Acupuncture for Cancer Survivorship

In today’s episode, I sit down with Dr Beverley de Valois to explore her research in acupuncture and cancer survivorship.

Dr de Valois share her insights into how acupuncture can support people living with cancer and help them to navigate some of the challenges that come with being a survivor.

This episode isn’t just about a practice, it’s about possibility and support.

Dr de Valois shares how she came to researching acupuncture and cancer, how acupuncture can support post cancer survivorship, and insights into the benefits of acupuncture. Her insight, and research offer a message that every listener can carry with them:

✨ Your story doesn’t end with diagnosis.
✨ You can create a thriving life with cancer
✨ You can use tools outside of the medical world in conjunction with medical treatments.

Whether you’re living with cancer, love someone who is, or want to better understand the cancer survivor experience, this episode will leave you inspired, informed, and reminded of the possibilities that are available to you.

🎧 Listen to the Episode

You can find this conversation on:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify
• Or wherever you listen to podcasts

If this episode resonates with you, I would love for you to share it with someone who may need support or encouragement today.

Learn more about Dr de Valois

Dr Beverley de Valois

Acupuncture and Cancer Survivorship book from publisher

Acupuncture and Cancer Survivorship book on Amazon

LinkedIn

National Cancer Institute

Learn More About Becoming a Cancer Thriver

Download your free copy of Managing Cancer in Everyday Life 

Support is available to you. Schedule a free one hour coaching call https://calendly.com/kathrynwhitewellness/coachingcall

Ready for More Support?

💛 Join the Cancer Thriver Pathway
This is where we take conversations like this and turn them into action with personalized support, holistic strategies, and a compassionate community walking beside you.

https://kathrynwhite.coach/membership

📅 Schedule your free consult call here:
https://calendly.com/kathrynwhitewellness/coachingcall

You don’t have to figure this out alone. Let’s build your strength physically, emotionally, and mentally together.

Free Resource

🎁 “Mindfulness for Anxiety Workbook” – FREE
Download here: https://kathryn-white-cancer-coach.kit.com/anxietyworkbook

Love the Podcast?

If this episode encouraged you, please:

• Subscribe
• Share it with someone who needs to hear it
• Leave a 5-star review

My Book

Living to Thrive with Cancer: A Holistic Guide to Living with Cancer
Available on Amazon, Audible, iTunes, and more:
https://a.co/d/drFeapW

Let’s Connect

Website: https://www.kathrynwhite.coach
Instagram: @kathrynwhitecancercoach

I would love to hear from you. Send your message to hello@kathrynwhite.coach

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kathryn White: Welcome to the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. I'm Catherine White, holistic cancer coach and author. This is the place where we trade fear for hope, confusion for clarity, and overwhelm for empowered action. Whether you are newly diagnosed, living with cancer, or navigating life beyond it, each episode I'll share tools, insights, and real life inspiration to help you create a life that feels good to live right now in the middle of it all.

[00:00:29] Kathryn White: Let's thrive together.

[00:00:35] Kathryn White: Welcome to episode 5.10 of The Living to Thrive with Cancer Podcast. Before we dive into the episode, if you are a new listener, I want to welcome you to the podcast as a cancer thriver. I use my stories in ex. Experience with stage four colon cancer to guide you through your walk with cancer. As a cancer coach, I want to help support you through creating a health building lifestyle, managing your stress, and helping you to navigate the day in and day O stuff that comes up when you have cancer.

[00:01:04] Kathryn White: In today's episode, I have the privilege of speaking with Dr. Beverly, Val Wa. Welcome, Dr. Val Wa. 

[00:01:13] Dr Beverley de Valois: Thank you. It's great to be here. 

[00:01:15] Speaker 2: I'm so pleased you are joining us from the UK today, which is very exciting. And, um, I would love for the listeners to know a little bit more about you. So I'm going to, um, share some background before we get into our conversation.

[00:01:29] Speaker 2: Beverly Dua PhD, practicing acupuncturist in the United Kingdom, fellow of the British Acupuncture Council member of the British Ology Society, and former chair of the Scientific Committee within the Lymphatic Society is joining us here today. She is indeed a practicing acupuncturist in the United Kingdom and a distinguished researcher of acupuncture for the supportive care of people living with and beyond cancer.

[00:01:56] Speaker 2: For over 25 years, she was a researcher in integrative medicine in the supportive oncology research team in the East and North Hertfordshire, NHS Trust incorporating Mount Vernon Cancer Center. She has conducted several pioneering studies into using acupuncture to manage the consequences of cancer treatments.

