What's In The Box
The brand new podcast from BOXTEC brought to you by Redline Retail. Join us as we invite guests from retail and hospitality to discuss the issues of the day, with one unique twist: uncut, unedited and each episode just twenty minutes long.
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What's In The Box
Why Department Stores Win With Heritage And Community
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Whats in the Box is brought to you by Redline Retail
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Welcome And Guest Background
SPEAKER_00Welcome to What's in the Box, brought to you by Boxtech, powering retail with purpose. Boxtech delivers innovative and market leading customer engagement solutions that turn business ideas into a performing reality. From design and integration to ongoing support and maintenance, we're with you every step of the way. Now, my guest today has over 35 years experience in retail, working with over 200 major brands and for some of the UK's leading retailers in various senior leadership roles, including 22 years at House of Fraser, where he became Director of Planning and Store Development. He created Figital Retail to work with brands and retailers to help deliver physical store openings and expansion, digital brands to open physical stores, and brands and retailers in their overall physical store journey to support and innovate expansion in their existing portfolio. It's a pleasure to welcome to What's in the Box, David Blakeney.
SPEAKER_02Andrew, thank you very much for inviting me.
Frasers Takes On Harvey Nichols
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you. Now I mentioned there in the introduction about House of Frasers, so let's get right into it. I know we're going to talk quite a bit about department stores, which which I'm going to love. So, as at the the time of recording this, it was just this week that Frasers announced that uh they have Harvey Nichols has joined the the Fraser stable. And I wonder what what your take was on that.
SPEAKER_02A bit of a danger for you at the moment, because nine years ago they took over House of Fraser and exactly this way. We were fascinated to know what they were going to do. We now know what they've done. And I think I'm fascinated because to take on Harvey Nichols, which is a luxury department or of course House of Fraser wasn't, you've got to have great relationships of it's what understanding what their vision is, and I don't think anyone knows that at the moment. Now people will be saying, are they going to turn it in and put all their own brands in, like flannels and people like that? But Harvey Nichols is a lot more than just a few brands who are under the Fraser stable. So I know that Harvey Nichols Knightsbridge has spent quite a lot of money on all their floors but the top floor. How do they shake that up? Will they keep that particular store or will they turn that into just a flannel store? And a couple of things. So what about Edinburgh? Or if you go to Leeds, they've got a beautiful flannels they've opened in Leeds. So they ain't going to put a flannels into the Harvey Nichols there. So all these regional ones, it would be very interesting to see what they do. They've obviously done, will do very good deals on the property, because let's face it, anyone saddled with a high property cost and the business rates, it's very hard to do what you want to do. So I think they'll have some flexibility there, and I'm sure they worked it out. But the big thing is if you don't have a Harvey Nichols flagship, the rest of Harvey Nichols collapses really. Maybe not abroad, because when you look at how well Debanans are positioned abroad versus here, I think the Harvey Nichols abroad will be really good for them. I think they've got a lot more flexibility. But it's the UK I'm interested in. And that's a big thing. And it I suppose for me the only way you can go with any department store in that luxury sector is the way Harrison Selviches have gone. And you've got to take that model really, because it works for them. And it be interesting to see whether they take a little bit more that model, whether they put more I mean, food and beverage to me and Harvey Nichols would be critical. They were always known for food and beverage. How will they work that? They haven't done the top floor there, so they'll have to invest in that. But when you look at Selfridges and their food and beverage now, Auto is a typical example. I know the San Carla guy as well. That auto is incredible. They need to do those sorts of things to bring people in. The corner shopping Selfridges, all the little ideas that I think Harrison Selfridge's done, which are massive earners for them, it's that sort of innovation that I think can make a big difference to them. Will they?
SPEAKER_00And of course, there's a question of um what's being said is that uh part of the the turnaround, it needs a 60 million injection. Now, I'm not sure, I don't know if you know whether that is in infrastructure, building, IT, or all of the above, but are Frasers going to be willing to willing to do that?
SPEAKER_02Well, the in integration will be interesting whether they integrate it into their own systems and that obviously cost. I think a lot is down to they think that's what money they were needing to spend in their stores to upgrade. So I think important that was the investment in the stores. Yeah. Because you can't just carry on as it is. And it'd be interesting to know what what are they going to bring to the party that no one else can do, and that would be interesting as well. So I mean, I mean that Knightsbury site is absolute prime.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if you get that right, they'll make a lot of money out of it. What they do with it. So, but no one knows, do we?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I know we're speculating, but it is always always quite fun to do that.
