yeah. Um, but I think that you know the data needs to be taken with a a degree of caution.

SPEAKER_02

It does. And that's the reason why it's clever with the AI version now within these things is that it's getting smarter at being a better coach. Yeah. So it's telling you that thing, it's nuancing the information a bit more, um, telling you to actually kind of back off a little bit. And actually it teams it seems to just tell it tally slightly better than it did before with that question, but it's still just data collection, it's still an algorithm, it's still just that telling you what to do. Um, but it's improving and improving. So I think that's going to keep on getting better. And that married up with the social exercise, uh, you know, creating teams on these things, actually, it's really great. Yeah, yeah. Um, so that whole thing of meeting up, linking that with like a Strava and doing your competitive bike ride or doing that run or whatever you might be doing. This is all good developments that are that are positive for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, completely. So we've touched on okay, you love your infrared sauna, and okay, there's questions over infrared versus um your old typical sort of thing. Well, the data's large beyond the typical one, yeah. Scandy sort of sauna. So I don't think there's been a lot of direct comparison, but I I I I I do wonder whether we'll come to a stage where actually the gentler heat is certainly better for women a lot of the time and maybe more beneficial for for us, but who knows? But what are what is what's your view on lots of the other supplements out there? What's your view on some of the biohacking? You know, I have a lot of patients now asking about peptides, for example. Um, and you know, we we have a lot of animal studies to suggest it's beneficial, but there's not a lot of human RCTs out there showing one that it's safe, which is a a concern, but it's been taken a lot, so it is relatively safe. But two, how can you be specific that it's doing what it says on the tin?

SPEAKER_02

Between peptides, NAD, NMN, rapamycin, metaphorin, GLP ones, it could go on and on and on. Uh, which ones do you you go for? The honest truth is for most people, it's very hard to actually know which ones are best unless you've done really extensive blood testing and have someone look at it who really knows what they're talking about to understand what's right for you. So do you take anything? Yeah, I do. So the ones that only because they the most research-based ones that we know are safe and good to go for. Um, vitamin D3K2. Yep. Um so that's a given. I think that's a good thing we live in the UK. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So everyone should be taking without question. And uh I go between taking 3,000 and 5,000 IU and nice guidelines are really quite low on that. Yeah, they are. Yeah. I think they're sort of 500 IU per day. Yeah, that's like sort of not dying. Pretty insufficient.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I think three to five thousand seems to make sense. Um doses that you hear about kind of being at 10,000, and I just don't think you can absorb that much, but it's probably okay. Uh but three to five thousand makes sense. Uh creatine I take on and off. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you just forget to take it.

SPEAKER_02

Uh I need it for more cognitive, then clearly. So um uh I just I think that's uh I feel like if you retain some water with it slightly. Yep. So I think they can get this kind of fake puffiness in the muscles. Yep. I'd rather know what they're actually doing. Um it might be um as you're being a little bit there, maybe, who knows? Yep. So I go through a spells of doing that for a month on and you're taking protein.

SPEAKER_01

And that's a very, very safe supplement. Super safe. Like five milligrams a day has been heavily researched. Yeah. And actually it's interesting. There's there's there's a lot of evidence for creatine.

SPEAKER_02

Massive. I do actually take that one more really for this cognitive protection to make sure that that's a down-the-line thing. Um, so taking that one, um, I take um a probiotic again. I got on and off that one, take heights right now. Okay. So Sophie Medlin, who's our gut expert, uh, created the formulation for that. So I trust Sophie. And when I first started taking that one, um, I thought it was I thought, well, I don't need it, I'm fine. And um took it for a month. And I thought, I didn't think I needed it, but actually I feel really great. So taking that um for no reason specifically, just actually it feels better for sure. Cool. Uh that one, uh, zinc, every guys need guys need zinc on a regular basis, uh, magnesium three and eight, yep. Um, which I take in the evening. Um, so that's the sort of sleep thing. Um, that's pretty much it. Okay. And then occasionally do an NAD infusion. Um jury maybe out very slightly. It's a very good question. So mitochondrial health, um, but the research doesn't necessarily prove that 100%. Do you f feel a difference with it? Again, it's a case of yeah, I think I do. The problem right now is what I found when I first started doing that was um by chance, after doing a a sort of big infusion of a 750, then I would uh go and meet you know friends for a drink or you know, a couple of drinks. And when I'd had an NAD infusion, the impact of the alcohol was zero. Yep. Um so that was interesting. Zero.

SPEAKER_01

Nothing or much less.

SPEAKER_02

Nothing. So all the the again data driven stuff, nothing.

