What's In The Box
The brand new podcast from BOXTEC. Join us as we invite guests from retail and hospitality to discuss the issues of the day, with one unique twist: uncut, unedited and each episode just fifteen minutes long - because we're busy and we know you are too.
What's In The Box
The Andy Gomarsall Story: World Cup Winner Turned Sustainability Advocate
Ever wondered what connects a Rugby World Cup champion with cutting-edge sustainability? Andy Gomarsall MBE takes us on a fascinating journey from elite rugby to pioneering the circular economy revolution.
The conversation begins with Andy's unique perspective on professionalism, having signed his first professional rugby contract in 1996 after years of the sport operating on an amateur basis. He shares remarkable insights into how Sir Clive Woodward's meticulous approach transformed England's rugby culture—from changing into fresh kit at half-time to psychological tactics like painting visiting team rooms in depressing colours. These seemingly small details created the winning edge that culminated in that unforgettable 2003 World Cup victory.
But the most compelling part of Andy's story is how seamlessly these elite sports principles translate to business success. Now serving as Executive Director at n2s Limited, he's tackling one of our era's greatest challenges—electronic waste and resource scarcity. His company is pioneering "urban mining" techniques that recover precious metals from outdated technology infrastructure, creating a circular model that reduces environmental impact while generating economic value. Working with major telecommunications providers like BT, they're processing thousands of tons of equipment from decommissioned networks, turning potential waste into valuable resources.
The parallel between sports excellence and business innovation becomes crystal clear as Andy explains how culture forms the foundation of high performance in both arenas. "If you see successful businesses, I can pretty much guarantee their culture is phenomenal," he notes. His perspective on generational differences in sustainability awareness offers both urgency and hope—while lamenting the "lack of speed to change" compared to sports, he's optimistic about younger generations who instinctively understand circular principles.
Ready to discover how championship mindsets create business transformation? Listen now and gain invaluable insights from someone who's excelled at the highest levels in two completely different fields.
Welcome to what's in the Box, the brand new podcast brought to you by Box Technologies. Powering retail with purpose. Boxtech delivers innovative and market-leading customer engagement solutions that turn business ideas into a performing reality, From design and integration to ongoing support and maintenance. We're with you every step of the way. I'm your host, Andrew Busby, and this podcast is perhaps a little different to what you might be used to. First of all, it's audio only, totally unscripted, and we normally run for anything between 15 and 20 minutes, because we're busy. Our guests certainly are, and we're sure that you are too. Our guests certainly are, and we're sure that you are too. So let's get right into it Now.
Speaker 1:For those of you who are rugby fans, the date November, the 22nd 2003, will live long in the memory, and if you can recall that date, that should be a strong clue as to the content of this particular episode, because my guest today is none other than England Rugby World Cup winner, turned IT sustainability expert. With a playing career spanning over 12 years, he won 35 England caps, was part of the England team during three Rugby World Cups and of including winning the tournament in 2003. Since his retirement from rugby, he has spent time as a commentator for various TV broadcasting stations and now, being passionate about the circular economy, he is executive director at N2S Limited and we're certainly going to get into that. Awarded an MBE for services to rugby in 2004,. It's an absolute thrill to welcome Andy Gommersel.
Speaker 2:Good afternoon.
Speaker 1:Andy, as I said, when we're talking before this, we I guess have to start with the rugby. I can certainly remember exactly where I was on that date in 2003. And we all remember fans of rugby remember the drop goal right at the end that clinched it. But tell us a little bit and I guess the real thing here is what, over your years playing a sport at elite level, some of the lessons that you learned, and then perhaps we'll get into how that perhaps can translate into into business yeah, I mean, I ultimately is so fortunate to play professional sport because when I started a well, I was six years old but then left school at 18, you know the game wasn't professional.
Speaker 2:So we were most people that had jobs and they were playing and training Tuesday, thursday evenings, you know. So it was a hobby, effectively, and but they were playing at top level, weren't being paid. So you know, when I was the lucky, I guess, the transition I had, I was the lucky one from school that immediately went into playing at the top level and a year later we're having a contract put in front of us to sign to say you're going to get paid to do your hobby. It was the greatest gift anyone can give you. So the game wasn't professional, for probably I would say 1996 was the first professional contract I signed and I got to say it probably took two and a half three years for us to really understand what that professionalism meant.
