Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, May 3, 2026 | John 14:1-14 | with Donovan Drake, Sarah Bird Kneff, Ashley Higgins, Stephanie Boaz & Will Wellman

Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, May 3, 2026 | John 14:1-14 | with Donovan Drake, Sarah Bird Kneff, Ashley Higgins, Stephanie Boaz & Will Wellman

John 14:1-14

Christ the way, truth, life 

14:1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.

14:2In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also.

14:4And you know the way to the place where I am going."

14:5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"

14:6Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

14:7If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."

14:8Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied."

14:9Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

14:10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

14:11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but if you do not, then believe because of the works themselves.

14:12Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father.

14:13I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14:14If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:04

Well, welcome to another Talking the Text. I'm Donovan.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

I'm Stephanie.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

I'm Ashley. I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_06 0:09

And I'm Will. And this Sunday is Senior Sunday. So there are lots of sermons. And uh I think most of it is lectionary. Is that correct? And uh rather than choose all the texts, we're gonna choose just one of the texts. John 14, verses 1 through 14. Correct?

SPEAKER_05 0:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 0:32

All right. And we've all rushed in here, and uh we are so well prepared that we're gonna go for it. But let's have a word of prayer. Let's pray. Holy God, we give you thanks and we give you praise for a day that you have made. We give you thanks and praise for this word, and we pray that as we read it and hear it and talk about it, that your spirit be in it and through it all. In Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 0:58

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 0:59

All right, John 14, one through fourteen. Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. In my father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may also be. And you know the place, you know the way that I am you know the way to the place where I am going. And Thomas said to him, Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way? Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied. Jesus said to him, Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, but if you do not, then believe because of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do, and in fact will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it. The word of the Lord. Thank you. A lot there.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

First shout out to Thomas for being so bold as to say what probably the other disciples were thinking. Uh, Jesus, we don't know where you're going.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

It's like when you're in a group and you're afraid to ask a question, it's like, just ask it. Almost everyone else in the room is probably thinking the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

For Jesus to say, you know the place I'm going.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

No, we don't.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

How could we know?

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Yeah. So kudos to courageous Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, they probably liked having him around.

SPEAKER_06 3:30

He's a realist. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Do we give kudos to Philip too? I I feel like I feel like yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Because this is an important place where Jesus is explaining further about his identity, more specifically. So thank you, Philip, for bringing it up.

SPEAKER_06 3:59

Alright, I want to bring this up.

SPEAKER_05 4:00

All right.

SPEAKER_06 4:02

Chapter 11 of John, the death of Lazarus. In verse 12, the disciples said to him, Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be all right. And Jesus, however, had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was referring merely to sleep. And Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus is dead. For your sake, I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him. And Thomas, who is called the twin, said to his fellow disciples, Let us also go that we may die with him. So what is he saying there? Is that hey, let's yeah, that's a bright idea. Let's that's a beautiful. Why don't we go there and we'll die with him? Or is he saying I mean, is he being sarcastic?

SPEAKER_04 5:05

That's almost how I read it.

SPEAKER_06 5:07

That's how I read it.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Sarcastic.

SPEAKER_06 5:09

Yeah. Because that would be Thomas, right? Unless I put my hands in it. So when he says, Lord, we do not know where you're going. That to me again, I I think the rooms and all that, I think that's the tomb. I'm convinced of that by that.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Say more? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:39

That there's this the shuffling of the tombs. So Lazarus comes out of the tomb so that Jesus Jesus weeps because he's being called into the tomb. Uh come and see, Jesus wept. And then do not let your hearts be troubled. In my father's house, there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you I go to prepare a place for you. And I I just wonder if that's tombs.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Tombs.

SPEAKER_06 6:10

That in order to get to resurrection, you gotta die.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

You gotta die.

