Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, May 31, 2026 | Matthew 28:16-20 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Stephanie Boaz, and Will Wellman

Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, May 31, 2026 | Matthew 28:16-20 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Stephanie Boaz, and Will Wellman

Matthew 28:16-20

Living in the community of the Trinity 

28:16Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.

28:17When they saw him, they worshiped him, but they doubted.

28:18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

28:19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

28:20and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to another Talking the Text. I'm Donovan.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

I'm Stephanie.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

I'm Will. I'm Guy. And our text for this morning is from the end of Matthew, a familiar text, and we'll probably hear it twice on one of the uh Sunday services because we'll have it again in the baptism.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

All right. So it's Matthew 28, verses 16 till the end of the age. All right. Hear the word of God. Our ears are open.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Our ears are open.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them, and when they saw him, they worshipped him, but they doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always to the end of the age. The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God. And O Spirit, help us during this meeting to gather. May your Spirit be with us as we discuss and hear your word for us today. Amen. All right. So it was interesting. I'm reading from my new revised Standard Version Updated Edition, and it does say, and they doubt it as opposed to as some doubt it. But um Matthew, uh, it's another mountaintop experience. Three major mountaintops in Matthew, Sermon on the Mount, Transfiguration, and this one.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Well, you could count Calvary as a mountaintop, too. Yeah, that's a mountaintop. That's a mountaintop.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So, you know, Jesus can't say that all authority has been given unto him until we get to the end of the chapter because he has to live, die, and resurrect. So, what do we make of this?

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Peterson's translation of the message is interesting. I think Jesus, undeterred, went right ahead and gave his charge. God authorized and commanded me to commission you. Go out and train everyone you meet far and near in this way of life, marking them by the baptism of the threefold name, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then instruct them in the practice of all I've commanded you. I'll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up into the end of the age. And I like that, commanded and commissioned. And um the controlling verb I've always thought of this text is that to make disciples. Um what is it in the Greek? Meth methodizai, I think, something like that. For disciples, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, which goes with Matthew's gospel, I suppose. But um uh and as as the denomination has pulled away from our support of our mission co-workers around the world, this is one of the texts that I keep looking at that it is a command that we go out, um, that we don't just keep this message for ourselves, but we're instructed to go out and and make disciples.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Um And disciples are characterized as people who bear fruit, right, in Matthew's gospel. Right. And not people in name only.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:09

They're people who actually do the gospel. Right. Not just think about it. Right. Thinking about our conversation last talking the text.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yes. Yes. And you know, it's linear, so we'll you should be happy about that. Um I'm I'm with you on this one. Okay. But time? Yeah. Yeah. That's a throwback. I know. It's been a while, but so what what does it mean to make disciples today?

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Well, I think I mean as as as Guy mentioned, uh in in Matthew, one of the focuses of the entire gospel is discipleship. And so I I wonder how y'all would define disciple. Like in a contemporary sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Well, if you go by the Sermon on the Mount, it would be what? People who turn the other cheek, people who pray for their enemies, people who the meek and mild?

SPEAKER_04 5:23

Yeah. Well, there's a there's a minimal and then there's a maximal, I think, right? The minimal is come and follow.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Yeah, follow.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

And so I think a follower of Jesus is a disciple. And I think we're constantly growing. The the thing that's so interesting to me about this passage is it is the baptismal text, right? We can't, you know, move away. We don't baptize in the name of the Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer. It is the trifle name of the Triune God. Um and I think about how my way of talking about discipleship is growing up into my baptismal identity. Um, and what that meant for me when I was uh a young person is very different than what it means for me now, having tried to follow Jesus for you know now what on 50 years, I suppose. Um and so I think it's this continually deepening and growing understanding of what does it mean to follow. Um, we we can we don't talk about it much in in our tradition about I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, no turning back, you know, all of those kind of revival songs. Um but I do think that uh if we're serious about our discipleship, it is it is that daily devotional of following the one who calls us into this life and that our baptism isn't completed until our death. And that's a continually growing experience of community with the triune God.

