Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, June 21, 2026 | Romans 6:1-11 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Stephanie Boaz, Sarah Bird Kneff, Ashley Higgins, and Will Wellman

Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, June 21, 2026 | Romans 6:1-11 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Stephanie Boaz, Sarah Bird Kneff, Ashley Higgins, and Will Wellman

Romans 6:1-11

Buried and raised with Christ in baptism 

6:1bShould we continue in sin in order that grace may increase?

6:2By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?

6:3Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

6:4Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

6:5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

6:6We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, so we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

6:7For whoever has died is freed from sin.

6:8But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

6:9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

6:10The death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God.

6:11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Welcome to another talking the text. I'm Stephanie Boaz. I'm Donovan. I'm Guy.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

I'm Ashley.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Will.

SPEAKER_05 0:12

And Sarah Birdneff.

SPEAKER_06 0:14

We are Birdneff.

SPEAKER_05 0:18

She did both names.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Fair enough. That's right. I wanted to do three names. So we are once again gathering to look at the text for this Sunday, which is going to be Romans chapter six, verses one through eleven. But before we read the scripture, let's pray together. Lord God, we thank you for this beautiful morning to wake up and to serve you and to grow in our understanding of who you are and who you call us to be. Lord, I ask that you will bless our time of looking deeply into this scripture. That you will help us to realize that we have been drawn into a relationship with you that is forever and truly is the most important thing. So guide us, Lord, as we share together today and be with all those who listen to this podcast throughout the week. In Jesus' name. Amen. All right. So this is a reading of Romans chapter 6, verses 1 through 11, and it is in the New Revised Standard Version. What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may increase? By no means. How can we who died to sin go on living in it? Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore, we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that the body of sin might be destroyed, so we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again. Death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all. But the life he lives, he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. This is the word of the Lord. Thanks for God. I do hope our ears were open. I forgot to say that part.

SPEAKER_05 3:11

Our ears are opened.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

All right, friends. What are you seeing in here?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Guys, guy, guys seeing license to sin all the more.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Absolutely. The antinomian position. You know, what it's a good thing. If sin increases, then God's grace has to increase to cover that. So why don't we sin more so that there's more grace? There we go. Yeah. Obviously, there are some people who believe that in the early church.

SPEAKER_05 3:48

Do you think people were actually thinking that? Or do you think Paul is like setting up an argument that people are are saying, like, okay, if you say grace abounds, or if you're saying that God's grace covers all, then that will make people want to sin more. Do you know what I mean? Like that there's not just that people are actually saying, let us sin so that grace can abound, but that there were people who are like, you can't talk about grace like that. Because if you talk about grace like that, people are gonna sin. Because I think about that in my own life, where I'm like, oh, I can't let myself think that I'm forgiven, or else I'll, you know, go off the rails, or I can't give myself rest or else I'll become lazy. Like these give an inch, take a mile thing. I don't, I don't know. I just that's why I've always kind of looked at it.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Yeah, I went to seminary with uh a colleague who had gone to St. Olaf, the great Lutheran school up in Minnesota. Don't you know? And she said, you know, this was the Lutheran cry at seminary or at at St. Olaf, you know, that uh uh let you know God's grace abounds all the more. So let's have a great Friday night. Uh kind of a deal, you know. And uh so I I my sense is here, he is you know laying out this incredible argument. And um I remember uh Richard Hayes, who taught for us here before he died last year, talks about being really sensitive to the questions in Romans because that's how Paul carries on his conversation, this really well argued uh doctrine, you know. But um in this one here, he's he's combating that notion that you know if God's grace is so big, uh what does it matter? And you know, I've always found we didn't we don't talk much anymore about justification, sanctification, but um you know I find a lot more of sanctification in Paul than just justification. And maybe it's I'm reading a lot of Matthew right now that kind of, you know, to your point, Sarah, you know, that there's always the danger of cheap grace. Um this reminder is, you know, what does our baptism really mean? I mean, what is what did you think about with poor old Henry last week going down to the waters here?

SPEAKER_05 6:23

Yeah, but he didn't have to go. I mean, you know, he wanted to go further. He was reaching for it. He did. He wanted to he wanted to be immersed. Um but that is it is hard because when you when you read chapters like this and you're like that we and we we baptized like that, right? Death, going under into death and out into life. Um, but he just got some sprinkling.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah, but your dad, you know, shook the water off before putting the water.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

I don't know why he did that.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah, yeah. I hadn't seen that move before.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

That was one of my um mentors, well, Kevin Long, who I worked with in Pittsburgh, he was when he first started doing, I think it was Tom Tool said, like, get them wet, like they need to be like so, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

I slap them with water.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

You slap them. Like it's just running down their face, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

David Willis, you know, that was, and I I remember having a guy in my first church who had come out of a Baptist tradition, and we spent a lot of time talking about difference between immersion and and sprinkling. And so I took handfuls of water and three times, and he was an adult and got back into his, and I saw him tapping his watch, getting the water out of his watch.

unknown 7:40

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

He was well wet.