SPEAKER_02I think the problem is you can't wait too long. Like Fraser's of Glasgow, they've never they bought the building, they haven't done that investment they should have done. And if you're not careful, you lose your customers very quickly, unless they can see change. So they've got to surely be on a bit of a time frame in order to keep customers interested before they all disappear.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I've heard that some of the brands are a little the luxury brands a little bit nervous because of course of what happened a couple of years ago at Matches Fashion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00They purchased it in December and sold and put it in administration in the March.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which, yeah, slightly strange. I remember I uh did a firesight with with Nick, Nick Beat in the April. Um and I can't repeat, you know, he he did say a couple of things off off air as it were, but clearly things weren't didn't go quite according to plan with uh with that. So so hopefully, you know, the same if there were mistakes, I don't know, but hopefully the same thing won't happen with with Harvard.
SPEAKER_01I don't think it will do.
SPEAKER_02I think with the constrails anyway, I think the industry would love them to come out and tell us what their plans are. Now, I think they've probably not had time to think about it. I think they do the first thing to think after. Certainly with House of Fraser, it was done that quickly, they get and then they try and work out what they're gonna do with it. But if any at least they got the Fraser's name out of it, that was a good thing for them.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, and of course, with this one, they they were up against Next, although I think Next might have pulled out earlier in the summer. No, I it that was a really strange, strange one. Didn't quite didn't quite get that. The next the next customer would I would have thought would have been confused by if that had but just talking about next, I mean they've they've just opened next and Fraser's. So the old house to Fraser of Blue Water and the store. Yeah, big, big store. I remember going in there many times. That is now a next.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now I haven't been there yet. I'm planning to go in the next few days. Um that that is a big store to fill. I believe that it is all it is next. There aren't the the concessions, it's not a marketplace or anything like that. Uh so that that's a heck of a lot. So it I presume it is full on, full fat, next fashion and home, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I'm noticing that's doing more and more consolidation, and when they want to then expand their existing store in size. I know Blue Water, I opened that store for Hoff. I remember when we did it. It's quite a rare centre, it's got incredible parking there. I mean, probably three, four times more than anyone else. It's not got great transport links, it's got poor transport, but the footfall in there is enormous. It's a fantastic centre, and I think it's perfect for next. It just fits, it fits them well, and I think they'll become a massive destination.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think it'd be interesting to see whether it takes away from other necks in that area that they're in. Because why wouldn't you go to the big nets with all the car parking? Why would you go to a smaller one? Yeah, when you've got that one. So the one thing I've never heard or read about is does it have then a knock-on effect on their other stores on the way to where that customer comes from, which obviously I presume it's all the Kenk customer and uh the Essex customer as well. I mean, I'm sure they get a lot of the lakeside customer who go there now as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, absolutely. So let's talk about department stores. You know, you pretty much built a spell on on cruise, which we'll
The New Rules Of Department Stores
SPEAKER_00come on to, which is fascinating. But department stores, and I just wanted to get your views on you know, the we we talked about House of Fraser there, we we could talk about Fortnum, Liberty, you you mentioned Harrods, Selfridges, and they're they're all kind of iconic in their own way and so forth. And there's obviously Selfridges. I mean, the sense of heritage you know goes back to 1909 when uh dear old Harry uh opened that store.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh and and with heritage comes community, I guess. I just want to get your thoughts on that and where department stores kind of fit into our our lives almost.