unknown 7:18

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

And there's not an end point at which you have fully become a disciple in this life. It's always a moving target because Jesus is always ahead of us, always leading us. Um, but there's also that also means there's not like a start point either. Like once you start to follow Jesus, you're in the game. It's time to go. You're you're it's not like you have to grow in understanding enough before you are called to live the way that Jesus is. And so the Sermon on the Mount becomes what you sign up for the first day that that you say you're a disciple.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah. So you you have to reflect the teaching, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, and the I'm just reading through the Sermon on the Mount. That's some tough teaching.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Well, there's also the excuse me, the disciple passages in later chapters, like in 8 through 11. And one of those is, you know, the kind of like sacrificial nature involved in becoming a disciple and like leaving your family and all that kind of stuff. Which I I mean, like those are I I think a lot of people kind of ignore those passages because of how radical they are. I also think it's like worthwhile to think through like Jesus is regularly hyperbolic to make a point. You know, um like if your arm causes you to sin, cut it off. Um My eye's the problem. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Gouge amount. Exactly. Um but uh but yeah, so like I but I I do think it's worthwhile to think through like this isn't like um it's like a new identity, I guess, is what I'm trying to drive to. It's not just like something that you you take on here and there. It's like uh a whole new way of being. And and and I think what's important to this, and and getting back to what Guy was kind of lifting up with this last passage, is like this is happening in the in the in the context of a community, right? Like this isn't like, hey, you go strike out on your own and do this. This is like you're doing this as part of this new community who has taken on a new identity as well. And so like when I think of baptism, I don't think of it just like, you know, it's a it's a a sacrament or a rite. It it's an entrance into a community. And like I love the reform language about being marked as part of a community, but also marked for service. Uh and that's like a way of life. Um that that's what I think about with discipleship is like this this um it it it's just like a new way of being.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

It's interesting how the word doubt is put into this thing. So the doubt of which is then faith, right? Because even though you you m are in somewhat doubting either the story or the risen Lord, um you're sent out to um to go. And speaking of going, Guy is going to leave us now for a book study. Goodbye, guy.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

See you later, guy.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Bye. Um and so uh it isn't until his disciples doubt that they're sent, which is it's not like they know it all, right? You go out kind of in faith, believing that this one and what he taught and what he says and how the resurrection happens, you know, is actually this is the way, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah, and like I uh as John says, like I don't I or John's gospel says, I don't leave you alone.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Right?

SPEAKER_03 11:35

That's what we were talking about last week with the the Holy Spirit or uh Pentecost. Is like these are largely a group of kind of like bumbling, half-understanding followers of Christ who are you know figuring it out in real time, but uh the grace uh is constantly uplifting them and equipping them.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

I gotta say though, there's something what you just said about this bumbling group of people just trying to figure it out. I think there's something really beautiful in this.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Oh, yeah, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Because a lot of Christians walk around like they know it.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah, yeah. Or it's like figured out. We got it done.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

We got it figured out. We're in the in-crowd, we're good, we're the good folks. And and just trying to feel your way around this life that Jesus has shown us and called us to live is so faithful. And so even when you don't get it, but you're trying, it is following.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah. And I think for me too, is the, you know, to make disciples, or to me, it seems like a it's like task-oriented. And what I would hope for is that it's a desire-oriented thing. That it's so good to be in community, and the words are so freeing and freeing and what else? Maybe the opposite of freeing. Uh but that you want to share it for the good of the world.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah. And that's community with other followers, but Jesus is with us. The Holy Spirit is with us, God is with us, so it's community with God as well. Which means that reminder that God is with us always. God is always watching us, God is always ready to engage with us. If we feel like it's challenging to follow Jesus' way, call out to Jesus. I have lots of conversations with Jesus in my car.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

There's nobody else there. So it's a free time to discuss who I'm having a hard time loving.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Right? Mm-hmm. But even in the like your fellow podcasters.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Well, Jesus will never tell. But the encountering of Jesus and the other, too, right? Which is the one who's hard to love. Yes. So is that too is Jesus and what does this mean? And then how do the words of Jesus align into this conversation with this other person?

