Navigating the Cost of Cancer: Insurance, Bills & Financial Support

Today we are talking about the financial reality of a cancer diagnosis the costs that show up immediately, the ones that creep in quietly over time, and what you can actually do to protect yourself and your family, whether you are 28 or 68 and navigating life with cancer.

By the end of this episode, you will know the financial pressure points that affect people at every stage of life after a diagnosis, feel less alone in the overwhelm that comes when medical bills meet mortgage payments and career uncertainty, and have a practical starting point for taking financial action even when everything feels out of your control.

A cancer diagnosis doesn't just change your health. It changes your financial life often immediately and without warning.

The real-world truth is this: the cost of cancer is not just the co-pays and the prescriptions. It is the income you lose when you cannot work. It is the career decisions you make under duress. It is the retirement savings you dip into. It is the caregiver who quietly reduces their hours to be present. It is the young adult who has to move home. It is the parent who is terrified about what happens to their family if things don't go the way they hope.

And it looks different depending on where you are in life. A 32-year-old navigating a diagnosis is asking very different financial questions than a 58-year-old. Both are valid. Both deserve answers.

In This Episode You'll Learn:

1. Why the financial cost of cancer goes far beyond medical bills and what expenses most people don't see coming
2. The key financial conversations to have immediately after a diagnosis
3. What young adults specifically need to know about income protection, student loans, and building stability mid-treatment
4. How older adults can navigate retirement accounts, insurance, and long-term planning during and after cancer
5. Practical steps you can take right now, even if your finances feel completely upended

The financial weight of cancer is real. You don't have to carry it alone, and you don't have to figure it out without support. 

Ready to build a life that supports your healing including the financial piece?

Connect with Shannon through The New School of Finance

Shannon's book No Regret Decisions

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Kathryn White: Welcome to the Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. I'm Kathryn White, holistic cancer coach and author. This is the place where we trade fear for hope, confusion for clarity, and overwhelm for empowered action. Whether you are newly diagnosed, living with cancer, or navigating life beyond it, each episode I'll share tools, insights, and real life inspiration to help you create a life that feels good 

[00:00:26] Shannon Lee Simmons: to live right now in the middle of it all.

[00:00:29] Shannon Lee Simmons: Let's thrive together.

[00:00:35] Kathryn White: Welcome to The Living to Thrive with Cancer podcast. I'm Catherine White Cancer coach, stage four colon cancer, thriver and author of Living to Thrive, A Holistic Guide to Living with Cancer. If you are new here, I want to welcome you to the podcast. This podcast is for anyone living with cancer in treatment, post-treatment, or who is supporting someone who is living with cancer.

[00:00:56] Kathryn White: My mission is to help you to move from survivor to thriver. Today's episode is a conversation that is so important and that I think it doesn't happen a lot and maybe doesn't get the attention that it deserves, and that's talking about the cost of cancer and the financial burden that it can create. So I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast Shannon Lee Simmons.

[00:01:22] Kathryn White: Shannon, thank you so much for being here today. 

[00:01:24] Shannon Lee Simmons: I'm so, so honored to be here. 

[00:01:27] Kathryn White: I loved everything that you said on the CRAN Conference for the Young Adult Cancer Symposium, and I was like, I knew that you were the person I needed to have on this podcast to help my my listeners unpack this. Not always talked about conversation.

[00:01:42] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. Well, I'm honored to do so, and I think it is important as well. 

[00:01:46] Kathryn White: Wonderful. Well, before we get all of your wisdom, um, I'm just gonna tell the listeners a little bit more about you. So as I said, we have Shannon Lee Simmons here with us today. She is an award-winning certified financial planner, speaker, bestselling author of.

[00:02:01] Kathryn White: Four books, chartered Investment Manager and founder of the New School of Finance. She is a personal finance writer for the Globe and Mail, as well as CBC radio's, Metro Morning Money columnist. I cannot think of a better person to be here today. 

[00:02:18] Shannon Lee Simmons: Thank you. 

[00:02:20] Kathryn White: Alright. I feel like there's a lot of ground to cover and that, um, we should probably just dive in.

[00:02:27] Shannon Lee Simmons: Ah, 

[00:02:28] Kathryn White: so one of the things when I was going through my own walk with cancer was the funny little costs that pop up along the way and the, um, not going to work anymore. And the whole impact that actually doesn't. Seemed to get the attention that it deserves around the outside of the medical system, pieces of cancer.

[00:02:51] Kathryn White: So I thought that perhaps we might be able to have that conversation about the things that people maybe don't think about, or they get into the middle of cancer and they're like, well, where did this come from? I wasn't expecting that. 

[00:03:05] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think the main thing that I've seen from just, um, some of my clients who have gone through this experience or they're supporting somebody that's going through this, this experience is like the, there's the shock, right, of first, if you get a diagnosis, um, there's the disruption of income.

[00:03:28] Shannon Lee Simmons: There's the replacement income, is it enough, is it not enough? If there's it, a disability policy, what, where does that land with the household cash flow? And then there's other expenses that maybe people are not thinking about, whether it's extra sorts of treatment outside of, um, you know, like if they're doing ancillaries types of treatments, if they're seeing a natural path, if they're doing other things.

[00:03:47] Shannon Lee Simmons: There's the parking, there's the different types of foods. There's all of this other stuff that doesn't necessarily get the support and the. Uh, fundamentally as well is it's a crisis. Mm-hmm. So, so like how much of your original trajectory do you just stop? Do you stop it and do you pause it? What are we doing?

[00:04:11] Shannon Lee Simmons: And so I often end up, you know, right there with somebody in the middle of a crisis because they're worried about the long term and the short run big time. And so it's. A complicated emotional. And frustrating and hard, like hard moment in a life, uh, if you get a diagnosis. And so, um, you know the best you can.

[00:04:34] Shannon Lee Simmons: That's what hopefully today, if we can talk about some of the things that can help navigate that crisis. Right. 

[00:04:39] Kathryn White: Yeah, that would be so great. Because like you mentioned like job disruption, like going on disability worst. Oh, 

[00:04:45] Shannon Lee Simmons: parking is brutal. 

[00:04:47] Kathryn White: Parking is brutal. 

[00:04:48] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. And 100%. And for the medical, for, uh, travel and stuff, like, actually let's, we can get to that.

