Live From Retail Technology Show

Building A Retail Agency With Mary

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to What's in the Books coming at you from the Retail Technology Show at Excel. Now I've managed to find a quiet corner and managed to grab none other than Peter Cross. Peter, welcome. Delighted to join you in this quiet corner in the midst of the mayhem. Midst of the mayhem, indeed. Yeah. Somebody yesterday, it was our good friend Sarah Cole, who I know a lot of people know. I think she described it as the whirlwind, and I said, no, I think it's more of a maelstrom. But either way, it's busy out there on the floor. So I think that most people will obviously know Peter, but I guess you're probably best known for setting up a rather successful retail agency with the very well-known Mary Portis. We'll talk a little bit about that. Then there are the good number of years, I think for 2013, something like that, where you joined John Lewis. And in particular, something that is dear to my heart and be really keen to get your thoughts on customer experience and so on and so forth, which is what you were doing in your role there. And we'll we'll spend some time at the end because I know that you last autumn, I think it was September, you brought out a book, Start with a Customer. So yeah, definitely want to hear all about that. And of course, in between all of that, we will hear about your latest TV appearance, which was The Battle of the Brands, which is quite an interesting one because it featured John Lewis and Primark, who, well, today, yeah, not sure when this uh episode is going to be aired, probably a few weeks uh from now after the retail tech show. But today was the announcement that Primark had been demerged from um ABF. So we'll talk a little bit about that. But enough of me. Let's uh I I kind of wanted to begin this with the the journey that you were on. And yeah, tell us because I'm sure people would be fascinated by you know your your years, the nine years you you were working with with Mary on setting up uh the uh the agency. Yeah, I mean we had a I mean they were the they were golden years.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

We were we were kind of mates and sort of neighbors, and Mary had already set up the agency actually when we first met. So she was in the early years of that, and I was a client. Apparently I was the worst client she ever had. Incredibly difficult. I always insisted that she came to the meetings. These are the stories she's told many times. I wanted I wanted to spend time with her, but we really connected and we had a passion for for retail, for customers, for high streets, for communities, for people, I guess. And that passion led to some magical, marvelous things, some fabulous clients, big and small, some bonkers stuff on the telly, and uh, and a slightly bizarre project with the government and saving the high street. But they were the best of years, Andrew. They really were. I mean, I remember I remember at one point I said, You are so funny, you know. You yes, she knows her stuff, and she's a world funny, but you are so funny, you deserve a television programme. And we went out there and we got one.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the the saving the high street. I mean, I I I remember that. I remember because I kind of grew up south of uh South of Croydon, and that was one of the towns. And I remember going to that particular area and all the rest of it, and I think I was probably one of the uh critics of it, but looking back, it was clear. I mean, everybody said, Oh, she's doing this for uh you know self-promotion and the TV programme, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But actually, it was a well, it was a bit of a poison challenge, though, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

You know, worked with good. She certainly wasn't doing it for any good any glory because there was no glory in it. It was hard slog. Thank God for the associations, for the for Helen at the BRC, for it was Ice Gourley, then it was for Boots, who was running BITC, all the the Associated Conventions, all these associations that gathered around us and tried to help us reach a number of conclusions that have stood the test of time, Andrew. You know, if you read that report now, nothing's changed. A lot of the courses, the digital dynamics changed, all these things, but ultimately the keys to a successful fight, it haven't changed. And we're proud of the work, even though it was it was bloody hard work.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, following that, we had, I think, not one but two reports from uh from our friend uh Mr. Grimsey on the on the high streets.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

There were a lot of people throwing stones.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

I'm eternally optimistic. And I said, Listen, just join us. You know, just don't throw stones. And there were a lot of stones thrown and a lot of other reports. And I mean they were they were fantastic times, but I'm I'm I know Mary, we're proud of the work, however difficult it was.

Inside John Lewis During The Peak

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. I mean, she is she is very I've seen her on stage plenty of times at retail conferences, and she's always great value, always has something to say. And probably the one person who I think, yeah, it was a couple years ago at the retail technology show. I think she's the one and only person who kind of dominated Kate Hardcastle when she was being interviewed by Kate, who again knows her stuff. Uh but um Mary kind of um took over that. Uh but uh it was great fun. It was great fun. I mentioned John Lewis, so let's let's talk about that. And you had um, I believe it it started um uh with um being communications director with John Lewis, and then following that it was customer experience uh director. Now, this was in uh what 2013, 2012, 2013, you began there. Tell us a bit about because from then until now, I mean it's been very well documented, the kind of roller coaster that the partnership has been on. Tell us a bit about what it was like working there in those days.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