[00:02:17] Speaker 2: Dr. De Valois is an honorary research fellow in the School of Social and Community Medicine University of Bristol, a fellow of the British Acupuncture Council, a member of the British Society for Integrative Oncology and past chair of the British Ology Society Scientific Committee. She has many publications in scientific journals and is the lead author on the multi-award winning publication, acupuncture in Cancer Care.

[00:02:44] Speaker 2: Recommendations for Safe Practice, A peer reviewed expert opinion and Dr. De Valois lectures internationally and is the author of Acupuncture and Cancer Survivorship, recovery, renewal and Transformation. Published by Singing Dragon. She has opened the first clinics in the UK to focus specifically on helping people to recover after cancer treatment.

[00:03:10] Speaker 2: That is an amazing, amazing lifetime of work that you have are bringing to our conversation today. I'm just so excited that you are here. 

[00:03:21] Dr Beverley de Valois: Fabulous. Yes. It's interesting to listen to. It played back to me. It's quite, sometimes you 

[00:03:27] Kathryn White: must think I really have done all of those things. That's quite amazing. Yeah, yeah, 

[00:03:31] Dr Beverley de Valois: yeah.

[00:03:31] Dr Beverley de Valois: Because mostly you spend your life trying to achieve, trying to push things forward and, and make other things happen, and you forget the kind of what you've accumulated behind you. 

[00:03:41] Kathryn White: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, in this episode, what I would like to guide us through is looking at your work around acupuncture and cancer survivorship, why you want to increase awareness about the challenges people with cancer face follow treatment, and your desire to increase awareness of how acupuncture can support people living with cancer.

[00:03:59] Kathryn White: Answer. So let's get started. Um. Gosh, this is just such a privilege. I wanna give a very quick little backstory, so of how we actually connected. So I was on a hike in Scotland. This past September and there were, um, two people hiking behind us and we ended up having a conversation and chatted away and then bumped into them again when we were in Fort William in the bookstore.

[00:04:26] Kathryn White: And I got talking with the gentleman whose name is Josh Barrow. And, um, I said, oh, you're an acupuncturist. I should have you on my podcast. And he said, no, no, I have someone that I really think would be an absolute. Amazing guest for your podcast. So the, the fun story behind you being here today is that I was hiking in Scotland and met an acupuncturist who happens to know you and here we are.

[00:04:54] Dr Beverley de Valois: And isn't this the power of networking and chance, isn't it? It's great. It is. Josh Ross is wonderful and I'm really grateful to him for, uh, putting, putting us in contact. Yeah. 

[00:05:05] Kathryn White: Yeah. So thank you Josh. If you're listening, we appreciate you indeed. So I'm, I'm very interested in the listeners knowing how this, um, practice of acupuncture, but then taking it to this next level of cancer survivorship became your calling.

[00:05:24] Kathryn White: Would you be able to give us a little background on that? 

[00:05:27] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah. Um, it's kind of a. The reverse. I was, I, I felt the call to work with people with cancer before I became an acupuncturist. So before I trained as an acupuncturist, I trained as an aromatherapist. And um, and this was happening in a very kind of.

[00:05:50] Dr Beverley de Valois: Tumultuous time in my life. And so I was working with a meditation teacher and she recommended and we were working with Dreams and she recommended I read a book. And when I put down that book, um, I. And it was about, it was about using yummy and dream therapy to uh, support a person with breast cancer.

[00:06:13] Dr Beverley de Valois: And this was back before people even talked about cancer, you know, when it was. And um, and the one thing I remember about that book, 'cause I put it down and I thought, I want to work with people with cancer. Hmm. So I was an aromatherapist at that time. I knocked on doors, um, and none of them were being opened to me.

[00:06:38] Dr Beverley de Valois: And so I, I volunteered with a group, with a, with a charity that supported people with, um, HIV and aids. And through that I, I got placed in a hospital setting. And one day, uh, the, the. I was approached by a woman who introduced herself as the lead, uh, McMillan nurse, so the, the oncology nurse in the hospital, and would I provide treatment for her patients?

[00:07:04] Dr Beverley de Valois: So that got me into working with people with cancer. She gave me a job one day a week. Um, and I worked, I worked there on the hospital wards for seven years part-time. Um, and, but during that time I was also training as an acupuncturist and it was my kind of overwhelming. Give acupuncture to people, um, being treated for cancer and.

[00:07:32] Dr Beverley de Valois: Once I qualified, I was, um, headhunted to work at, uh, a charity called the Linda Jackson McMillan Center. This was associated with the Cancer treatment Center in the, in the, in, uh, greater London, uh, called Mount Vernon Cancer Center. And that is where my life, uh, as an acupuncturist, uh, researching and giving treatment to people with cancer began.