[00:04:57] Shannon Lee Simmons: I don't wanna get into the two specifics right now. So anyway, that's, um, I guess maybe, maybe I would start off with you, with, you know, where does one start? I think maybe that. 

[00:05:06] Kathryn White: That's a great conversation. Hi, you have cancer. Your life has been completely disrupted and go. 

[00:05:14] Shannon Lee Simmons: Go. Yeah. Um, so I think the first thing is sort of, um, if you can stomach it, uh, is like a damage control situation, right?

[00:05:23] Shannon Lee Simmons: So, so even though you might be dealing with this crisis, knowing what income might be coming in or not. Is very important. So this is where you're, you're looking into whether or not you've got disability insurance, whether or not you've got critical illness insurance, how much, right? Dusting off those envelopes that you might have never opened.

[00:05:41] Shannon Lee Simmons: Um, sending emails to people, making sure things qualify, like all of those sort of pieces. And if you have somebody who can support you in your life, this would be a wonderful thing for them to help you with, is to help navigate that or just keep you motivated or do other things. So that you can focus what little bandwidth and attention you might have to do something like that.

[00:06:00] Shannon Lee Simmons: Um, and so there's two parts to money, what's coming in and what's going out. It's just, it's honestly that simple. And so if you are about to take time off of work unexpectedly, so what we need to find out what that income is. So talking to work immediately and if they have a short, if there's any sort of benefits there or if there's time off that you can take, um, and your, as I said, your insurance policies or anything like that.

[00:06:23] Shannon Lee Simmons: So getting that on. Figured out the second piece, once you know what the resources are like, once you know what the money coming is, then it's sort of mapping out how do you utilize that to stay as calm as possible and to cover everything. So I mean, it is ultimately a budget, but it is a crisis budget.

[00:06:41] Shannon Lee Simmons: This is not your standard budget. This is not a budget where I'm like, this is sustainable for the rest of your life. This is like a emergency measure sort of sort of thing. So. Uh, that's often where I come in and we make something called, and I think I did talk about this on the cran um, uh, panel. I often, when we're dealing with a crisis, uh, we talk about like micro timelines.

[00:07:04] Shannon Lee Simmons: So I will make a plan for somebody for. Three months, not three years. Not not a year. 'cause we don't know what financial challenges are gonna be there in three months. It could all look super different. And so things will be, if we know how much money we're making, uh, for the next three months, then we can make a plan on that, right?

[00:07:24] Shannon Lee Simmons: So, okay, fine. Um, so what do we have to pay for over the next three months and how are we gonna use this income? Plus if you, if you have a partner, what, what's their income gonna be like? Like what do we do? And often we start. Stopping savings. Okay. So if you have, if you've been, I have automatic payments that go to my RSP, blah blah.

[00:07:43] Shannon Lee Simmons: Like stop. 

[00:07:45] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:07:46] Shannon Lee Simmons: Right. Stop. Guilt free. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And so what I'm often doing with people is saying, it's only three months. That's not gonna make or break through retirement. Right. That's just, it's just not enough money to, but it can make or break how much stress you feel at this. Mm, critical moment in your, in your life.

[00:08:04] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:04] Shannon Lee Simmons: So don't feel any guilt about that. Let's go, let go of that. So it's like stopping the savings can often be a way, um, immediately to budget and then looking at things that you have to pay for and getting those outta the way. And then what's left over, if anything, because it can often be a huge drop.

[00:08:19] Shannon Lee Simmons: And figuring out if there's gonna be a need to utilize debt, that's like the number one thing as a sort of damage control. Piece that you can do to feel in control, right? And to not spiral that things are going to be financially devastating forever is that you, you know what you're gonna make. And we make these small plans.

[00:08:38] Shannon Lee Simmons: And if there is a shortfall and there's debt, how are we gonna do that strategically? Hmm. In this period of time, because a lot of people go into debt when they have a diagnosis. It's just sort of a thing that happens. And I just wanted to say that, to normalize it for anyone who's going through something like that.

[00:08:55] Shannon Lee Simmons: And, uh, I call it a controlled burn. 

[00:08:58] Kathryn White: Thank you for all of that. I love that. Um, and I love that you bring it into like a three month window because, you know, once the diagnosis lands in the body and the brain, it, it becomes almost day to day. So and so, yeah, forward projecting can be really difficult. So at least three months it's like, okay, I can, I can manage maybe three months and then this, 

[00:09:20] Shannon Lee Simmons: or three weeks, 

[00:09:21] Kathryn White: or even, yeah, 

[00:09:22] Shannon Lee Simmons: three weeks.

[00:09:23] Shannon Lee Simmons: I have literally made plans for people for three weeks. Because it's all they could predict, because they'll know more in three weeks and it's like, great, that's okay too. Just whatever gives you a sense of control. 

[00:09:36] Kathryn White: And control is such a huge thing. I mean, money is often an uncomfortable conversation anyway, and then adding that extra layer on top of you now have this financial and medical situation that's going on.

[00:09:49] Kathryn White: I, I do like that idea of the slow burn. It's like, let's just slow it all down. Let's, yes, things are kind of, there's a little bit of a hair fire going on, but. And we can manage it when we have the conversations around it. 

[00:10:02] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah, I think sometimes we're so scared to look at numbers and that's for somebody with or without a diagnosis.

[00:10:08] Shannon Lee Simmons: Right? Some like money in general can freak us out and in the best of circumstances we can not wanna look at our numbers. Right? And so if you've just had the rug pulled out from underneath you and, and your health, um, and. It can be. I think people might be nervous or scared that it's gonna make their trauma even worse.

[00:10:28] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm. Right. 

[00:10:29] Shannon Lee Simmons: So, so there's a fear of mapping it out because what if it is as bad as I'm, what if it is as bad as I think it's going to be? 

[00:10:37] Kathryn White: Yes. 

[00:10:38] Shannon Lee Simmons: But I have learned over the years, anecdotally from the clients that I've helped, um, is that it's never probably as bad as 3:00 AM You thinks Right. The 3:00 AM versions of ourselves are our worst enemies.

[00:10:51] Kathryn White: So that has a whole list going on. Yeah. 

[00:10:54] Shannon Lee Simmons: Three hates me. So, so like, I, I feel like. I feel like there's no like. Having that mapped out and, and those small, tangible timelines, um, actually can help make it less scary because you realize that there are still some things that are in your control. You can make your life 60% normal.