I you know, uh again, I feel very lucky because they these were the golden years, you know. I had Andy Street wasn't the last then, you know, who was the who was an extraordinary leader, and then Craig Ingalls, who was probably the best marketeer in the UK. Phenomenal people, uh, and a very unique business, enjoying great success. Knew what it was as a brand, as an offer, some of the best people in retail, and they've gone on to many, they've gone on to really, really great things. And uh and I learned a huge amount, not only you know, not only about I mean you can't certainly learn any, but I learn about this unique model, this unique ownership model that has its complications and challenges, like like many great things. But I but I, you know, you when you when you've been a consultant and then you learn life on the other side of the of the fence, and you go back, you you have a much rounder perspective on your your own expertise and so on. So I um I I really, really loved it. I feel you know very saddened about what happened in the past few years. God willing, they are now getting the the brand, brands back on track. Brilliant people have gone in there, many of which have returned there. But there's work to do, you know, particularly at John Lewis, because they were they they they they were they were, as you say, as well documented. I don't I don't be the the first to to throw stones, but they were years at at the very best the brand stood still. Uh and and uh and a lot of people were you know were caught up on that, not least the customer. So the fantastic news that it's back on track and um and doing great things again.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

And I think there was a lot of Sharon took a lot of flack in in the media. I think I was one of the few who didn't join that particular bandwagon because I'd okay, you know, we won't debate here you know the whys and wherefores and whatever, but when you look back at that period, and of course, we were in the post-Brexit years, not making any comments on Brexit, positive or otherwise, but that was the situation. We were then going through COVID, and it was kind of it was it was a tough time for a lot of people. And you you could argue that okay, that was maybe the best that the partnership could have been navigated through quite choppy waters, but I think maybe it, yeah, focusing more on I think the the current leadership team across both the businesses is clearly very strong, and as you say, getting getting it back on on track, and there's some wonderful things. I think that I think Waitros, if I'm honest for me, is uh uh kind of uh punching below its weight. I and what I mean by that is I I I just think that there's space in the market for a really, really artisan, high-end, not all the stores, but just a handful, really, really foodie uh Emporium.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a very serious review underway of the role of the physical estate. You know, because MS has you know has has advanced substantially in the last few years. So I'm quite sure, knowing the people that are in there now, that that they will be really reviewing how to distance themselves further from the marketplace and the value, yeah, you know, the value, the discounters, you know, the value brands and and and MS and all the other things that are happening in the food market. So that they will be doing a lot of a lot of soul searching about creating a a greater gap in terms of the assortment and the physical experience particularly.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

No, I I agree, and it's gonna be interesting later this morning. I'll be uh doing a far side chat with Mark Lundell, uh, who I know you you you know, chief retail officer at Harrods, and I'm sure that uh the famous food hall will crop up in our conversation. And you kind of think, well, not replicating it, but taking maybe some cues from that and putting that into a number of uh waitress stores. I know the store at Coldrops, uh, King's Cross has got the has got the the the school, hasn't it? So that there are some elements of some really, really good. I just think it's like there's so much more that could be done there.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

I totally agree. And Mark, of course, came from that John Lewis school. You know, he he went through all that sort of time. Uh and as and as Waitros, you know, and as we as customers step further into this experience economy, when physical experiences have to do work so much harder to to keep us going back, Waitros is perfectly placed to play around a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

It's hard when you've got so many shops, and it's really expensive. Uh, but but if there is a brand place to to to to explore that, it is Waitros. So I'm I'm sure it's on the list.

What Great Store Experience Means

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah, yeah. So let's um talk just a little bit uh about your thoughts. You mentioned you know the experience economy and so forth. And what what is customer experience, what does great customer experience in physical retail mean for you now?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

What does that look and feel like it is, I mean, it's a big question in the in the time we've got. You you've I think the start point for me is the customer. The customer behavior has changed fundamentally, and we flip between transacting and interacting at the toss of a coin, yeah? So there's times that we're on best price, seamless, don't want to talk to anybody. And there are times where we want to slow it down. Fast, slow, logical, illogical, you know, price sensitive, less price sensitive. And it's not sort of category dependent. It's time of day, it's who or with, it's all this, all these dynamics are at play. So you've got to know what the mindset is. Do they want to slow it down? Or do they want to be largely in physical, you've just got a little bit more time. So you're less, you're you're less running in and out, you know. And I think all the experiments in self-serve I found fascinating. A lot of them didn't start with the customer, they started with cost efficiency and just uh and less mindful of actually what the customer might need at the end of the transaction. And I think the great retailers know that the physical experience has to play to all the senses. It has to play to all the senses, it has to be an expression of the brand, it has to deliver something that starts to build your loyalty and your relationship with a brand beyond simply buying stuff. And the people clearly play a really important role in that because you are looking for a deeper level of expertise than maybe you can get on YouTube channels. You're looking for a human connection that maybe you haven't got anywhere else in your life anymore because so much of it is spent digitally, you're looking for inspiration, or none of those things, or something else. But I think if you start with the needs of the customer that that haven't changed at all, actually, how they best change, but you start with the needs of the customer and really work out is my store about transacting or is it about connection and building trust and inspiration and developing a relationship? Then you see the face of the physical store really differently. And all the concept stores worked that out years ago, but too many high street stores haven't yet shifted into that space. And so much energy has been taken by technology and the digital experience that not enough energy has gone really into evolving all of the physical experiences.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