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Right?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

You know, we live in a culture where we just drop people, so you know it's easier that way.

unknown 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Into all the world, but some of it.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Right, right. Yeah, the challenge is so big.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Yeah. So uh the commission to share good news.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

You know, when I have good news, I don't feel like I'm being told to share it. I just do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Say more.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Uh well, I remember like when um our first kid was we knew that Beth was pregnant, and Beth and I were like, okay, we're not gonna tell anybody until like three months into this. Well, you know, like ten days into it. I'm can't help myself, you know. You know, and you know, she's sharing two on the other side, and it's like, okay, this failed miserably. But it was like, we're so excited, you know. Um so um that's what I just I just think that shouldn't the gospel at its essence be something that we really want to we can't put a lid on it.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

And for the most part, it doesn't feel that way to most people, I think.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Well, I I wonder if that's like a freeing thing to tell people. Like that the gospel should bring you joy and not anxiety. I think a lot of us feel like um I can even remember like in my own, you know, journey through through becoming a Christian and and kind of living into it. It's almost like this defensive posture. Um like I mean, a lot of that I think is internal doubt, right? Like, is this just bogus or not? And so we're kind of projecting that onto other people. Uh but like what if Christianity isn't something we have to defend, but just good news that we get to share. Um and so, like I mean, like with your with your child, right? You don't have to like defend that Beth is pregnant and you're gonna have your first child. Right. That's that's joyful news. And I think like that's the position the gospel should bring us into is like um we aren't alone. God loves us, uh, God invites us into a new way of life that is that is joyful and life-giving, um that that pulls us away from those things that bring us down, uh, that cause us to hate, uh, that cause us to be sad. And and why why why would we need to be defensive over that? And and and the other thing is like God doesn't need defending. Um scripture doesn't either. Uh it's a it's a beautiful story. Um, it's a way of life that we're invited into. And and so maybe that is like a joyful thing. And so making disciples isn't like some neurotic impulse to make sure you've converted people, but rather sharing uh this new life with others.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

A pastor I worked at at my last church um had um a member, this was decades ago, who um was in hospice and uh called him to come talk to him, and he was freaking out this this man that was on his deathbed. And he's like, I don't know if I've saved enough people.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

And the the the pastor was like, What are you talking about? And he's like, Well, I've saved so many people, but I just don't know if that's gonna be enough for God. And and he's he just said, God doesn't care about that. You know, like they they were just like notches, notches on a belt for him, like I've done this, I've done this, I've done this. And he he said, like, in in that thing, it just becomes a commodity, right? Like you're just trying to sell something to someone, and that just completely takes out the gospel from it, right? It just becomes something you're trying to push on people. And so they had a really, really long talk, but this guy in his deathbed had to make peace with that. And I think a lot of us But that's a theology shift, right? Yeah, yeah. But maybe like, you know, I don't think a lot of us are are that extreme. Sure. But I do think there's like anxieties we carry with our faith, whether it's like, am I living into this faith or am I um am I sharing it in the way? And maybe just being joyful is the sharing and the teaching.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Or maybe it's just accepting that when you're anxious, Jesus really is with you. And that is something that is someone you can trust, is right there with you. And it's okay to be anxious and and lean into Jesus in that time. Maybe not, maybe you're not one who can put into words and have a conversation one-sided with Jesus. Some of us are very good at one-sided conversations with a pause for listening. But but even just remembering that Jesus is with you when you're anxious, when you're scared, when you feel like you've screwed up. I mean, Jesus doesn't go away from you because you've sinned or you've done something that is unkind. Um, like really believing that Jesus is with you, that's heart-changing.

unknown 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

You know, I grew up in Orange City, Iowa, which is a Dutch community and is real strong Calvinist. And, you know, that so anyway, I I just remember at Christmas time getting some Hot Wheel Sizzlers, which were little uh battery-operated cars, and and one of the sizzlers was really slow. It was painfully slow. And the name of it was Revan Heaven.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