[00:11:14] Shannon Lee Simmons: You can, which I think is a very important piece of finances. Like when we're looking at what the spending is like, we go through sometimes, uh, I talk about this in, um, no regret decisions. When you're in a crisis like that, and you have to reduce your spending to survive it, uh, financially, um, is like, if it's too much change all at once, it will be triggering and it will feel scarier.

[00:11:36] Shannon Lee Simmons: Mm-hmm. So while you're reducing expenses, what are the ones that you wanna bring with you? Still, even if they feel foolish or they feel, um, what's the word? Like, uh, frivolous. Maybe they aren't because they, they keep a part of your old life. Um, kind of consistent and steady throughout. So a great example of this is I had somebody that was diagnosed, um, with cancer and they're, they are used to going every day to get a coffee on their way to work, and it's like a $5 latte.

[00:12:08] Shannon Lee Simmons: It's very expensive. There's no need for that with them off of work. However, that is like a part of their independence and their feeling of like normalcy to continue to do that. So it's almost like permission. To, to bring some of these, to not be afraid that this isn't a frivolous expense. This is something that makes you feel normal and in control at a time when nothing is in your, when your whole life has been turned upside down.

[00:12:31] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. So I think it, it can actually help to actually make people feel less scared. And then if there is a shortfall, which is what everyone's afraid of, and there's gonna be debt, knowing what that debt is gonna be, is it $1,000 a month? Is it $3,000 a month? What's the shortfall? Can you call your mortgage and get them deposit for, for 90 days?

[00:12:51] Shannon Lee Simmons: Can you, what can you do to sort of reduce those costs? And once we know what that is, let's say that you have $2,000 a month deficit. Okay? So we have a $2,000 a month deficit. Mm-hmm. And that in three months when we check in, that'll be $6,000. And it's like, sometimes what I'll do is I'll map out, I'll map that out.

[00:13:12] Shannon Lee Simmons: And let's say that you took that on over a full year. Okay. On the other side of this, this is how that would be dealt with, and here's how much interest that's gonna be. So I'll extrapolate it out to that. Lynn, let's, okay, so you've got $24,000, you're paying three $3,500 in interest. Is that worth a complete spiral and everything like that?

[00:13:36] Shannon Lee Simmons: Or are you just like, that is the cost of this crisis, 

[00:13:39] Kathryn White: right. 

[00:13:41] Shannon Lee Simmons: And I will deal with that on the other side. 

[00:13:44] Kathryn White: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:45] Shannon Lee Simmons: So sometimes there's a permission to do something that we all believe to be financially irresponsible, and the most responsible thing you can do is just be realistic. 

[00:13:54] Kathryn White: Hmm. 

[00:13:55] Shannon Lee Simmons: Like a controlled burn.

[00:13:57] Shannon Lee Simmons: And when you get to the other side of this so you don't have to worry about it, you just take your $2,000 a month and you don't worry about it anymore. And you can keep your kids in hockey, you know what I mean? Like 

[00:14:08] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:14:09] Shannon Lee Simmons: Because it's not, it, it it still life, right? Yeah. Like after it's just, and so we don't need to just, we, we, there's a future still.

[00:14:18] Shannon Lee Simmons: It's just right now is a dark, dark moment. 

[00:14:21] Kathryn White: Yes. I wanna come back to something that you mentioned. Um, all of that is so great. You dropped mortgages into the conversation. My new public service announcement for everybody is, please get mortgage insurance, uh, mortgage insurance, and line of credit insurance, because I was able to have my mortgage paused and that made.

[00:14:42] Kathryn White: An exponential difference in the finances in our household, because I went off on disability for almost two years and then made the choice to not go back to work, but that bridge to support us as we tried to figure out where my story was even going to go, made such a difference. And it's amazing how many people I've talked to who don't have mortgage or a line of credit insurance that, 

[00:15:05] Shannon Lee Simmons: yeah.

[00:15:05] Shannon Lee Simmons: And I think most of the time people will assume that's. Life insurance, right? So if you pass away, then it gets paid off, but not necessarily if you, um, can't work. I would also just sort of on the flip side of that offer that if you don't have those products, um, there's also critical illness insurance which could act similarly and maybe even, um, be a, a product that would be.

[00:15:27] Shannon Lee Simmons: Like, for example, a Morg mortgage. If you pay for mortgage insurance, then the benefit sort of decreases as you go on, as you pay it down. Whereas if you have a, um, a disability policy, it pays the same amount no matter where you're at in your mortgage or if you have critical illness insurance. By the way, I don't sell any of this, so I just think that's really important for people to listen that, that are listening to know that like I don't sell insurance.

[00:15:49] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. Um, is that, you know, if you have a critical illness policy that pays out $50,000, that's gonna pay out $50,000. Regardless of whether you have debt or not. And regardless of if you owe 300,000 or 500,000 on your mortgage, it's going to pay it out the same. So I do think that there's still options outside of that.

[00:16:08] Shannon Lee Simmons: But what I agree, what, and I agree, what I think Catherine, is what we're both saying is like everyone hates insurance until you. 

[00:16:16] Kathryn White: Yes, 

[00:16:17] Shannon Lee Simmons: everybody, including myself, I see that, I see those premiums every month. And I'm like, damn you. Yes. Um, and I hope I never need it. I hope it's a pain in my ass, the whole, my whole life.

[00:16:26] Shannon Lee Simmons: You know what I mean? Yes. That's what I hope. And, and, and I will celebrate if that's the case. And so I, um, I don't think we need to be as resentful, um, about paying premiums for insurance because they're. Critical illness does happen and there is, I have seen it. I have seen it as a financial planner be a lifeline for people in crisis.

[00:16:49] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yes. In a health crisis, 

[00:16:51] Kathryn White: yes. It really having, um, just that knowledge that there's some support there that you actually don't really have to think about. I don't think. Like it just sort of, you activate it and magically it's just starts to happen in your Yeah. As long as you're 

[00:17:06] Shannon Lee Simmons: qualifying and all that kind of stuff.

[00:17:08] Shannon Lee Simmons: And that's a different, that's a 

[00:17:09] Kathryn White: different podcast episode. 

[00:17:10] Shannon Lee Simmons: That's all. 

[00:17:11] Kathryn White: Can we just not even talk about travel insurance? That is like a nightmare For someone with a, a cancer diagnosis, it can be very challenging. 