Speaker 2:I think one of my coaches did something really really smart, which was to recruit a previous professional rugby league player, a chap called Inga Twigamala, who was playing at Wigan, one of the best renowned rugby league teams in the world, and he happened to be a New Zealand, born in Samoa, international, and he really you know, just by the way he acted, the way he trained, what he ate, he didn't drink.
Speaker 2:He, you know, rugby was a big social drinking environment and it really taught us a huge lesson. And he'd been doing weights a long time. So he turned up, you know, massive ripped, and we were just these kind of scrawny, skinny, probably chubby, as as the, the, my, uh, my fellow athletes, teammates would testify to, and, and that was the first really sense of okay, this is serious, yeah, we were. We were on the pitch having fun. So there were a lot of lessons then and I think the really the, the. For me, it really became professional when I was coached by sir clive woodward, the depth that he went to. It's no coincidence that we won the world Cup in 2003 because we were the best prepared team in the world.
Speaker 1:He went into. I remember years and years ago it was an O2 event, I think, and he was speaking and he went into this and one of the things I remember. He talked an awful lot about the detail which perhaps you'll go into in a minute, but one of the things I remember is that at half-time the England team changed into clean shirts and, I think, shorts as well, and I remember him saying the away changing room at Twickenham was not quite as good as the home changing room. So tell us a bit about all that attention to detail that he went into.
Speaker 2:Well, he found out the most depressing paint you could buy and put that in the away changing room. So when the team walked in, they were all so happy and can't wait to play England, and 40 minutes later they're depressed. So there was little anecdotes about how smart, but, as you say, attention to detail. And the kit was great because we were happy we got two sets of kit every game. I mean we couldn't get any more kit, but it was fabulous to have two England jerseys. You were able to give one away or auction one for charity. That was superb.
Speaker 2:But the real reason he did that was when you're running out half time, both teams are absolutely exhausted. One team looks fresh, clean and tidy and the other looks bedraggled and you know, exhausted, just, you know, absolutely brilliant mindset games, in a way, mind games. So you know that that really that innovation, attention to detail, it really genuinely inspired the players and you think, well, what else can we do? What more can we do? Not only that technology really was as an impact to us as players, the fact that you thought on the pitch at Twickenham, huge stadium, 85,000 people screaming at you, and you feel this noise descending on you. You see all these players around and you think, where's the space?
Speaker 2:Well, technology enabled us to understand where the space was and I remember one particular Jason Robinson was playing when jason got the ball. The crowd just went silent and went and just the whole thing, the you know the anticipation of jason getting the ball. He was so quick, billy whiz, and he got the ball and it went. He got tackled and one of the things we said at halftime was there's just no space, clive, we can't see it. And after that game he really took that on board and he paused the video and showed us the whole pitch, a 360 view, and in fact there was probably, I'd say, 13 players in and around the ball, loads of people in the ruck, and he said you're telling me there's no space?
Speaker 2:And literally drew on that digital board. He drew exactly where the space was, where you could kick into, you could pass into, and clearly then somebody like jason could run into. There were so many options and that that really ultimately, we looked at that and we went, wow, okay, now we get it. So having that 360 vision, that that uh ability to understand that if you did a certain thing, there would be space elsewhere was, was amazing for us to learn the game, and there were. I could spend probably three hours talking about professionalism, the depth of detail we we had, you know, the, the book that we, um the senior players, wrote about our team rules and team ship rules. I could, I could go on and on, and that was realistically what I learned in terms of professionalism from Sir Clyde.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I'm sure that most of us, myself included, who have never played any sport at elite level, certainly played plenty of sport but wouldn't have any comprehension of that level, that kind of level of detail which I guess today has only accelerated, amplified, call it what you like. I think now for many years all the players have a transponder, don't they? In their shirts. Yeah, all their movement is monitored and I'm sure there's so much data.
