Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, June 7, 2026 | Matthew 9:9-13, 18-26 | with Donovan Drake, Stephanie Boaz, and Sarah Bird Kneff

Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, June 7, 2026 | Matthew 9:9-13, 18-26 | with Donovan Drake, Stephanie Boaz, and Sarah Bird Kneff

Matthew 9:9-13, 18-26

Christ heals a woman and raises a girl 

9:9As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax-collection station, and he said to him, "Follow me." And he got up and followed him.

9:10And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with Jesus and his disciples.

9:11When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

9:12But when he heard this, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.

9:13Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous but sinners."

9:18While he was saying these things to them, suddenly a leader came in and knelt before him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live."

9:19And Jesus got up and followed him, with his disciples.

9:20Then suddenly a woman who had been suffering from a flow of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his cloak,

9:21for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch his cloak, I will be made well."

9:22Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, "Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well." and the woman was made well from that moment.

9:23When Jesus came to the leader's house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion,

9:24he said, "Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping." And they laughed at him.

9:25But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up.

9:26And the report of this spread through all of that district.

Discover more about the welcoming community at Westminster Presbyterian Church! Click HERE to visit our website and learn about our worship, missions, programs, and the wonderful people who make our church a vibrant place to grow in faith.

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to another Talking the Text. I'm Donovan. I'm Stephanie, and I'm Sarah. And this morning we have a text from the Gospel of Matthew, verses 9 through 13 and 18 through 26. And we always wonder why they skip. Or at least I do. Anyway. Like that little section that we're going to do. That little section. We don't want to talk about that. So we're not going to talk about that. And well, let's begin with prayer. Let's pray. Gracious, loving God, we give you thanks for a word from you. And we pray that as we read it and hear it and talk about it, that we may know more about you, know more about ourselves, and follow you ever more closely. And we ask this in your son's name. Amen. Amen. All right, Matthew 9, 9 through 13, 18, and through 26, hear the word of God. As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax collection station, and he said to him, Follow me, and he got up and followed him. And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with Jesus and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners? But when he heard this, he said, Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means. I desire not sacrifice. Oops, I desire mercy, not sacrifice, for I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. And while he was saying these things to them, suddenly a leader came in and knelt before him, saying, My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hands on her, and she will live. And Jesus got up and followed him with his disciples. Then suddenly a woman who had been suffering from a flow of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his coat cloak. For she was saying to herself, If I only touch his cloak, I will be made well. Jesus turned and seeing her, he said, Take heart, daughter, your faith has made you well. And the woman was made well from that moment. When Jesus came to the leader's house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, he said, Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping, and they laughed at him. But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up. And the report of this spread through all of that district. The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God. All right. So we got these little bits and pieces, it seems like, right? So the first thing we have is Matthew sitting at a tax collection state station. Just working his job. Just working his job. And uh I just wonder how um of all the people to choose to be a disciple, you choose a tax collector. Um accountants are important. Finance community. For sure. For sure. But this is someone who's what, with the Roman government? You know, maybe maybe his morals are perhaps questioned. Yeah. And yet he has chosen to be one of the inn. Yeah. And which is a theme, I guess, right, of Matthew. It's kind of like the workers in the vineyard and all that kind of stuff, right? You know. Why do you pick these people, right? Um Well, and and then his I mean I know that the Bible the gospel writers rarely give us all the details we want, but there's no details of him deliberating or you know, it's just like when the the fisher fishermen are called, you know, Peter and James and John, and it's like and Andrew, it they just got up and followed. Wasn't they they vacillated or they, you know, said to their father Zebedee, Dad, let's make sure that there's enough people that can help you on the boat. You know, like it doesn't say Matthew got someone else to sit in for him and take care of the booth. Like he just got up and followed. So there's something compelling about who Jesus is and what he's saying. Um I'm all about context. And if you look at the begin, like what leads into this, it's just miracle after miracle after