SPEAKER_02I think to me, the department stores that do best is obviously at the luxury part of the market because they're in the right location. So your Harris and Selfages, I think, have adapted brilliantly to what they needed to do. They're, you know, when you look at what salvages have introduced in the last year or two, if you pass it, they're creating a selfies community by their Lordy Cars. And I think they've got three million people who signed up already. They're doing a lot more in the VIP areas, personal shopping areas. They've got that corner shop, their FB's superb, auto is just off the scale in in takings for such a small area, which is probably you can't use for anything else. So it just goes to show you can make department stores work if you know what strings to pull. And I think obviously Harris and South she's done well. And Fortnons, I think more than Liberty are to be honest. Fortnons are absolutely brilliant at what they've done. They continue to grow. And the things they do for their community in that store, the events and the F B side, yeah, it's so relevant what they do that today, who would have thought a department store like that might survive? But they survive because they hit all the the right buttons for all their customers. And whenever you go in there, to me, it feels like such a traditional store. It's got that real feel. I love it in here. And you just walk around, you just love walking around. And I know it's not really fashion, it's more gifty or whatever. And I think the way that's their big bonus is that everyone goes there to buy a gift so they can take it over the present, or you take it home for your birthday presents, and that's what they do well. And they cross that over with travel retail brilliantly. So I think they've managed to nail the thing between the gifts, the food, the heritage, the community, and everything they do just goes to show that they're focused on what they're best at and what they can do, and they're doing really well, which is for me, that's the only way any department store will survive is if you find that niche and you and you and you work here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess that they need to be famous for something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, good. And I've got the perfect so at the moment I'm working on the Jollies department store in Bath. And Jollies
Reviving Jolly’s Through Heritage
SPEAKER_02I did in 2014 for House of Fraser, and when we did that store, to me, everything about that store is heritage, it's 200 years old. Everything about that store is about the Bath community and the in a way, your second community in Bath is the you've got a massive amount of uh tourists there. I think the most visited uh most visited place outside London now in in the country is Bath. Just I think it's Pipped Edinburgh now. So it's that basis that make that store. In 2014, people were saying to us when we were refurbishing that store, don't ruin our store, don't make it a typical modern-day department store. I said, I'll do you a favour. I said, I'll tell you what we're gonna do, we're gonna give you your store back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02In other words, we're gonna focus on the heritage, and actually, we didn't focus on community well at all. That was a really poor side. We did a reasonably good job on the heritage, and we made a big deal about all the heritage. We even put heritage plaques around the store, which were like the blue plaques, and we said, Did you know? And it'd be did you know this was Queen Mary's fitting room in 1853? Yeah, and uh another one, did you know? And we have an air, and because we have buy and collect or click and collect, we put a heritage scene, did you know in 1875? They had buy and collect in a different way. What it was was a horse and carriage, and they delivered 14,000 parcels a year to all on horse and carriage, and that was in the 1850s. So when we talk it's a bit like the milkman syndrome, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02What what was a milkman all that is just evolved into what we've got today without the sort of technology? So Jollies at Bath, in my opinion, is one of the most we the the opportunities there are immense. Everyone in Bath loves Jollies, everyone wants Jollies, and when we talk about the effect on the high street, since Jollies have closed, Milson Street footfall's probably reduced by 40%. Right. Yeah. When everyone knew we were going to take a store there and open, or Morley's were going to open their store there, suddenly all the shops on the right hand side have been let. Me and M open there just two, three weeks ago. If me and M are opening there, it shows they've got confidence. Well, we all got confidence in Bath, but confidence in Milton Street. And the idea is to make that Milton Street almost both that heritage street, but also, I think in a way, it has to be a mixture of fashion, but a mixture of gifts, a mixture of something for the tourists to have, but the locals as well. So the locals what they want and the tourists what they want. And if you can do a bit both, yeah, everyone will be happy. And and that's the way they'll take it. And they're going to push the heritage and remind everyone, this is what this store's about. And you know, up the front they've got a big jolly sign. And someone contacted me the other week, said, I would like to do a guilt guilt edge gold leaf that sign for you, because for four generations, my family have always done the signage going back 120 years. But we'd like to do that one sign and do it as it was done 30 uh 80 years ago, whatever. So he's gonna do that for us. So you've got all those little great stories of what people want to do because it it's in their blood. Yeah, that makes sense. And also, I don't know if you know, but in 2030 they are gonna be opening the fashion, they're gonna be doing a fashion academy there. Or fashion museum. So it's a massive, I think it's a 20-30 million pound investment creating a fashion museum, uh, and it's that's what they need to do in Bath. They want to create more and more things for people to see. So and when you get that sort of thing, we gotta make sure I think Jolly's will make sure that they're in tune with that because everyone's gonna see the fashion, they want to see that. It's all this historic thing people are interested in. So I think that to me could be a great opportunity.
