Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, May 24, 2026 | Numbers 11:24-30 | with Ashley Higgins, Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Will Wellman

Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, May 24, 2026 | Numbers 11:24-30 | with Ashley Higgins, Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Will Wellman

Numbers 11:24-30

The spirit rests on Israel's leaders 

11:24So Moses went out and told the people the words of the LORD, and he gathered seventy of the elders of the people and placed them all around the tent.

11:25Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him and took some of the spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders, and when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do so again.

11:26Two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad and the other named Medad, and the spirit rested on them; they were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, so they prophesied in the camp.

11:27And a young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp."

11:28And Joshua son of Nun, the assistant of Moses, one of his chosen men, said, "My lord Moses, stop them!"

11:29But Moses said to him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his spirit on them!"

11:30And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to another talking the text. We are looking towards Pentecost Sunday. I'm Ashley. I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_07 0:12

I'm Will. Guy. I'm Donovan.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Glad that you're all with us.

SPEAKER_07 0:17

I'm glad I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Well, I'm at the listeners. Okay. But we're glad that you're here too, Tom. Thank you, Ashley.

SPEAKER_07 0:25

Some of us. And the Will's back.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Will's here. Let me pray for us and then we'll dig into the text. God, would you uh wake us up to your word this morning? And would we hear a word from you? Amen.

SPEAKER_07 0:39

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

All right. So we're gonna do something a little different this Sunday. Uh we're gonna be in Numbers, which is one of the lectionary texts, although not typically the most popular lectionary text for Pentecost, but we're gonna be in Numbers chapter 11, verses 24 through 30. Hear the word of God. So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord, and he gathered seventy elders of the people and placed them all around the tent. Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him and took some of the spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again. Two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad and the other Medad, and the spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent. And so they prophesied in the camp. And a young man ran and told Moses, Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp. And Joshua, son of Nun, the assistant of Moses, one of his chosen men, said, My Lord Moses, stop them. But Moses said to him, Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put his spirit on them? And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp. Glory to the Lord. Thanks be to God. Why did you choose this? Why'd I choose this text? Well, we've been reading around Acts.

SPEAKER_07 2:32

Yes, we have.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

For the last few weeks. And when I looked through the lectionary texts, this one caught my eye. There's so much about the spirit resting on people. And I thought it could be fun to look at a couple of different texts.

SPEAKER_07 3:00

There's a lot going on in this one.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

There's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_07 3:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So I'm curious what I've been doing some work with it, but I'm curious what y'all do you see, Donovan? What is part of the a lot going on?

SPEAKER_07 3:15

The first one is I think this this um the cloud resting on the 70 elders, but they did not do it again. They prophesied, but they did not do it again. And then uh the worry that uh maybe the power of God is going away from Moses or something. I don't know what's going on there, but somebody's scared.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Joshua's very concerned.

SPEAKER_07 3:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Doesn't this come after where Moses is told, hey, you need help. Right. Right? And uh you you can't do it alone. And so, you know, get some other folks to help you, or you're gonna burn out.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Um and I wonder if it's like, wow, other people can help, but wait a minute, what about me? I need to be in control here. Right. Uh I wonder if that's part of you know the challenge of this when we democratize uh God's gifts. Yeah, I don't have that problem. I know you don't have that problem, Donovan. Yeah. We just bow and scrape before you. Thank you. What what do I introduce myself as, Donovan? Uh uh.

SPEAKER_07 4:28

My cupbearer.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Your cupbearer, exactly. That's my job on Seth. Just hold Donovan's.

unknown 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

But Numbers is a in some ways it is a precursor to acts where then the spirit is kind of let loose on everybody. So we see just a sampling of it here in numbers. And there's sort of mixed reviews.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Is it the same spirit, Ashley?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

I don't know, guy. Is it?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Absolutely. It is. Trinity's present there in the Old Testament, right? Absolutely. But doesn't come in fullness until Pentecost. Right.

SPEAKER_07 5:07

That's that's the doctrine in which we believe.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yes, the doctrine in which we believe. Yeah. You're not going to go all heterodox on the topic. I can see you doing that.