miracle. It's authority over the storm, demons into the swine, healing Jesus' or Peter's mother-in-law. I mean, there's so much that Jesus has already demonstrated, like we said on Sunday, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. So there's something about Jesus there that's engaging Matthew that makes him want to just get up and follow. And it's so quiet. It's so it would be so easy to read past that after we've been in Miracle World and we're going back into Miracle World. You know what I mean? That sounds like a great amusement park. Yeah. I want to ride a roller coaster at Miracle World. But I mean, you know, there's this tax collector sitting there. It's Matthew talking about himself in third person, potentially. Potentially. Yeah. And Jesus comes in and he just follows. Right. So And yet, isn't there something miraculous about that? So I was just thinking, if they had the scrambler ride at Miracle World, would it be Miracle Whip? Miracle Whip. Just anyway. Uh so focused on a sorry, focusing. Um interesting, you know, like you I you know, I hear the call passage in this, and then I think about Isaiah and the I'm not worthy and the hot coal on his lips and all that kind of stuff. You know, and there's none of none of that. Right? It's just Allah. Yeah. But I agree with you, Stephanie, that that in itself is miraculous. Like, I mean, again, depending on how you define it, but a miracle, but like it's a quieter thing, but the being I mean, and just the the invitation, I think that's miraculous. I think we don't pause long enough. We don't stop enough. We think about what a tall order it is to follow Jesus, to make disciples of all nations. But the fact that God is inviting us to be a part of it, to come alongside him, to come behind him, to do what he like that itself is miraculous, right? Like that's that's a gift. Um I wonder if that you know that he just gets up and follows him. And if anybody has a problem with a tax collector following him, then they follow it up with whose side are you on? Are you are you one of the Pharisees? You know, you know, who's saying, How can this happen? And then Jesus then is condemning the reader in a sense. Um with the You know. So in that sense, you know, are there people that we get angry about that Jesus has said you're you're gonna follow me. And the reason why we get angry at those people are that they're following in a way that doesn't align with the way we follow, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean that's what the Pharisees do, right? Right after this. They're like, why are you because they thought they not following Jesus, but they thought they were following the law. They were following, they were seeking God's heart. They were, you know. Mm-hmm. And it's like, so why are you calling the tax collectors and sinners? Yeah. Those aren't the people. Right. They're not the insiders. But again, there's Jesus just opening the window a little bit more in a surprising way, but but calling on Hosea, which they would be familiar with. Right. Mm-hmm. Oh, I love I love that. Sorry, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, so but sort of pointing out, well, you're doing it this way, but this is how I read mercy, not sacrifice. You know, Jesus is showing mercy. I feel like he's being so sassy. Verse 13. I mean, like that's probably the worst thing you could say to a Pharisee or a scribe, the most learned men of the time, go learn what this means. They're like, What we know what this means, you know, like but just the way he's like, go and learn what this means. Yeah, desire mercy, not sacrifice. And he's speaking their language. They know the reference there. That's a good pull. Go and yeah, that's a good pull there. Yeah, the the Hosea, because I just looked it up and we were reading that Hosea, is go, I desire steadfast love, which we'll say in Hosea whatever it is, 6-6. For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice of knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. And then whole the concept to me of steadfast love is just I I love it. I mean, I just love the thought of that it's so there. It's so on, it's always there. You can't shake it. You can't shake it off, you know. You can't do anything to make God love you anymore. Yes. You can't do anything to make it before you bring it up, any less. That's right. Yeah. Bring in the words. So is that the I wonder if that's the same word in the Septuagint, mercy. Like from Hosea 6.6. Is it steadfast because it's not translated mercy. It's translated steadfast love. Right. Because those feel different to me. Yeah, it's Hesed. Yes, steadfast love. Hesed. They feel different to you. Mercy and steadfast love. Like I think I think of mercy more as I think of steadfast love as something like you said, it's always there. Mercy more responsive, potentially, like oh, you did this, have mercy on me. Oh, you know, tax collectors and sinners have committed this infraction, we are merciful to them. Yeah. Yeah. I've always uh I remember Danielle Pott would always translate it for me as um healing. Yeah. That's so interesting. So Matthew doing his job has not asked anything of Jesus at all. And Jesus comes up to him and says, Come follow me, and he goes with him. Something happens in Matthew that he just jumps up and goes. And a surprise that Jesus would enter into this relationship with Matthew with no invitation at all. Um, and Matthew is changed by it, but also this go and learn what this means. I want mercy and not sacrifice, and talking about mercy feeling different than steadfast love. Mercy does feel like something we start to feel for someone that maybe we see in a different light. And so maybe in those moments when we see someone in a different light