[00:07:56] Kathryn White: Hmm, what an interesting, um. Chronology of, of your desire to, and then sort of circling around it and then actually being able to land in it. And so it has taken you further this, this experience going from aromatherapy into working in the cancer unit has taken you even farther into research and I'm. I'm excited to share more about, um, and I have you share more about your research and how it relates to post-treatment care.

[00:08:31] Kathryn White: But, um, I wondered perhaps we should just share for people who aren't familiar with acupuncture or what it entails, maybe you could provide a little bit of insight into it. 'cause I think it. Many people have probably heard of it, but don't know exactly what the practice is or the intention behind it.

[00:08:49] Kathryn White: Would you be able to give us some information? 

[00:08:52] Dr Beverley de Valois: Of course, yes. Um, acupuncture is a, is a practice that comes to us from the far east. Um, it's mostly associated, uh. Its origins are, are, are believed to, uh, be in China where it is being developed and widely used, but it's used throughout the countries in the far East.

[00:09:09] Dr Beverley de Valois: And fundamentally, uh, we think of it as the practice of, uh, inserting very fine needles, uh, into points on the body to help, uh, the body to change and to help heal itself. 

[00:09:24] Kathryn White: Very, very briefly and well said. Yeah, I've had acupuncture myself a number of times and I have found it to be quite helpful. Um, my first experience with acupuncture was actually as a physiotherapy release of muscles, but when I moved into more as an energetic practice and um, a body treatment practice, I found I quite enjoyed it and it found really good results from it actually.

[00:09:50] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yes, and I think this, it's very important what you're saying. People think of it as a, uh, a therapy primarily for physical symptoms, but I mean, it's wonderfully versatile and flexible. Flexible and broad ranging. And so where it, I think where it really comes into its own with people with cancer is that it can help address the emotional aspects of, of cancer and its treatments.

[00:10:18] Dr Beverley de Valois: And really help. It's very holistic, I think it can be. Yeah. 

[00:10:23] Kathryn White: Yeah. And, um, one of the, the, the intentions I wanted to have behind having you here is to invite into the conversation that adjuvant therapies can, um. We hear a lot of adjuvant therapies out there on the internet and people saying, try this and do that.

[00:10:42] Kathryn White: And I really feel for the benefit of the people that are listening to this podcast that I want to ensure that they're getting the best information and, um. Being a bit of a nerd myself, I like the science parts. And also I think that having science-based information when it comes to something as significant as healing through and beyond cancer is really important.

[00:11:05] Kathryn White: Um, so perhaps you can just give us a little bit of, of the research pieces that you have done Well. 

[00:11:14] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah. So, um. I think first, the first thing to say, and you, you're talking about adjuvant treatments. So I think the first thing to make really, really clear, clear to to everyone is that we don't think of acupuncture as being a cure for cancer.

[00:11:29] Dr Beverley de Valois: Mm-hmm. And I think it's really important to establish that as a ground rule. Okay. So we're using it in the supportive care or the adjuvant care of people undergoing treatment. So we're, and. Broadly, we're trying to, um, alleviate physical symptoms to enable people to continue, uh, their treatments. Often with chemotherapy, we're using it to help manage side effects of, of, um, adjuvant therapies and, and, uh, and.

[00:11:59] Dr Beverley de Valois: Chemotherapy and, and surgery. And also to help, um, manage the emotional consequences of, of all of that cancer experience. So some of the work that I've done, um, has been, uh, my, my first, uh, research project was looking at using, uh, traditional body acupuncture to manage the hot flushes associated with breast cancer treatments.

[00:12:24] Dr Beverley de Valois: And that at, at that time, it was tamoxifen. Um, and then I looked at, um, using ear acupuncture and ear acupuncture protocol, um, to manage this in and treating people in groups, which was quite, seemed quite radical in the uk where people are quite, um, private. Yeah. Um, and so those two, those two studies, uh, comprised my PhD.

[00:12:51] Dr Beverley de Valois: And then I went on to, uh, I got a grant from a prestigious, um, um, NHS, the National Institute for Health Research, um, which is the prestigious medical, uh, research, um, organization in the uk, uh, to look at using acupuncture. Um, and, and then, um, and something called, which I'll explain in a minute, um, to improve, um.

[00:13:19] Dr Beverley de Valois: Quality of life and wellbeing for people with cancer treatment related lymphedema, which, um, many of your listeners may know, is a, is a, um, an unfortunate consequence of, of cancer treatments. Um, and so that was very groundbreaking. Uh, no one ever had had done that before. Um, so, um, that was kind of a landmark study and, and taught.