SPEAKER_07 5:19

Yeah, so there's a real worry about this spirit thing. As there is in Acts Gospel, right? That it just it goes out to the wrong people, or you know, it it uh challenges power.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

I mean, I I think it's very interesting that you know, we Presbyterians who like order and all that good stuff kind of are a little worried about the Holy Spirit. It's uh makes us uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I think that you know, the end of um verse 25, the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again. Yeah, there's a sense there too of like, hold on now, like let's maintain some some more to hear. Don't don't think this is it.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Doesn't say they could not do so again, right? Like because when I first read that, I was like, oh, they didn't get to do it again, but it sounds as if that was a choice, right?

SPEAKER_07 6:23

There's I read something this morning that said um there might be real concern upon uh like on the priestly authors whether this is to let Moses that letting power go out too far or something.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

J.E.D.P. at the priestly writers.

SPEAKER_07 6:45

Yeah. Yeah let's not let's not let this get out too far.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

And yet then when we put it in conversation with Axe, um the spirit is given to so many. I mean, I think one of the most wonderful things about the Axe text is how intentionally inclusive and diverse the early church is, and we can't ever get around that. Uh for those who want to say it's just for a certain group. No, you know, everybody's there.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

So you got a couple of, I mean, like what so what are the fears, right? Like one might be this from a priestly perspective, is this gonna be the representation that we want of the spirit of God? So there's that fear, maybe seems like there's also you could read into it in a sense of like almost like a scarcity mentality. You're saying, well, if if you if they have the spirit, does Moses have less? Or if they have the spirit, does that mean that I couldn't have the spirit? So one writer talked about like sharing a candle. So I think of like a Christmas Eve service. You know, if I light a candle, by sharing that light with somebody else, doesn't do anything to mine. It's actually making the the room brighter. You know, it's the the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

It takes a spark.

SPEAKER_07 8:27

Okay. Thank you, guys. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Where were we just singing that song? No, somewhere else.

SPEAKER_07 8:33

You must have been somewhere else. I was with your with your probably at the PTS room at your oh we get Baptist Friends.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, it doesn't work with friends in Princeton.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Thank you, guy.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

You're welcome. The spirit gave me that insight.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

So sweet.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Um, but that I I think I think a lot about scarcity mentality. We don't think there's enough to go around. So the fear that either like the spirit's on the loose and oh no, whose whose hands isn't gonna fall in the wrong hands? And or, you know, like I don't know, which camp do you fall, would you would you be more tempted to fall into, right? Like the spirits on the loose, who will it fall into the wrong hands? Or there's not enough of this, you know, to does that diminish me if other people have a word from the Lord? That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_07 9:20

That's why I don't let Will talk.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Well go ahead, Will. Go ahead, Will.

SPEAKER_05 9:26

Well, I think another question is who wants the spirit? Because this opens with the camp burning, with God getting mad, and then the chapter closes with God getting mad and sending a plague. And so, like, I think we are almost tamed in our understanding of God. Like, the God of the Old Testament uh is is like a wild God and hard to understand and make sense of. Uh and the way that the biblical writers talk about that is through like anger and reaction. And I don't think I would say like you know, God's getting mad and petulant, but I think it's more so that like God's ways are just like uh mysterious and like uh I I could completely understand someone not wanting to deal with that God. It's like when Moses comes down from the mountain, you know, like they this is like a scary God. Uh and so like I think, you know, we can talk about like the spirit and wanting the spirit, but it's like do we really want the spirit? Like, what's the spirit gonna do? It's gonna uproot your life and change your life. And like uh it's it's uncontrollable, it's not something we can bottle up.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

That's a really good thought.

SPEAKER_07 10:55

It's uh it's to me, it's like the God is like really, really human.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I mean, just God is human?

SPEAKER_07 11:02

Yeah, I mean, the gu uh gets angry, you know. Uh I love that little, you know, thing with you know, when the people are making golden calves and all that kind of stuff, and I'll just kill them. And Moses said, Well, you can't do that. The Egyptian press will just, you know, make a field day out of this. And it's like, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, I mean, it's like, come on. You know, it's hard to think of that kind of humanity in terms of God, right?

SPEAKER_05 11:29

Yeah. But don't you think that's just like the humans making sense of something they essentially can't make sense of? Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

But Moses is not afraid to engage with that kind of God, right? Like, I mean, there's so much back and forth. And then just before this, Moses is like, if this is the way it's gonna be, just kill me.

SPEAKER_07 11:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Just kill me now. So he's he's not afraid to wrestle with it.