and our hearts are touched for them, maybe that's a moment when just like with Matthew, we didn't ask Jesus to break into our life and change it, and yet he does and changes our heart towards somebody else. Yeah, I just you know you know, i if they I desire mercy, if as opposed to your empty sacrifices, I desire you to engage in the love of the other, right? Maybe. Yep. Um people are just hard to love. They are, absolutely, absolutely. And so I think that that can be a command that we can hear that says love everybody, and we can tell ourselves we're gonna try so hard. And we may, as long as we keep Jesus in mind, keep God's love in our hearts, we may be able to see people differently, but there's still gonna be those that that our hearts have to be changed for us to see them differently. I'm just riffing right now. And our hearts have to be changed. Our hearts have to be changed. Okay. Yeah, it just sounds easier to just make a sacrifice and be done. I know. Like I would, you know, like that just sounds like I mean, you got your list of things. Oh, it's this kind of it's this kind of sin. We need to do a grain offering. Let me go get my grain and we're good to go. It's so transactional. Right. And that is, and I think that's so often what we, especially in our current culture where everything is transactional. Um, it's reductionist, like, what can you do for me? What can I do for you? Yeah, especially on these phones, or there's something about entering relationship, becoming embodied, having mercy, getting to know someone, like, oh, it's so much more messy. Yeah. You know, like, yeah. Well, and I think in this first part, there's more of Jesus pointing to something that is surprising that we can't do for ourselves, that we can't make it happen. Whereas when you get into the later story, the the last half of this passage, there are people who are showing up with faith and know that Jesus has something to offer them and they're asking for it or they're getting close to him for it. So I feel like there's this kind of neat dichotomy there. And that there are times in our lives when we know Jesus has what we need and we are going to go to him for it. And those are beautiful and also miraculous to some extent times. And then there are the times when we're not even thinking about how powerful God is. We're not even thinking about how much Jesus has done in this world and changed in this world and can change even now in our hearts, in the hearts of people that we think are not even worth Jesus' time. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking about all the I mean, I think our culture really right now is that you can just ditch people. Yeah. You know, who don't believe like you do, don't whatever they, you know, you can just ditch them because it's just easier to live that way. And this is so hard. It is, yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think the internet and the phones and all that kind of stuff have made us you know, you can just choose the channel you want to listen to instead of doing the hard work of engaging the people that are not like you. Yeah. I do think, yeah, that difference of approach. So Jesus is the one that approaches Matthew. And then you have in verse 18, you have the leader coming kneeling before Jesus. Yes. And then in um in 20, it's interesting that she doesn't kneel before Jesus. She comes up behind him. She's my fave. She's not, you're not supposed to have favorites. Oh, but she's my fave. Um but she comes up behind him. So she's not even like approaching him and asking. She's just trying to. So there's like really three different modes in some ways, where Jesus is coming to Matthew, the leader is kneeling before Jesus, and then the woman is behind behind him. Trevor Burrus, Jr. What bothers me about this is that it's it's a Mark passage, and Matthew steals it, and it's Mark's dynamics at work. Okay. Okay, say more. Well, uh so in Mark's gospel, knowing who Jesus is is primary, right? And um, so the the the leader knows who he is, um, or at least asks um that he knows he has faith. Also, the woman who and in Mark's gospel there are all these signals about what side of the what side of the lake are we on? 12 baskets fulls, you know. So we're on the Jewish side. The woman's got a uh hemorrhage for 12 years, and the girl, well, when she gets healed, oh, she's 12 years old. So it's you know so we're always hitting the 12, 12, 12 and all that. Oh well, but she asleep. Yeah, right. 12 hours. Um so the woman comes up and then in Mark's gospel, Who Touched Me? Mm-hmm. And you know, I felt you know the power come out of him, the dunami. Yeah. You know, and so you know, her faith in who he is. I know who you are, you're the son of God. And very few people get that in Mark's gospel. So and then it's a story within the story, which is Mark all along. So all that all that is to say. I think Mark's okay with it. Mark's okay with him taking it, but it, you know, Matthew just doesn't do it justice. Anyway. Oh, and then Luke does it too. I mean, all three synoptics have this story. Um but I didn't even think about that. Yeah, so Matthew's kind of stealing some of Mark's themes here. Honest thing, yeah. Um Well, she's my fave. I don't care who's talking about her. Right? What what makes her your favorite? I'm sorry, what makes her your fave? You know, something about first of all, she has this illness that is so debilitating. Um and and it it makes her have to be outside of the everyday society. And I love that somehow she has this faith in who Jesus is that she's gonna venture out through a crowd and just grab hold of his hem. Now, in this, it I wish that she felt like she was a daughter of God and could show up in front of him, like like the other