Hire Ground | Episode 15: Coaching, AI, and the Future of Education

In this episode, host Josh Czupryk sits down with Dacia Toll, co-founder and co-CEO of CourseMojo, to explore what it really takes to lead schools effectively in a post-COVID world. From rethinking how we hire and retain talent to leveraging technology for better student outcomes, Dacia shares hard-won insights from decades at the forefront of education leadership — and a fresh vision for what's possible. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey y'all, welcome back to another episode of Higher Ground. I'm Josh.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

I'm Christina.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Awesome. Well, I'm excited. We've got Daisha Toll, who is the co-founder of Course Mojo and also helped start Achievement First on today, both to talk about, of course, Course Mojo, but also just what does leadership look like? And of course, with our theme, what does leadership look like after COVID?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, Daisha's seen it all, right? She was there in the early days of the charter movement, um, achievement first, really kicking butt and getting amazing results for kids, scaling an organization that did that across the Northeast Corridor. And then with Course Mojo being on the ground in a different way, ensuring that excellence is happening in schools and districts around the country. So I'm excited to hear more of her thoughts. Um, what did you all focus on, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, I mean, we we focused on leadership, but it was so interesting when I got done with the conversation. Um, I have a good friend, Meg, who works at Course Mojo. And so I've like gotten to watch them grow as an organization. But I felt like I saw all the tenets of leadership that we talked about in what makes Course Mojo different and why it's become such a sustainable part of the AI infrastructure in K 12. We've had Michael Horn on, we've talked about like what does AI mean? And what I love about Course Mojo is like they have taken HQIM, high-quality instructional materials, and they've integrated it right directly into schools to make sure that kids and teachers have what they need to access Amplify or Fish Tank or HMH. So that way a teacher isn't scrambling to go through a 55-page lesson plan for tomorrow. They can really think through how can I put kids through a Socratic experience? And I think about just how tailored and refined Course Mojo is and how purposeful it is. And I don't always see that with every program. But then once I talked to Jay Show, I was like, oh, I've got it. Now I understand. And again, to your point about kicking butt with results with achievement first, like I just see that through my lithium leadership. And but really what we talked about was we've got to start thinking about if we're gonna keep people in the K-12 leadership game, if you will. We gotta hire for competency, which you and I have to beat the drama, but also on potential, and then we've got to coach people. And we talked, you know, with Joanne and we said, hey, you know, we've got to have boundaries, we've got to think about sustainability. But I think once we get there, the way you get to sustainability and the way you get to boundaries is getting people to be at their best. Because if you're gonna work eight hours, it needs to be a really good eight hours to get results for kids.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah. And how do we inspire and coach people? How do we make sure, you know, and I know you all talked about hiring, but when we're hiring them, how are we looking for the skills and experiences that are gonna matter and their success for the role? How are we gonna offer them so they have what they need to be effective? How are we gonna ensure that they're constantly growing, right? Both for our benefit, but for their own. And growing in the organization, sometimes that's outside, but how are we ensuring that all those things are happening at once, which is really tough, as you've said, to do in an eight or 10 hour workday?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Well, you know, and it's making me think that's what they do with partners at CourseMojo, right? Like they have really strong partner attention. But then I mean, Daisha over the summer shared from their state test results from their partner districts. I mean, they were statistically significant compared to all of the surrounding partners, and not partners, but surrounding districts, um, because they have been so thoughtful about making sure that the onboarding process and the support process and the coaching process is there. And so far folks that are not necessarily in charter schools, but maybe in the ed tech space or the curriculum space, I hope they can take from this too, like the tenets of good coaching and good leadership span the entire K-12 sector. It's not just in schools.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

And I think increasingly I'm talking, and if you are, but talking to ed tech firms and firms that's leveraging AI and education who really are valuing that educator perspective and that coach and mentoring perspective. And although I know people focus it's about sales and it's about growth and it is, but they also need people inside that understand what schools are like inside. And you and I both know there's organ rejection from education folks if someone's coming trying to sell them or get them to adopt a product and they clearly haven't stepped foot in a classroom or worked with kids, right? So I think there's actually a neat opportunity too for those folks listening who are interested, because I get a lot of people who are interested potentially in that space. If you're an educator, what you can really offer is that on-the-ground perspective, that knowledge, that skill that is going to be needed when folks are going and working with principals and teachers or rolling out a new solution classrooms. And also being comfortable pushing back sometimes, not that you wanna, you obviously there's profit and there are other considerations of scale that need to be fulfilled for a company to be successful. But there's also always a place for someone with that real expertise to say, yeah, but this actually isn't gonna work. Like I know you want to do this thing, but it's not really gonna work for people. And so helping them figure out what will work given your experience, that's a really valuable role that you can play.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Well, I'm excited to jump in. And so we'll have a conversation with Daisha and get to learn from her just about her perspective over the last couple of decades in terms of what works in leadership.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Thanks so much, Josh. I'm excited to hear your conversation.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Awesome. We'll talk to y'all next time. Bye. Hey, y'all. Welcome to the second part of today's pod where I am incredibly excited to invite and have Daisha Toll on, who is a co-founder, one of the founders and co-CEOs of Course Mojo. And I'm gonna let her give you um the 30-second version of what they do. And before that, was uh one of the founders and led Achievement First for over two decades, and so just has a crystal clear vision in terms of the timeline of talent in the K-12 sector. So welcome to today's pod, Deisha.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Very happy to be here, Josh.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Awesome. Could you start with people who may not be familiar with Course Mojo and just give us the 30-second version of what you all do and what your goals are?