SPEAKER_00Now, talking of which, I was in the uh MS store uh pantheon store the other day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
Why M&S Pantheon Feels Better
SPEAKER_00And wanted to get your views on on that. I I thought it was a fantastic store. They've on the so going up, and first of all, it irritated me actually because the escalator didn't go up. It it was steps of the escalator coming down. But then you saw on the steps, going from the ground, the beauty area, up to first of all, men's, I think, and then up again to Hunwe, they've got the history of MS written on the steps, so you can read it as you as you go up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, starting, I think, from 1938, which is when it first started trading there. But I just thought little touches like that, the way they've done the they've used the the a very cream, some people would say beige, but I'll prefer the cream palette. The fonts they've used on the signage and and how that's been presented. I just thought, again, going back to your point earlier, it was a very pleasant place to be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think my first of all, what they've done on food is remarkable. And I I mentioned previously to I'd say to everyone that I think someone there has implemented something called the common sense book, where anything which is common sense, it's common sense, say on the food, have wider files, have clear signage, just simple signage so you can find things. Yeah, nice presentable cabinets, whether it's open cell or not. Make your bakery exciting. Do your little elements of the bakery or the Japanese food or you know the fruit, make that come to life. And it's just simple things that make that. And if you want to find a toilet, you can find the toilet because the sign says you don't need to ask three people to find it. And that I think they've just applied that rule. And I think every single food, and we as retailers walk around, don't we? And we're always trying to criticize everyone else who's still, oh, they've not done this and not done that. You never say, and and it's a typical thing, or they go, it's great, but they've not done this. I find it very hard to find fault in some of those food halls. I think they might, and I think they've applied that now to fashion. It was interesting because only recently Zara have done on the corner of Bond Street that store. They've tried to Zara take their Shop Fit upper level in a bit of a way that I mean you would argue that a bit of a feel of the MS is a bit of the way that might Zara seem to be wanting to get.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, particularly their store, the MS store of Battersea.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's and there's a little bit of that, but I think they've done it very nicely to suit their own brand, their own brand. But what they've done is they've definitely elevated the brand. And in the old days, you they relied on just great merch, great clothing or great quality merchandise, but always really not nice towards. And now suddenly I think they are able, will be able to attract someone who really wouldn't want to go in MS, but they might buy the odd thing. People will want to go in Ep and shop. Like I will shop in Zara, and you go, but I never thought I would ever shop in Zara. But I like the store and I like what they, you know, some of their t-shirts I love. The same thing, I think, with MS now. It's a nice enough place to shop that it makes you feel good, it's got good fitting rooms, good lighting, easy to navigate, and their clothing matches. And what they've done is made the stores match the the quality and how they've improved in the in the quality of the clothing and the design and everything. They're matching that with the store design now. And I think most people I've spoken to, oh my god, it's amazing. I want to go there again. Yeah. I think people who are on the cusp going, I'm not quite sure if I want to buy from MNS, will go, Oh, it's not a taboo like I'm proud to be in there now. And I think they've done a brilliant job. And I think that's what they're gonna get out of it.
SPEAKER_00I think so, yeah. I mean, and and I could I could quite because one of the things with flagship stores is that they're just that and you know, it doesn't get rolled out. But I could see that they could roll out most of the elements of Pantheon. Yeah, definitely across a large percentage of the streets.
SPEAKER_02You know, I phoned my wife and said, You've got to come home and have a look, it's fabulous.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I've never done feminine before. I have on the food, but never the fashion, so yeah, that says it all, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00Now I mentioned it earlier and we've got a couple of minutes left. So moving away from uh sponsors, well, a couple of things. First of all, let's let's quickly talk about what our new Prime Minister has come out with again earlier this this week of the of this recording.
Business Rates And High Street Reality
SPEAKER_00He's got it in for vape shots and Turk Turkish hairdressers or whatever they haven't done. I I I wrote a an article this week and said that all you need to do is just dust the dust the cobwebs off the Porter's Review and Grimsey One and Two. Take the best fits from all of those, and there you go. You don't have to but but do you think that this is just handing out a few more sweeties, or do you think that he really does feel that the high street and of course if we talk about the high street, we have to talk about business rates?