man who could kneel, but she didn't know that about herself yet. And yet she still believed so much in who Jesus was that she went out where it would be uncomfortable for her, could be uncomfortable for other people. Um and she just gets a little brush of that, and that's all it takes for her to be healed. That's incredible faith. Because at no point does it seem like she's wondering, well, maybe this will help. Right. Because how many times in all her years has she probably tried something that maybe this will help? No, this was the healing she was looking for. She is sick and yet she's also not sick, because before, you know, it's not coming for the not coming for those who um, let's see what's healthy people, don't need a doctor, but sick people do. Um, she's sick and she's healthy because she has this faith and this awareness of who he is. Yeah, I think it's in Luke's gospel where it says she's tried so many other doctors, she's tried everything, which really picks up on that Jesus is the great physician. Like it is only through him. Yeah. Where is it in Mark? I'm sorry. Mark five. Mark five, that's what I'm looking at. Um Okay, there you should. Yeah, it is yeah. Endured many physicians here in Mark's. Is it Mark or I was wondering when he gets to the house in Mark's gospel, I don't remember pipes in Mark. Yeah, it doesn't say it just says And does Matthew have the story of the children who say, you know, we're trying to do we're uh We're doing the funeral procession. The kids aren't playing the funeral rite. Did we not play the pipes for you? There's a there's a thing in math. I've gone down a trail that I can't. But it's interesting. I mean, I just there's something about the funeral procession that the children are doing, and they say, Did we not play the pipes for you? and all that kind of stuff. And I'm wondering if there's a little tangent in there, and I'll have to find that out and get back to myself because no one cares. All right. Just follow up on Sunday morning. Yeah. Everyone will be everyone will be on the edge of their seats. Um I mean, but why I mean, why throw the pipes in there? That you know, it's flutes. It's flutes. Yeah. Bad translation. It's kind of pipey. Yeah. So I guess the flute it means that the person's dead, right? They are dead. And I mean, even poor people had to have, you know, like, oh, at least get one flute player and one person to wail. Like that was the Jewish um the cultural thing, is that's you have some, you know, make well, I like how he says making a commotion, but they're doing what they're supposed to do. Someone died, we're supposed to be there, we're supposed to play the song. And um I just like when he says, you know, go away. Go away. She's the girl is not dead but sleeping. Of course, they laugh at him. Yeah. And then it says uh that he puts them outside. So it's not like, oh, you're gonna laugh at me? Well, come on in and see what I can do. It's okay, you don't believe. You're on the other side of the door. And now it's just me and the girl. You know, like the and I think in one of the other gospels, he invites the mom and dad in, but it's not as if he's trying to prove something here. Yeah, Mark, it's like he has to say something to Talif Kuhn, right? I mean, yes. Little girl get up. Yeah. And she does. Mm-hmm. I just feel like this text has, I feel like this whole passage in some ways, and and the way it is in the in the other synoptics is that it it highlights for us the I don't know, the way God interrupts things. Yes. Like Matthew's mind and his business. Jesus comes and says, follow me. And then, okay, he's following the leader to go see the daughter, and then he's interrupted by this this woman who's touch, you know, this idea of of the divine um being willing to be interrupted or being willing to. And there there are Pharisees who who question and people who laugh. Yeah. And there's doubt, right, and there's faith. And they're they're right beside each other. Right. Yeah. There's there's the way the world we know, and then there is this new world coming crashing into it. And you know, what is it of Jesus that we laugh that we dismiss? Yeah. Well, and it does go back to what you said earlier of the certainty, or you said this on Sunday, like that doubt and faith coexist. And that it's in some ways the Pharisees' certainty of who's in and who's out. It's the the crowd's certainty that she's dead, there's nothing else to do that like prevents them from actually seeing the gift, seeing the invitation, seeing the the gospel coming to life in front of them. Yeah. So, like, yeah, where do we do that in our own lives? Yeah. Yeah. Can anything good come out of Jerusalem? Right? Or out of Nazareth, Nazareth, right? Yeah. I mean it's a fair question for most any place right now. Can anything good come? Right. And it's easy to ask that question with exasperation, just in general. Yeah, you know, I I'm I'm kind of haunted by this. I I went to s this kind of addiction support group thing, if you and may I may have said this already, but I was just so impressed, uh, because it's people are addicted to many things. Many, many things. And hearing people, you know, either come down and say, you know, this is the first time, you know, this is my first, you know, I want to I want to be free of this kind of thing, or I've been free for six months or six weeks, and and hearing everybody cheer for that and seeing their faces being so, you know, like they have been accepted and and celebrated, you know, for for whatever, you know, two weeks of addiction free, you know. Yeah. And the the joy on their faces because they are finally accepted for that, you know, for who they are. And I thought, this is church, you know, this is church. And how