What's In The Box
The brand new podcast from BOXTEC brought to you by Redline Retail. Join us as we invite guests from retail and hospitality to discuss the issues of the day, with one unique twist: uncut, unedited and each episode just twenty minutes long.
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What's In The Box
From Saturday Shifts To Retail Leadership
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Whats in the Box is brought to you by Redline Retail
https://redlineretail.co.uk
Welcome And Guest Background
SPEAKER_01Welcome to What's in the Box, brought to you by Boxtech, powering retail with purpose. Boxtech delivers innovative and market leading customer engagement solutions that turn business ideas into a performing reality. From design and integration to ongoing support and maintenance, we're with you every step of the way. Now, our guest today is sales director at Vision Express and David Crulo. And I think the group should mention is Isilor Luxotica, and I hope I have the pronunciation of that correct, but my guest will certainly put me right if I didn't. So he began his retail career aged 15 as a Saturday assistant at Olympus Sports. For our older listeners, you'll remember Olympus Sports, and has spent his working life in the retail industry. He built a 22-year career at Marks and Spencer before moving into senior leadership roles at the body shop and later within ECLO's Luxotica's optical retail businesses. Now sales director for Vision Express and David Clulow across the UK and Ireland. He leads a 600-store network focused on performance, customer experience, and developing high-performing teams. Having grown up in retail, he believes passionately about the industry and creating environments where colleagues feel supported, valued, and able to thrive. He is also proud to be an ambassador for the Retail Trust and to champion the well-being of people working across the retail sector. Please welcome, welcome to What's in the Box, Will O'Connor.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much, Andrew. It's very good to be here. I'm a podcast debutant, so I'm really looking forward to speaking.
SPEAKER_01Now, before we go any further, go
Getting The Name Pronounced Right
SPEAKER_01on, correct me on my pronunciation, please. I've got the Luxotica part, right?
SPEAKER_00But yeah, Luxotica is easier because Italian, I think, for Brits or English speakers are phonetic language. I think we tend to keep it simple by just saying E L. Yeah. But I think if that helps. But as Esilor Luxotica, it's complicated when you've got a French, you've got a French name and an Italian name compounded together, but Esther Luxotica, I think.
SPEAKER_01Estel Luxotica, right. Good. Easy for me to say. So I mentioned there in the introduction that you started your your retail journey a little while ago, I have to say, at Olympus.
SPEAKER_00I celebrated my 40th anniversary last month of my first ever job in our in our wonderful industry. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Actually, I started talking about that. I started I usually say say people it started when I was at Superdrug at 99.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01But actually it started quite a way before that. Beals, Department of South.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, I remember, of course.
SPEAKER_01And before that, in just before that, a Saturday job, also in Bournemouth, at a music store, Minnes Music, they had a few branches around Bournemouth and Boscombe. So you go in there on a Saturday and just play around with the guitars and all vinyl, I hope, Andrew. Vinyl?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, not that vinyl in your record store, I would have thought about it.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, it was a music instrument.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Musical instruments, I got to go to the music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, guitar, yeah, yeah. So you'd have a play with the instruments when uh people work in. But anyway, let's talk first before because we're gonna cover a little bit of of ground and want to talk about because I know as I said that you're passionate about the industry and helping people in it. And also healthcare on the on the high street. But before we get into that, your your start at Olympus
First Jobs And Early Retail Lessons
SPEAKER_01Sports, what can you recall about about that and about those those days in retail?