So I I've long felt, I mean, even back to my days at um superdrug, but I felt the retail, I think it still does, and interesting your view on this. First of all, it has a still has a bit of a command and control culture from the center out, and it's we know it's it's siloed, and it treats its frontline workforce as a cost. And I've always thought, well, particularly now, no, that they are, depending on how many you've got, but let's say you've got 10,000 people working in your stores, you've got 10,000 brand ambassadors out there. Why not look at them like and it seems that it's a it's a missed opportunity. I think we're going in the right direction, but I don't know where they're yet.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

I think it's a massive missed opportunity. And it is, it's everything's everything is cyclical, everything is circlable. The the the ex the huge role that technology has played and will continue to play in our lives will inevitably mean you're looking at the human stuff in a different way. Um and you you know customer satisfaction has gone down despite the huge investment in technology. Customers are saying it's a bit painful, it it's it's it's it's it's a bit exhausting, it's over-automated, and I miss the human empathy, connection, trust. I miss all that stuff. And the only way to get it now is probably to pay for it. And that's where we're going, is that service becomes something you've got to pay for. And actually, you will excuse the cruddy store fit, you know, if the member of staff just makes your day and makes your staff. But you don't see anything else. The investment in Storfit can be less if you if you ain't got the money, just making people happy, empowered, fulfilled, and as you say complicit in delivering the customer experience you want to see because they've got a skin in the game, or they're empowered, or they're enabled, or they feel proud to work there. Pride, Andrew, unlocks so much in business. Discretionary energy, it unlocks so much if you're proud at work. And I agree with you, not enough businesses have explored, really seen the potential of the people on the front line. Yeah, yeah.

John Lewis And Primark Are Converging

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Now, I wanted to change. I think if I was an American podcast host, I think what I'd say I want to change gear or change something or other, but anyway, or double-click on something. But right, so what I mentioned uh in the in the intro, the Battle of the Brand. So that came out, I know it was filmed last year, it came out to uh Channel 4, I think it was, or five, whatever, a few weeks ago. John Lewis versus Primark, which is quite an interesting concept, but mentioned that because obviously you've got background in John Lewis, you know the business inside out, and on the day that we're recording this, it's been announced that Primark are demerging from their parents' company ABF. Well, it was for me, I watched it and it was it seemed to be trying to make the premise that actually the two brands are, as opposed to being poles apart, they're actually converging. Would that be a fair what what was it for for you in terms of the contrast or the or the similarities between the two?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

I mean, the the you know, initially you can sort of be all aghast and just no, Craig even that's not a horrible idea. But you it's why I was so intrigued and wanted to be part of it, because actually most of the traditional competitors uh of John Lewis are no longer around. And and John Lewis does not live in a vacuum. And firstly, in the same way that the waitress customer will sneak in the back door to little, in fact, they're going in the front door now, you know. Uh and there was a long period of time that waitress to some extent was in denial of that. But you know, it's it's that they are shopping at both ends, you know, of the of the burglaries. And it's the same for John Lewis's customer, you know, it was ever seen you know, even a few and a few years ago, it seems a bad thing. Then it seems a little bit clever, you know, to pop in and get a little treat. It's dark saying, why not? You know, it it it isn't it isn't clearly the same in every aspect. It's not as pleasant a shopping experience, you know, so it's not as comfortable, it's not as elegant. And yes, there are elements of quality and and and and and brands and all that kind of thing. But the the the assortments are getting closer. So the breadth of assortment in Primark is growing by the hour. The brands that they're bringing in, we spoke in the program about sort of Disney and you know, uh Retora and all these different sort of partnerships and collaborations that are bringing in, same with John Lewis's. The presentation of product is much, much stronger. They're looking at window displays, all the traditional retail levers beyond the digital world that for some bizarre reason they've never really explored properly, but I'm sure they've got very good financial reasons for not doing because it's expensive. The gap between the two brands has closed to more uh of a level than I suspect the partnership has recognized. Because it's it's it's it's it's you know, you just don't almost don't want to even face into the fact that the Primark customer is kind of there. But if it's if it's not Primark, then kind of who is it? You know? Who is it? And you can start comparing yourself with fashion retailers and all this kind of thing, but it's not that you you can do a pretty big shop now in Primark. You know, you probably can't get all your Christmas gifts.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