SPEAKER_06 6:14

And that's the place he's going. I don't know. It's worth a worth a dissertation.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Will doesn't agree. What do you think? I I I don't know. I've never thought about that.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Um but doesn't that seem to make the father's place a tomb? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_06 6:37

Or father's house. That's why I would not agree with you. In my father's house, there are many dwelling places.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

And it's like I we always talk about John as like, oh, John's obsessed with Christ's divinity and all that. But I think like John's one of the most human because it shows this side of Christ that's contemplative and reflective and really wrestling with all these things. And like in Mark and Matthew, it's just like, well, I got I gotta get you know the crap beat out of me and killed. But here you see like the angst around it spread out through multiple chapters, and also just like the intimacy of his relationship with the disciples and the struggling over them not wanting him to leave, and and also that kind of like human side of him not wanting to leave. So I I I don't all that to say I I don't I don't necessarily agree with the tomb reading, but I do think there's like um this kind of preoccupation with death from a number of angles.

SPEAKER_06 7:57

And how do we square uh you know I I I think of John's gospel as blurring time that past, present, and future are all apart, and that because of that um Jesus is in all, above all, through all. So what is this going to a different place? I I mean, what is that about? What does going to a different place, a house, mean then? What is the father's house? I j I can't square that with the other part of what I know about what I think about John anyway. But I know that you know, Jesus gives the spirit, and I'm not gonna be with you, all that kind of stuff. And then sorry, one more thing. Then, you know, this uh very in verse 12, very truly I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do works that I do, in fact, will do greater works than these. What does that mean? And does that go to that, you know, there's not enough books in the world to contain all the things that Jesus did.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

Like Jesus fed 5,000. We fed 10,000 this weekend at FaithWorks.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

There you go. So you're better than Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

I mean, John said it, not me. Uh and it's not me who's better, it's just all of us together collectively.

SPEAKER_05 9:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

No, I I mean I think with the power through the power of the Holy Spirit, right? Right. We'll do greater works than these. I just always look at the con I mean, context, right? So this is coming right after Jesus foretells Peter's denial. Uh there's still more about that. Like, where are you going? Where I'm going, you cannot follow. You will follow. Like it's that same, like Jesus is going somewhere, and he says, You cannot follow me. I will lay and Peter says, I will lay my life down for you. And that's when Jesus says, Before the cock crows, you will have denied me three times. And then immediately that's right into 14. Do not let your hearts be troubled. So he's just foretold that Peter is gonna deny him, and then he goes back and says, But don't worry, like don't let your hearts be troubled. That feels I don't know, like incongruent.

SPEAKER_06 10:44

Do not let your hearts be troubled. I'm gonna prepare a tomb for you.

SPEAKER_05 10:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

If the tomb thing is right, then I've preached a lot of really bad funeral sermons, because all my funeral sermons are like dwelling places. It's the father's house, the many mansions. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:00

That's what I've I've done the same. But I don't underst I don't understand why he would talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Well, Jesus isn't going to do just one thing. He's going to die in a very public way that is going to change people's minds. He's going to full-on die and go into the tomb, and then he is going to be raised, and then he's going to appear. I mean, he has so many things that he is about to be doing. And I do think that do not let your hearts be troubled. I mean, oftentimes that only means something when you're already really troubled. That's right. And it doesn't snap you out of it. It's just somebody saying, There's more.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

There's something more beyond this. And I think that more, maybe it, maybe it ends, maybe it doesn't even end in with the father where there's space for everyone. Maybe that's not even the end because there's something beyond that that is the fullness of the kingdom here as well. Or at least at every individual funeral that we do. It's not the end.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

The I I think that's a good point too, because like the uh John's original audience that's hearing this uh are like the earliest Christians and they're essentially being kicked out of the synagogues. And like that would be pretty disruptive, um, this tradition that you come out of, uh, and then to be like completely cut off from it. And it's like, where do you go? What's next? All those kind of questions. Uh and so uh I think this speaks to us like in the present and also like into the future. And so uh like the I I I quote this verse all the time. It's my favorite verse of scripture, but it's from the next chapter. Um it's from John 16, 33. It's Christ still speaking to the disciples. I have said this to you so that in me you may have peace. In the world you face persecution, but take courage, I have conquered the world. If you really dig into it, it it doesn't make sense. In the world you face persecution, but don't worry, I've conquered the world. Why will why would we be persecuted? So I I think it speaks to that language of already, not yet. The the work that Christ is accomplishing through through death and resurrection uh will will literally change all things, and we get a foretaste of that in the here and now, but not a full taste of it. And so, you know, um that that do not let your hearts be troubled is speaking to that reality in a way that's not full, um, but like almost alluding to it.

