Demystifying Cancer with guest Dr Liz O'Riordan

What happens when a breast cancer surgeon becomes a breast cancer patient? In this powerful and honest conversation, Dr. Liz O’Riordan, breast cancer surgeon, author, speaker, and thriver, joins me to share her experience of seeing cancer from both sides of the medical world.

We talk about how her diagnosis transformed her understanding of care, communication, and healing, and the lessons she’s now sharing through her new book, The Cancer Roadmap. Together, we explore the emotional realities of cancer, the importance of open connection between patients and healthcare providers, and how to separate information from misinformation in today’s cancer landscape.

A must-listen for anyone navigating cancer or supporting someone who is.

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Transcript

Demystifying Cancer Episode 5.4
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. I'm Kathryn White, holistic cancer coach and author. This is the place where we trade fear for hope, confusion for clarity, and overwhelm for empowered action. Whether you are newly diagnosed, living with cancer, or navigating life beyond it, each episode I'll share tools, insights, and real life inspiration to help you create a life that feels good to live right now in the middle of it all.

[00:00:29] Let's thrive together.

[00:00:36] Welcome to episode 5.4 of the Living to Thrive with Cancer Podcast. Before we dive into the episode, if you are a new listener, I wanna welcome you to the podcast As a cancer thriver, I use my stories and experience with stage four colon cancer. To guide you through your walk with cancer. As a cancer coach, I want to help support you through creating a health building lifestyle, managing your stress, and helping you to navigate the day in and day out stuff that comes up when you have cancer.

[00:01:05] In today's episode, I am so very excited to be able to have a chat with Dr. Liz O'Riordan. Dr. O'Riordan, first of all, welcome and thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm so, so very excited that the listeners are going to have an opportunity to get to know you, but I wanna tell them a little bit more about you before we get started.

[00:01:25] So, Dr. O'Riordan is a UK breast surgeon in 2015. At 40 years of age, she was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. She has since had two local recurrences and the side effects of treatment meant she was forced to retire from the job that she loved. She found new ways to help people through writing, speaking, hosting a podcast and health content creation for her social media.

[00:01:48] Following of 150,000 plus people. In her first book, the Complete Guide to Breast Cancer, how to Feel Empowered and Take Control, she answered every question she had when she was first diagnosed. Her memoir Under the Knife shares her. Life as a female surgeon before becoming a patient herself. She is one of the top 100 female key opinion leaders in oncology to follow on social media, and she hosts the podcast.

[00:02:18] So now I've got breast cancer. She continues to help patients with evidence-based videos to explain and demystify cancer treatment and talks globally about how to improve cancer care. Her latest book, which we will get into because I absolutely love it. The cancer roadmap came about through the exponential rise of medical misinformation online aimed at anyone with an interesting cancer.

[00:02:42] It clearly explains what cancer is, why it happens, and how it should be treated. When Liz isn't busy being a patient advocate. She divides her time between wild swimming, gardening, and knitting, which makes her feel like she's still a surgeon. So we are going to take a look at Dr. Reardon's professional and personal background is related to cancer.

[00:03:03] Her book, the Cancer Roadmap, and how it is an honest conversation around cancer care, both inside and outside of the medical world and the most important things that people who are newly diagnosed really need to know. So all of that to say, welcome Dr. Arden to the show. I'm so, so grateful to have you. I know it is a crazy busy month for you.

[00:03:25] It really, really is. It's um, it's Breast Cancer Awareness Month. It's also Bone Cancer Awareness Week. My mom died after having her arm amputation for bone cancer. So I support that Menopausal awareness month. It's just, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. Yes. And it goes on and on. So, um, I know that you are hopping all over the uk.

[00:03:44] You're seeing people going to events, and really, you're just such a, a beautiful and strong advocate. For people living with cancer and for, um, the medical side of it and the human side of it as well. So I wanna personally thank you for the work that you do. I, um, I have a number of people who come to me with breast cancer and I would always say to them, you need to follow Dr.

[00:04:07] O'Riordan because she's giving you the straight goods and all of the information that you need to know, so, oh, thank you. It's just, I just wanna help people. Exactly, and, and really I think when you walk in this world of cancer care, this is the mission is to just help people. And so that's what we're going to talk about today is how you're helping people and how you got to be, we alluded to it in the bio, but.

[00:04:33] About your own personal story because it's, it's so interesting. I really enjoyed listening to the cancer roadmap because you, you talk a bit about yourself and there and all of the things that you've uncovered along the way. Um, so you know, between writing books and all of the social media that you are doing.

[00:04:52] Um, I just wanted to ask you, what is it about this work that you're doing that makes it so valuable for you, but also for your followers? It's really, it's really strange because when I was a breast surgeon, that was the best career in the world. I'd seen a lot of cancer patients, I'd done every type of surgery, but breast cancer, it's creative.

[00:05:16] You can reshape and reconstruct a woman's breast, they smile. You can make them feel human again, really good relationships, but actually really hard work because you're being paid to make women cry. Hmm. And then I became a patient. I had all the treatment and I lost my job and I felt I've lost my purpose.

[00:05:33] I dunno what to do. And I kind of got into this because I was bored. My brain needed something to keep me. Occupied during the day, and it's really hard to see the impact of what you do when you're just putting stuff out online and you're writing books and podcasts. But I started getting messages and emails from people saying, thank you.

[00:05:52] I found this and I understood. Or I show this to my husband and he gets it. And it just, it is so rewarding to know I can reach millions of people around the world in a day and help them compared to the a hundred women I might treat with cancer a year. Mm. That is an exponential difference, isn't it? Yeah, it really is.

[00:06:13] I love what you said in there about, um, people commenting about their husbands, because it really, you know, I, I've been through my own colon cancer experience and trying to, I, I have the most amazing caregiver in the world, but for him to understand. He can only understand to a certain point and to try to explain things is challenging.