SPEAKER_00I think I had a bit of retail in the blood because my mum uh worked originally, I think, for MS in her late teens, going way back. But do you remember the days when the government, believe it or not, had industrial training boards? So the government would take responsibility for training people in industry. And there was a retail training board called the DITB, the distributive industry training board. And for all of my childhood, my mum worked for the DITB, so she would go and deliver training in retailers. That would have been in the 70s and 80s. So I think I grew up kind of playing shops, as well as playing football and cricket, playing shops at home, and I was very excited. I just probably turned my 15th birthday and I decided I wanted to go and get a job. I lived in in Epsom in Surrey, as you said, and I applied to a number of retailers. My heart was set on MS because I knew MS had the best hourly rate, and I also knew that they sold off all the out-of-life food at the end of the day at 50% off. I applied to MS. I had an interview, but I was told I was too young because I'd just turned 15. I got a lot of rejection letters back, but I was strangely thrilled with all these rejection letters because really, for the first time in my life, I had my name printed, this headed paper from the likes of Boots and John Menzes and all these retailers, and they rejected me, but I was pleased with the letters anyway. But anyway, Olympus uh gave me an interview, and I remember starting there very clearly. My first day in our industry was a Thursday late night in July '86, and I can remember stepping out onto the shop floor and having really no idea at that point that I was suddenly part of the production. You know, I was part of the organization. I worked for this, I represented this company, and people expected me to know things and have information. And I was pretty thin on information that first night. But I thoroughly enjoyed my year at Olympusport. I learned I I suppose I gained my passion for product and working with customers, and and what I love about our industry is it's like a river that never stops flowing. You know, the lorries are driving through the night, people are arriving in the food retailers starting at uh the Krakasparrows in the morning, and of course, these big out-of-town shopping males, they trade so late, they almost go around the other side, don't they? So I I kind of loved the rhythm of retail right from the beginning. But then I did apply for MS, and I was very glad at the age of 16 that I got a job there with that great hourly rate. I think it was 167 an hour when I started, and all of those 50% off Cornish pastas and freshly squeezed orange juice that I suddenly could access on a on a on a Saturday night.
SPEAKER_01So tell us about that journey at MS, because we do hear a lot about the fact that retail is probably one of the few, if not the industry, where you can literally start on the shop floor and work your
Marks And Spencer As A Retail School
SPEAKER_01way up into the boardroom, if you like.
SPEAKER_00Exactly right. And um that's I think one of the exciting things about our industry, isn't it? You you you it will be difficult to rock up with a hospital and take a job as a as a cleaner and end up as a as a surgeon or at the law courts as a as a receptionist and end up as the judge, but you genuinely can rock up in a retail business as a as a as a youngster or a not so youngster, and there is really nothing that would stop you getting from the top if you've got the you know a bit of brain power and probably more importantly some endeavour and a and a and a work ethic. But you know, I actually took my I took my O-level options, Andy, because I'm old enough to have done O-levels on the basis of joining the RAF as a pilot, but my eyesight soon did for that. That was the only reason I did physics at O-level. And then I took my A-level options on the basis of being a barrister, I was going to be a lawyer. But that was all swept aside for two big reasons at MS. A, I I uh I I met a woman and fell in love, and uh 32 years on from our marriage, she's still my wife, and she was a a young management trainee for Marks and Spencer. But I fell in love with the business as well. I fell in love with this extraordinary organization. I'm biased, I've got kind of green MS blood running through my veins still to this day, but you know, probably right up there with being one of the greatest, if not the greatest, sort of retail schools and retail businesses in the world at that time. And yeah, it was infectious again. I I loved the product, I worked on food, I worked worked on uh in the menswear department, and I realized MS had a A-level training programme, so my university plans were were torn asunder by my ambition to join MS. And I did my two years as a Sassy Boy, which was great, and then I started on September the 11th, 89, as a management trainee in Romford store. Funnily enough, exactly the same day that Simon Roberts, who's now running Sainsbury's, uh started. Simon and I grew up in the in the in the business in those early days together. So, yeah, that was my journey from the shop floor, I suppose, into having one, I think I'd one counter of men's trousers to look after in uh in on the first floor in Romford back in September 89. And once I'd mastered that, they gave me a second one.