SPEAKER_06 14:20

Yeah, I think it's full.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

You think it's full? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 14:24

All right. Like everything's okay? Yeah, I mean I I think in in this John's gospel, I would say uh in a world full of persecution, I've conquered. And and you know, don't let your hearts be troubled.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

I mean they're still gonna be persecuted, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah, but that's but that's not moments then. It could be. How? If that's I mean, like, I I I think this is a really good conversation because like we exist in a world of suffering and of death and of war and violence and just senseless violence, uh, and yet we believe in a savior that um you know that that redeems, renews, and restores all things ultimately. But but yeah, I don't think that's John though. I don't think the ultimately. I I think it's already. But not in the fullness. You think it's in the fullness? In John, I do. Ah man.

SPEAKER_06 15:27

Okay. We'll spend quality time with each other and you'll you'll come to my side.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

You're trying you're trying to throw out all these uh these little fandangled biblical interpretations.

SPEAKER_05 15:42

Oh, but I love it.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

It deserved a new word. But no, no, no, no. You think John is saying like what Christ accomplishes um happens in its fullness in time, in history.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

According to John's.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Then what are we waiting for? Nothing.

SPEAKER_06 16:01

In John's Gospel, nothing. But in But in other Gospels, yes. With already the not yet, you know, all that. But I think in John's community, hey, this is it.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

This is the fullness of the kingdom. This is the full thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Even though you're being persecuted, yeah. Then what's the point of the sending of the spirit?

SPEAKER_06 16:29

What do you mean? I mean it's fine, right? So you receive the spirit, you live in the spirit, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

But like why would Christ send the paraclete if everything's already done? To help us in our work? Our suffering work.

SPEAKER_05 16:46

I don't buy this.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

To give us direction, yeah. But why would you need a comforter if everything was already complete?

SPEAKER_06 16:56

Uh to to to remind you that I this is this is it. I'm not buying it.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I'm sorry. I mean, I think I I I think that um I mean like the language, right? The realized eschatology, but I don't think that ru like I don't think it's full.

SPEAKER_06 17:24

Yeah, well, we'd have to go to John Gospel 2, which there isn't one. I think it's just I think this is it.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

So okay, so let's make sure I'm following you. So according to John's Gospel, just John's Gospel, the work of God is complete in Christ. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

In Christ's resurrection.

SPEAKER_06 17:50

Christ's death and resurrection. Although, you know. This is before that. But John is so that Jesus in John's gospel is so sure.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

And John's already been.

SPEAKER_06 17:59

I think he can say, I have, and because future and past and present are all blurred, I've already done this.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I I think that's fair. If you're gonna say the times, but but in the context of history, I wouldn't say it is. In the fullness of God's time, it is.

SPEAKER_06 18:16

No, I g, you know, I agree that there's a little bit of suffering, all this, the already not yet, yeah, okay. But I do kind of like a different concept of time and the presence. I mean, to me it feels very Eastern. I mean, very, you know, we're one in space and time and all that kind of thing. And I think that's John's gospel. I just don't think it's linear at all.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

That is very I agree with that. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yeah, I mean, I I yeah, I just think like I think John is pointing to that reality, but that we can't fully participate in that reality in the here and now. And so you have a contrast between God's time and our time.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Which Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:08

But God keeps inviting us into God's time.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Right, but I don't think we can experience the fullness of that time in the here and now.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

In the brokenness of our world right now.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

But somebody who has that kind of faith is somebody I want to be close to. Somebody who absolutely believes Donovan. I'm glad to have you here.