[00:06:32] Yeah. So that the work that you're doing is also supporting the caregivers I think is really beautiful. And I think it's, I remember when I was diagnosed with cancer and I was explaining to my mom what chemo is gonna be. She said, you sound like you're talking about a patient. You're not emotional. And that was just my way as a surgeon of, I guess, dissociating from what was happening to me.

[00:06:52] But it made me realize patients were expected to go home and tell their mom or their son or their children what the doctor said. And they're not doctors. They dunno this information, it's jargon they can't remember. It's Chinese whispers. And I thought. If you can create something that patients can say to their mum, read this, or tell their husband, listen to this podcast about why I don't want sex, and you'll realize I'm not making it up.

[00:07:14] This is someone telling you. And I can be that buffer to help them explain what's going on without them having to do the hard work. Yeah, yeah. Because it is hard work. Yeah. There's just so much. Um. Yeah, I was interviewed on, on our national news and they were asking me about, you know, when I got my diagnosis and I said it was like everything just went blank.

[00:07:37] Like I stopped completely. Everything the doctor said. It was like Charlie Brown's teacher just wah wah, wah. Yeah. And I had to rely on my husband. You're floating above yourself looking down. It's not happening to me. I can't remember what the doctor said 'cause I'm still processing. I've got cancer. How can I have cancer?

[00:07:53] What did you say? Yeah, yeah. How can I be 40, 43 in my case and, and be experiencing this and be expected to show up for myself, for my kids, for my husband, for my dog, for my, you know, my colleagues like in life and try to figure out. Where do I go in this hospital to find this clinic? Like how do I navigate all of these pieces?

[00:08:16] Yeah, and all the side effects. Oh, the side effects, yes. Long term and short term. Yeah. Yeah. It affects every impact of your life, doesn't it? It does. Admittedly, I have some short-term memory issues. 10 years later, I'm still struggling with, with that as a, a result of I believe the chemotherapy and the anesthesia.

[00:08:37] Yeah. Well, it, it does cause brain damage and I still will forget the names of words. I asked my husband to pass me the potato instead of the TV remote. 'cause I just, the name's gone a bit like having a stroke in a way. Oh, thank you for saying that. Because I, I, yes. And I flip words around or, or I'll be thinking like, um, garbage can, but I'll say mailbox or say just Me too.

[00:09:00] Or I can feel the word in my mouth. And then I, I'm trying to work it forward. I can hear it, I can see it, I can smell it, but I cannot get it out of my mouth. It's crazy. Yeah, it is. Oh, thank you. No, you're welcome. My husband is very, very tolerant. I know this is the wrong word, but I'm gonna say the washing machine.

[00:09:20] And I know that's not where we put the milk, but Right, right. And so for everyone who's listening, just please know from Dr. O'Riordan and myself, you are not crazy. This is actually happening, so, so this is all part of. I think the cancer roadmap is just like, let's dial this right back to what is cancer. And you walk so beautifully in those first few chapters around the different types of cancer and unpacking what that means.

[00:09:50] So I think this is probably gonna break into a couple of questions, but why did you feel that that piece was important? So I think after COVID the rise of misinformation started to grow and grow and grow. TikTok took off and I had people asking me, is match a tea safe? Can I take collagen? Is it true that brass cause cancer?

[00:10:08] I thought, where are they getting this information? This is nonsense. And then you start following those accounts and suddenly the algorithm shows you more and more nonsense. And it started with a couple of Irish brothers who did a podcast, and I think the problem with podcast is. Most of us do check what the guests are saying is true.

[00:10:27] We fact check them because we know them, but not everybody does. And a couple of, um, they had like a diet vegetarian podcast and they interviewed a gynecologist and the clip they put out said, mushrooms cause breast cancer. And I said, this is nonsense. And I did a reel and I kind of like that rage ba typical.

[00:10:45] Oh my goodness, this is dangerous. It's not true. And it got picked up by a publisher at Harper Collins who said. We are looking for someone to write a book about women's health and misinformation, and it kind of came from there and I reached out to my followers saying, tell me what nonsense you've heard, and I could spend 25 hours a day debunking the nonsense.

[00:11:03] Out there. We have the attention span of a gnat. My husband says that we flick, flick, flick, flick, flick. We've forgotten how to research. If a guy's got a million followers and he says this is true, then it must be true. Doctors aren't on social media. We don't have the time. We don't know what our patients are searching for.

[00:11:20] There was a study that came out of the states in April that said 50% of cancer patients don't trust their doctors. And a testimonial on Facebook is now more believed than a randomized trial in The Lancet. This is the world we're living in. Yeah, it's really disconcerting. Um, we talked about this before we hopped on, and so I'm going to just dive into it about screening.

[00:11:44] Yeah. And, uh, I was fact checking it this morning before we hopped on of the, that Switzerland has, um, banned mammograms. Mm-hmm. And what I saw, and perhaps you can help me with this, is that that is not true. No, it's not. And, but this stuff gets clicks and it gets views and it goes viral. So when it comes to breast screening and mammograms, there are two.

[00:12:07] Different schools of thought. There's a very small school who think mammograms are dangerous. They cause more harm than good. You shouldn't do them. And the rest of the world that thinks they're all we have. And the earlier you pick up breast cancer, the less treatment you need, the more likely you are to be cured.

[00:12:20] It saves lives. There are a couple of areas of Switzerland that are thinking of banning mammograms, but it's not a countrywide ban. And mammograms aren't great. They're not nice to have. We do cause over diagnosis. We do find things at an early stage that may never become cancer. But this is the problem with screening.

[00:12:38] It is all we have. There are people at the moment saying mammograms are dangerous. They cause cancer. I would never give anybody a mammogram. But the risk of cancer is tiny. If every woman had their screening mammogram, you may get an extra seven in a hundred thousand cancers, but alcohol would cause 880.

[00:12:57] But they don't give you the actual statistics. They don't make it real for you. You just hear a scary headline and suddenly, oh my god, mammograms are dangerous. But there's a thing called brand's law. It takes a thousand times more effort to debunk a myth. 'cause you had to go and research and fact check it.