And I thought Revan was like my dad was like Reverend. Oh. And I thought it was kind of being, you know, a little tongue-in-cheek about Reverend Heaven and all that kind of stuff. So I thought it was like the car had a sinful name. And I do remember praying, you know, Lord, you know, I apologize for the name of this car. But could you make it faster? But, you know, I mean, thinking about the guy with the notches and the belt, how much guilt, you know, I mean, that you can get just infused into the culture in which you live growing, you know. And so it's like it is a burden. And and I, you know, I think about that and just like, oh, poor kid. What are you thinking? But you know, the naive, you know, sense that that religion should be a burden or or that you're being punished or anything like that. When it should be good news and release from all that. Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Right. Yeah, it's interesting to think like, where does that come from?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Right. Puritans, they were rough man.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Yeah. Well, you even in this passage, you point it out, like they see Jesus. Endowed, right? And it says that in the Bible. Yes. During the Great Commission, right at the end.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

End.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Right. Which is a gift. Isn't it a gift though?

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Because we have our doubts.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

And sometimes we just have to live into that, trusting that we'll move through. But we have a community to work with us through our doubts.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And to me, for me, the doubt, the doubt is less about the words and the teaching and the the giving of your life. Uh the doubt probably lands more into, you know, resurrection, afterlife, human body, you know, all that kind of stuff. For me anyway. It's like, you know, I I think the the the stuff is good and true and pure. Do I doubt that doing that, you know, is you know let me just say it this way, is, you know, I think doing that leads to something eternal, whether that's, you know, bodily resurrection, I don't know. But that's where my doubt lies. But living the living the life of Jesus provides something eternal. Um that's that's where I have to land.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

But that's not to rule out bodily resurrection or I think there's always this sense of growing in our understanding, too. That is a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Um Yeah, we're never done.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

We're never done. We're always growing, and and sharing that with each other is so valuable within our community, but even outside of our community. You know, if you ever if I mean I've been in contact with people that just didn't believe before who really asked me, how do you believe all this stuff? Right. And in those times, my answer is usually, I don't know if I can explain it, but I feel it deep inside me.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Right. Or or participating in the words of Jesus or the commands of Jesus with the people that we know. I do think that the spirit involves itself and miracles happen and stuff you cannot explain happens. And uh you're led down paths that are like, I never would have done this except because of Jesus. Um I mean, I do think there's a lot of mystery that unravels that's hard to explain. Um but you you know, just on the basic sides of doing the the teachings of Jesus, I think that's a good place to start. Right?

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

unknown 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

And that making disciples isn't about filling them up with all the right answers. It's about inviting them into a way of life.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

Aaron Ross Powell and into community.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

That's something I think a lot about with this passage, is like this isn't about if Ashley was here, she'd probably yell at me because this is gonna be one of my little hyperbolic statements. But like I don't think this is about making people Christian. Like I don't think that's what it is. Yeah, I agree. I think it is about um sharing God's love with people, acknowledging that and welcoming them into that way of being. And if we if we turn that into just making Christians, we're shoehorning the the boundlessness of God into what we think Christianity is. Um and so it it just Christianity's been so divisive, right? And there's so many forms of it, and it this it's not about that. It's about we're all God's children, God has sent God's son into the world to welcome us into a new way of being, uh, to draw us back into full relationship with God and with each other. Uh, and that's that's what it's about.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah, so help me with, you know, the you know, the person who's been in the church, left the church, doesn't need the church, doesn't need Jesus, but lives a good and moral life. Um how does how does this conversation go with that person?

SPEAKER_03 26:52

What what do you mean? Well uh Like are you trying to convince them of something?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

I don't know if I'm trying to convince them. Um Or maybe just try to explain my own my own sense of call and and what that means. Yeah. You know, I I don't know. I mean I I encounter it a lot of times when I'm meeting with young people who are getting married who don't really have a faith as yet or sense of being in the church anymore, that kind of thing. And often what I do is you know compare my story with their story, which is somewhat similar, but I think um also I think you know I apologize for the church being kind of more doctrine-oriented rather than loving and community-oriented. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that kind of thing. Um But uh I guess what I'm trying to say is, you know, there there's something about being on Team Jesus that I do want to kind of fight for, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:59

Well Oh, sorry, go ahead, Stephanie.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

No, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Well, I was just gonna say, like, I say this all the time, but like I really think when we talk about belief, we have to move past it's like a s a set of certain things you have to assent to, and instead it's a way um of trusting in God. And through that trust, uh living a life that is counter to a lot of our tendencies, right? Like what we would call sinful, uh like praying for your enemies, um glorifying meekness over power, uh questioning wealth, like a like all of these things that we see in the Beatitudes and elsewhere. Um And so like I I think when we talk about those people, it's not like we have to convince them of anything. Uh we just share them, share with them this deeper, richer way of being.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

That we're failing at, even though, well, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

That it's not the um the uh the novelist Evelyn Waugh uh was supposedly a pretty not pleasant person to be around. Uh and someone once asked him, how how can you call yourself a Christian when you act like this? And he goes, Well, can you imagine if I wasn't a Christian?

SPEAKER_02 29:31

That's great. That is good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

I mean, there's gotta be something about because I remember I've I've been Presbyterian my whole life, but there was a point in seminary where I had to decide, am I really Presbyterian or not? Because am I gonna go through this process or am I gonna pick another process? Because there were, I had friends around me who didn't come with a particular denominational allegiance. Um, but for me, it was so clear that the church is not perfect and it's my family. So I chose to stay Presbyterian because that's the closest family I'm in. And you know, you can criticize your own family. Right. And so I can be part of pointing out the places where we're weak, where we haven't been faithful, where we have hurt individuals and people and projected something that has wounded people deeply, that ultimately means they don't want to walk into any church at all. And and it can be real easy to say that one denomination or another has done that more, like criticize the Catholics. I mean, didn't the Pope just apologize? Didn't he just sign something? Oh Lord, that might be fake news.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

He just wrote an encyclical about AI and it was the most kind of uh explicit apology for their compliciteness in slavery.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

But it wasn't um the encyclical was about AI, but that came up in it.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Um so in particular, we see the Catholic Church having years and years of sexual abuse. The Presbyterian Church has plenty of that as well. Sure. Every single church has plenty of that as well. I have yet to be in a congregation that hasn't had some level of sexual misconduct within it. And I have served on investigating committees, and it is something that comes up all the time because we as the church are poised to hurt if we are not making sure that we are always poised to love. And so sometimes love means going in and telling somebody, you cannot do this anymore because you will hurt too many people. Um, sometimes love means teaching a congregation about how to protect itself from people that will take advantage. Um, but even the way that we talk about our faith and live out our faith can be so hurtful to people. If we say that we believe one thing and then we live in a completely different way, that sends such a message to our young people. That sends such a message to people who aren't in the church. And it is so important that we are always paying attention to that. Um and the best way to do that is just with mistakes and all. Like it's it's when we get something wrong and we realize we did it wrong, and then we come back to it again that we show forth something really beautiful because we do serve the God of second chances, a God who is always with us. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Plus, you know, I think sometimes we're just unaware of what we're doing wrong, right? Yeah. You know? A lot of times we're unaware of what we're doing wrong. And uh and we're also very aware of what other people are doing wrong, right? Yeah. And I think about that, I don't remember what that story was where the guy goes uh to Wheaton as a undercover reporter and ends up liking the people there. It's like you know it's like, huh. You know, I went in with this and ended up with, you know, these people are doing the best they can to you know live out of gospel. So uh I'll I'll find that out in the next edition of Talking the Text. But uh it's a good story.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Aaron Ross Powell Before we close what's the Trinity Exactly It's a mystery.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

That doesn't help Donovan. I know, but I watched a guy, I think uh I think I was here at this church when I was getting um installed or the Presbytery examination was at in our sanctuary, which was fun because nobody knew me yet and I was being examined here. But the other person who was with me getting examined was given the Trinity for their question. What is the Trinity? And the more the person talked, the harder it was to get out of it. And I was like, just say it's a mystery and sit down.

unknown 34:30

Yeah. It's so true.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Yeah, I was thinking, I was thinking that was maybe the direction we were gonna go, but I I love the direction we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Because it is Trinity Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

It is Trinity Sunday, and of course, scripture never says Trinity.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

But the scripture writers and and Will did a really great class on this when last spring.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

What class?