[00:13:45] Dr Beverley de Valois: Certainly taught me a lot about acupuncture and how it can help people with what we call complex comorbidities, multiple complex comorbidities. People with that have cancer and they have lymphedema as well. And, and those are both have a, a symptom burden associated with them. Um, and then after that, uh, we did various studies.

[00:14:09] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, I, I did a lot of, uh, service evaluation, so, uh, looking at, uh, using, uh, ear acupuncture to help, um, to improve wellbeing of people with, uh, prostate cancer. Um, and a study, uh. To I, I did a, a kind of service evaluation of a clinic that we set up, uh, to, um, use acupuncture to support people, um, who had been treated for, uh, uh, colorectal cancer, colon cancer, and bowel bowel cancers.

[00:14:42] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, what else did we do? Um, we've done a study to, um, see if we could, uh, teach people within the, who were having chemotherapy within the NHS to, um, administer this treatment called motian. So earlier I said acupuncturist about using needles. Uh, a very closely associated treatment of, uh, treatment modality of, of Chinese medicine is Mo Sebastian or moa.

[00:15:15] Dr Beverley de Valois: And this is where, um, you warm the points, uh, using a smoldering herb, uh, called moa. Um, and so that warms the points and you can use that with the needles or instead of the needles. So we were trying to. Teach people to, uh, self moa a point on their leg to see if that would improve their, um, their, their outcomes, their ability to, uh, have treatment on, uh, to dose and on schedule.

[00:15:45] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, so we've done some very interesting. Radical kind of novel intervention studies. Yeah. 

[00:15:53] Kathryn White: Yeah. I was reading, um, I, I have your book, which I'm, I'm going to put, you know, brackets. It's not, um, it's not like a memoir, it is a teaching guide Yes. For acupuncturists. So it's not a light read, but it's a very informative read.

[00:16:10] Kathryn White: Like, I didn't read it cover to cover admittedly, but I was looking at the case studies. Throughout the book, and particularly at the back, you were talking about moa and I'm, I'm so glad that you talked about it because there was one, um, member in your study or actually, which I guess she was in your study, that she was using MOA and then went off of it and then tried it again and you outlined, um, some of the, the, uh, health things that popped up along the way.

[00:16:37] Kathryn White: But I was so curious about what it would look like because you indicated that you taught her this practice. Uh, or this and this technique and to use it on her own. Yeah, 

[00:16:49] Dr Beverley de Valois: yeah, yeah. So, so often, you know, traditional acupuncturists like to be enablers and, and, and our, our key, I think, motivation is to help people live a better life.

[00:17:04] Dr Beverley de Valois: Whether, whether they've had cancer or not had cancer. This, I think this kind of, uh, is the, is the, um. Overall impulse of a traditional acupuncturist. And so we, so we want to give people tools to, to so that they can, so that they don't, so that they can manage their health. And, uh, teaching people to self MOA is, is one of these tools.

[00:17:28] Dr Beverley de Valois: And so MOA comes in little sticks. It's, it's kind of like a cigar, if you like, and what you do is you like the end of it and then you hold it. Um. If, if you imagine that this pencil is my, is my mo stick and this is the light, you will hold it over a point and just gently warm the point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you might do that for one or two or three minutes and then maybe do the point on the other side.

[00:17:56] Dr Beverley de Valois: And it's a lovely treatment. Um, it's, it's warming and it's comforting and, and it's, it's very near, very nice. Um, and so, uh, it's, it's a nice thing to teach people to do. And if you teach them a particular point on the leg, it is at that point in Chinese medicine theory is about, um. Uh, it, it helps to foster the immune system, so, so that, you know, it makes people strong.

[00:18:24] Dr Beverley de Valois: It, it makes their energy strong. So it's a, it's a good, it's a good thing to be able to teach people to do. 

[00:18:30] Kathryn White: Yeah. And uh, one of the things that I've talked about before is the feeling when someone has cancer, the lack of, or the feeling of lack of control and not knowing what to do and, and. Um, and or not financially having the access to other modalities.

[00:18:50] Kathryn White: So to have something like that, that they can do for themself under the guidance, I assume of, of someone like yourself? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You, 

[00:18:59] Dr Beverley de Valois: you want to be taught how to do it safely because you are literally playing with fire. So you want to be able to learn how to administer that so you don't burn yourself, but also you want to be able to learn how to extinguish it.

[00:19:13] Dr Beverley de Valois: Appropriately so you don't burn down your house. 

[00:19:16] Kathryn White: That's a fair point. We safety first. Always indeed. Now, I might be giving you a bit on the spot, but um, do you know if that is something that is accessible in Canada? Um, where I am or where a lot of our listeners are in the United States? Do you know if that's something available?