[00:13:12] Is this true? And where does this come from? And you don't have the time. No. And I love in your book, you, um, go through the statistics. Yeah. And you really break it down. I, again, completely blown away listening to it when it was like, okay, it says I'm just gonna make up numbers. 'cause 'cause of my brain it says 20% more chance.

[00:13:34] But really you said like, well that 20% is actually more like. One woman in 3000. Let's pretend that. Exactly. So there was a great study in a UK paper that said eating processed meat, bacon sausage will double your risk of breast cancer. I like a bacon sandwich after I've been for a while, swim every weekend.

[00:13:51] Oh my god, I'm gonna die. But actually, if you risk of getting breast cancer is low, so one in 300, a doubling that risk is one in 150, which is still less than 1%, not the 50%. You think it's? Mm-hmm. But that doesn't sell magazines. Right. And what it sells is fear. Yeah. And that's what I see in the work that I'm doing is, is people coming to me so afraid.

[00:14:16] Yeah. And what should I eat and what shouldn't I eat? And admittedly, I had horrific food anxiety for many really after my diagnosis. Oh. I was afraid of everything that I ate. Like, is this going to give me a, a recurrence of cancer? Is this gonna damage me? Is this, is this compromising my immune system because of everything that I read, including bacon.

[00:14:35] And I will admit, I was just in Scotland and I enjoyed some. Very fine bacon. Thank you very much. Because I've been able to work through that piece and, and your book helped me to understand that those statistics are not, um, uh, now I've lost words. They don't apply to everyone in every case in no exponential numbers, but, but there's so much fear.

[00:15:00] Yeah. And I think, and I don't know that. You want. When you're diagnosed with cancer, you are terrified and you want certainty, and you want control, and you want hope that you're gonna be cured. And the only way we can say you're cured is if you die of something else. No one can promise you a cure. When someone says, I can cure cancer, where you say what type?

[00:15:21] 'cause there are over 200 different types of cancer, over 50 different variants of breast cancer. You can't cure everything. And as doctors, we are so busy focusing on the latest treatments and trials and drugs. We don't know that you are so scared. You are looking at what do I eat? Is it safe to eat avocado or flail?

[00:15:38] There are 10,000 cancer diet books on Amazon, most written by doctors that aren't medical doctors like me or patients to make money. The big wellness industry is worth four times big pharma, and I think part of this is raising awareness to the healthcare profession. Patients are online. There's a school in Nigeria that coaches people how to infiltrate Facebook cancer groups and get them to follow them and then buy their supplements.

[00:16:03] Oh my gosh. Terrifying. That's horrific. Uh, that was something else in the book that I was like, when you cited the statistics of, of big Pharma, which is that's a whole other podcast episode. Yeah. The vilification of modern medicine, um, versus how much money is in the wellness industry. And admittedly, I have fallen prey to that.

[00:16:23] I have a cupboard full of supplements that now I'm, I'm not baking and, and powders and things that I add to my coffee and, and, you know, all of these ideas and there's some, they're interesting, you know, documentaries on Netflix. That really, that can just lead you down the garden path. They can, but they're so convincing because they want to make money.

[00:16:44] Yeah. It's clever marketing. It's pr. They know how to draw you in, but with supplements, they're not regulated. I can make a supplement in an eastern European factory for 50 cents and like could sell it for 50 quid. $50 with a QR code that says this is absolute BOLs. But I get it. I've been the woman who's walked into a beauty store, and I say this in the book, I, I want the little Chanel bag of moisturizer with the little samples I'm never going to use.

[00:17:06] It's like, I'm gonna look amazing. You are still working on a junior doctor and not sleeping. It's not gonna make you look like a supermodel, but it's that quick, instant fix because it's easy. It's easier to put a hundred quids worth of supplements in my shake than go to the gym and eat an apple.

[00:17:20] Absolutely. And the boring stuff isn't sexy and doesn't drive sales. Exactly. And and I always say cancer isn't sexy. Like there isn't no, nothing sexy about cancer. And that's a whole other conversation Yes. Around, around how cancer is sold online and, and I think that's. The work that you're doing and the work that I'm doing is to try to help people to navigate that process with some clarity.

[00:17:44] Yeah. Um, and to normalize it and be honest and say, this is the reality. We are not exaggerating because a lot of what you see is exaggeration, it's rage, baits. Oh my goodness. It's terrible to get the views, to get the clicks. We are just saying this is what it's like. I, I commented on a post last night on a very, um, well-known American cancer survivor.

[00:18:06] And, um, I'm already seeing the, the pushback from people and it was regarding, uh, colonoscopies and, and diagnostic versus Oh, really? Pardon? Really? That's fascinating. Oh, yeah. Uh, so, uh, my colonoscopy saved my life. It, I suppose in the end it was a diagnostic because I was having symptoms. But, um, a family member recently had a colonoscopy for screening purposes, and guess what?

[00:18:30] They found? A pre-cancerous poly. Yeah. She in her twenties. And so they removed it because of screening. And so this, this back and forth argument of, or, or the misinformation around it, I think it's just really important and everyone has to make their own decision. Yeah. And like you said, doctors are busy, they have a lot of things going on and, and people say, well, my doctor doesn't care and they don't spend time with me.

[00:18:55] Well. Look at the, at the waiting room. I know, but that's the thing. So I would get 10 minutes for every appointment because you never know how many breast cancers you're going to get in a clinic. And if there are six, I'm overrunning. Some women need an hour of my time, but I don't get that. Whereas if you see a private alternative, functional, integrative naturopathic doctor, they have a, a clinic that looks like a salon.

[00:19:19] It's all yellow. Sunflowers, and I care about you, and I want to listen to you, and I care about all of you, and the doctors don't. It's not true. We do care about you. We just don't have the time. And you get misled to believe that these people know what they're talking about. Mm-hmm. I, I personally, absolutely love my oncologist.