SPEAKER_01Who who was the who was running to this? Was this pre-Stuart Rose?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, no, well before Stuart. So um a guy called Sir Richard Greenbury, I'm not sure whether he was sir by that point. Rick Rick Greenbury to Sir Richard Greenbury was the chairman and CEO, a guy called uh a man called Lord Rayner had had recently stood down as as chairman, and yeah, you know, when you're a when you're a kid in the business, you look up at these people and they are they are the retail gods, aren't they? And I don't know, maybe I'm getting old nostalgic, but I'm not sure they quite exist in the same way these days.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I don't know. I mean I i it's it's funny, isn't it, that the you know the the CEOs of some of these big uh retailers I think are still held in pretty much in high esteem on on aren't they?
SPEAKER_00Uh of course, no exactly right, but I suppose when you're uh when you're an 18-year-old and uh you had one of the grown-ups come into the store, it was very inspiring in many ways because that illustrated that there was a you know there was a route to a great career and a great working life, and and that's certainly what I've enjoyed. I'm I you know I I I continue to love every minute of it along with it's my third great sort of sports passion, uh football, cricket, and and and retail. I I as somebody said to me recently, if I wasn't I wasn't paid to do it, I'd probably uh I'd I'd you know I'd probably do it for free. Don't tell my employer that. Um but no, I I I love our industry uh so much. I I enjoy every moment I spend in in stores and on on our high streets and shopping wells and meeting the wonderful people who who who work in it. So yeah, it's uh it's it remains a thrill for me even into my fifth decade.
SPEAKER_01Wow, well. So on that again, as I said earlier in the in the intro, that you're you're you're passionate about this, and we we read and we hear a lot at the moment about retail and you know as a is it a a good, valid career for young, whether they be school leavers or graduates. And we also sadly hear a lot that it it's just a it's a stepping stone to getting a proper job. So we get a Saturday job and and uh I think that um perhaps it's viewed as well it's it's hard work now, of course, with sadly the increasing number of uh cases of abuse of retail workers and so on and so forth. And and I think it it's putting people off. What what
Is Retail A Real Career
SPEAKER_01what's what are your thoughts on on that? And do we need is that it do you do you feel that is uh uh an accurate perception, and and if so, what what can the industry do about it?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm certainly f firstly a big believer in the merits of uh young people taking you know Saturday evening work in in retail if those jobs are available to them. Now, of course, we know that the physical footprint of our industry has contracted a lot over the last 25 years or so, so it's pretty clear there are fewer of those jobs available than there used to be. But it seems to me that both retail and hospitality are the perfect opportunity for young people to learn some of the really basic skills required to be in the workplace: teamwork, hard work, endeavour, speaking to people, communication, being organized, and you know, many, many young people will learn responsibility and the value of responsibility in their families growing up, but some won't necessarily, and we have the privilege to be able to help people acquire those skills when they come and work for us. I also think there's a lot of self-esteem and benefit for people earning a bit of money that they've earned themselves, you know, and having a a pay packet at the end of the week or the end of the month and and and giving them a taste for the fruits of some hard work and some endeavour. So it seems to me that our industry is vitally important to allow you know old older kids, I suppose they are teenagers, young people, people in their early twenties, to learn those skills, whether they end up working in retail hospitality is sort of neither here nor there, really, but it allows them to acquire those skills that are required. And then as far as uh you know the longer-term career options for people, uh I mean it's pretty clear, as we both know, that you can make a very fulfilling, enjoyable, rewarding career from working in this industry. And it's very interesting to me working for both. I was at the body shop when we were part of L'Oreal, and we're now part of Esther Luxotica, as you as you said, Vision Express and David Clulow are part of that global business. And we are a business that is a is a retailer. If I think about EL, we have 20,000 stores globally, which is a lot, but we're also a manufacturer, wholesaler, marketing organization with you know famous brands that many people will be very familiar with. And what I find is a lot of my colleagues who come from the marketing, the wholesale side of the business, the manufacturing side of the business, they want to work in the retail business. You know, they're they're they they are fascinated by and drawn to this direct connection with the customer. It's a real life business ours. You know, we're dealing with the direct, the end customer every day, but we're also I I think privileged to work in the town centres, the city centres, these exciting big shopping malls. So I see a lot of people uh wanting to move over to work in retailing, and I just think it's a wonderful career option for young people and maybe people who aren't see young people who who who want a job change, you know, whether you work your way up from store manager or or join in a you know in a more senior capacity. I often say to people who work in our stores, you know, we don't have a secret training school for future area managers, regional directors, sales directors, and the MDs, our stores are that training school. So you can join the business in our case as a what we call an optical assistant, so sales assistant level, but you know, there really is no limit to where you can go. And I think that's that is one of the things that makes our our industry wonderful.