[00:17:19] Shannon Lee Simmons: I bet, 

[00:17:20] Kathryn White: yes. But we're here to talk about finances, which, you know, traveling can be a part of finances, enjoying life, trying to find things that bring you joy throughout the process.

[00:17:30] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. And I think that that is part of that financial picture after the crisis is over. Right? Once there we're back on the thriving, not just surviving, um, trajectory. There are all those other lasting sort of financial. Impacts to a life, right? Like higher, higher insurance premiums, higher travel insurance.

[00:17:48] Shannon Lee Simmons: Maybe there are specific dietary things or, or maybe you can rejoin the workforce, but at a different or a lower income than was like your previous trajectory. And so, so that's, there's phases, right? So like there's the crisis phase, which is the damage control, and then there's the messy middle as I call it, which is like you're out of the sort of crisis phase, but life is still.

[00:18:10] Shannon Lee Simmons: Getting back to normal, it doesn't feel like you're settled on whatever is coming next. 

[00:18:14] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:18:15] Shannon Lee Simmons: And then the final phase is sort of like a, I call it your new normal, which is like, or not your new normal. Your your next normal. Mm. Which is like, it's like a, it's like where you pop out. On the other side, once, you know, sort of like what the future holds for you and, and, um, with, with your health and with what is possible on the other side as far as like earning and spending.

[00:18:37] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. 

[00:18:37] Kathryn White: Yeah. And you know, in, in the world of cancer, like, so for myself being a classroom teacher, I taught grade eight forever. And. After cancer, I knew that this brain and this body would not be able to navigate a busy grade eight classroom. Yeah. And, and even was offered, you know, would you like to go to halftime?

[00:18:55] Kathryn White: Would you like to go to third time? And I was like, you know what? I think this is my reset. And, and blessed to be able to do that thanks to my husband's employer and, um, his income. But it, it really, those kinds of changes that you don't expect. Yeah. 43 years old, I'm suddenly no longer. Receiving the income as a full-time teacher was, made a huge difference in our household.

[00:19:18] Shannon Lee Simmons: Oh, for sure. And that's the, that's part of what is so difficult on the other side, which is why I appreciate your podcast so much because there's, there is a, there's a lot of talk about what's happening in the, the crisis moment, right? And then it's like, but what happens after? And I think when it comes to the financial part of that, there's an adjustment of expectations.

[00:19:41] Shannon Lee Simmons: There's an adjustment of lifestyle. There's an adjustment of all of that stuff for most people after a health crisis and. The thing I've learned, and maybe you can speak to this too, is like if there's been a health crisis, often it's like who cares? I'm just happy to be like, I'm happy to be here. 

[00:19:59] Kathryn White: Yes.

[00:19:59] Shannon Lee Simmons: Right. Like there's a deep appreciation and a major restructuring of values and what just doesn't matter. That felt so important before. 

[00:20:07] Kathryn White: Hundred 

[00:20:08] Shannon Lee Simmons: percent just doesn't, doesn't matter anymore. 

[00:20:10] Kathryn White: Yes. 

[00:20:10] Shannon Lee Simmons: So there's a refreshing look at money again on the other side of things as well. It's easier to adjust, it's easier to, um.

[00:20:20] Shannon Lee Simmons: Just sort of, um, make plans that feel comfortable because more things feel comfortable because you've faced death, right. And mm-hmm. And you've come out the other side. So it's very cathartic. And also, um, I feel like that's where it's, it's, it's like you can thrive after finance. Like, because emotionally you can thrive after with your finances too, even if it's changed drastically from what it was originally supposed to be.

[00:20:47] Kathryn White: Yes. Yeah. There's a, it is a whole other world, the, the after cancer part of life. Yeah. And just what is really important and what isn't. And, you know, um, I, I do, I wanna address very quickly and maybe briefly, that some of the, of our listeners are not Canadian. They are in the American system. And so they obviously would have different rules around financing, different, you know, they have.

[00:21:12] Kathryn White: Um, 400 Ks versus our RSPs or, you know, access to things, different medical systems with different costs. And so life during and after. Um, I know I can't speak to it, I don't know that you can speak to it, but it's just to acknowledge those people that are listening that, you know, we are doing the best to have a broad conversation here around it.

[00:21:34] Kathryn White: And of course everyone's circumstances are different. 

[00:21:37] Shannon Lee Simmons: Right. And if you, exactly, so we have a different healthcare system here, so we may not have, have the big bills left after, right. That some people might. 

[00:21:45] Kathryn White: Yeah. Yeah. And so the, like, the after cancer part, well, no, let's stay in the in cancer part for a minute.

[00:21:52] Kathryn White: Talking, we talked about the expenses that, um, you know, I live within 15 minutes of my hospital and here in London. Ontario that my oncologist is 15 minutes away. I did all of my cancer treatment here in St. Thomas, Ontario where I physically live, which was seven minutes away. Like I got to go home and sleep in my own bed every night.

[00:22:14] Kathryn White: My husband, um, did rent a space when I had a big surgery. A little bit farther away, but there are people I, I met on a, a colorectal cancer cancer conference once this lady was talking about living in outport, Newfoundland and having to drive down to St. John's to get blood work five hours away. 

[00:22:33] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yep.

[00:22:34] Kathryn White: There's a whole thing. 

[00:22:35] Shannon Lee Simmons: Everything. Yeah. And we have a medical tax credit for it, but it's not, it's not going to completely offset that. Right. And so. How that, like if you have to travel more than 40 kilometers, and again, this is in Canada, so I can't speak for, for other places. Um, but I'm sure that there are some tax breaks where you could check in.

[00:22:54] Shannon Lee Simmons: That would be the tip is like, what are those tax breaks? And making sure that you're keeping all your receipts if there are some, and making sure that you're maximizing those programs if you can. Um, but you had, with most tax travel for, uh, medical stuff, um, you have to travel a certain distance away. So if you're.

[00:23:13] Shannon Lee Simmons: Going a certain distance away, then you might qualify. But every tax credit is sort of similar, where you might spend a thousand dollars and then you get $150 break. So you're still out eight 50. 

[00:23:25] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:23:25] Shannon Lee Simmons: Right. So even though there are tax benefits and there's things that can help you, it's, you're still going to be out of pocket by quite a bit, which is why, um, that happens, right?