Speaker 2:Technology's moved way forward, hasn't it, compared to what we had? I remember the brick laptops that we were given and players didn't even know what they were or what to do with them at the time. And then the next thing we're doing is you know, he realized that the vision of the game was important and yet we train all our muscles to like bosh into one another and hit each other with, yet nobody was actually practicing training another muscle, which is the eye. And so, you know, in games, you know you can get tired, your muscles tire and your eyes are no different.
Speaker 2:So we had eye coach training with Cheryl Calder, who was an ex-international South African hockey player and she it was a doctor and devised methodologies to train your eyes so that your peripheral vision was second to none and exceptional. So that if I go to a breakdown and my eyes are tired and, you know, exhausted physically, I won't see that break down, the blind side. But if I've got the, you know my mind's fresh and I've got the vision in my eyes. I don't, I'm looking at the ball still, but I know there's a gap on the right, and that again, just an attention to detail. And you know the focus on preparation and training to to yield your maximum performance. You know, I genuinely created a blueprint and now technology just takes it another level. I mean literally and you know, many more levels to us old people yeah, no, absolutely so.
Speaker 1:You're now Executive Director at N2S and we'll hear a little bit about the business in a moment, but before we do so, are there lessons? Have you been able to everything that you described there and, as you said, we could talk for hours about the level of detail and professionalism in the England rugby set up at the time. Are there things that you've been able to translate into a business life? And I guess the obvious thing would be working with a team, but what sort of things have translated?
Speaker 2:I think there's three points really for myself. One is when you were in professional sport, you were very keen to understand what business we're doing and how, and so I joined a board while I was still playing and I saw the professionalism of that board, the high net worths that were not running the business but were investing in the business. I just saw a level of professionalism. I thought in my head I was like wow, our meetings are no way as professional as that. So I knew that I was at Quinn's at the time. I knew we had to go up a gear and mature. They were my age at the time 50-year-olds was a 30 year old and I thought, you know, I thought we were professional. I was wrong. And then I witnessed a lawyer who was our QC actually, and I witnessed him in the World Cup and how utterly professional, you know, the legal representation is. And I was like, wow, okay, we need to go to that level in terms of our rugby knowledge and rugby professionalism. And so then when I get into business, all business wants to know is how did he do it in sport? The irony. So what I realized is many businesses wanted to understand how the success had come about and they've taken.
Speaker 2:Sport has the beauty of just. It's so pure and you understand because you watch it so much. If you're a sports fan, you can get to see why and understand. And leaders are so evident in a game of sport, less so in a business. And so I think what sport can do in business is give confidence to leaders and businesses to know that they're on the right path.
Speaker 2:But the main thing for me was sport teaching business culture. I think there's a 100% lack of culture in many organizations and culture was number one for us in sport. So if you see successful businesses, I can pretty much guarantee their culture is phenomenal. So I think that was that was the one thing. And then the other thing in training that we used to do is we used to, in big world cups, go and train with the military, and that was another lesson for me is to understand what leadership truly is when you're leading team into battle. We would see we were leading a team into battle, but it was a different battle compared to and we have huge respect for our military, and I learned a huge amount in terms of leadership and and maturity that it gave me. Really, by the end of my career. I felt like I'd nailed it, and all I wanted to do was go back to my 18 year old self and give me all that information and experience. So, yeah, so those are the kind of lessons I learned yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mentioned um n2s a lot to hear, because I you know it's a fantastic story about sustainability zero to landfill. I know that you're passionate about the circular economy. Tell us a bit about the business yeah.
Speaker 2:So the business started by taking technology away and you're either reusing or recycling and you think, well, that's normal, that happens all the time, and what you find is that it isn't. And we have this wonderful economy now called the circular economy. In fact, the planet is circular. It has the ability to regenerate itself, so it is truly circular upon our planet. But we as humans have, just, with our lack of circularity, we we've created a linear economy where we take from the earth and we make something and then we throw it away. So we're actually damaging our planet and you know, we just need to reduce that.