SPEAKER_02 5:49

We are the only curriculum aligned, and that really matters. We start with high-quality instructional materials, reading-powered reading tool that supports both students and teachers. So, for students, what that looks like, kids often say it best, is it's like the handout is talking to me. So we turn something that's static into something that's dynamic and interactive with increased engagement, increased feedback, the things we know lead to increased achievements. First big goal is to increase student ELA achievement, and we've seen a lot of gains, which is exciting. And then the second thing we're trying to do, our second North Star goal is to improve teacher retention, which I know is something we both care near and dear of our about. And we do that by helping teachers not just save time, but helping them be more effective. And so it's like a little teaching assistant that helps you do the things you're already trying to do. So you should, when kids are working, you're running around the classroom trying to figure out what they know and don't know. Mojo has a live dashboard that helps you do that, helps you know which kids need your help and what they need your help with. You push a button, and Mojo tells you the two most common misconceptions in your class right now. It helps you celebrate student work, and we're constantly building more tools based on teacher feedback.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

So, for people who are following along this season, really, we spent those first five episodes uh what we would say defining the problem that teacher retention, school leader retention, and system leader retention after COVID is abysmal. And so we are trying to also now, in the second part of the season, highlight things that we have seen that research says is working. So that way leaders are aware of how they can help solidify an undergird capacity. All right, so knowing the impact that course mojo has, there was research that I remember you sharing this fall about the impacts that you all had from state testing last year. I want you to wear your course mojo hat. And I also want to ask you to have your um former charter system leader hat on. But for all of the nonprofit and the system leaders, as they think about hiring other cabinet level members or school leaders for 2026-27, what would you say are the three things post-COVID they should be thinking about?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

For hiring or for retaining talent?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

I think both.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Okay. Um well, I think for hiring, the key, and probably a number of us, at least back in the day, we read Jeff Smart's book, Who, you know, and how do how do we get the talent our kids and teachers deserve at every level of leadership. And so the key is to be clear on what's most important for the roles. And Smart recommends a scorecard based on that, and to be as sort of measurable as you can about the goals to force a level of precision. And I would say what we found at AF, though, is that you can't unfortunately just hire people who have all the competencies you ideally want. And so part of what you're trying to assess, which is even harder, is potential. And then to have just an extraordinary talent development investment strategy where both through PD and even more importantly, lots of on-site coaching, you can grow that. And so we ended up looking, we certainly had scorecards, we certainly assessed folks, but over time they became more and more about mindsets and less and less about the skill sets that people walk through the door. Now, that's different if you're hiring a chief financial officer who you need to walk in with certain knowledge and skills than if you're high entry-level teachers. And so we were looking for people who were truly had a gross mindset and really cared a lot, were very receptive to feedback and acted on feedback, were unambiguously committed to kids, like with a love in their heart and the kind of deep beliefs. And then we could get into how to assess for all of those things, but tell me a story about this and then tell me something else you did, and then tell me something else you did. Like most people have one good story. It's when you're digging for the third and fourth about how they how they got great feedback, how they faced challenges, how they went above and beyond for kids. So that would be sort of clarity of both competencies that you're looking for and mindsets that you're looking for, and then how to assess for that. I would say on the retention side, and these two, of course, are intimately related. Like the better you do getting people in the job that are the right fit, the more likely they are to stay. But I think over time, people stay in jobs if they like or ideally love their job and if it fits with the other things outside of their job that they really care about. I don't know that we can have it all, but in our lives, we should be able to have the handful of things that are most important to us, including a job that we find really rewarding where we get to work with people who are amazing and have a sense of purpose that just has to work alongside the family that we love.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