[00:23:34] Shannon Lee Simmons: That that is a very normal thing. I talked to a. Um, someone who specializes in debt. Um, and I was saying, you know, what are the major reasons why somebody would do a consumer proposal or a bankruptcy one day? And this is not to scare anyone, it's just to be real about it. It's often a sudden job loss or, um, like a critical illness.

[00:23:56] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:56] Shannon Lee Simmons: And it's like, because the cost can be high. And if you don't have a partner who has an income to stabilize, if you don't have disability insurance, what if you're self-employed and you never got your own private? Um, policy because you started freelancing when you were in your twenties and you didn't really know and you don't have it, then what?

[00:24:17] Shannon Lee Simmons: And so that is a, that's a situation where there's, there's not that income replacement from an insurance policy that you were forced to pay into or that you chose to pay into or a partner or whatever. This is where we get selling of homes. If you own a place, this is where we get moving back in with family.

[00:24:35] Shannon Lee Simmons: This is where all of that happens because the reality of like keeping up a home and paying for rent or paying for a mortgage and paying for bills with a massive decrease to income is what? How much debt is too much debt or like, how much can I control there? So that's also part of that sort of decision making tree.

[00:24:54] Shannon Lee Simmons: Is like, how long can I stay until I have to sell my home? Move back home, do something like that. 

[00:25:01] Kathryn White: Yeah. Um, can we sort of switch the conversation a little bit to those young adults, like, so we know in the world of colorectal cancer, that young adult. Cancer incidences are on the rise. So in the conference we were talking, they were talking about, I am just starting university or college, or I'm just trying to pay off university or college, or I don't live outside of my mom and dad's place yet.

[00:25:25] Kathryn White: Or I wanna get married, or I just got married. I wanna have a family. Like what happens to the young adult who doesn't have RSPs behind them yet and isn't stable maybe in a career? 

[00:25:38] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah, I think the most, I think that this, the, the most hopeful thing is that they could stay with families. So overhead is quite low.

[00:25:46] Shannon Lee Simmons: I think that that is like the, what I've seen, um, that's been available that would be. A very difficult situation if it was somebody who didn't have family, uh, that they could move back home with and share costs with. Uh, because that, that typically has been what I've seen with, with, um, what young people are able to do.

[00:26:04] Shannon Lee Simmons: It would be a matter of just like a controlled burn, living extremely close to the line, um, going into debt likely and, and maybe applying for other government types of programs. Um, I think the bigger thing when we have someone who's a young adult. Is that the long term for that person is impacted in the same way it would be if you're older, but because you're just starting out.

[00:26:30] Shannon Lee Simmons: You didn't have those earning years where you might've been socking money away for a down payment or putting money aside here. So now the trajectory has shifted. Right? So, so maybe you can only work part-time or maybe you can work, but you missed a few years in those sort of climbing up and you're behind that way.

[00:26:49] Shannon Lee Simmons: You know, we don't know exact, like it can play out in many different ways. 

[00:26:52] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:53] Shannon Lee Simmons: But I don't want it to feel unhopeful. I'm just trying to name that it's. It's what compounds the crisis, right? The financial piece compounds the crisis in so many different ways, but that doesn't mean that it's just like, well, that's that.

[00:27:10] Shannon Lee Simmons: My life is, that's it. My trajectory is destroyed and I I'll never recover. 

[00:27:16] Kathryn White: Yeah, 

[00:27:16] Shannon Lee Simmons: it just might take longer and it just might take different, um, sort of patience and a lot of that. Like, as I was saying, like on the other side of survival is like, okay, I accept. Do you know what I mean? Like, I accept that I, I, I may not have the biggest RSP in the world and I will just do what I can.

[00:27:41] Shannon Lee Simmons: And I, um, and it doesn't, and I've seen many people who over time it's like it gets, it normalizes. But those first few years after, it can be like a bit of a catch up game for, for some people. 

[00:27:52] Kathryn White: Yeah. And I can see that because there's just, in the early years, there's so much money going out to get established in life.

[00:27:59] Kathryn White: Yes. 

[00:28:00] Shannon Lee Simmons: And time. Right. 

[00:28:01] Kathryn White: And time, yes. 

[00:28:02] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. Yeah. So it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a game of catch up, but I think that there's still, if you were to punch out 20 years from then, it would probably be fairly normalized and it would be secure. And I think that's the important thing to keep sort of the eye on the prize is that like this is a.

[00:28:21] Shannon Lee Simmons: A winter of a life, but that doesn't mean there's no spring, right? And that doesn't mean that like it's long and there's time. And even if this is a, a dark financial moment and decisions are being made where there's debt and there's big dis choices that have to be made, um, I, I think that making some of those choices is hard sometimes.

[00:28:44] Shannon Lee Simmons: And sometimes there's options. Like, for example, um. A client who wanted to move in with their, um, like their, like this wasn't a young person, but wanted to move in with family to save costs, rented out their house and then lived for free. So like that was a great solution. So they couldn't afford to keep the house.

[00:29:03] Shannon Lee Simmons: They were single. Um, and they had a mortgage and all this stuff, but they didn't wanna sell, so they just rented out their home, moved back home with their aging parents. So they were all who were actually caregivers for them. Mm-hmm. And while they were going through this, and then once they got back on their feet and they were able to work again and move back home, right?

[00:29:23] Shannon Lee Simmons: So maybe there's some options that you can do. It's not so black and white. 

[00:29:27] Kathryn White: That's a great answer and thought because um, yeah, there's, I know where we live, there is a need for housing rentals and Right. So I guess it comes down to getting creative as you're able to and looking for resources. I dunno if you could speak to like people.

[00:29:44] Kathryn White: Um, go to like GoFundMe, they go to like group crowd, um, what do you call it? Crowd fundraising. Crowdfunding, yeah. Crowdfunding, yeah. Options. Yes. Other options. 

[00:29:54] Shannon Lee Simmons: I think it's great. Yeah. No, I think crowdsourcing and crowdfunding is like one of the greatest gifts for a crisis that's been, that's happened in our, in our time.

[00:30:03] Shannon Lee Simmons: Uh, because it, what it can help with is that sort of giving hope in a, in a crisis that, like that short period of time. Is not so bleak while you're just stunned and, and, and trying to make those creative decisions. Because often what it does take is calm, creative decision making. 

[00:30:23] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:25] Shannon Lee Simmons: But if you are in panic mode, it's very hard to make, uh, uh, like a calm, rational choice, right?