SPEAKER_06 19:36

I'm just arguing for it, that's all.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

No, but but somebody that has that kind of faith, where they're just so certain that God's work is complete and being completed.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

But do you really want to be with someone like that? Seems like the kind of person that would say God needed another angel or all things work together for God's good. Like the instrumentalization of suffering?

SPEAKER_03 20:04

No, because those kinds of things come out of people who are uncomfortable. Those kinds of phrases come out of people who are uncomfortable who have created a formula that makes them feel better. This is somebody who believes so deeply in the power of Christ that they're living in the reality of it being done, even in this messed up world. And I am very excited about this.

SPEAKER_06 20:30

I like it. I mean, I for me, John makes sense in the day and age in which we live. If if that construct of time is true, then hope is lived out and it's not waited for.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yeah, I mean, I think that's what I was the 1633 is pointing towards. But I just don't think like we can look around us and say this is how God wants things. I can I can say in the same sentence that I believe that the work in Christ and the time of God has been accomplished, but in the context of history, there's brokenness all around us, and I do not think this is how God wants things. Right.

SPEAKER_06 21:18

And I and I I would agree with that, but I would also say I think that to me it's like John's community is suddenly it's an insulated community community. I mean, it's it's a community that's set apart.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

But not by their choice, they're being forced out of the synagogues.

SPEAKER_06 21:34

Yeah, or being persecuted or whatever. So it's you know, it's a scene community or whatever this is that you know, we are gonna love each other just as Christ is loved, you know, we're gonna do all that kind of stuff. We're gonna be in community set apart from each other. Um and so I that's why I think it's like you know, it's not it's not there to solve the world, it's there maybe to invite people into this thing, um this community. But it's you know and there are problems with that, right? I mean that's you know and so read other scripture. There's more gospels. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

And there's more. Yeah. Um but we do talk about salvation as a dumb thing. You know, once once you I mean we come to worship every week and we have the prayer of confession every week. And it's not because we're so stained by sin that if we don't do that, we're going straight to hell. It's because we believe in the power of God's forgiveness that has come to us through this pathway, which is Christ dying and being raised from the dead and showing us so much more about who the Father is. And so when we come together we confess because we want to participate in that so much more. We want to be as aware of God's power in us over and against our own power. And that is a done thing. That's that's something that is very powerful. So we can think about that as a done thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah I mean I wouldn't disagree with any of this but like you know it's like Paul says like I do the things I don't want to do and I keep doing them. Yeah and like we look all around us and see not just like moral brokenness but like you know like cosmic brokenness like just senseless violence and hurt.

SPEAKER_06 23:42

So when Mary gives her Magnificat you'd go, what are you talking about? Look around Mary.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

You know the poor are poor the rich are still but but but Mary's talking about the inbreaking of God's kingdom not that the kingdom has been completed. It has happened. Yeah the inbreaking of God's kingdom it has already happened it's a perfect air is perfect. Oh my gosh it's oh the time enjoy it's happened and it keeps happening Mary yes but I don't I I mean I think we're getting into what's called logo mocking now.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

What is that?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Say it again I'm just arguing for argument's sake.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

No that's not what I want to prove you wrong well I don't know what that side of the table's doing over here I'm like really finding myself so balanced at like floating in the already and not yet in in a way that doesn't feel as uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah I mean I agree with the already yeah I just I like I I just think it's like a uh it it it it you just like have to deal with the suffering we see around us. Yes and part of like the sending of the spirit part of the end of this text which is saying like you will do greater things is my work is not complete I will work through you I will work through the church after my resurrection and so like while we can talk about it being complete in the fullness of time uh you know the kingdom of God is still unfolding within the realm of history.