SPEAKER_07 11:55

It's real gritty.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

But do you feel like that? I mean, like you're talking about the wildness of the Old Testament or of the God that's depicted in the Old Testament, and then at the risk of being Marcionite because they're not different gods. I know.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

But like, but even today, when we're talking about the spirit, and and whoever mentioned, you know, sometimes our tradition is a little reticent to embrace the power of the spirit, we domesticate it, right? Because we we domesticate God in a way that we don't want the wildness, not not necessarily the vindictiveness or the quail is coming out of your nose, like um, you know, the in that's a reference to the prior verses. He's like, I'll give you meat and it'll come out of your nostrils, you know, like it feels almost vindictive. But the wildness of God where we try to tame the spirit. Um, I think some traditions would accuse us of taming the spirit with our liturgy, right? Like that we're you don't give room for the spirit to move because we have so much liturgy and we have so much structure. And so I don't believe that, mind you, listeners, but like I do think there's something about the the wildness of God that we get nervous about even today.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

Well, or just like how we conduct ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

What do you think?

SPEAKER_05 13:15

Like we're none of us are living the gospel out. Like we're trying, but like if we were truly living the gospel out, like I wouldn't have 12 jackets, 12 coats in my closet. Well, yeah. I mean, I've I've told this story before, but like I think it's just such a great example of it. But like the last church I was at had a relationship with uh a village in um in Uganda, and the village leader came to Tampa one time, and he goes, Where are all the kids? And he they were like, What do you mean? And he goes, Y'all have such big homes, why aren't you adopting children to live in these extra rooms? Oh and it was like for him, that was like just plain as day. It wasn't offensive, it was just like a really normal question. And so, like, I think we can talk about like liturgy, but like the the reality is like the the challenge of the gospel, deeply, deeply empowered by the spirit, is something we're afraid of and is like a challenge upon us.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

I don't think it's fair to say no one's living out the gospel. I'm gonna go at you like Donovan went at you if he weeks.

SPEAKER_05 14:24

Yeah, I mean that's fair.

SPEAKER_06 14:25

Go for it.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Name one.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Is in part trying to help answer the question about where the kids are.

SPEAKER_05 14:32

Yeah, yeah. I I I think people are uh like I'm obviously prone to hyperbole all the time. Uh and and you know, listeners bear with me. But like I do think like if you think, hey, I'm living the gospel out, like you you've got some soul searching to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, but could you not say we're always being invited to live out the gospel more?

SPEAKER_06 14:54

Yes, but that's not his point.

SPEAKER_05 14:56

I yeah, but like I do think like the the and and like again, I'm gonna fall back on Kierkegaard, but like his whole point is like none of us are Christian.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

We're becoming.

SPEAKER_05 15:06

Yes. And so like I don't think anyone can conclusively say, like, I'm living the gospel out.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, but how yeah, but how do you become? You you're practicing.

SPEAKER_05 15:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

So we're practicing living the gospel, and there's always an invitation to live more.

SPEAKER_05 15:23

Yes, but I think that's like that's that's what Pentecost is for me, is a reminder that like stop uh resting on your laurels, look around you, see where there is space to grow, and and more so look where God is at work in this world beyond your walls uh and beyond just the habits that you have been accustomed to. And like I more than anyone am guilty of this. Like, I'm not trying to say like I'm not pointing fingers. Like, this is something I I wrestle with every day with myself. But like I I think we have neutered uh and uh and just completely like we come to Pentecost and it's like this happy go-lucky story about how these people are speaking the same language. We don't want to talk about how they sold all their possessions and shared it with each other and lived with each other.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

So it's like we're picking and choosing, you know, what parts of the gospel we like.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

There was a book back, gosh, late 80s, 90s, something like that. The domestication of the transcendent that I always found was so, so helpful and spot on about right. But you know, what you were saying, Sarah, um, I wrestle with Paul's instruction in First Corinthians 14 about do everything decently in order, of course, the great, you know, proof text of the Reformation. Um, but that's really about worship, not about the rest of the life in the church, right? And so um I I I think you know, the I'm comfortable in liturgy, I'm comfortable in in worship. Um, but I want to make sure that I'm not so comfortable outside of it for where the spirit is moving, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