SPEAKER_02Well, I was a bit when I saw his comments on the vape shops, yeah, we're gonna increase business rates on vape shops and things like that. And you're going, so what are you gonna do? You're gonna say to Tesco's who sell vapes, you're gonna put their rates up as well, because they sell it. So any shop that sells it, you're gonna put their rates up. And why pick on the vape shops? Whatever they think, whatever your situation's vape shops, yeah, it seems like he's highlighting they are the problem on the high street. But it's we all know the problem is business rates, and it's clear. So when will a government get their head around that until you get fixed business rates, you will not. And and the problem is it gets worse and worse because in London you get away with it, you've got enough footfall. Manchester City and the city centres, as you get to the next tier down and the tier down before that, yeah, business rates, they just can't afford to rent, never mind the business rate, and there's not enough footfall. So they've got to at some point, and whether, I mean, what they did with prisons, they brought in uh James Tinson as Lord Tinson, yeah, because he had a bit of an interest in prisons and he's 10% of his workforce prisoners. But they brought someone in from the outside. At what point would they bring in an expert actually into the government to lead that retail overview? British retail consortium are always having a go at them about do this, do this. But they don't understand the reality of the issue with our shots and where the blockages are, and they didn't listen to Grimsley, they didn't listen to Portis. And and I remember listening to David Lamy talking, we're gonna give a million and a half to some town or whatever, and what you're gonna do with it. I'm going, you I've got a clue. Yeah. I wish a Lord Rose or one of the great, I mean, Simon Wolfson, if he ever wants to step down, yeah, it would have been incredible. It's almost so you need a minister for food for retail who is uh understands the problems and what you can do. But until you employ someone like that, if you're gonna be a football manager, you've got to understand football. Yeah, yeah, you can't bring in a government minister on a football team, can you? Because they don't understand it. Well, there's no difference to retail. You've got to bring in someone highly uh and and listen to them because it's all very well burned and having a go at those. But I went on to Watson Street the other week, four sweet shops are closed down, and all they've done is hoarded it up, it's got graffiti, it looks ugly. So it's all very well kicking them all out, but you've got to fill them with something, or if not, it looks like this the whole of the town centre is closed down. Now, Oxford Street obviously is getting better. I think most of those sweet shops are gone. But you've got to don't close them down so you've got something to take their place. Now, the clever thing with Westminster Council is empty shops, some empty shops in Oxford Street, they gave to uh I think called Someday Studios, Becky her name is, and they funded some of those empty shops for small businesses and funded the ability to fill them with interesting new businesses and they helped do it all, and they didn't charge them anything. So they were filling the stores with something a bit more interesting. That's the way to do it, but all councils. If you've got a good council, it will really help as well. And therefore, any council, there needs to be almost someone who can get all councils to be on the same wavelength, but then it's down to money. But to me, to me, they've got to get the right person to run it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Last thing I just wanted to ask you, we're uh we're we're way over time, but that doesn't matter. That's always something completely different to the high street and business rates and Andy Burton and all the rest of it. Retail on cruise ships. Yeah. Now you were telling me before we we sort of recorded a little bit about this, and I just thought really want to cover this because it's absolutely
Cruise Ship Retail Hidden Profits
SPEAKER_00fascinating. Tell me about it because I know you you you spent a number of years and I've got a lot of experience on this.
SPEAKER_02I was fortunate that I managed shops on cruises in the 80s, late 80s, and I was very involved with Carnival when they were just becoming big. And now Carnival, biggest cruise ship company in the world, owned eight different lines. I was very lucky that I had a fantastic relationship with a co-founder of Carnival, and his name was Mrs. Ernest. And I could tell how much money cruises were taking. We took $100,000 on a cruise for a thousand people in those days in the eight eighties. That's five million dollars a year, two and a half million pounds a year on a cruise ship with tiny little shops. And I said to the co-founder, send your people, see what Heathrow are doing. So we sent them over. Oh my God. I said the Heathrow will become a shopping mile one day, yeah, which it is becoming.
SPEAKER_00And look at it now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So they've definitely moved on. The biggest, and and what's now happened is they're still very backward in the way I think in the way they retail, the way they operate, but they take so much money. You know, once you've got a captive audience, you've got even with the shops ashore, they take a lot of money. And I think it's a fascinating business. And you know, I know Fraser champions Heathrow, and it's interesting. And I think cruise ships should be more on people's agenda because it is incredible business. And by the way, when you look at the beauty salons in the early days, it had just a couple of beauty rooms. These ships now got 25 to 30 beauty rooms. Yeah, they take fortunes in what they did, and that all started mainly through a relationship between Carnival and Steiner, who originally were the original people on the QE2, and they ended up doing 80% of the cruise ships. But it's a it's the most incredible business now out there. So um if anyone does go on a cruise ship, they'll see.
SPEAKER_00Take a take a look at maybe I'll take a cruise just to rather than walking down the high street, I'll take a cruise to have a look at retail.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00David, that's fantastic. Thank you so much. So that's all we've got time for now for what's in the box. A new episode will be dropping every
Final Takeaways And Farewell
SPEAKER_00two weeks, so please stay tuned. And if you want to find out more about Oxtech, please follow the link in the description. Thank you for listening, and thank you so much, David Blakeney. Pleasure, thank you.