SPEAKER_06 25:18

Right. I and truly I believe that is uh a perfect and wonderful theology I just don't I question whether it's John's I I understand that yeah I I I want I want to I mean we've we've spent a lot of time on Donovan's little pet project with him he's been bringing up tombs now almost I'm all into tombs.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Well I I want to go to the the last couple verses because I think this is such a beautiful summation of the blending of of prayer and action and uh very truly I tell you the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and in fact will do greater works than these because I'm going to the Father I will do whatever you ask in my name so that the Father may be glorified in the Son if in my name you ask me for anything I will do it. And I just think that's such a beautiful statement of this like cycle of of of prayer and living out our faith.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Yeah and the um just like the assurity um that Christ listens um and and also walks alongside us uh to accomplish these things but this is one of those tasks just in my experience with like youth ministry trying to bring it down a level not that youth ministry is down a level what are you saying here but the ask anything I will do it you know see thing you apply knock on the door like and there are kids who have prayed and prayed and prayed for things and it's not happening like so is that an oversimplification of that verse or when you when you pluck that verse out of here how do you not use it like or weaponize it do you know what I mean? Yeah of course yeah can you fix that all of our 15 year old listeners I don't think adults and adults right oh yeah I mean I I just yeah like I I pray for it I pray for it I think it's your will and so it doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Very the uh we'll also do the works that I do and where is the uh down thirteen yeah do whatever you ask of my name is that what you're asking well I was thinking that you know the work the great work the great commandment is to love one another just as I loved you you also must love one another so whatever falls into that right giving uh yeah it it it it it's like prayer is not transactional prayer is shaping us and pulling us into something and so maybe that second part I will do whatever you ask in my name so that the Father may be glorified in the Son maybe that is sometimes we ask for things that aren't what is really best for us. We may really think it's God's will but it may not be.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

But I w like I think that it we we need to even go further back. It's like why is prayer asking for something? Like I know that's what he's saying like if you ask for anything in my name but like isn't prayer more than just an asking so much more yeah and so like I think we and I'm not saying you anyone at this table I'm just saying like I think we we turn it into like um well I asked for X, Y, or Z and it didn't happen. And I think like the prayer especially in the context of John and this like these chapters of like the vine and being me being in the Father and you being in the Father and then like the priestly prayer that they can be in us and all that stuff is like it it it's prayer is trying to unite your will to to God.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

Yes and I like I think that's just the because for a lot the longest time I would say isn't it Lewis C.S Lewis who's like prayer doesn't prayer changes who you are right like if you're aligning yourself with the will of the creator you're changed circumstances may not be changed. However also as believers like you know we have a list of prayer requests like I'm gonna be praying for you I'm gonna be praying for healing I'm gonna be praying for recovery I'm gonna be praying so do we not believe in the quote unquote power of prayer in that sense? Not that it's transactional but that it's like that it doesn't just change me and I'm not just changed into more like God's image because I've aligned myself with him but because it's I I asking is invited as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

I I think if we if we turn prayer into something there's a like something that like you're just getting something out of it there's there's a lot of reason not to pray. Like there are so many people that have been sick and not been healed by prayer. And so like I I I I pray all the time for people that are sick and I will continue to and I do to this day but like I've had a chronic kidney disease for 16 years and prayer has not done squat for me in that kind of transactional way. And so like if we just approach prayer as like um well I'm not feeling good or something tragic has happened to me and now I'm gonna come to God and ask for something I think we're like missing the point. And I think this is talking about something much larger than like our individual needs. And I I I don't want to sound dismissive because like I I have people right now that I'm praying for that are going through very very traumatic or you know very like bad bad illnesses but I I just like I don't think that's what prayer is ultimately about.

SPEAKER_06 31:20

What i what if it's the what if it goes back to the commandment love one another that that we pray to be to understand God's love in these situations more and more and that my actions reflect something of washing the feet or or sacrificing or whatever that is so that the more that I do that the more that I understand the love and the depth of suffering and you know all those things.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I I I the there's there's there's a sense of like Christ is so in the Father there is no separation and that's what prayer is about it's about literally growing so deep in your faith and love of God that you are participating fully in God. That's what the comforter comes for and like there's a Saint Ignatius the founder of the Jesuits he has his his famous spiritual exercises which is like all the Jesuits go through and lots of lay people have done too but it's like a 30 day program of deep deep intensive prayer and a lot of silence and reflection but at the very beginning there's the foundation and principle which is like I will seek to love God no matter health or wealth or all these other things and I I actually did the spiritual exercises with a Jesuit and I I like took weeks I I did the annotation 19 which is for folks that can't do it in 30 days um but the but I I kept wrestling with that because I was like well I want to be healthy because at that point in time I was like at the very beginning of my illness and I was like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do this and he's like you just keep reading it and uh it was it was this like very very frustrating point in my life but I realized what he was he was pushing toward and what Ignatius is getting at is that if we if we put our faith uh as like it's dependent on these things like that I'm healthy or that I I'm I'm like comfortable financially or whatever like our relationship with God is contingent and we need to have a a relationship with God that's not contingent on anything. And I think that's what Christ is pulling us into.