[00:19:32] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, MAL is available and a lot of practitioner acupuncturists will be taught how toa some schools don't. There are different types of acupuncture, different schools of acupuncture. So some don't, don't use moa, but some do. So, so there, there may be acupuncturists around who do it, and I know that MOA is sold in the States.

[00:19:56] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, and so I have colleagues who use it, so yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:20:00] Kathryn White: Okay. So that's something that if someone was curious, then they could perhaps ask or, or look around for, for someone? Indeed. Yeah. Interesting. Um. And I, I know you specifically were speaking about acupuncture, but in terms of cancer, survivorship and self enabling someone for care, what about acupressure?

[00:20:22] Dr Beverley de Valois: I think that's a very good thing. It's also like Thea, it's, it's very good. So, um. Sometimes, again, just going back to this point on the leg, um, often I have patients who can't use MOA for various reasons, so I teach them how to, um, self, self acupunc, uh, self acupressure. Yeah. So and so ACU acupressure is different from acupuncture in that it uses.

[00:20:51] Dr Beverley de Valois: Pressure on the, on the acupuncture point rather than a needle inserted in it. So, so that becomes something, you know, if your acupuncturist teaches you the points that are, um, relevant to, to your health situation, uh, then you can go away and use those points. And so you can supplement. Your acupuncture treatment with that or, you know, use that to, if you, if finances are a problem or access is a problem, you know, to, to be able to space out your paid for acupuncture treatments by the self, self administered acupressure.

[00:21:27] Kathryn White: Yeah. I, I really love that because I know people want to be able to take care of themselves in between Indeed or in lieu of, and so having tools, this is part of, in my coaching, I try to teach people tools that they can implement themselves so that they can self-regulate and self-manage. And again, take back of that.

[00:21:50] Kathryn White: Um. That feeling of control in their own life. Yes. 

[00:21:54] Dr Beverley de Valois: And I, and that, that is so important. I mean, I think probably, as we all know, you know, that the cancer treatment is good, but it's can be very disempowering. So to to, to reestablish that sense of self and being in control is really, really important. Yeah.

[00:22:11] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah. 

[00:22:12] Kathryn White: Is there anything, any. Um, studies or that you were working through that you had like this profound moment of Oh, that actually is like an amazing, we just learned something really cool, something really new that I'm sure you've had a lot of those moments, but is there something that stands out for you that was like a big Oh wow, that is incredible.

[00:22:35] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah. Um, when we did the lymphedema study, um, I had a woman. A participant. And, uh, I would say that she was the single patient who taught me the most about cancer survivorship, having lymphedema about the potential for acupuncture. And, um, and she inspired my book and it was be because I, I was telling her story and this was such an amazing story and I just felt.

[00:23:10] Dr Beverley de Valois: This needs to be communicated. So I kind of wrote the book in honor of her and, and the, and the last chapter of the book is, is her detailed, uh, case, case study. So we learned a lot. And I think the, the thing that's come outta that, and I'm kind of revisiting this now, is how, um, you know, acupuncture can facilitate a process that helps to engender, um.

[00:23:40] Dr Beverley de Valois: Improved healthcare in long term. Um, so in my book I present a model of that and, and I'm really doing a lot of lecturing around that. So, so it's beautiful. So it's a process. It's thinking about acupuncture as a process, 

[00:23:58] Dr Beverley de Valois: right? 

[00:23:59] Dr Beverley de Valois: That that leads to, yeah. So, and, and this is important because when I talk to oncologists and consultants, they have this idea that, you know, a person might have acupuncture, but they have to go on having it for, for their entire life.

[00:24:14] Dr Beverley de Valois: You know, if they're managing what? So the, and they, it's very hard to convey to them that, you know, acupuncture kinda starts, can facilitate a healing process in the body that, um. In the model, we look at it, it, it reduces the symptom burdens, but also so many people who have acupuncture come and say, I've had so much more energy since I've had acupuncture.

[00:24:40] Dr Beverley de Valois: And when you get this nice little, uh. Cycle of things happening. You have acupuncture, your symptom burden goes down, your energy increases. Uh, we call that, I call that enabled coping so people can start coping better. Um, and, and this is a model that can apply to any chronic illness as well as, you know, in addition to cancer.

[00:25:04] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, and then you get this nice cascade of events. So once you start being able to cope better. With your situation and, and with your condition, um, you start being more motivated. You start taking control, more control of things. You start becoming more active in your own self-care. And of course we know that that just leads to better long-term health outcomes.