SPEAKER_01

Um but just you know, usually a alcohol, your next day your HRV would be through the floor if you have you know more than two two-ish drinks or something, probably.

SPEAKER_02

So in the numbers, give you exact numbers on this. My HRV would normally be around between 60 and 80, 85, somewhere there. Um, if I have one drink, it goes down by a small, small margin. If I have two drinks, it goes down by a solid 25%. Yep. If I have three, I might as well take the strap off. Yep. Um, so it really affects my HRV quite significantly. Um after NAD, zero change. Yep. Nothing at all. Interesting. The change now is I'm not really drinking, so I can't really measure it. And uh how we measure NAD's actual outcome on mitochondrial health is tricky. Yeah, it is tricky. So um I do it occasionally. Okay. Um I go in phases of taking NMN for the same kind of reason to make sure I get the the kind of the production of that anyway, but that varies. Um the infusion thing, I am you know, I'm I'm sort of the jury's a little bit out on on doing them. I don't believe we can absorb a great deal of persistence.

SPEAKER_01

But a lot of it's probably you know passed through pretty pretty quickly. Um but I think you know, there's there's a lot of people who you know we use infusions all the time in terms of medicine. And clearly you know, increasing blood volume and and and getting through things in the system very, very quickly. But is it as effective for different supplements and vitamin?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and this is where the sort of peptide argument comes in is you know, there's a whole host of peptides that are out there. Um, you know, are they safe to use? Are they fine to use? Um, I tried using um MOTC um about uh two years ago as a daily injectable as an experiment, see if that worked. Um was that a cycle?

SPEAKER_01

So you're gonna do it. No, I just got a batch. Two times.

SPEAKER_02

I just tried it out for a month, see if it worked. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

And uh you bought it online, did you?

SPEAKER_02

I I bought it from a respected uh doctor who got it from somewhere.

SPEAKER_01

And um because at the moment, peptides can only be prescribed through research and development purposes from um from doctors. And there are quite a few and some that we work with who are using it for those purposes. And it's been used in the longevity space for quite a long time. So it anecdotally the safety profile looks okay. But you know, there hasn't been any hard RCTs and human trials that I've seen to show that.

SPEAKER_02

The acid test really is, you know, my my son is 21, my daughter's 23. Um, if I they said to me, could I take these things? Should I take peptides? It would be a straight no. Yeah. So on the basis that the gut feeling with this.

SPEAKER_01

Well, my mum took the peptides after an ankle fracture.

SPEAKER_02

Sure. I think it's, I think, with all due respect to your mum, my mum, I'd actually kind of dose them up with whatever because actually I take that risk of getting the recovery and make that work. When someone's younger and they've got high cell turnover, um, the concern I have over the high cell turnover rate, which is good and positive, is that with an additional thing that might make that faster, what else are you creating? And this is this little unknown. Yeah. So that's concern. So I take a bit more of a chance later.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Which is a little bit similar to the NMN and what's that doing down the line from, you know, doesn't accelerate any risk associated with taking it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, anything you try and do which um increases the the nervous pathway, then all those you know, positive benefits getting better cell regeneration is great until until it's not, um, and you got the yeah, a cell too many or a divided cell that's a bit rogue. So um I'm just sort of slightly a jury out on it, and I've got some great conversations with some people who really do know what they're talking about in a major way about how to then create the hyper besmoking version of this and stack it well, um, and take their lead on that because I'm just very much now not doing it on the basis of the just in case they they turn rogue.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh it I my gut feel is that we'll probably be using peptides and they'll probably be more regulated over the next five to eight years um as more data comes out about them, because anecdotally I've got lots of patients who have used it and swear by it. Now that's is it placebo, who knows?

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's like stem cells, though. The stem cell therapy, you know, it's um again, people swear by it.