[00:19:39] The very first appointment that we had with him, I went to shake his hand as we were leaving and he said, are you a hugger? Oh, I'm, and he's like, then bring it in. And every time I see him there is a few moments of care conversation and a few moments of self care conversation. Yeah. And there is always a hug and compassion.

[00:20:00] And I recognize that he's a busy man. Um, he puts as much humanity into it as he can, but, but it's a lot. Yeah. He also said to me, I'll never use the word cure with you. We will talk about, and this is where my book came from, living with Cancer. Exactly. Thrive with Cancer. He sounds like an amazing man. He's a beautiful human being.

[00:20:21] I quite like him. Yes. And so this is, again, bringing it back to the cancer roadmap, when someone goes into meet an oncologist. Having them front loaded a little bit with what things are in a common sense way as opposed to the misinformation that is, is floating around. That really generates so much fear and internal conflict, and I think I've seen a lot of people.

[00:20:49] Saying they know what caused their cancer and they're blaming us. They're saying it's our fault that we had stress or negative, emotional drank alcohol. We were three. And it's putting the blame on us and they can't prove it. And I really, really hate that because cancer is not your fault. No one can say whether it's because I drank a lot at medical school or I'm just, it's just bad luck.

[00:21:07] The same with you. But it's putting that blame on us. And I, I hate that. Ripple effect of what these people can do to just damage patients and their families. It's awful. And another thing I wanna talk about is people don't realize cancer can come back. And it's why you said you are not cured. You only know you're cured if you die of something else.

[00:21:29] Mm-hmm. But people don't dunno, it can come back. They dunno the signs to look out for. They don't know that. You still need to be self-aware. They still need to check and that's a hard conversation to have. Mm-hmm. I have been told six. Times that I have cancer, I had cancer in my colon, and then they had to tell me I had cancer in my liver.

[00:21:48] That was under the guise of the first diagnosis. Yeah. And then I've had I four surgeries since my colon and liver surgery, all cancer related. And it's crushing every single time. Yeah, because we, we want to believe that, okay, we've got this and it's, and this is done, but I, I'm only two years out from no evidence of disease.

[00:22:10] Two, a little over two years ago, I had another lung surgery for metastasis and that's where the whole, again, going through your book and understanding what things are and understanding why things happen, and understanding about self care and, and the work that I do with my clients to say like, it's not about why you got it, why is not gonna help Nice.

[00:22:28] It's about what can you do with this? What can we do moving forward? How can you navigate that mindset? Because I know you've had recurrence also. Yeah. How do you navigate when someone's, when the doctor says to you, I need you to know that this is happening again, and you crumble. It's a sick pit in the bottom of your stomach.

[00:22:49] You think, why now it's not fair. I can't go through this again. I cannot cope. And you somehow find that resilience to do it. And I've never reached out to crazy clinics and supplements because I know the evidence doesn't work. But I think it's telling people you only have one body. Hmm. And all these clinics out there in Mexico where the glowing testimonials are often done two weeks after they leave the clinic and people feel great because they've had a holiday, they've had three weeks of like being cared for, hand and foot and beautiful food and exercise, and they calm down and they feel great.

[00:23:20] So they do feel good, but they die. There are stories in the book of people who died when they stop having traditional treatment. You are five or six times more likely to die if you have breast and bowel cancer and you don't have traditional treatment. And it's hard. When it's come back, you think, well, what's the point?

[00:23:37] My cancer came back twice despite chemotherapy. Despite surgery. Why bother? But I know I wouldn't be alive now if I hadn't had that in the beginning. But we are not out there on social media telling people, Hey, chemo's great. It works most of the time. Highly recommend. Yeah, it's wonderful. You don't need your hair.

[00:23:54] It's gonna great. But it's just, it, it's, it's really hard mentally to get your head around it. And when you've got family and friends saying, oh, hey, I read this on Facebook. Oh, you should do that. And how do you politely say no? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we've had that conversation at our house. I don't know if I could do chemo again if I had to.

[00:24:13] Yeah. But, and my husband responding with, but, but we need you to be okay. Yeah, I get that. And I know that I would do chemo again if I had to. Um, and not everybody who's listening is gonna agree with us, and that's okay. That's why we have the conversations is so people can be independent thinkers. But what I know is that, um, sometimes you have to do the hard work and it's a choice, but sometimes.

[00:24:44] I think at end of the day, everybody just wants to be healthy and wants to be happy and wants themselves, and so all.

[00:24:58] It's quantity over quality of life. And what does that look like for you? Mm-hmm. I've just recently stopped one of my breast cancer drugs. I'm on treatment for life now to stop it. Coming back, I get monthly bum injections, which are not fun. I go into the unit and drop my trousers and bend over, come out walking like a cowboy.

[00:25:13] But I it fun every month for the rest of my life. But I was on a targeted low dose chemo treatment and I had horrible mouth side effects and I stopped and my husband's like. I don't want you to stop because I don't want you to die. I cannot imagine the thought of this coming back and you not being here.

[00:25:32] Please carry on. But I get how hard it is and I'll support you if you stop. But I'm finding it really hard and you have to live. I have to live with, I can't carry on like this, and if it comes back, it might be my fault, and I have to be okay with that. And you can only make a choice that's right for you in the moment, but it's having the right evidence and listening to the right people.

[00:25:54] Not those telling you to do a parasite cleanse for goodness sake and more. Yes. Yeah. The juicing, the enemas, the keto diets. Oh. It's just, it doesn't stop the money people are spending. Yeah. I know this is going to be, um, very controversial for some people that are listening. I was a little bit nervous about being controversial, admittedly.

[00:26:20] 'cause I'm a people pleaser at heart. Just want everybody to be happy. Um, yeah. But I think more and more as I'm, as I, I listened to your book and the hard copy is coming out in November. November. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the audio was fantastic 'cause I could just drive around and listen to you and take you on my walk with me.