[00:30:32] Shannon Lee Simmons: Mm-hmm. And so if there's an immediate influx of money, whether it's from insurance or crowdsourced, or crowdfunded. Then absolutely. That can sort of bridge that financial gap in those first few months when everything feels like overwhelming and new. 

[00:30:47] Kathryn White: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:47] Shannon Lee Simmons: To give that person a moment, a beat, to catch their breath and then like come over to the, to the like, okay, I have to do, I have to think about what's gonna happen here financially for myself.

[00:30:58] Shannon Lee Simmons: So if anyone listening here is supporting a person. With the diagnosis, like making that page for them and helping to share it. And like, that's, that has been a, a way that I have seen, um, some of my clients really benefit from that. Again, just for, mostly for the short run piece, but it can really help in a crisis.

[00:31:14] Kathryn White: Yeah, absolutely. Other things I'm thinking of as you're saying that is like, um, outsourcing, you're driving your kid to hockey, to someone else. It's gas, it's time, it's energy, um, circle of 

[00:31:24] Shannon Lee Simmons: care. Yep. 

[00:31:26] Kathryn White: Groceries delivered to the house. That's, you know, gas, that's time, that's energy. Allowing people to make meals for you.

[00:31:32] Kathryn White: That's, you know, groceries are expensive and if you're wanting to eat healthy, that can be very expensive. So, um, I often say like, have that. Point person who can help you to find those creative solutions to things that will save you time, money, and energy. 

[00:31:52] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah, I agree completely. I call it a circle of care and so often, so like a rotating cast too.

[00:31:58] Shannon Lee Simmons: So to make that more sustainable for, for other people to be able to help you. 'cause most people want to help, right? But they don't know how, or they can't, everyone's busy and tired and dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's like, how much can I help? So if you have somebody like let's say a neighborhood where it's like, okay, every Tuesday I take your kid to hockey.

[00:32:15] Shannon Lee Simmons: But then some other parent takes the kid to music and then some other parent like, like you share the load amongst your neighbors and community. And then same with meals. Like, okay, I do Wednesday nights. That's it. And then somebody else does, like you can share the burden and share the love. And I think people are scared to ask for that help.

[00:32:33] Shannon Lee Simmons: Because when everyone used to go to church and it was a very big thing, you'd you, you'd have these sort of communities and some people still have these, these communities, but a lot of people do not anymore. 

[00:32:43] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:32:43] Shannon Lee Simmons: And so we're afraid to ask. Ask for help. So we do so in a crowdsourcing way, which feels like I'm asking for help, but it's still fairly anonymous.

[00:32:51] Shannon Lee Simmons: I'm not really asking you in a group chat. Mm-hmm. It's not very personal and you can choose your own adventure. Um, but I do think if you've got children there is often, like within a school system, especially elementary kids or something like there are parents who, even if they don't know you that well will want to help and will go out of their way to support.

[00:33:09] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:33:09] Shannon Lee Simmons: And by spreading it out between various, by between more people. You'll get more yeses because it's not a huge commitment on go like to, to say. Yes. It's a, it's a easier yes. So again, that point person who's supporting you, that can also really help if they're able to orchestrate that because that can really help to reduce your spending as well.

[00:33:28] Kathryn White: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I have two thoughts. I have to remember what they are. One is about my book and one is about my school. That's what I wanna say because I forget things in my, in my book, living to Thrive. I talk about asking for help. I had a very hard time asking for help. That is not, was not one of my gifts.

[00:33:46] Kathryn White: Um, and I talk about it as being a superpower, like having someone that you can reach out to and, and building the confidence within yourself to say, actually I know that your kid and my kid are in grade four together. We don't really know each other, but they're on the same, they go to the same ballet class.

[00:34:02] Kathryn White: Like, can you please help me with my kid? The other piece about the school was that, um, shortly after I was diagnosed, they held a Relay for Life here in, in St. Thomas, and my peers wanted to put together a team. So we put together a team and my school had a fundraiser and the, the parent committee at the school put together a fundraiser where the principal shaved his head and actually one of the students cut all of like her long hair off, and, and the community came out for.

[00:34:30] Kathryn White: Me, this teacher that was no longer going to be able to work and to help we put the money to the Relay for Life team to give back to the Canadian Cancer Society. But it was the humility that had to come with accepting that other people wanted to help financially. 

[00:34:49] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah, and I think people do, and often when there's something within a community, people wanna help, but they don't know how.

[00:34:57] Shannon Lee Simmons: And so asking for help is actually so helpful and asking for specific types of help, then people can say yes because. You know, you might get a text message, like, let me know if you need anything. And then everyone's like, oh, okay. But like, like what? No one, that's a, that's the vague thing. You're probably not gonna get support.

[00:35:13] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:35:14] Shannon Lee Simmons: But you also, a lot of people are afraid to just jump in because they don't wanna do it if somebody else is doing it. They don't wanna step on toes, you know? So. So being brave, brave, it is a brave thing to do, uh, and being like, I need someone to do this. I need someone to do this. I need someone to do this.

[00:35:27] Shannon Lee Simmons: And it's like, people want to say yes to that. And the more specific you can be, the, the more help you're gonna get. 

[00:35:34] Kathryn White: Yeah. And it's just, it's easing that burden and Yes, and maybe subliminally it's, it's releasing that financial burden because 

[00:35:42] Shannon Lee Simmons: it is releasing a financial burden. Absolutely. 

[00:35:45] Kathryn White: Yeah. Um, can we talk about the other spectrum of people that are, the people that are older in cancer diagnosis and they've been working all their life and they're looking at retirement and they wanna, and, and now maybe they have to stop paying into their RSPs, that they're so close.

[00:36:04] Kathryn White: Like what does that look like? 

[00:36:05] Shannon Lee Simmons: It looks like a major adjustment of expectations because a lot of times we call those the power years in finance, which is like 50 to 60, where maybe you have. Um, teenagers, they're maybe they're almost outta the nest or they're becoming outta the nest. And you're supposed to be focusing on topping up TFSAs.

[00:36:26] Shannon Lee Simmons: You're supposed to be in your big earning years. You're supposed to be hammering your mortgage as low as you can possibly get it. Those are all the sort of pillars that you've been working toward for 30, 40 years. Um, and now all of a sudden it's like disrupted. So the good news is that if you're older and you've been doing those things for years, then you're probably in a, in a position where there's something to work with.