And where does the spirit move even in worship? Is it through the music? Is it through a prayer? Is it through a sermon? You know, I I just wonder. I remember a uh a um a member who of a former church who was um having some conflict, and he felt God spoke to him in the middle of a worship service. Uh another friend of mine, you know, in the middle of communion and prayer felt, you know, addressed by God. Uh, you know, so I I've how is the spirit still moving, although uh not necessarily in the Pentecostal way of signs and wonders in in the service? But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, it it looks different at different times and for different people.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:05

Yeah. Well, and like that's that's the work of the church. That's why we continue to gather, right? Is to ask where the spirit is is active. Both within and without. And so, you know, the work of the church is just this con continual dialogue of inflection, looking inward to see if we're following where we're being called, and also to look outward to see where God is at work around us.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Who is it that, I mean, this has gone around a lot, so I don't know if we know who it's attributed to, but this idea of like when you're preaching, or I would say, you know, when you're when you're coming into worship, um, well, the preacher's role is to um afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted, right? And that's the the spirit kind of moves in that way. I think sometimes I almost every Sunday I'm like, ugh, I'm the afflicted. And I just arrive to be comfort, you know, because the spirit is the great comforter. But I also recognize there's such a place of challenge and, you know, the posture you bring into worship. So I think a lot of us come into worship as consumers, right? Like the the worship service is the product, you know, the preacher's the producer of the word. If we have a if we have an issue with it, we call management the next day and let them know. I mean, that was in in other churches I've served, I've literally had people like call the senior pastor and complain about how I led the call to worship. And then it's like, okay, so we'll um adjust the product so that it's more to your liking. But I think that's a challenge to us as we enter into worship is being open and aware of the spirit's movement. And sometimes it's gonna, like you said, like it's gonna challenge us, it's gonna uproot us, it's gonna shake us up. But I think our MO or from mine is I'm gonna go to worship so I can feel a little better this week and get a nice, you know, good lesson to take with me into the week ahead and uh forget about it by Tuesday and then come back on Sunday, right? Unless it's super compelling, like Donovan's sermon on Sunday, where I remember every word.

SPEAKER_05 20:15

Thank you. Yeah, I just wonder like, can the comfort and affliction be the same?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Ugh. Say more.

SPEAKER_05 20:23

Well, I'm just thinking about like, can't you come to church to be surrounded by a community that deeply loves you and cares for you and knows you, and also to hear scripture and words and hymns that challenge you to deepen your faith and the way you live that faith.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 20:45

And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

That'd be the goal, right?

SPEAKER_05 20:47

Yeah, and so like I don't like I almost want to say, like, it the it it's doing both all the time. There there's um an American uh theologian, Alexander Schmaiman, and he has this beautiful book called For the Life of the World, and he talks about coming in on Sunday, and he's he's Eastern Orthodox, so he has a di a different theology and much different liturgy, but his his idea is like we're we're coming in for a moment to encounter heaven, to encounter God in the fullest presence we are going to encounter God in. And in that encounter, we are recharged, renewed, and restored, and then we go out into the just world that batters and beats us and calls for mission and calls for love, uh, and we uh we go out and we do that work, and then by Sunday, we are just completely destroyed and wrecked, and we come back and and get recharged, renewed, restored, and then go out and do it again. And so for him, it's this like uh this cycle. And so like the liturgy is literally this sense of like Not just comforting, but also like pushing you back out into the world.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Right, right. Also that recently I feel like I don't know why I've been feeling a little sensitive about like conversation that makes it seem like God isn't out in the world. And that like this is not God's world that God made and called good. So and maybe you're not saying any of that. Well, I know you're not like that's not what you're saying. But I do think there is a a call then to wonder in what ways is God building up other communities, not just ours. So that takes the the uh monopoly of God's spirit from us to say how how is God doing that other places that we need to learn from? Yeah. And in what ways is God up to that in the world through communities that wouldn't even call themselves Christian? So, like if the spirit really is loose, then the spirit is loose. And you know, script like it blows wherever it wants to blow. And so that I think that can be a challenge for me as a part of a privileged uh family, community to say, all right, but how am I looking to learn from elsewhere that God is is moving in the world and be ready to be surprised by that?