[00:26:41] It was like we were having tea together. Um, but the, um. Oh, see, I've forgotten where I was going with that. Oh, you were gonna be really controversial. Yeah. I, I think as I'm getting older and, and as I am becoming much more comfortable in my own skin and who I'm, I'm okay with this. I, I think it's really important.

[00:27:03] Again, people can make their own informed and choices, but how do you make informed in choices when you don't have the information? Yeah, exactly. And we're not experts. And now you can go to chat, GPT and you, you, you trust what it's telling you. But if it's getting us information and most of the stuff out there is on TikTok and it's not true chat GP doesn't know that.

[00:27:22] No. We've forgotten how to research that. You wouldn't go and buy a card because a TikTok video said, Hey, go and buy a price. Exactly. You wouldn't, but with your body you would. Yeah. We are not trained. To know what the red flags are, to say, Hey, that could be nonsense. That's not true. Just to step back and think, we want that quick, instant hit because it seems easy, and you think that's little nugget, that boast of dopamine.

[00:27:46] I've done something that's gonna stop it coming back. Yeah. And, and you know what? Maybe, um, having that apple is the right step towards that. Yeah. And don't judge anyone for doing it. 'cause I'm not in their shoes. But it's just, just pause. Like when, when you put five things in your, your shopping trolley online that you don't really need, but I need somebody winter boots, or there's brown and green and red.

[00:28:06] Just pause. Just do some research week, fact check it on another reputable website. Yes. From someone who isn't trying to make money from you. Yes. Are they saying the same thing? I always go to PubMed, which can be a little overwhelming when you're not a doctor or, or a scientist or researcher. Yep. Um, so I tend, tend to read the intro and the conclusion and try to look at the data in between.

[00:28:29] But, um, I have had people say that, well, I just put my scans into chat, GPT and, and my skin. Oh. And I just like, I just catch my breath because admittedly I use chat GPT when it comes to. State helping me with podcast ideas or writing social media posts, but I don't put anything like that into chat gbt, because that's your personal medical information.

[00:28:53] It's, and chat not a doctor and it doesn't know you. No. And your medical problems and all the drugs you're taking. Oh my God. But I get why people are doing it. It's hard work searching PubMed. So when I did a video recently about a guy, an Ayurvedic doctor who people believe is a doctor, 'cause he calls himself doctor, saying that matcha tea kills breast cancer cells, so we should be drinking it.

[00:29:15] I've seen and I went and looked at and it's, but it's always like in May or it might, or it could. Mm-hmm. They're warning words and actually, if you pour a really concentrated amount of macho tea on cancer cells in a dish and flood them with it, it will kill eight out of a hundred cells. That's still, to get the same concentration in a human, you'd have to drink 300 cups in an hour.

[00:29:37] And you might kill 8% of your cancer cells. And if you've had surgery like you and I have, there may be nothing left to kill. Mm. It's all done in cells. And it might be, but they use that to spin these claims to sell supplements. Yeah. Yeah. But people dunno how to do the work to say, is this true or not?

[00:29:52] They just go, well, it must be because it's a video and he's got a million followers. Yes. And, and there's, there is good information out there. And then there is the, like you said, the, those cautionary words like may, might, has been shown to there's, um, yeah, and I, I don't want to get into the controversy of, of no that are happening, but two studies on Tylenol doesn't exactly confirm anything and so no, it, it's a whole other level of education.

[00:30:26] My degree is in history and English, so yeah. I'm a research You're used to researching. But not in the science side. No, but it's still the same. You can cherry pick the data. Yes. If you want to. It's like if you ask chat GPT does the keto diet cure cancer? It will show you articles saying it does. If you say, is the keto diet neu, nutri BOLs, it will find you evidence that shows that, yeah, you have to learn what to search for and people aren't trained.

[00:30:54] It, it's a tremendous amount of work to research and then to what language within the study. And then like you said, you can extract anything from anything and that's where to bring it back to the cancer roadmap. I just think I, I really wanted to have you here because I feel like. If people are going to try to understand then, in my opinion, getting it from the source.

[00:31:21] Yeah. Someone who is educated in research and has walked in the medical world and has also moved over into the personal side of it is a valuable. Source of information and, and take it or leave it, whatever. It's always a human choice to do that. Yeah. And it's, I just, I've had so many people ask me questions.

[00:31:42] I kind of know what people want to know, and I just wanted to explain what cancer is and how it happens and what causes it. And it's not brows and deodorants and microplastics and parabens on your makeup and why we treat it the way we do and explain the difference between mainstream doctors like me.

[00:32:00] And the functional medicine. So functional medicine, that kind that Dr. Mark Hyman practices was invented by a businessman in the 1990s to sell supplements and then just walk them through why we cure it and what doesn't cure it, just so they can see and give it to people saying, did this work? Give it to their family just so they can understand to make it less scary.

[00:32:20] But the people who need to read the book won't because it's like a cult. You get drawn down this rabbit hole of this is true and this is true, and people are dying. We had a case in the UK where a young 23-year-old with a lymphoma in her chest was persuaded by her mother to do juicing and ke juicing and coffee enemas instead of chemo.

[00:32:38] She was 35 kilograms when she died because this tumor was pressing on her heart and her lungs. And that's in 2025. Wow. And I know there are a number of other examples in your book. It's hard you don't hear those stories on social media because there's no follow up because they don't care about you.

[00:32:58] They just wanna make money. Yeah. That's a very, uh, disconcerting bottom line. Yeah. But it's true. Well, that's why people have businesses is to make exactly in whatever the field is that it's so. What do you think that someone who has just been newly diagnosed, really, what do they need to know? And you're welcome to speak to it just in terms of breast cancer or in a, in a broader scope.

[00:33:28] Whatever feels right for you. I think you need to know that you are not alone. There are other people going through this, and if you can find your community, your tribe online in a support group through a website just to talk to other people going through what you are going through, that will really help because your friends and family don't get it.