[00:36:46] Shannon Lee Simmons: You know what I mean? What it could look like is like, okay, then we're retiring with a mortgage and that's fine. Like, I will just do that. Or like, okay, I will, um, have to spend less money in retirement and that is just the way that it's gonna be, or it could look like once I recover from this, I have to work part-time for longer and that's okay too.

[00:37:10] Shannon Lee Simmons: It just, it's all about those levers that you have to pull. But it is 100%, no matter where somebody is in their financial journey, there is a disruption. Right. And it, and, and nobody gets, like in those short, in the short years, um, it's, it's tough. What I would say is unique to someone who's just about to retire is that.

[00:37:31] Shannon Lee Simmons: Because, you know, if you have somebody who's in their twenties who's diagnosed and then they get back into the workforce, and then if you, like we said earlier, you know, if you blow out 20 years, they're probably right on track with everyone else. Well, somebody who's in their sixties doesn't have that time.

[00:37:46] Shannon Lee Simmons: Mm-hmm. So it's an, it's an immediate shift in expectations. But at the same, by the same token, they're also starting, hopefully from a better place. Um, you know, like they've got, they've accumulated some, and this is one of those pieces of like, there's never a good time to get sick, right. There's no, there's no ideal.

[00:38:03] Kathryn White: No. 

[00:38:04] Shannon Lee Simmons: Unless you're like 102 and you ran out of retirement assets that it's like, you're 

[00:38:09] Kathryn White: just tired. 

[00:38:11] Shannon Lee Simmons: I'm tired and I'm, I'm ready. 

[00:38:13] Kathryn White: Yeah. It's, yeah. There's no time to, good time to get. But that's why, again, why I think this is an important conversation because people don't necessarily plan for life interruptions like this and, and the disruption that it can, um, cause and also the need to hit, reset and do things differently.

[00:38:40] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yes, I think it shakes a life to the core and. The rebuild on the other side will look drastically different than on the way in and perspective is everything. 

[00:38:51] Kathryn White: Yeah. I have another question for you that just came to my mind. Um, financial literacy in our younger generation, like I taught grade eight. I could teach you about fractions and percentages and you know how to do helpful fed mass.

[00:39:06] Kathryn White: Yeah, we want helpful math. So, um, for the people who are listening that maybe are of. A generation that doesn't like to talk about who they vote for or what, how much money they have or that those are not, I think it's a generational thing that a whole group of people didn't share that information, but um.

[00:39:27] Kathryn White: I think maybe some more transparency around those conversations in financial literacy, helping to prepare people so that it isn't needing to be the, the catastrophe and, and the slow burn can still happen, but in a more controlled way. 

[00:39:43] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. If I, um, if, if you know. Everybody could go back in time. The things that you would do financially that to prepare yourself might be, um, several things that we could do.

[00:39:56] Shannon Lee Simmons: So number one would be getting insurance while you're young, right? A private insurance where it doesn't matter about your employment. If you're self-employed, you're with a certain employer, it goes with you wherever you go. Yes. And it's covering your, all your working years, right? Like that's what you want.

[00:40:08] Shannon Lee Simmons: So a disability and a little and a smaller critical illness. You don't have to get too much critical illness insurance, but some is helpful. Um. That is like one of the best disaster proofing that you can do for yourself. And the younger you are, the healthier you likely are, the cheaper it'll be, right?

[00:40:24] Shannon Lee Simmons: Mm-hmm. Because you've gotta do blood tests and all that stuff. So I think that that is one of the best prevention things that young people could do in their twenties, um, to prevent a future disaster. And number two is, um, making sure that if you do have, if you've purchased a house, that you have the ability to pause it.

[00:40:41] Shannon Lee Simmons: Like you were talking about earlier, um, I think it's a major piece of the financial pies to be able to stop payments if there is a critical illness. So not only do you have money coming in, but you're also putting less money out. Those are two very important pieces of that as well, that, you know, if we could go back in time and think about that and then make sure that it's there for ourselves is very important.

[00:41:02] Shannon Lee Simmons: Um, and then number three is just, I think. The importance of an emergency account cannot be overstated. It is so important and it doesn't mean you have to have like $15,000 at any time. Like that's a really high goal for a lot of people. But even just some money that you could get through one or two, like a month or so of if you had no money coming in or if you were on disability or something like that, it could just help a little bit.

[00:41:29] Shannon Lee Simmons: I think having an emergency account is really important. Um, and. Sort of an abil, it gives you an ability to be flexible in the face of an emergency. Right. That you c you, you don't have to panic immediately into debt. Yeah. There's a, you have a runway until you run out. 

[00:41:46] Kathryn White: Yeah. Yeah. And again, not something that people necessarily think about and, and then all the other life stuff that happens like your car or your roof or windows or other events in life.

[00:42:00] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah, and I think where I can see this being tricky for younger people is if they're renting, you can't necessarily pause your rental payment, right? 

[00:42:08] Kathryn White: Yeah. 

[00:42:09] Shannon Lee Simmons: Uh, and so I do think that that's where it would be helpful for, you know, if I've seen, and this could be helpful, where it's like, I have, I'm not, I'm not able to work.

[00:42:18] Shannon Lee Simmons: This would be a crowdfunding situation, right? Like, can people help me for three months rent or something like that. And people would be like, yes. So maybe they don't need the child to ballet and this, that, and the other. And it's like, I just need to be able to keep my apartment for three months and then regroup.

[00:42:32] Shannon Lee Simmons: Um, and I'm saying three months because of just that micro planning and like getting there for three months and finding out what's possible. 

[00:42:38] Kathryn White: Yeah. So again, we're speaking, um, a about finances in regards to Canada and, and policies and things that we have in place in Canada. Um, but is there somewhere that someone, if they are just diagnosed, can go to, to find, I, I, I don't even know what the words are, like financial support.

[00:42:59] Kathryn White: Uh, platforms that are out there. 

[00:43:01] Shannon Lee Simmons: I think the Canadian Cancer Society, they have, they are, um, like we talked about this on cran, there are, you know, different resources that are listed there too. And also whatever, um, within Canada, whatever province you're in, if they have a, like, um, Ontario caregiver is, or b like.

[00:43:16] Shannon Lee Simmons: BC caregivers, um, you could go there and there might also be resources that you can check out and see because each province might have different tax credits that are available to you, and they might have different programs that are for you and federally if you qualify for any of like the EI or sickness benefit, this kind of thing federally in Canada.