SPEAKER_05 23:40

Yeah, and Christianity doesn't own God.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:43

Like God's beyond religion.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

One of the things that I always think about when we talk Trinitarian language, my church in Covenant, uh Charlotte, um, had beautiful singlass. Um and in the chancel, uh, there were three bays of windows, father, son, and spirit windows, and each had four windows in each bay. And the father windows, interestingly, were uh, you know, what do you what do you do for the first person of the Godhead? They actually had four prophets. So Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Amos, you know, God's love, justice, holiness, compassion, uh four windows of Jesus, where I am windows, and then the spirit windows. The first one was the Pentecost window. I can't remember the second, but the bottom two were Brahms and Bach. And this notion that the spirit influences the artists and gifts of art. And I always loved that it wasn't, you know, they took it beyond sort of the narrow biblical uh sense and um that how much of you know interpretation is beyond just what we think is narrowly churchy, right? Um so I I thought uh the the spirit of the uh inspirer of uh of beauty uh is something that is um is helpful for me. You know, I think we uh Presbyterians have privileged the good and the true, and we also forget about the beautiful, which uh your um sheman or whatever his name is is out of the Orthodox tradition, very much into that as well. Much different uh interior sanctuary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 25:40

I think we have a hard time with if if if God is a truth, you know, what is that truth if it's an if is it a is it a a narrow truth, uh a fine point, a fine sharp light or something. And then you know uh then how do we either what's what's our saying? Um preservation of the truth? I mean, is what's the what what are the six grade ends of the truth? Six grade ends of the truth, preservation of the truth. That always makes me nervous. It's like what? Yeah. And uh what truth are we preserving? And is that the same thing that whatever Joe Joshua has a problem with, the Pharisees have a problem with, or Paul has a problem, whatever it is. Um and then let the same mind be in you that is in Christ Jesus who empties himself. So how do we get ourselves out of the way so that truth can happen? And yet, you know, you read Corinthians, and you know, I know you're spiritual in every way, uh, but you're not you're not getting this.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Truth is in order to goodness was my favorite line in the book of order. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

What isn't truth? Truth is an order to goodness.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

You have a favorite line in the book of order?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

That's really like in a beautiful Presbyterian thing, Sarah. I'm just trying to be Presbyterian.

SPEAKER_05 27:18

What about Jesus just saying I am the truth?

SPEAKER_07 27:20

There you go, right? And what is that? And then what Jesus, what kind of Jesus do you want to make is the truth?

SPEAKER_05 27:27

Well, I don't think it's like a factoid, right? It's not like a statement or a doctrine, it's a person which is relational and and then the way in the life. So it's like a way of being. I I just like uh I I don't know. It's like when you come away from the Pentecost story, when you come away from hearing the gospels, like how do you capture that? I'm I'm asking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Apparently none of us are. And I do think, you know, for me, uh when you come away from the Pentecost story, it moves immediately into the organization of the early church. Yeah, yeah. With those marks of you know, sharing things together, uh, you know, the apostles' teaching, prayers, breaking of bread. And you know, that seems to me to be what we're called to do. That, you know, you you you don't have to get really super sophisticated.

SPEAKER_07 28:31

Do you have uh like age old people that were part of the holiness movement that is coursing around in your blood? I think you need to release yourself from trying to be pure, right? And just just allow yourself to be loved by Jesus.

SPEAKER_05 28:49

Aaron Powell What is it? Uh to the pure, all things are pure?

SPEAKER_07 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:54

That's from the Bible. Titus.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

I just know that I've been part of communities that kind of are like Joshua. Like it feels like, I mean, poor Joshua, like he's just trying to, I would say, protect the truth. Absolutely. Right? And I and I've been part of communities and they make me so anxious, where it's like, it is our job to um articulate and protect the truth as we know it to be inerrantly present in the word of God. And then I go, I don't know what if I can articulate that in a compelling way. And then if you would disagree with me, I'm not sure if I can argue enough to make sure that you know that it's the right truth and I can't protect it. And oh gosh, L dad and me, dad are talking about things that I don't know if I agree with. Like, I can feel Joshua's anxiety, especially as a pastor, because sometimes that's that's how we're looked at, right? Like, okay, Pastor, give us the right answer.

SPEAKER_07 29:57

I mean, I wish they'd look at us more like that.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

People get asked that all the time, huh? Joshua.