There's a there's there is difference to they'll get into that, they'll do gifting.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

But they're gonna get into that. They're determined to hold you in the store for longer, hence opening you know, Greg's and hair salons and all kinds of physic experiences like John Lewis with personal styling and you know, home design service and all that kind of thing. So they will be very aware that and I I if I was a betting man again, I will say there's probably some project at Primark, which is Department Store of the Future, you know, Workstream. Well let's just gobble all that up with all the things that we did well.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Well, there, I mean, their store I visited, I think it was on the day that it opened in Birmingham, the Bull Ring, is and that was a former shopping centre, I was telling. That's amazing. The one in Madrid, uh Gran Via, is takes the breath away. So it not only can they do it, but they're prepared to uh to do it. So yeah, fascinating. And I and I think for me, when you mentioned John Lewis or Primark, one of the strong things about both brands is that people generally will know exactly what you're referring to, what you're talking about. They're not confused in any way by it.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

100% are two extremely strong brands.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Can both flex. You know, the similar to what we were saying about WeCho's, it's really important that John Lewis now really steps constantly into its next next generation, John Lewis. Yeah, um, because the landscape is changing daily.

Writing Start With A Customer

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah, yeah. Now we've got a few minutes left before I know you've got to get back to the show, and so have I. Start with a customer. So your book, which came out uh in September last year. Tell us a bit about that. Okay, start with the customer. I was gonna say what's it about, but you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Well, I mean, it's customer experience, customer service. I call it customer service just because the customer calls it customer service. They don't say about a terrible CX this morning, they're saying I've a terrible service. So you start the customer, you start with the words they use.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Believe they don't refer to shopping as being omnichannel. That's only that's only us in retail. It's only us exactly.

Where To Get The Book

SPEAKER_01 21:34

So you you know, you it's it it it it's it ain't rocket science. And I thought I was gonna be doing a book about AI and trying to get into the possibilities of it, but I spoke to 10 chief executives from 10 sectors, and they all said, Yeah, we're excited about the new enabling technologies. Some are going to be great, some are like all things are not. But customer service is cultural. It's cultural. It's how we lead, it's how we make decisions, it it's it's how we listen to the culture, it's the language we use, it's it's our it's our cultural defaults it's how we train recruit etc etc so that's that became the topic so it's it's a journey into build and a lot of businesses are frightened of culture because culture is one of those murky sticky old things that nobody really owns on the board and it's a bit of HR and it's a bit of you know it's a bit of everybody but it's you you have to get into it and all of these businesses gave me some ground rules to building service culture where the customer and I've tried not to use the word customer centric and and all these kind of things but ultimately it's about how do you truly pivot your business to and your culture to to to to to retaining customers winning retaining and and building relationships with customers. So it's it seems to have been successful actually I I'm you know because a lot of the I think a lot of people do books when they get to my age and um and then and then a lot of them you know go nowhere. But I've been very very helped by a lot of sectors a lot of fantastic brands have had me to talk to to to to to talk to them and uh and and I've really enjoyed it. I can honestly advise it to anybody although I don't need to advise it to you and and it's did I read it's on the syllabus at uh college or university? Yeah yeah it's it seems to have got found its place academically which is which is the dream isn't it as well yeah the greatest joy is when you see people on the tube reading it uh which has happened you know and you think it's it's having an impact and it's an and it's a dead easy read and the idea is if you're you know everyone's busy and no one wants to read a whole book but you can look at every page and get a little nugget of nonsense yeah along the way so so when you're when you're on the tube and you see somebody read it do you offer to sign it for them or or or keep quiet the ego has landed no you wouldn't do that no you no we get smug and and and think you know what we do we do all these things in life don't we to hope to try and make a little difference and and if it's made difference to a business then that's exciting. Yeah so where can people find it tell us uh where they uh in in all your books you know you know uh everywhere and I know you know and if people people do find it interesting and want to you know reach out and say hello then um that will be that'll be a thrill yeah Peter it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for those insights that's all we've got time for in the what's in the box thank you Peter Cross we're gonna get back to the show now fantastic thanks Andrew