beautiful it, you know, to be clear about what's broken and to be celebrated for what's whole, you know. And it's like, wow, this is really, really impressive. Yeah. Um, so I you know, you hear all that, I hear all that in this in this text too. It's like okay, Matthew. Yeah. I don't know, Jesus. I might have you know moved 15 more feet and pick somebody else. But you know, to to to think about ourselves, you know, I think we can be even hard on ourselves. Uh you know, some of us can, I suppose. Um, you know, how do we understand steadfast love? You know. Some of us probably need a little pat on the back on occasion. Right. Yeah. And are we willing to be surprised by mercy? Right. By the mercy of Jesus, but also the mercy that Jesus can cause us to feel. Well, and I think, but that's I mean, one of the hard things is that requires vulnerability. I mean, that's one of the reasons that you have those holy moments in 12-step meetings, is because the first thing that is required is vulnerability with yourself, like honesty, vulnerability. And then if everyone's agreeing that we're going to be honest in this room, I mean, that's why I think sometimes church happens in a church basement on a Tuesday afternoon and at AA meetings more than it does sometimes on a Sunday morning, because it does feel like there's a different different things are happening in both spaces. But there feels like there's this vulnerability that then allows for the healing to come, right? Um Yeah, I think uh, you know, a sense of the community, you know, the community having to express mercy because they've received mercy. And I just to me it's like that's the attraction of the early church. You know? We, you know, I am somebody, right? Yeah. But we're not seen that way anymore, right? Like the criticism of the church now is hypocrisy, judgmentalism, all those things that you hear ad nauseum. And it's like because it's seen as this body that is like we have it together and you don't, so come here. So how when did that change? I mean, I think I think that we, the royal we, she's doing air quotes, ladies, and thank you all. This is an audio podcast. I think that, right. Thank you. I think that we have been all those things. We have been judgmental. We have been, we go inside here and we do our things. And you should come inside here with us. But then we're not always faithful about going out and doing out there what we do in here. Again, I'm using my hands, friends. Um and I think that that is that that is an issue. And we do have an opportunity to show otherwise. Yeah. But first we have to embrace that we did something wrong. Hello. Right. I'm a Christian and I have screwed up lots of times, you know? Yeah. I think we go like from Acts chapter two to Corinthians. Yeah. Everything's a mess. Everything's a mess. Right. Yeah. We're very human in this God thing, you know. Right. And we can't get ourselves out of the way of it. Right. But at any moment, Jesus can walk up to the table where you're working and change your life forever. Right. I know we're almost at time. I'm just thinking through this is like liturgically what, the second Sunday of Pentecost? I think so. I mean, we're in ordinary time. It'll be green, right? It should be. I can't wait. I love green. Um get a lot of it. Yeah. We get a lot of it. Ordinary time, it's one of my favorites. But this idea of we're st technically the second Sunday of Pentecost. So we've just celebrated Pentecost two Sundays ago. So we're still mindful as we're looking at lectionary texts of the spirit's work. And so as you're talking through that, it's those those encounters can only be had now with because we have been given the advocate, the comforter, the, you know, the one that um that that we're not left alone to actually make it happen and to to um you know become the church that we're supposed to be, that we have the power of the Holy Spirit. Um which again, we we just kind of tend to siphon off sometimes, uh, even though we claim to be Trinitarian, the spirit sometimes gets the shaft. So it's uh um, but there's there's a power there. Um it's the power that has been promised. I mean, we're living in the after acts time. We're living with the spirit, and somehow we sideline the spirit instead of recognizing that in those moments when you suddenly feel different about something, that's the Holy Spirit. In those moments when you start to feel like, I don't know if I should be doing this, that's the spirit. I mean, I think sometimes we're a little more comfortable with the idea of a Jiminy Cricket or an angel and a demon on your shoulders. But what we have is God with us and working in us, whether we're fully aware of it or not. And then when we are, it's life-changing. Yeah. All right, sir. Wait, what? I'm sorry. This is important. What is the Jiminy Cricket song? Oh, God. What is he? The one that he sang. Is he does he sing When You Wish Upon? I think he did. Oh my heavens. Is that him? I have no idea. No idea. Probably. Okay, so a few things you need to do this week, Donovan. Look that up. Yeah, the other thing. Yeah, the pipes. The pipes, and then um come to church on Sunday and you'll hear all the answers. Let's pray. Lord Jesus. Um, we give you great thanks for the gift of your word and for the ways that it always invites us deeper, uh, deeper into thought, but more importantly, deeper into relationship with each other and with you, um, through the power of your Holy Spirit. So we pray, oh God, that you would continue to use your word and use um use this community of faith to draw us closer to yourself, that we would become more like you, um, that we would make disciples of all nations through the power of you and through the power of your spirit. In Christ we pray. Amen. Amen.