SPEAKER_07 30:04

Thank you for the right answer, Pastor.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

No, but in verse 28, Joshua's like, Moses, stop them. Oh, Eldad and Edinad are prophesying.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

Well, you don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

This is uh Miriam and Aaron when Moses they go at Moses about being married to a foreigner, which God had literally said, don't do that. And then Miriam ends up with you know, outside of the camp with leprosy. I mean, that's a real question, I think, to wrestle with. What do we do when we feel like we're following the rules? But but we are. I mean, they were literally calling Moses out on something that God had told that community not to do. Right. Right. And they were punished for it. Her more so than him. That's a different conversation. But you know, I yeah, I have a lot of empathy, like you're saying for the Joshuas, for the wait a minute now, is this of God?

SPEAKER_02 31:05

It's it's interesting. I I I take the other uh point of view, I suppose. I'm I'm gonna be working with uh um one of my classes, and we'll start reading uh Brian McLaren's book, Generous Orthodoxy, which I find so helpful. Um, you know, there's there's truth in a lot of different um communities, and I think to um have a openness, uh I know you know, for all the years that I've uh helped run the adult education here, uh I've sort of tried to put like in bowling, you know, some bumper guards uh so the ball stays in the butt you know, not a narrow lane. Uh keep that a little bit open because I think the spirit works with us in very, very different ways. You know, I remember one person I was counseling with who uh you know just needed to put the burden down. I'm like, go read Galatians for freedom. Christ has set you free. But uh other people I know who are um prone to uh cheap grace, you know, spend some time in Matthew and uh realize that uh the bar is actually uh a lot higher than you think it is. And you know, so I think some of it's a mystery of our personality and and all of the and our circumstances, but uh um I know I I get uh uncomfortable with the Joshuas who want to overly nail it down.

SPEAKER_07 32:45

But you gotta protect the community, right? Right, exactly. I mean, so you there you know that's to me the challenge of the pastorate is shepherd versus prophet. Um and you know, how do we how do we be prophetic and yet figure out how to do it as a community? Uh all that kind of thing. I think that's so impossible.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

And when are we to talk about idolatry some a bit. A bit, yeah. Sorry, you were saying something.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

I mean, I just I I do feel like we're in a moment in time, as maybe the church is a lot of different times, always that make may call of us, may have already called of us and we haven't answered yet to to speak some truth and call some call some BS that maybe our maybe like the the church as a whole in in the United States. I don't know. I I really recommend that.

SPEAKER_07 33:57

What we're doing is not really Christian. I mean basically we have to look at ourselves and go, okay, what um you know, I cannot start pointing fingers at other people when I have you know three cars and six rooms.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

But do I have to wait until my perfection to call out others or because then it would be a good thing? Well, I'm I'm really curious what you would say to that, right?

SPEAKER_05 34:26

Like the the the balance of always looking at looking inward and also I I think the most effective prophets have been people that have lived a deeply radical life. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of social media prophets these days who are not living in ways that match their language. And so I think of people like Martin Luther King, uh and and the entire civil rights movement, who literally put their bodies on the line. I think of people like Dorothy Day, who lived a radically different type of life. Uh, she had politics that people might consider radical, and but like she backed that up with the way she lived.

unknown 35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:15

And I think one of the temptations of younger generations, especially in the digital age, is to think that um Facebook and well, no one uses Facebook besides older folks now. But like Instagram or or Twitter or like TikTok is like is like a form of activism. And it's not.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 35:35

Uh and and even like a lot of times protests aren't. Like if you're just protesting and you're not getting plugged into your community and and finding out where the need is and finding out where like the mutual aid networks are and and doing that work, like what what do your words mean? Yeah. And so like I think prophecy is a deep, deep part of our tradition, but like look at our prophets. They were weirdos. It's a yeah, yeah. Like, look, Jeremiah, Elijah, Ezekiel, those were weird, weird people, right? Right. And like the call imposes upon them a weird life. Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Well, I thought you were gonna say they were I I to add to that, I thought you were gonna say they were their words came from living very deeply within the very community that they you know were.

SPEAKER_05 36:23

Well, some of them were itinerant. So, you know, like Amos came from another I mean, he came from another country.

SPEAKER_07 36:31

Yeah, I think the you know, if we had the prophets, you know, after they get done doing the prophecy to go to Starbucks and grab a cup of coffee and then target and then maybe plan their trip to Europe after that, you know.

SPEAKER_06 36:41

That's that's what I feel like we're doing. It just doesn't feel that's a caricature, but like there's some truth to it for sure.