[00:25:28] Dr Beverley de Valois: So I think that, and that was just amazing outta that, that study. Yeah, 

[00:25:34] Kathryn White: it's true that. When you can, when you take, can feel better and take care of your physical self, it really makes a difference in, in your mental health and your emotional wellbeing. That is my own experience and the experience I see with my clients that when they move from, um, fear that I'm afraid to do anything because my medical plan is this into starting to create different spaces, different movement, different thought patterns.

[00:26:04] Kathryn White: It really. It really does create a profound shift. I know for myself, I'm, I'm now 11 years out from when I was told that I have cancer. I have had multiple recurrences over that time, but just that mental shift of knowing that I could do something for myself, I, I think, has been a huge part of my survivorship story because I, I did not allow myself to feel disempowered.

[00:26:33] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yes. I think that's really important. Yeah. 

[00:26:37] Kathryn White: Um, I, I'm not sure, I'm not sure where this will go, um, but I'm wondering about, I, I do hear from people quite a bit, resistance from their medical teams for non-conventional medical treatments. Do you have thoughts or, I don't, I don't wanna put you on the spot and make it uncomfortable for you.

[00:27:00] Dr Beverley de Valois: I think it, I think it's unfortunate. Um, but I understand it. People, you know, medical teams want their patients to be safe. Um, and, and some of the stuff around might not be safe and some of the stuff around might not be evidence-based. Um, and so I think. I think that's understandable that that caution is understandable where acupuncture is concerned.

[00:27:32] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, there's a lot of, you know, there's been a lot of research done into acupuncture generally and in acupuncture in cancer care, uh, both in China and throughout the west. So there's a huge body of, of, uh, research there. Um, and. You know, research is always a little bit dicey because, um, you know, the re acupuncture is very hard to, uh, research in the, in the, in the way that research is set up to do the double, you know, the double-blinded, randomized gold, standard randomized control trial.

[00:28:11] Dr Beverley de Valois: So there's always qualifiers there. But, you know, one of the things that we. Can ascertain from, from the research that's be done is it is a safe intervention. Um, acupuncture delivered by a properly trained, qualified acupuncturist is a safe intervention and can be used safely, um, at, at any stage of the cancer journey.

[00:28:34] Dr Beverley de Valois: And so one of the, the one of the publications that you mentioned, uh, that I've worked on, um, I had the. Great privilege to lead an international collaboration to come up with, with recommendations for the safe practice of acupuncture. And this is a really important document. It's, it's really taken off, uh, around world and, and it's being used to reassure, I think, uh.

[00:29:00] Dr Beverley de Valois: People on all sorts of levels. It's written for acupuncturists, but it can be used to reassure patients, reassure decision makers, reassure acupunc, um, oncologists, that that acupuncture is a safe practice. That there is, you know, a quality assurance there. Um, and that it, that it can be used. So that, so that's one, um, one aspect.

[00:29:24] Dr Beverley de Valois: There's really good work being done in the States now by the Society for Integrative Oncology. Uh, they have published a lot, a lot of, uh, and are publishing a lot of, uh, clinical guidelines to inform. Uh, healthcare professionals, uh, about the, um, you know, the wider range of integrative, uh, what are called integrative therapies so that they have a website that's a really good website, uh, to direct, uh, your oncologist to, if, if they're not keen on you having these therapies.

[00:29:57] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, got some really good, uh, training resources and resources to help, you know, the, the medical profession, uh, to understand. Therapies, so that's really good. 

[00:30:10] Kathryn White: Can you, um, do you know off the top of the head what the, off your head, what the, off the top of your head, what the website address is? 

[00:30:19] Dr Beverley de Valois: Um, no, but I can look it up very, very quickly.

[00:30:22] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah. 

[00:30:22] Kathryn White: Yeah. I think that would be such a great tool for people to have. And while you're doing that, I was thinking as you were sharing, I bet I might gift my oncologist your book. Um, because it, it really would be such a great thing for the, the oncology center, you know, here where, where I live to have that kind of information because I know patients want to know more and want more.

[00:30:48] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:30:49] Dr Beverley de Valois: Okay, so that is integrative onc.org. 

[00:30:54] Kathryn White: Oh, there you go. Integrative on.org. Okay. Yeah, I'll put that in the show notes. Also, 

[00:30:59] Dr Beverley de Valois: the other, the other very good resource that I like very much, uh, the National Cancer Institute. There's uh, something called PDQ. What are they called? Their PDQ series. And so, um, they will take a topic and they will, uh, look at it and they'll produce two versions of it.