SPEAKER_01

And if you if you're gonna pay 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 for something, you want to feel that it's going to bloody work. Um and look, we've used PRP, a derivative of uh uh or mild sort of precursor of stem cells for a long time. And you know, it it it works in certain situations. It can work in certain situations. Um but stem cells uh still the the jury's out. The science is really solid, but actually the hard RCTs aren't there.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no, we know that um certainly with PRP, yes, we it works. We know the exosome work that can work in um certain scenarios too. The stem cell work, um, you know, I talk to stem cell experts and they call swearblind, it does everything and it's all great. Um and then you see the evidence. They're making a hell of a lot of money for it. Feel my it's all great. So um no extent of it all. Yeah, that's right. And uh the the research seems to show that maybe it has possibly in certain orthopedic settings a form of a packing out, some form of anti-inflammatory effect. Maybe do you feel better? Yeah, is that good for you? Yeah, does it help to solve the problem? Not really, yeah, um, but for a short time goes away for a while. So that's all fine. And maybe that reduction in inflammation or the increase in mobility gives a chance to train the thing better if it's either in a shoulder or a knee or something, and then it's stronger. But if it's degradation, degradation is degradation. So um, so yeah, with the high prices that stem cells are, it needs to be solid and proven. There is research on animals that is good, but again, these are animals. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I mean, I think there's lots of things, interesting things out there that we're looking at, but actually there'll be quite a lot that probably fall by the wayside, and there'll be a few that actually we're we're looking at um and using a hell of a lot more over the next sort of four or five years as more evidence sort of comes out there. But I think the the the solid base of what we're doing will not change. It's those standard pillars: strength and conditioning, you know, your cardio within that strength and conditioning, sleep, stress management, good nutrition, and social. And those six key lifestyle pillars will remain.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, for sure. I think there's the the bits that I think are most exciting and interesting going forwards. I do think stem cell therapy will reach a point where certain things get proven. Yeah, at that point, then I would I would take the plunge and jump in. Uh I've got friends who've done already the full you know whole IV thing of living for longer and so on, and they say they feel amazing. I think we'll look at that in 20 years' time and see. Um, but there'll be something in there perhaps that is working, and that's great. But until I'm fully sure I'm not doing it, but I'm tempted. Um with um you want to spare 15, 20k in your back pocket then, do you? It's just hanging around. It's just that, but just in case base when that's all ready. Um with with exosome work, you know, I've done exosome on my head uh for can I make sure the hair stays in there. Yeah. Um so and I I know from the the hair count within the maybe maybe maybe it's too late for me.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe I need to I need to get in there.

SPEAKER_02

Well the point is there's kind of evidence these things can work. Yeah. So you pick and choose your weapon and go with that. And if it's a safe thing and doesn't harm you, then it's fine. And that's just where the whether that's stem cell, uh, whether that's on peptides, yeah. I'm just, you know, I'm I'm almost there with some of them. I'd l I'd love them to work. I'd love to say, yeah, they're great. I'm probably like a 75% yes, which means it's not good enough yet to go and say yes, go and do these things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I and I think in um, you know, we see a lot of patients where we're like, okay, right, well, we're a little bit stuck here. So actually, the you know, a PRP or stem cell, okay, there's not really the downside unless, okay, to the to your wallet. Uh uh, you know, the other option is you're heading down a surgical pathway. So, you know, sometimes it's worth trying these things. And, you know, peptides, they appear safe. We don't have the hard evidence yet. But if it's that risk-reward sort of ratio, if you're an older, you know, and you're trying to stave off, you know, a a bigger procedure, then maybe there's an argument to be had for that. But I think you need to look at it on a case-by-case basis.

SPEAKER_02

You do. I mean, the same argument happened with um, you know, TRT, with testosterone replacement therapy, where if you ask someone 10 years ago about this, then it's no, it's gonna be bad for your heart and it's not great. Well, it's now you know being researched so well and used so successfully that we know that in the right hands on the needy individuals, yeah. Um, then it's fantastic and extends life and improves performance in terms of your brain fog and energy and muscle mass. Um, the again, like all these things, the abuse of testosterone is vast and that has huge downsides and it's gonna be devastating people, and it really is. So I think all these things are in that that sphere of just give it a little longer, just get the research data, see where it's at. And I think that some of these will come through as being actually, we know that I don't know, MOTC is great to use. It does improve mitochondrial health, it's been proven to do that, and therefore it's worth taking, but it's just not fully there for me yet.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Cool. Interesting. So uh Matt, just sort of wrapping up, it's been pretty interesting. We chatted about this stuff quite a lot, but it's been nice to sort of get it on camera and and on and in audio today. But some practical advice for people wanting to optimise their health. If if we've got a bunch of people in their 30s or 40s and they wanted to invest a little bit of time, what should they do? I think the answers are probably spoken uh about it all, but what should they really try and prioritize?

SPEAKER_02

Well, the key thing they have to get done for certainly every week, if they think about um tracking durations, forget buying a tracker on that, but just track it yourself, how long you do the cardio work for. And think of this you know, zone one to three cardio, the point where someone's you know that you're puffing a bit, but you're you're working. You still hold a bit of a conversation, but it's not just easy, yeah. Um, so it's a bit of a myth that it's kind of you can have a you know nice conversation. It is that just about be able to talk, and that's okay. In that sort of feeling for you know 30 to 40 minutes, three or four days per week. Yep. If you do that, um, and nothing else in the cardio, don't even try the for the high intense, just do that one thing alone.