[00:33:49] They don't understand the crazy thoughts in your head, and it's helpful having someone to say the really weird stuff, the stuff that you're scared about, that you can't tell your husband or your mom. And I think that that support is really, really helpful, whether it's through local groups or online.

[00:34:04] There is no right way to go through cancer. I did it very differently to my own mum and you just do what is right for you, but this is the rest of your life we're talking about. You dunno how long you have that fear is there. You want to make sure that everything you do is by. It's informed consent. You know, the pros and the cons on the risks of doing it and the risks of not doing it.

[00:34:28] When you make a decision and your doctors aren't trying to hide things from you, we want you to live. But it's scary and I think. You need to reach out and ask for help. I didn't. I'm a doctor. I was telling my surgeon where to put the scar and what drains to use and I thought I should be able to cope with constipation and not pooing for 10 days.

[00:34:47] 'cause I'm a doctor. I was clueless. I waited until it was too late. And it's hard, especially if you're used to being like a high powered job to say, I'm vulnerable and I'm scared and I dunno what to do and to actually ask for help. But you are not alone and there are people who will get you through this.

[00:35:03] Yes. I have a whole chapter in my book about asking for help is a superpower. I love that chapter, but it's really hard to do. It's so hard to say. I need help. Yeah. Yeah. Many of us. Speaking from the eye are conditioned to not ask for help. Yeah. I'm just gonna stop this on my own. I don't want to look stupid.

[00:35:26] I don't want to look vulnerable. I don't want to look like I'm clueless. I don't want to embarrass myself. But yeah, really, you know, some of the conversations that come up in when I'm coaching are around things like. My husband doesn't want to be intimate with me anymore. Yes. Because this is what my body looks like.

[00:35:46] I don't have nipples, I don't have breasts. I have an ostomy bag. How do I manage these things? And And who do you ask those questions of? I know, and I think that's why you ask other patients. So I discovered you can get high wasted crotchless knickers if you're a woman with an ostomy. Really? So, yeah, you can.

[00:36:09] So for men it's quite, quite easy 'cause they can wear boxer shorts. Yes. And, and there's a whole that you can do whatever you want to do, but for women, you can get high-waisted knickers that are crotch lists that will keep the colostomy covered and intact. And you can still have penetrative sex. That, but you find that out from talking to other patients, and by us talking and sharing the stories, they will trickle up to the people treating us.

[00:36:32] Because I had a friend who asked a surgeon, what do I do with my stoma on a one night stand? And he was like, horrified. You wanna have sex with a stoma? Well, yeah, I'm 25. Yeah. He would never talk about sex. I never talked about sex. I didn't know how to, but actually it's a basic human need. Mm-hmm. And I think it's by talking to others and getting this stuff out there and like you coaching and sharing that information that you have to say, this is normal.

[00:36:54] Let's find a way around it. Yeah. It comes down to communication. It does and and yeah, there's some shock and awe in, you know, my husband and I had been married for. When I was diagnosed and this before, but I'm gonna, we're doing this. Okay. Um, the nurse said to us, so when you have sex, you are going to need to use a condom.

[00:37:20] And we like. But why? Like we didn't understand and she said, well, there's bacteria and you're going to be on chemotherapy and your immune system's going to be compromised and you need to be very careful. That was a very uncomfortable conversation and we're just looking at each other like this. Did we just actually have this conversation?

[00:37:38] Yeah, but we didn't know what we didn't know, and it's weird. It's a real thing. I've reached out to brackets, I've reached out to one of your peers, Zoe. Yes. Who is a sex therapist for people with cancer. Yeah. And um, we've started a little dialogue and I would love to have her on the podcast. 'cause these are the questions that people have that they don't plan.

[00:38:00] They are so for me. I had chemo first, so I was bold and I had a palpable cancer in my breast, and the first time my husband and I went into bed, it was like, well, do I touch the cancer? Do I touch the breast? Do I not? Do I touch the head? It was so awkward. And then with the menopausal side effects, my vagina is like a tube of sandpaper.

[00:38:20] I have no sex drive. I have no estrogen. Trying to explain to your husband that you, you still find them attractive, but you don't get wet, you don't get turned on. It's really, really hard when you've not been married very long and, and women who are dating and going through this, we need to help them.

[00:38:34] There are things you can do. It may not be spontaneous, but I had no idea. Yeah. And you need that connection the most at a time when you're going through something that's major and there are husbands sleeping in separate rooms 'cause they don't wanna hurt their partners or they no longer find them attractive or they're scared and then sunny you stop touching.

[00:38:52] You stop talking. I wanted my husband to divorce me and marry a woman with two breasts and a libido because I felt guilty of what I had brought into our marriage. Really? Yeah. And I'm not alone. Thank you for sharing that. That is a very big share. I think that's going to help a lot of women that are, and men that are listening to this to normalize this idea that cancer is not sexy and what it does to your body is not sexy.

[00:39:19] And when you feel like you're wasting away to nothing and just getting up is hard work. Yeah. The idea of extra energy being exerted on a joyful moment, it's just like, oh, I'm so tired. And the mum slip into years and suddenly you've forgotten what to do and your flatmates. I get a lot of people tell me it's like that and how do you get that intimacy back when everything has changed?

[00:39:41] And yes, it's gonna happen with a relationship. Our bodies head south for winter, but cancer is instant. Mm-hmm. It wasn't expected. Mm-hmm. And it's hard to deal with. Yeah. That again is a whole other podcast episode. I know it's even around hormone replacement therapy and like you said, it's Oh, yes. Month.

[00:39:59] And you know, as a woman who is in menopause and managing all of that, it's, I, I even talked to my oncologist. I was like, is it okay? I had colon cancer, not hormonally related. Yeah. But pay for me to go on hormone replacement therapy because I've had cancer. And he said, if men went through menopause.