SPEAKER_00 34:52

On the Trinity. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you did oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He did a really great class. But you know, the the biblical writers were trying to make sense of all that Jesus was telling them. And and at some point, there's God the Father, there's God the Son, there's God the Holy Spirit, and they seem to somehow understand that it wasn't like tier one, tier two, and tier three. Like now Jesus is gone. Well, we've still got this guy on the bench, so we're gonna send in the Holy Spirit, but it's an understanding that these were equally God and wrestling with that, that ultimately, eventually down the road, turns into Trinitarian language. Um, and and becomes something that theologians talk about and people in presbyteries like to trip up new members of Presbytery with uh because it is such a mystery. But I think this whole idea of some doubting and not always fully understanding things, there's so much room for that in life with Christ. There's so much room to not understand and yet feel safe in that not understanding, um, and to move forward with what you know right now is true and the and trusting that God is going to reveal this to you, God the Spirit. Um and I think that's a wonderful thing. I also love the idea that we're all theologians in the church. Yeah. It's not just, it's not just Will, even though we like to call him our resident theologian because he's really super awesome at it. And it's not just Donovan, who is our head of staff or anybody else on staff, that we really are all invited to be theologians here. Because when we are seeking to understand who God is, that's the work of theology. Especially when we point each other back to scripture and when we try to figure out how to live it in our life every day. All of that is doing theology together.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Well one thing I I want to say real quick, thinking about what we've been talking about, like a about the sense of like being in a community and the the sense of um a new way of life in a new form of community, is the idea that our understanding of God is threefold. And so the essence of who God is is relational.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

That yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

The Trinity at its core is a relationship. The like theologians talk about this this uh Greek word paracuresis, which is like mutual indwelling. Um and like Ru Rublev's icon of the Trinity is such a good job of this. They're they're they're making space for each other while being in relationship. It's like a dance, right? You have to give each other space, but you're you're working together. Yeah. And so I think like when we talk about the Trinity, um we can't we can't step away from the reality that like the core essence of who God is is relational. Yes. Um and that's what we're invited into uh over and over again. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

But you think about your own life, right? I mean, you know, Donovan, the pastor, Donovan the dad, Donovan the husband, Donovan the guy who walks his dog. You know. I mean, there's all these, you know, different ways of being that seem modal in some some sense, but it's all together in another, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

My um theology class would remind you that that that's Sibelianism. Yeah. Thank you. I knew that.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Well, but I would also like to suggest that the greatest commandment and the second that is like it, I think also really reflects Trinitarianism in love God, love neighbor, love self. And if you're not, if you can't love your neighbor, then there's some aspect of loving God that isn't working. Right. If you can't love yourself, you're not going to be able to love your neighbor. You know, that it's all tied up together because love is from God. And so I think it's a beautiful circle.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

So, all right. Uh I'm never once one for like celebrating the day. So we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Celebrating the what? The day.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Like Trinity Sunday. I mean, it's you know, to me, it's like Reformation Sunday. You know, wouldn't the Reformers have a hard time with Reformation Sunday? I mean, it's like let's create this God of Reformation and worship it. So, anyway, that's just me. How about we end this thing and Stephanie?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

All right.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

That'd be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

The Lord be with you.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

And also with you.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Lord God, we thank you for this time to be together in this space, to look at your scripture and to be reminded about what it means to be your disciples. Lord, we ask that you will help each of us and all those who are listening to truly be your followers. And as we follow, Lord, show us how to invite others in. Maybe use us to invite others in, even when we don't know that it's happening. Lord, following you is our life's calling. And you've left us a roadmap, but you also have stayed with us. So, Lord, we ask that you will help us to remember that you are with us every day. Make us faithful to look into Scripture, make us faithful to have conversation with each other within this congregation, with other Christians that we know. But also, Lord, make us ready to speak to you about our anxieties, our fears, about how hard it is to love in this broken world. How hard it is to have hope in this broken world. Lord, you never give up on us. So help us to lean into you and to carry the good news with us in a way that others can see and give us opportunities when we even know that we are sharing it on purpose so that we can be sure that we're still following you. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.