[00:43:35] Shannon Lee Simmons: Um, just making sure that you've sort of talked to all levels of government as well to make sure you've like, maximized the amount of money that you are, that you're able to get. 

[00:43:44] Kathryn White: Perfect. That's, that's wonderful because I think, again, bringing it back to the chaos, like that's the last thing that people might be thinking of.

[00:43:51] Kathryn White: I would love to see, and maybe it's happening in other places. I, I was diagnosed 11 years ago, so it was a very different conversation when I was first diagnosed, but I would love to see. In my, my teacher brain sees a checklist of like, we talk about the doctor things, we talk about the psychosocial things, we talk about the finance things, we talk about the extra health things that, where are the benefits, where are the, the programs you can go to that it's all encompassed in the cancer story so that a person doesn't have to.

[00:44:23] Kathryn White: Sort of do their own research. 

[00:44:26] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. 

[00:44:26] Kathryn White: And, and you know, hunt and peck for things at a time when their brain is not going into the places where they want it to, where it's 3:00 AM Catherine is also running all the scenarios. 

[00:44:40] Shannon Lee Simmons: It would be really wonderful if there was like a one sort of hub where resources were held for people.

[00:44:46] Shannon Lee Simmons: So it's like, so you've got a diagnosis, here's your checklist. 

[00:44:49] Kathryn White: Yeah, 

[00:44:50] Shannon Lee Simmons: maybe you should create, 

[00:44:51] Kathryn White: maybe you should make, maybe I should make one. I could do that. Yes. Because I think there's just so much overwhelm and when I'm coaching people, one of the big conversations that we have is like, can we just stay off of the Google?

[00:45:04] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah. 

[00:45:05] Kathryn White: And the problem is, is that you go looking for, uh, cancer financial support, and the next thing you know, you are in the rabbit hole of the overwhelm and all the information that you actually don't wanna be reading. 

[00:45:16] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:45:17] Kathryn White: Yeah. So, um, I do have my very last question for you. I ask everybody, and um, it is the question that it's the foundation of, of my philosophy about living to thrive.

[00:45:32] Kathryn White: And so I wonder, Shannon, if you would share with us what does living to thrive mean to you? 

[00:45:39] Shannon Lee Simmons: Oof living to thrive, I think. Thriving to me is where you wake up in the morning and not every morning, 'cause we all have bad days. But generally speaking, you wake up in the morning without, and you're excited. You are like, you are excited and content about where you're going that day or that week, like there's something to look forward to.

[00:46:13] Shannon Lee Simmons: And that can be as simple as, I feel like I have enough and I'm content with what I have. That can be. I feel like I'm growing and I'm pushing to the next thing, and I'm excited about where I'm I'm headed. So like thriving doesn't mean that you're necessarily growing or staying. It just means that it's right for you and that you feel cozy and content in the sort of life that you've built for yourself, and that is what I think thriving is.

[00:46:42] Kathryn White: I love that so much. We just had a conversation about the difference between happy and content, my husband and I. Yes. And that content is a state of being. Happiness is an emotion, but content is a state of being, 

[00:46:55] Shannon Lee Simmons: and I think that's thriving. I think that's what we're all looking for, isn't it? 

[00:46:59] Kathryn White: It is beautiful.

[00:47:00] Kathryn White: Very, very beautifully wrapped up. Thank you. Um, if people wanted to find you, um, I did mention at the top of the podcast that you write in the Globe and Mail and that you are part of CBC. Yes. 

[00:47:13] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yep, 

[00:47:13] Kathryn White: yep. 

[00:47:13] Shannon Lee Simmons: Yes. Uh, new school of finance.com is sort of like where my business is and you can find us on social media and of course there's the books.

[00:47:21] Shannon Lee Simmons: Um, and I think the book called No Regret Decisions is the one that it, if you're in a. In the middle of a, a health journey right now. I think that that would be the one from a financial perspective on how to make those sort of financial decisions as you're and I call, it's called no regret decisions because you don't wanna make those decisions in a moment of panic and black and black and white thinking.

[00:47:42] Shannon Lee Simmons: Right. Um, that might be a helpful, a helpful friend right now. 

[00:47:45] Kathryn White: That sounds fantastic. In fact, I'm going to add that to, um, I have a resource center and a membership that I'm, I'm hosting and I, I have my favorite books, books that I think people should go to. So I think I'm gonna, I will add that to it because people just need.

[00:48:02] Kathryn White: Some anchor points that they can go to that feel calming and reassuring for them. So I will add that listeners to the membership space. If you're not in the membership, we can talk about that too. Um, but Shannon, I just, I really appreciate. Your perspective. Money talk can be very uncomfortable for people.

[00:48:21] Kathryn White: I shared that with you at the top of the podcast. Like it's not, it's not my wheelhouse. And to, so to have someone come to us on the podcast and be able to share your wisdom and your insight and maybe bring a little bit of calm into the frenzy and the chaos is, is very much appreciated. So thank you so much for being here.

[00:48:41] Shannon Lee Simmons: Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. Um, it is, honestly, I said this too is an honor because this is, you know, I, I think it's the most vulnerable moment in a person's life, potentially. Um, and so to have anything that can help in those moments is, is a great honor that I don't take lightly. 

[00:48:58] Kathryn White: Thank you so much.

[00:49:00] Shannon Lee Simmons: Thanks for having me. 

[00:49:01] Kathryn White: So listeners, if you found what you learned here today to be helpful, you can share this with other people that you know could benefit from this episode. Sharing helps me and helps Shannon to get the word out that people living with cancer can move from survivor to thriver and that there are tools and resources available to you.

[00:49:19] Kathryn White: And again, if you enjoyed this, you can go ahead. Subscribe to the podcast. Wherever you're listening, follow it on YouTube. I will put Shannon's information in the show notes for you. And if you would like to stay up to date on all things in my Cancer Thriver world, you can get your name on the Weekly, weekly in email list, and the link is in the show notes.

[00:49:39] Kathryn White: Thank you so much again, Shannon, for being here, and listeners will see you in the next episode. 

[00:49:44] Shannon Lee Simmons: Thank you so much for being here today. I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day, and may you live your life to your fullest. 

[00:49:50] Kathryn White: Follow your heart and thrive in all you do.