SPEAKER_07 36:48

There's a real truth to that. The last protest I went to, it was like, okay, we're meeting at Starbucks later. You know, it's just okay, what is this?

SPEAKER_05 36:56

What is this? Yeah, and I I don't want to like diminish protest or speaking out, because I think that's important. I just, I just like I think we live in such an age of spectacle. And so everything is like performative and aesthetic, right? And there's nothing matching it up as far as lifestyle uh and action. And so like it's like prophecy, but there's no discipleship. It's just like, you know, and and granted, there are plenty of people doing good work that are prophetic these days. I'm not trying to say no one isn't, but I I am saying like I do think there is a temptation in our day and age um to kind of tend toward uh empty words.

SPEAKER_07 37:39

Aaron Ross Powell Right. But then if we look at the prophets that, you know, you take an MLK and then you take a deep dye in MLK life and you you go, well, you can't worship MLK because he certainly made these mistakes in the R. You know, and that's what we do too, is like, you know, we we try to make these people into godlike things, you know, and but you look at what Bonho they've done with Bonhoeff. Right, exactly. And and but you look at the Bible and it's like none of these guys ever get, I mean, they get they have their mistakes. Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

And and it's it's one of the reasons I used to love uh Schindler's list. Um what an absolute, you know, messed up human.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Except on the big issue, he gets it wrong.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

You know? So how is this what's that first scene he you know holds up money? Uh and and yet by the end, uh he's wishing that money could have bought more lives. And and um uh I think we have to realize all of us are are broken fragile, but can we get the big things right? Um and and even though we're not in any way um fully perfect, can we lean into the life of discipleship and um and make a witness there?

SPEAKER_05 39:07

So I I I I I want to add too, because like I don't mean to come down so harsh uh but like I do think part of being in a community that uh traces its lineage back to these old testament stories is like and I I was actually talking about this in my class the other day, is like the prophetic tradition is is is someone from within critiquing the body from within.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

That's what I was about it.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

Yes, yes. And so like we we miss out on a deep, deep part of our tradition if we miss out on that self-critique element of it. Like that's so embedded in Judaism and Christianity, right? And it's why our tradition has been at points in time extremely successful in living out, you know, for the for as as best as possible God's intentions on this earth is because it has an eye to say, like, hey, we've got this wrong, we're doing this wrong, or we've we've lost our way.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Okay, but then we uh okay, maybe we'll just end with this. But I think I get the last word.

SPEAKER_07 40:24

Yeah, yeah, the preacher. The preacher gets the last word. And I don't know how we've Can you make it more upbeat?

SPEAKER_01 40:29

We've got no, I think Will's gonna preach someday.

SPEAKER_07 40:32

No, no, no, no. You don't want me preaching.

SPEAKER_05 40:34

Terrible preacher.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Okay, I'm just thinking about a conversation we had in Bible study, and we were talking about like resistance and speaking, and um at the end, the one of the women was like, What does this mean for the everyday life of mine? And what she left us with was I think maybe I feel called then when I'm in, you know, watching our kids baseball, and someone says something that is not true or whatever the case may be, to be brave enough to enter a conversation with them. Right. So, like what the little this all feels really grand. So, in what little ways in our tiny lives that are often full of trying to raise children or just keep our head above water, are we called to speak and live the gospel?

SPEAKER_05 41:33

Uh well, yeah, love your neighbor. Like Kierkegaard says, your neighbor's whoever's in front of you.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Yeah, that's good. Just do what Kierkegaard said.

SPEAKER_05 41:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

All right, everyone. Read up on your Kierkegaard. Um, will you pray us out?

SPEAKER_05 41:51

Is that punishment? Yes, it is. I swear that yellow punishment is great.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

I just want to give you a chance to practice the gospel.

SPEAKER_05 41:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, let's pray. Gracious, holy, loving God, we give you thanks for this church and this community and the way that you have worked through it for so many years and the way that your presence continues to speak to us now. We pray uh in this week as we move toward Pentecost, that we can be people that are open to that spirit even now, um, that we can be challenged and comforted, that we can be pushed and moved to love more deeply and more radically as you have loved us. And we ask all this, reminding ourselves that we always do this as a community and that we always have each other. And in each other we find you as well. In your son's holy name we pray. Amen.