[00:40:19] Everyone would be on hormone replacement. Yeah, it's a great drug. It really is. It's a great drug. Almost every cancer patient, it's safe to have, and it should be your choice at the end of the day. There may be a risk with it, but it's up to you if you want to take that risk. And I think you address that in the book.

[00:40:35] Yeah, yeah, I do. It's important for me, it's just I worry about the rise of misinformation. It's global. And the ripple effects. So when El McPherson, the supermodel, talked about her pre breasts cancer when, 'cause she had a book coming out and she has a business and she sells supplements, and she said she went to see 32 different oncologists who all told her she needed chemo and she decided not to and spent nine months in a solo retreat in Arizona.

[00:41:02] Well, firstly, no doctor would give chemotherapy for the pre breasts cancer she had. But the ripple effect is that women in Australia are saying no to chemo because El McPherson did and she's still alive. Right. A 62nd clip from a podcast can kill people in years to come. Yeah. But they don't take respo.

[00:41:22] There's no ownership. There's no responsibility. Yeah. So our peers that are newly diagnosed need to be. Of where they're getting their information from. Yeah. You should only get it from your medical team, not from me. I'm not your doctor, not from you. You're not their doctor. We don't know you. You should only get it from your medical team.

[00:41:44] And before you do anything crazy, you've seen on the internet, talk to them. And there's a difference between complimentary therapy. You may find that doing a load of green juices and protein shakes and having your apple cider vinegar makes you feel better. So you then exercise and you sleep better and you look after yourself more and there's like that wellness placebo effect, but you're still having your cancer treatment as well.

[00:42:05] Yes. As long as they don't interact with your cancer treatment, it's fine. It's not gonna cure you, but it may make you feel better. Yeah. But when you only have that. People die. Mm-hmm. And that's where in my coaching, I'm very careful. When people ask, you know, even, what did I do? Well, my cancer is different than your cancer.

[00:42:24] Yeah. Or do you get these supplements or did you green juice and, well, I enjoy green juice. I, I enjoy green juice and I believe that it is healthy for me. It hydrates my cells and it gives me energy, but I don't subscribe to any one particular thing, nor am I going to tell you to subscribe to particular thing because it's such an individual process and it's not my place.

[00:42:46] And I, I want to make that very clear because I was mortified by the chapter in your book about cancer coaches, and I just thought everybody was doing what I was doing. Like, let's talk about why you're sad and let's talk about how you can manage your fear, and let's talk about why eating healthy is good for you.

[00:43:01] And then in that chapter, when you shared about coaches that are asking for 46,000 pound, which if you're in North America, that's like 92, 90 $3,000. Yeah. It's a lot of money. And what they will do is they will shop around for alternative cancer treatments for you and what diet and what supplements and tell you all of this.

[00:43:20] And I guess if you are paying for your treatment, that may be a lot cheaper than what chemo might cost. But they are making money. They are scamming patients. It is a business. Yeah. But you can't see that because this, you want to be that miracle cure. I'll be the woman you help. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so much we schools to.

[00:43:48] Spot scams in social media, how to see what's the truth and what isn't. So, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do a video about this. I'm, I'm gonna give it to you live Now, I love the color yellow, but I hate bananas. I think they smell weird and they're squishy, and I don't like soft fruit. So, I'm sorry, bananas. I've never eaten one.

[00:44:04] I could say I've never eaten a banana and I've had breast cancer three times. So everybody should eat bananas to stop them getting breast cancer. But my other self could say, I've beaten breast cancer three times by never eating a banana ban bananas. And there it's both true in my view as an expert. Two diet books, completely different.

[00:44:31] Two courses, you know, I'm gonna make millions either way. That's how easy it is. And for you to prove that bananas have nothing to do with breast cancer. You have to go onto PubMed and do the research and is this true and how can I, you can't. This is how easy it's for people to make shit up. Yeah, and there's a lot of shit out there.

[00:44:50] There is. Yeah. And I, again, even in the world of nutrition, like you can't, it's diff difficult to quantify things because there's in vivo and in vitro study and, and who study it on and when you want studies in cancer patients, you need the right group and they need to be consenting and it like, there's just so much.

[00:45:09] Exactly. And most nutrition studies are based on phone calls once a year with patients. What did you eat in the last week? And they extrapolate that as your yearly diet, and how do you prove that the fact they had an extra half a pint of milk is the only difference between those a thousand patients?

[00:45:25] Increase the risk of recurrence. Yeah, and for the diet, it's really, we all know what to eat. It's a load of fruit and veg. It's protein, fiber, whole grain carbs. That's it. The World Cancer Research Fund, I'm sure you know, is the go-to. They've done all the evidence. The diet is the same whether you've had cancer or you haven't, but that's boring.

[00:45:44] You know, people want the magic diet, the thing that's gonna cure them, and they're preying on our fear. Yeah. And fear is a very, very big part of cancer. Yeah. I still wake up every day scared it's gonna come back. You do? Yeah. Tiny bit of me every day just thinks I wonder. Time helps. Yes. I think that fear is, and I think for me, I've looked after people who've died of cancer.

[00:46:12] I saw mom die of cancer, so I've got an inkling of how bad it might be. I've got kind of inside knowledge. And when you are active on social media, your friends die. Mm-hmm. You get survivor's guilt when they die and you don't, why wasn't it me? It should be me instead of them. Mm-hmm. You are losing people.

[00:46:29] It's really, really hard. Sometimes you just need to step back and switch off. Yeah. And remember you're not just a cancer patient. Yeah. There's more to you than that. Absolutely. Absolutely. My podcast episode that came out, um, beginning of October, this episode's coming out end of October, um, is actually about survivor's guilt and brilliant, and those feelings that you have moving forward.

[00:46:54] So this ends nicely. I I'll have two more questions for you then. Um, you know, how are you.

[00:47:06] Wow, that's a big one. I'm someone who, like, I've always put myself at the bottom of the pile. I'm a people pleaser who wants to help people, and I'm slowly learning. I need to help myself before I can help other people. And it's learning to be self ish. Mm-hmm. And that you say, Liz, are you eating properly?