So I'm I'm gonna throw you a slight curveball off script. Um, because I was reading an article. I used to work at the University of Memphis. I was in our K-12 system, but it's still on a higher education campus, right? So the culture was higher ed, if I'm being honest. And there was a higher ed chronicle article about the difference between burnout and demoralization. And it was saying that there seems to be this misdiagnosis in the higher ed world that everyone's burning out. But what they're finding qualitatively is it's actually demoralization, exactly to what you said, where it's the right person at the right institution, but maybe the wrong fit. And so they're like, I'm not in the right role, right? And I'm gonna go somewhere where I can find the right role. And I'm curious this idea of burnout, because that's all we hear. School leaders are burning out, systems leaders are burning out. And until yesterday, I hadn't grappled with burnout versus demoralization. I'm curious if you have any thoughts there.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

I mean, where to draw that technical line, I'm not sure, but I think what we did a bunch of work on sustainability at Achievement First, and it was it was much more than just work hours. Like certainly you reach a point in terms of number of hours where over a sustained period of time where you can just actually burn out. But it has even burnout, it just has a lot more to do with like what gives you energy and what depletes you of energy. And um what what I would say, like back to your three things, which I think I didn't answer crisply enough on the retention side, part of the single biggest lever we had at Achievement First is the principals, and therefore everybody at every level had one-on-one conversations with folks about their goals, their priorities, what's important to them in life today, and where they see themselves headed. And having that be, you know, not just one-time conversation, but an ongoing like, I know you, I know what's important to you, I care about that, and I want to help you get where you're trying to go. And sometimes, Josh, like I used to, when I like earlier on in my leadership, I used to try to hang on to these talented people for just frankly too tightly. And I just got so much better through mentoring and coaching myself and otherwise at saying, like, we're gonna travel this journey together, hopefully for as long as possible. And then you're gonna go where you want to go, and the organization's gonna go where it needs to go. And if those don't line up anymore, I worked hard to help them line up, but if they don't, we're gonna have a thoughtful plan to have you transition and I'm gonna help you go on to your next thing. And I'm very proud of the people who left achievement first to do amazing things. And that actually, and that then becomes part of the value proposition of why people want to come work for you because they know that you're actually not, you absolutely are about the organization's mission, but you also you can simultaneously be about caring for the people who want for you. But you figure that out on an individual basis. Like there's some things that are broadly true, but we're also wonderfully different and we're different at different points in our life in terms of what we want. And so you just have to get stayed tuned into that. So that'd be one of number one. Number two, which maybe should be number one, is I think people stay mostly in jobs that they feel like they're doing really well. And so help people be effective at their jobs. And the best way to do that is coaching and feedback. And so I I think the vast majority of institutions, particularly as you get to senior roles, most have figured out how to do high-quality teacher coaching and development, I hope. And then how do you really invest in principals, prepare them first for this hell of a job, and then provide ongoing coaching and support? And but that I think starts to fade as you get into the higher levels sometimes in organizations. And number one is help them win at things that are meaningful to them and to the organization and you know, shine a bright spotlight on those early wins and those ongoing wins because I think people stay in roles that where they get to do that, especially for kids. And then the third thing I would say, and this has been part of the mindset, you know, COVID was so it was tough on so many levels. And then the year we came back was actually harder. I think we all underestimated how much the disruption and routine, the trauma and when students and teachers returned, and then what it took from senior leaders to kind of hold the container and the space where they could get back to normal on some fronts and yet honor what's just changed. So anyway, it was hard. And I think it sent people into a sort of survival mindset of like, oh, it's hard. How do we just kind of get through, get by? That's just, I don't think we can thrive in that in that atmosphere for very long. Um, and so how do leaders move people to a space of continuous improvement, pursuit of excellence, innovation? And it's been exciting, actually, over the last few years to see that shift take place. I feel like, and it's interesting, we work across a number of different school systems. It's happening more in some places than others, and it has a lot to do with the leader vision about where are we today and where are we headed and what's your role in it?

SPEAKER_00 15:38

So I'm gonna recap through people. Leaders need to have a vision, humanity, right fit, right time for the right role for people, and then help them win. Is that a fair summary?

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yeah, and I think it maybe the one thing I would just emphasize is like genuinely caring, caring and honoring are what individual people need and want today and in the future, and just trying to stay in that conversation with them about what's important and and trying to figure out if there's a really good match and being creative about that, but not sort of holding too tight.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Well, I think that's a great place to end. And so I just want to say again, thank you for the work in Achievement First. Thank you for the work at Course Mojo. I think it's really um taking the cognitive load off of teachers so where they can really shine and do the things that they love and not chase inputs, but rather monitor outputs. And so just really love the work that y'all are doing. And thank you again for taking the time.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Happy to be with you, Josh. Thanks. Awesome.