SPEAKER_06 33:47

Right but doesn't that didn't you just okay my earliest argument? Here we go again. Because that's exactly what I'm arguing in John's gospel that it's not it's not this this is it. This is this is it this is all we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah I I don't agree with you on that I do want to say though I I think um it is helpful not to bring to paint such a broad brushstroke to to say though I actually think that prayer for God to do something in tragedy or in a really hard situation is pro has probably been the foot in the door for lots of people have seen those prayers answered. Yes so just to say like but in our humanness I think Jesus still sees us and chooses and that we can wrestle with that but but I think probably there are lots of people who would say like I was skeptical I was a doubter XY or Z brought me to my knees and in praying for X Y or Z I came to know God right like that I so I I'm I'm totally agree with you that like the fullness of prayer is something very different.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

And I think that the radicalness of the way that God loves us is that God is willing to work with our humanness and in a hundred percent you know yeah that's grace right yeah and I think to Sarah's point I mean she really was bringing this up in relationship to youth that you know we do tell our young people to praise God in their prayers and to ask and that that is at least a starting place for them to grow further.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

And and and I I want to be clear I'm not trying to say that like when I pray I'm I'm like becoming Christlike. I think prayer is a means of us becoming Christlike. And so praying for those around us regardless if healing comes or not is is is deeply deeply part of kingdom work. Exactly yeah yeah yeah because it's binding us to each other just as Christ binds himself to us in the flesh. Yeah like it's it's an incarnational uh work.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

Yeah powerful yeah I think this would be a really good Sunday school series. I thought you were gonna say place to stop well that's kind of my segue to stop.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah this would let's pick this up in Sunday school or in a Bible study in the fall but like that kind of like a series or something I mean not that you're gonna encapsulate it all but this just requires a lot more conversation about yeah a lot going on yeah um last one more thing sorry at uh verse six Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to me to the Father except through me. If you know me you will know my father also from now on you do know him and have seen him I think the beauty of that really gets lost in some faith communities that make that about heaven and hell so just or inclusion and exclusion yeah so just to name like I I um I mean I think it just feels so true like how can you know the fullness of God if you don't know Jesus and just stopping at the beauty of that and the invitation there and not jumping to well if you don't profess Jesus as your Lord and Savior you're going to hell you can't be with God in heaven um the weaponization of that verse really bums me out because it's it is just so beautiful and like I again just such a grace. Like we get to know who God is a little more because we get to know Jesus and why in the world would God care so much to do all that with a human body so I just I just love it.

SPEAKER_06 38:03

And and I would argue that in order to get to know Jesus you gotta get to that tomb.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Get to the tomb.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

I'm with you there.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Right I'm with you there I like the tombs I like the tomb conversation well will will would you close us well would you close us in prayer too and can you use the word fan dangled in the we used to say that uh at my last church that whoever got called on to pray was being punished that's how I feel right now I'm sorry you're not being that feels like theology God arrived that's wow next week on talking about punishment through prayer let's pray Gracious holy loving God we give you thanks um that you bring us together and that you bring us together around your word and that it speaks to us anew in each time and place. We give you thanks that we get to wrestle with these texts and think through them be impacted and shaped by them and so we pray in the week ahead that you will be with your people and be with us and lead us deeper into relationship with you and to the Father and that we can be shaped both in our prayer but also in our action of loving one another as you have loved us. We ask this all in Jesus' holy name. Amen