Speaker 2:So that gap report circular. You know, I implore anyone listening to this to go and see the circular economy gap report written by circle economy in deloitte. The global economy now is 7.5 circular, so it's a huge opportunity and we our ambition is to take more devices back and we want to create all the way through that moment reuse, recycle, but also a clean way of refining the metals. So it today we are actually refining pure gold and pure copper out of networks and we're able to put that back into manufacturing, whether it be a watch, jewelry or the future IoT device that Box might sell in the future and that's still at 7.5%. And we throw away our critical raw materials because we're so beholden on mining and our mission is to reduce the need to mine so much and and affect our planet. So I'm very fortunate that I had a career with purpose. You know purpose in terms of playing sport at a high level and winning a world cup.
Speaker 1:Now I have this utter passion and purpose to to leave this planet in a better place and so just to kind of explore that a little bit more, so your, your customers, who you're engaging with, just give us a sense of of of that and and the scope, the breadth that uh n2s covers yeah, the best example I can give you is bt, and, and the telephone exchanges that we've all communicated via for decades, that, that copper network because we're relying on fiber now and and voice over the internet.
Speaker 2:That is actually closing next year and by january 2027, everything from a landline copper point of view.
Speaker 2:That pts pscn network is shut down, it's dead, it's gone. So who's going to recover all of the technology and the metals across six and a half thousand buildings and we're very proud to be a supplier to BT and an innovation partner to turn that back into its critical raw material and we call that urban mining. Last year we did 3,000 tons of processed equipment and because of that surge in terms of technology to fiber, our business will grow fourfold overnight If we continue to do that. We have to keep winning contracts to be able to do it, but that will go fourfold per annum, rich in the critical raw materials we need to protect our country as well as provide economics and jobs that are so needed in this current climate. So, yeah, that's a great description of our business. We take something that has been used for decades, that has created a sustainable platform and communication. We are now turning it back into something that we can remanufacture the future, iot, etc. So, yeah, I'm very fortunate that we have that type of customer.
Speaker 1:And one more before we're pretty much out of time. But my background is retail and so, of course, when you talk about sustainability and zero to landfill, there are some very obvious examples, fashion being one that comes to mind. But do you think that, when we're talking about this type of thing, what you're doing, do you think that I mean, I guess it's a B2B business? Yeah, but I'd imagine that to me, I think that the consumer, we're all consumers, but we're not educated enough in terms of this, and it seems that there's quite a gap there and it, whether it be you know that that shirt that we no longer need and we'll probably if it doesn't go to a charity shop, it's probably going to go in the bin and end up in landfill, and we know what happens there, that produces toxic gases and all the rest of it over years and years. Do you think, from your perspective, that there's a need for more of that education, as I say, even though you're b2b, perhaps for the consumer as well?
Speaker 2:yes, of course. I mean, and that's part of our role and you know, in an industry and our and our job, it's becoming more and more apparent because everything's becoming more and more expensive. So why wouldn't you focus on the stuff that you've already had and used to repurpose? So there becomes a tipping point. But my last really piece is it's education to certain generations the older generation, because they've been used to and grown up with that type of linear economy methodology. Actually, my children, and that, that generation, whichever generation it is, but you know, the pre-20 year olds, they're growing up living in what they now understand as a circular economy, so they're going to be used to it, so it's going to absolutely accelerate quicker than it has done.
Speaker 2:I've been so frustrated the, the lack of speed. You know, in sport it was all about speed. In business there is definitely a lack of speed to change and so, but that, the, the new generation, they get it, that's normal to them, whereas my generation and the older generation, they, they're, they're the uneducated ones. So I'm I'm very hopeful for the future. And they're they, my children and the younger generation, they're going to be the solvers of a lot of the challenges that we have in the world. So yeah, I'm, I've got room for optimism, as always.
Speaker 1:Great, and that's a great note, a very positive note to end on. Andy. Thank you so much. That was absolutely fascinating and that's all we've got time for for what's in the box for now. New episodes will be dropping every two weeks, so please stay tuned and if you want to find out more about BoxTech, please follow the link in the description. Thanks to Andy, and thanks so much to you for listening.