SPEAKER_01And presumably with your your type of business being in healthcare and um with Vision Express and um David Clue and it's a very personal service, isn't it? I mean we know that retail is is a is a people human industry, uh that's well established. But I can imagine that for you, Will, even more so because of the type of service that you are delivering.
SPEAKER_00I think that's exactly right, Andrew. And we care for people when they come to see us. One of our customers will typically spend probably an hour in the store, which is a much longer period of time than uh they would spend in most retailers. We're unusual because we're selling on the one hand all of these famous brands, Ray Ban and Oakley, which are two of the brands that we own as a business, and then we sell Chanel and Prada and Jimmy Chew
Optical Retail As Care And Style
SPEAKER_00and you know all of these famous fashion brands, all from all of these extraordinary with all these extraordinary stores, these fashion houses. And then on the other hand, we're also a medical business where we employ, you know, well over a thousand optometrists and opticians who work in our business every day. So on the one hand, we're dealing with people's medical needs, their clinical needs, and we're selling a highly regulated medical device. On the other hand, we're selling a fashion lifestyle product which is a very important part of someone's look, you know, when they put their spectacles, their sunglasses on, or indeed their contact lenses if they don't want to wear spectacles. That's a very important part of people's aesthetic. So the fact that we sell a you know a Ray-Ban medical device or a Chanel medical device is a is a unique feature of an optical business. But what is true is that you wouldn't work in our business doing what we do if you didn't like people and caring for people wasn't a it's one of the pleasures of of of of doing what we do. Yes, you've got the thrill of hitting the sales targets and the interest in product and and that's you know the famous buzz that you get from retail, but you also get this you know, it's a selfish pleasure in many ways, caring for people. It feels good to look after people, and we do that with many tens of thousands of people every week.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and of course yours is a very going back to the you know the very personal nature of it, you know, we're seeing more and more examples on the high street, and particularly in grocers and so on and so of various forms of self-service. Well, that wouldn't apply, I'm sure, for your businesses. So it has to be that direct, one-to-one engagement.
SPEAKER_00It's a very important part of our of our mission, really, is that the uh you know I do believe that retailing is important and good for our society. I believe that our town centres and our shopping malls are an important part of the fabric of our country and the work that we do as retailers is a part of that. And yeah, we're dealing with a particularly intimate personal part of that. When people come to us, they come, we we you know, we we we we both go to the opticians, you come with a certain sense of vulnerability, don't you? When you go and sit in the big chair and you put your trust and your faith in the expertise and training of these wonderful people who work across our industry. And it's a very it's it's a it's a meaningful moment because you want to know the results of the health check that's carried out are okay, and you want to know whether your prescription has changed and whether you're gonna either get the opportunity to buy a new pair of glasses or you're gonna have to or you're gonna have to shell out on them, depending on which way you you look at it. But what's true is it's uh it's an important moment for people. You know, you won't be surprised to hear that I speak to people who who say that their the hour that they've spent with us and the care that we've given them will have been one of the more meaningful points of contact that they've had with people that day. And that's a very humbling position to be in, and therefore we of course strive as as our whole industry does, you know, we strive to look after people as well as we possibly can, and we're caring not just for their their medical needs in respect of their eyes, but I think we're meeting an important um social function uh as well. I I agree with what you said at the beginning.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and how does that translate to the high street? I mean, I I live in uh Sussex in East Quinsted, so fairly typical, relatively small old market town. I was there earlier today, actually find out having um my annual eye check and I just apologize. No, well, I'm not going to, but I just apologize. So I'll I'll put that right. And I I was walking along the the high street and and um I think East Grinstead is probably fairly typical. All the banks and building societies have shut down and there are still big holes left on the on the on the high street. A lot of other but you see hairdressers I think I think East Greensted has something over 30 of them, but you also see competitions, and I guess that that's because you can't you can't do that well, some people do do it online, we know that, but I'm not I'm never really sure whether that that works or not. So you've got businesses that that are personal and need to be physical as opposed to as opposed to online.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And and I think if we uh step back for a moment and take a bigger view of our industry and the role that retailing plays in