[00:47:24] Are you exercising? Are you doing the things you love? Are you getting your sleep in and learning to prioritize me and my friends and family over online job that can take hours and hours and hours is actually, if I don't look after myself, no one else will. Mm-hmm. And finally learning to say no because you get so many people coming at you asking you so many things, and it's actually.

[00:47:46] Do I have the time and energy to do that and do it well? Or do I need two days off just to walk the dog or go for a swim? And I think it's that. It's learning what I need for me, so my life is valuable for me, and then I can be better person for everybody else. Beautiful. I almost feel like I don't need to ask you the next question.

[00:48:08] No. But now I'm curious. Now we must, now we must have this, you must question, but it's true about the selfish part. Mm. And I hear that so many times like, well, I just, but I need to do this for my family and this for my kids and this for the neighbor. No, no, no, no. I say you take, even if it's half an hour, one night, you tell your husband.

[00:48:27] I need this half an hour for me. I used to say to my patients, go lock yourself in the bathroom. Pour bubble bath glass of wine book. I need this half an hour, so I will be a nicer wife and mum to all of you. Mm-hmm. I need me time to recharge my batteries. Otherwise I'm gonna get droppy and irritable and I won't be nice to live with.

[00:48:44] I need this time, this hour for me. Yes. And be selfish and they will learn. No, I'm not answering the phone. You can't come in. This is my time. And then you are a nicer person to be around because you've had your moment. So selfish in, in self is self. It's self, it's self care, it's self love. And you're teaching your family that it's okay for them to do something for them.

[00:49:11] We all have our own needs and, and you have to, to fill it yourself. Yes. I feel like I've done a lot of modeling for that for, I have two adult sons and they're very cognizant of, of food. They're very cognizant of movement. They're very cognizant of their own emotional space and taking that time. Because when I was going through and as I continue to live with cancer, yeah, I do exactly what you said.

[00:49:36] Like, no, I need this time for me. I need that walk by myself. Or, I love puzzles, jigsaw puzzles. I love to just do that. Or you know those, I'm getting back into knitting, so I know that's hobbies. I'm now getting all these yarn things in my algorithm. Oh, I love this. Yarn is free. Wool is free. Doesn't tell my husband.

[00:49:54] Don't look in that cupboard for free, but it's it that in itself too, and I know you said like knitting brings you back to, to being a surgeon, like with your hands in, but it's just such a calming, repetitive practices that that really is part of the self-care also. So, um, yeah, self-care is self-love and when we model that for others, it, I think it just gives permission.

[00:50:19] Yeah. That it's okay. You don't have to do everything all of the time. No. You don't have to do anything. You have, and it teaches you to love yourself. Your worth looking after to reconnect with your body because you may have a very different relationship with it after cancer scars and side effects and hair loss and weight gain or weight loss, and actually looking after yourself can be really nourishing mentally.

[00:50:42] Yes. Yes. Because yeah, just. You've been through, so, yeah. Yes. I'm gonna ask you my last question. This is my favorite question because I Okay. Different for everyone. Um, the question is, what does living to thrive mean to you? Oh, living to thrive means I am looking for the joy in every day, and I'm trying to see the positives, not the negatives.

[00:51:16] And for me, that's being near water. Being out in nature, looking at the birds on my feed are choosing to come to my feed, are just finding that joy, I'm alive, I'm smiling, I'm happy. It's that no matter how dark you are, you can always do something that will make you smile. Mm, I do love that so much. Thank you.

[00:51:37] Nature is so healing. So healing. I'm sitting here right now looking at the, the Canadian trees are all changing to their reds and their oranges, and it's just so grounding and calming and water is like, get your feet in water, get your hands in water. I love those practices for you as part of your thriving.

[00:51:59] Yeah. I feel like also part of your thriving is that that sharing and that giving peace, is that true? Definitely. I think by writing and sharing, it helps me come to terms with what I've been through. 'cause I'd dissociate and it's, this did happen to me and it's important to share the low moments so people don't think I'm a superwoman who's off doing this and this and this.

[00:52:21] This is a reality. And I think sharing, talking, writing, journaling, whether it's private or not, can help you come to terms with what you've been through and move, find a way to move past it. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that you were able to be here today in this very busy life that you have, and I know that you are advocating very strongly around breast cancer this month.

[00:52:46] I have to say. I love your ABCs. Thank you. It's brilliant because it's. Just sharing so much information in a very short amount of time. So I'm going to share your, um, link to your book and or books and, uh, your, where people can contact you if they'd like to reach out to you or follow you in the show notes.

[00:53:07] Um, I encourage you, if you've listened with us today to follow Dr. O'Riordan and on Instagram. She has amazing content around breast cancer and, you know, I think. Change that, that breast cancer piece to whatever your own type of cancer is, and still extrapolate from what Dr. O'Riordan is sharing, how that applies to you in your own life.

[00:53:29] So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. O'Riordan for being here today and for all of the work that you are doing and your insight on life with cancer. And likewise, thank you for being a shining light in our community, Kathryn. We need more people like you. Thank you very much. I just want to say to the listeners that if you have found what you've learned here today to be helpful, please share it with other people that you know that could benefit from this episode.

[00:53:56] Sharing helps Dr. O'Riordan and myself to support more people that are living with cancer. To debunk those myths, to help them find some clarity and to help them move from survivor to thriver. And you can go ahead and find Dr. O'Riordan on YouTube and Instagram. Again, go to the show notes and find her information.

[00:54:13] And you can also go ahead and follow my podcast as I bring in more guests, some more information to help you YouTube move in your own life from survivor to thriver. So thank you everyone for being here today, and we'll see you in the next episode of The Living to Thrive With Cancer Podcast. Thank you so much for being here today.

[00:54:32] I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day, and may you live your life to your fullest. Follow your heart and thrive in all you do.