[00:31:20] Dr Beverley de Valois: One for um, patients and one for healthcare professionals. The healthcare professional one is very much about, uh, looking at the evidence space, um, and the, um, the. Uh, patients focused one is, is a little bit friendlier. Um, but, um, but those, those are really, really good documents and, and I would point those people to those, um, as well.

[00:31:50] Kathryn White: That's wonderful. Thank you. 'cause I, I'm, um, I'm in the process of writing a second book and it's going to be focused on young adults with cancer. Um, because that is certainly something that is on the rise and, and we are seeing more studies coming out about it and, and not a lot of. Supports. There are supports, but not a lot of supports, and it's, 

[00:32:12] Dr Beverley de Valois: yes, 

[00:32:12] Kathryn White: it's really something.

[00:32:13] Kathryn White: It's actually very concerning. As the mom of two young adults, it concerns me that, and with my own family history, you know that this is happening. What I have learned is that. The younger adults, those 20 and 30 year olds and now into their forties are very active in doing their own research. They are on the internet and they are looking at things, and so part of having you today, here today is to provide that guidance to, again, peer reviewed evidence-based information, but they really.

[00:32:46] Kathryn White: Want to be part of the process. They seem to be very like, no, I'm going to dig in. Whereas I was just like, tell me what I need to do. That was 10 years ago and, and I'm just going to do it. And I was afraid to look, but I think they just have this other level of curiosity and also this need to know what is happening.

[00:33:08] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, those are two good sources to to, to point them to. Yeah. 

[00:33:14] Speaker 2: Perfect. Thank you for sharing that. So, um, if someone is interested in acupuncturist part, part of their survivorship plan and they, uh, find an acupuncturist or they are looking for an acupuncturist, do you have any suggestions or recommendations around questions that they might be asking or, um, who they should be talking to?

[00:33:38] Dr Beverley de Valois: So, um. That would be an easier question for me to answer if you were based in the uk because I, I know that the kind of structure in the UK quite well. Um, so I don't know. I'm not that familiar with the intricacies of acupuncture in Canada, which of course changes from province to province. 

[00:34:02] Kathryn White: Yes, 

[00:34:04] Dr Beverley de Valois: we're working 

[00:34:04] Kathryn White: on 

[00:34:04] Dr Beverley de Valois: that.

[00:34:06] Dr Beverley de Valois: So the, um. You know, obviously you want to know about a person's training about whether they're insured, um, whether they, uh, how much expertise they have in this and in, in ca in cancer, how much understanding they have of cancer and its treatments formally, you know, mainstream so that they can understand what's happening to a, to a person with cancer.

[00:34:37] Dr Beverley de Valois: Does that make sense? I think those would the would be the top three questions I can think of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then 

[00:34:43] Kathryn White: just this, um, once they find someone and have the conversation of, obviously they disclosing their own health situation, this is what I'm going through, this is what I'm experiencing. And then leaving that to the acupuncturist to, to sort out what they, what they would do or whether they would even want to or not.

[00:35:03] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always, I always, with my first treatments, I always say this is a learning experience for both of us. 'cause I don't know you and I don't know your energy. They may or may not have had an acupuncture before. So sometimes it's an introduction to acupuncture. If they've had acupuncture before, it will be an introduction to having acupuncture with me.

[00:35:25] Dr Beverley de Valois: So I say, you know, here, this, this first treatment, we're exploring something, and at the end of it, you can make a decision about whether you want to work with me and I can make a, you know, I can make a decision about whether I can help you. Um, so, and, and I, I pitch it very much as, you know, we are working together to improve your health.

[00:35:48] Dr Beverley de Valois: So I don't. I don't, uh, position myself as someone who knows everything and, and does everything. So we're working together and we're exploring together and moving forward, um, in, in improving 

[00:36:03] Dr Beverley de Valois: their health, I think. Yeah. 

[00:36:05] Kathryn White: Yeah. And you know, cancer is such an individual process like. Odd diagnosis, you could line, I always say you could line 10 people up with the same diagnosis and it's going to be individual to each of those people.

[00:36:18] Kathryn White: So I guess yes, that, that I answered the question that it is a very personal experience and so asking Yeah. You know, some questions and getting to know who the, the practitioner is and, um, and then I suppose the practitioner can decide where they, where they want to go with that. 

[00:36:34] Dr Beverley de Valois: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:36:36] Kathryn White: Perfect.

[00:36:37] Kathryn White: Okay. Um, this has been such a great conversation around your work and the work that you're doing in relation to cancer and I, I said at the beginning, you know, I really feel it's important for people who are living with or in recovery from cancer to have. Options and opportunities. So this, uh, this sharing and education that you provided is just fantastic.