SPEAKER_01

And if you haven't done a lot of training, trying to dive into that high intense training. That is yeah, that is not fun.

SPEAKER_02

It is very, very start with that basic, that zone two type approach, four days a week. So it's gonna be two, two hours fifteen a week of that. That's great. That's your cardio done. That's a lot, yeah. Yeah, well, it's not straightforward. You want to live for you know the longer or better, then this is no cake walk. Yeah, it has to be some work goes in. And actually, when you break it down, it's not that much, but it is. You've got busy working life and that then you've got to fit it in somewhere, but we do. Um and then you've got of course got to go lifting heavy um when you're ready to do that. Um, certainly twice a week. Yep. Twice a week's enough. Yep. So, yes, you can do three, four, five. But if you hit the twice a week and you work in this approach of doing super setting, agonist, antagonist, yeah, do a push and a pull thing within that one session twice weights at a level where they haven't got to be super heavy actually. You can do you know lifting for 12-15 reps, yep. Provide the last two. Reps are this kind of couple in reserve. You could go maybe one or two more, but you're almost at the end. Yep. Three, four sets of that, and maybe one to failure in the major muscle areas. If you do that twice a week in each area, you tick the box on that. The third thing I say to do everyone should really think hard long and hard about is to just stop drinking.

SPEAKER_01

Um alcohol that's a big call in this UK in in our UK society, which is a very big drinking culture.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is, it's huge. And you know, it's something which um data driven, research driven, anecdotally driven, um, you know, a hundred percent I see people who when we bring the alcohol down to not even zero actually, if you have two days a week in which you have maybe two drinks.

SPEAKER_01

I think that yeah, I think alcohol is a big part of a lot of people's lives, and there's no doubt it's a it's a toxin. But if you're drinking at a very moderate amount with some food, you know, it can be that's a social that's a social occasion. And for a lot of people, I think that cost benefit um it probably feels about right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the the the danger with it is that people are not very good at stopping. Yeah. So it's that frequency thing where suddenly I think this happens with age too. People get to their kind of you know 40s, 50s, and that kind of drinking two nights a week suddenly became four or five. Yeah. And rather than being one drink, suddenly became you know three or four. Yeah. So it's that thing about that gradual creep, and people lose track when they actually sit down and honestly approach it, the levels surprise people constantly. And trying to achieve great change and uh really true health span changes and alterations, um, I think it's almost impossible with that degree of alcohol going into the system. So I think that would be the third thing, and it's not zero. Um, but I think if you can give yourself two you know freedom nights per week where you have one or two drinks, yeah, um, make it high quality um and enjoy it. Yeah and in a social environment and with food. Yeah. But then really, you know, really all back in apart from that. Because everyone's gonna love you here. Yeah, I know, exactly. But we've got we've got to sleep well, we've got to recover well, we've got to have less anxiety, we've got to make sure we've got good digestion, we've got to make sure we've got good, clean, healthy blood, a liver that can actually function well for you. And it's hard to do that when you're going beyond a certain level of alcohol.

SPEAKER_01

So I sort of termed a five-three eight approach with exercise. Five exercise sessions. Five exercise sessions a week, three of those are strength or cardio, depending on who the individual is. And then 8,000 steps a day, because we just need that functional load in. Um and I think that for me, you know, the WHO guidelines for exercise, minimum 150 minutes a week. Yeah. And and that's and that's what we need to try and achieve. Um but you know, I like you, I don't have lots of time. And actually, I try and cram in my strength sessions in 30, 45 minutes. Doable.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's definitely doable. Look, there's there's no you can certainly do that. Um I think I would just take the viewpoint um that you have to make these choices. Yeah. It might stretch the day. Yeah. So it could be a case of you know it's not an easy choice. It may be it's first and earlier, it may be yeah, yeah. It could be the way that it is. Um, because again, I'd stress this whole point of if we don't do that now, um, you know, when Yeah, where where's when's the same?

SPEAKER_01

A year turns into two years, five years, ten years.

SPEAKER_02

The I'll do it tomorrow approach.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay. So start now. Get your exercise in, quit alcohol. Everyone's gonna love you.

SPEAKER_02

I know, so popular.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But Matt, super uh fascinating, super interesting. Um, always enjoy chatting, and thank you for your time today.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you, mate.

SPEAKER_01

Excellent.