High Street Change And Healthcare Growth
SPEAKER_00providing the fabric of town centres, we've seen an enormous change, haven't we, in the period that we've been working in our industry, and we probably joined it when bricks and mortar retail was we maybe didn't realise at the time, but was coming to the end of something of a golden age. And and you know, I know you're a big fan of the history of the big department stores, and we can we can look back to, I suppose, the end of the 19th century, which was about these big department stores. Of course, we know about Selfridges and Harrods in London, but you know, right across the country. Um Liverpool's a city I know very well. George Henry Lee, you'll remember, which became the John Lewis Bainbridges in Newcastle, House of Fraser in Glasgow. You mentioned Beals in Bournemouth. I would I you know I would guess that nearly all of these businesses were born in the 19th century, and then the big chain multiples like Marks and Spencer, but and others emerge very strongly in terms of growth between the wars and and and post-war, and all those famous names, again, many of whom have disappeared, of course. Uh MS, of course, are still there and going strong, but you know, British home stores and Littlewoods and um and Everham's, of course. And then, of course, we saw shopping malls being uh open, the sort of armdales of this world back in the 60s before our time, but we know that's when that sort of boom in shopping centres. Then through the 80s and 90s, these huge edge of town shopping centres, which are such an important part of the mix today. And you know, I can remember Metro Opening, Blue Water Opening, Lakeside in Thurrock, all of these shopping centres opening and working in many of them. But then, of course, 2000 was a bit of a turning point, wasn't it? And then we started to realise that with the growth of Amazon, but of just e-commerce generally, the high streets and shopping malls acting as almost the stock rooms for people's consumer goods. Well, that just was not going to be required anymore. And we've seen the contraction of bricks and mortar retail. I think healthcare is the it is really the counterpoint story to that for exactly the reason that you said. When it comes to healthcare, people need to be physically present. You can't have an optical or a dental or a hearing aid or a physiotherapy appointment without physically going to a location where those services are dispensed, much as I'd like to be able to go to the gym, you know, digitally online, without leaving without leaving the comfort of my armchair as I can when I'm shopping otherwise, you you've got to go. And you know, in our in in our industry, there's about I think 8,000 optician stores in the UK, which is a thousand more than there were 10 years ago. So what we're seeing is not just opticians, of course, but pharmacy, dental practices. I've mentioned gyms, seems to me, I observe Holland and Barrett have a thriving business, which is, you know, to a large degree a healthcare business. Boots uh the pharmacy, the retail business, they have a strong optician's business, but their boot their their business is uh is an ever-present in in many of the towns that I go to. Seems to me that not only is healthcare a greater proportion of bricks and mortar retail than it ever has been, but it's also getting stronger and it's growing in many of those spaces. And I think that's um that's very encouraging if we if we care about our industry and we care about our our town centres.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, absolutely. We could we got into an area which uh is absolutely fascinating. We could we could talk about it for uh a lot longer than the uh 20, 25 minutes we got. So we're pretty much out of time. So Will O'Connor, thank you
Final Thoughts And Next Steps
SPEAKER_01so much. That's been a snapshot, a little look into your world and your retail journey. So that's all we've got time for for what's in the box for now. New episodes will be dropping every two weeks, so please stay tuned. And if you want to find out more about Boxtech, please follow the link in the description. Thanks so much to Will and thank you for listening. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.