[00:37:00] Kathryn White: I appreciate that. And I'm, I'm, I know that the listeners will glean what they need from this conversation, but 

[00:37:06] Dr Beverley de Valois: brilliant. 

[00:37:07] Kathryn White: Before I let you go, I do always ask one final question and, um, that is, what does living to Thrive mean to you? 

[00:37:18] Dr Beverley de Valois: I think living to thrive means. Being able to live a fulfilling life. And, and again, I think a traditional acupuncturist, their, their impetus is to help people, uh, fulfill their potential.

[00:37:36] Dr Beverley de Valois: And often when we have, when a, when a cancer, when cancer, um, is, is part of someone's life, their potential changes, they, they may be, they may have a different potential. After their diagnosis and treatment than before, but it's helping to, um, really help that person reach their potential, whatever the situation is.

[00:38:02] Dr Beverley de Valois: So, yeah. 

[00:38:03] Kathryn White: Yeah. And there is so much potential. Yeah, 

[00:38:07] Dr Beverley de Valois: indeed. And, and there is so much that acupuncture can do to help a person realize that. 

[00:38:14] Kathryn White: Beautiful. Well, I hope that this conversation has inspired some curiosity. I expect that it has and that people will, um, want to know more and seek out wherever they are living, perhaps an acupuncturist who can help them with that.

[00:38:29] Kathryn White: I will share your, uh, information in the show notes. If people are more. Want to know a little bit more about you and the work that you do and um, and if they are interested in your book, I will share a link in there also. It is, it is very interesting if you have that brain is of like, I need to know why.

[00:38:47] Kathryn White: It is very interesting 

[00:38:49] Dr Beverley de Valois: and I think the case, I, I mean I, the case studies are very important parts, so even just, I think even just. Reading the chapter on cancer survivorship, if you're a cancer survivor, and looking at the case studies would be very informative and show people one, the challenges that people, the cancer survivors.

[00:39:08] Dr Beverley de Valois: May face and how acupuncture can help them. 

[00:39:12] Kathryn White: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. I was gonna say that section on survivorship is really very interesting and helpful. So, um, I will make sure that your book is linked in the show notes. 

[00:39:23] Dr Beverley de Valois: Thank you. And can I say thank you for, um, having me on your podcast and thank you for, um, spreading the word about acupuncture and cancer survivorship and my, my work, um, in Canada.

[00:39:34] Dr Beverley de Valois: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. 

[00:39:37] Kathryn White: You are very welcome. I'm so grateful, as I said, to well, to be learning and, and then to be able to direct people to this treatment as a part of survivorship. I'm, I'm grateful for your time, for you being here today. 

[00:39:51] Dr Beverley de Valois: Thank you. 

[00:39:53] Kathryn White: Okay. So again, as I just said, thank you to Dr.

[00:39:56] Kathryn White: De Valois Wa for being here today for sharing this education piece around acupuncture and how it can be part of cancer survivorship. Um. Your information will be in the show notes for the people who want to know more, and um, I just want to remind people that if you've found what you've learned here today to be helpful, please share this episode and information with other people that you know could benefit from it.

[00:40:22] Kathryn White: Sharing helps both Dr. De Valois and myself to support more people living with cancer and help them to move from survivor to thriver. And if you are, um, sharing this, and this is perhaps even your first time listening to the podcast, go ahead and subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening. Follow it on YouTube and head to the show notes to get your name on my weekly email list, um, so that you can get a free little gift from me and stay informed about conversations like the one that we've had with Dr.

[00:40:51] Kathryn White: De Valois Wa here today. Again, Dr. De Valois Wa thank you, thank you, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Pleasure having you. And um, I'm sure that we will cross paths again in the future. 

[00:41:04] Dr Beverley de Valois: Thank you. I hope so. I look forward to that. 

[00:41:07] Kathryn White: Wonderful. Thank you. Take care. 

[00:41:10] Dr Beverley de Valois: Thank you. 

[00:41:12] Kathryn White: Thank you so much for joining me on the Living to Thrive with Cancer Podcast.

[00:41:16] Kathryn White: I hope you have a beautiful rest of the day and may you live your life to your fullest. Follow your heart and thrive in all you 

[00:41:23] Kathryn White: do. 

[00:41:25] Kathryn White: Now for the serious stuff, the contents of this podcast are solely the opinion of the podcaster who is not a physician. The information is presented for educational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose or prescribe for any medical or psychological condition.

[00:41:42] Kathryn White: Not to prevent, treat, mitigate, or cure such condition. The advice in this podcast is not intended as medical advice and should not replace a one-to-one relationship with a doctor or qualified healthcare professional.