SPEAKER_06 7:43

Yeah, he went.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

What are we gonna say, D? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I just I find this I don't know. I find it complicated. I mean, it just feels like you're playing a you go too far this way, you go too far this way, you go too far, you know. And I don't know how helpful that is.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah, well, what's Luther's old quote about the sum total of church history is a drunk man getting on a horse and falling off one side or the other. You know, it's neither a fall of grace or law, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:19

Luther did not say that.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

That's what that's I read that. Martin Marty quoted that. I've never heard that before.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

That's a that's kind of hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Well, you know, you read Martin Marty, you get good stuff. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

So do we ever I mean I guess we have premeditated sin, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

You do often. It only has to deal with you. I've experienced it. Oh my word. But I've got so many bus tires on my back for being thrown under the bus by you.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

So, well, okay, so I had an experience in the car today with my 16-year-old son John. He getting out of the house in the morning with everything you need is always a challenge. But this week he's doing a sailing camp. So there's a lot of extra stuff he needs that he does not normally need. Um, he's gotta have the watershoes, he's gotta have the the wet bag or the dry bag. I think it's called a dry bag because it can get wet and we'll be fine. Um, and he's gotta have um his um sunscreen life jacket, but it's actually called a PFD, personal flotation device. Right, and sunscreen, of course.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

You can't call them life jackets anymore. Is that true? That's very true.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

Oh my goodness. Well, we got we got him a Coast Guard approved one, so hopefully that's good. Well, bless him. Today he managed to come out of the house. We had driven just around the block and he realized he forgot something. So we went right back to get it. Meanwhile, I'm sitting there thinking, I gotta make it for the podcast. And so I'm trying to be really calm. And then we get there, like we are about to drive in to the um to where he gets out of the car, and he says, Oh my gosh, I forgot my life jacket. And he was feeling really down on himself. And I'm like, buddy, we all have days like this. And I'm trying to tell him it's okay. I know I'm kind of nervous, but these things happen. But he really just wouldn't let himself off the hook. And then this lovely woman named Jan came and was talking to us. And I mentioned to her that he had forgotten his life jacket. And she's like, Oh, no problem. We have plenty of them. It'll be fine. And if I need to run to my house around the corner and get you one, no problem. And he was like, Thank you, thank you. But his head was still really down. Yeah. Like he was having a hard time accepting this grace that was coming his way. And I was like, hey, bud, to make you feel better, um, Jan has been so nice to you and offered this grace. And this means you don't have to go to work with me today. Because that was gonna be the other option. If if he really couldn't stay, then there was no choice but for him to come with me. And he did not think my joke was funny at all. Weird. But I think, you know, so often when we know that we have messed up, it can be hard to accept grace. Um, but that doesn't mean that grace isn't powerful enough. It just means it's hard for us to accept it. And I feel like I tend to come in more contact with people who have a hard time accepting grace than they do, then I come in contact with people who are like, I'm washed by Jesus, I'm gonna get crazy now. You know, like I don't know those people. Oh yeah. I remember one guy in seminary, but I will not talk about that. Were those his literal words? I'm washed by Jesus, I'm gonna go crazy. No, he was like, I'm depraved, and I'm like, Yes, you are.

SPEAKER_06 12:18

Oh my god. I'm depraved.

SPEAKER_05 12:20

Yeah, but it is interesting that it but the the the grace or the reality of you know Jan lending the PFD. Yeah PFD um is not dependent on whether or not John is able to receive like Jan's grace is being extended no matter what. And I was reading something, you know, last week we we heard a lot of imperatives. Donovan mentioned in Psalm 100, like you gotta, you know, sing the song, you gotta come into the presence of the Lord, you gotta, and this is just a lot of indicative, like these are realities that are already in place. So it's not like I mean, from what I gather, Paul isn't saying believe this, or if you believe this, it will be true. It is this is the reality of your new life in Christ. So live in live into it. I mean, is yeah, yes, no?

SPEAKER_02 13:13

But how do you thank you, Stephanie?

unknown 13:20

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

I'm such a Calvinist that the you know that my sin is in me and and always there, always there, and uh even my best days doing great things, which can happen.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Uh by self-interest. Yeah, great. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

So what's Paul do? I mean, verse 12 said, Therefore do not let sin rain in your mor. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 13:47

That's not part of the reading.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I know But he sets up this thing that um, okay, you got this grace. Now separate yourself from the sin side. I can't do it.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

I wrote a note in my Bible. This is this is my Bible from Boy, that's the old Bible.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

I can tell.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Um, like a Baptist Bible.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

This blue pen is the pen that I used for New Testament. Uh but so this must have come from our either Anatomy of the New Testament book that we used. Y'all remember that book? Yep. Or um that a professor said, but the the question is not, am I free, but who is my master? So I think that's help that is helpful for me because it takes away the well, number one, the the pointing the finger at my myself, right? Like, but it's not a question of am I free from sin? Am I free? Am I not, you know, but but there I I will fall under a master. I am not ultimately my own master. So which master will I claim or or will I let claim me? Maybe that's a better way to say that. Um that shift is really helpful for me, right? Like if my master is Jesus, then that doesn't equal perfection on my part. That equals perfection on his part that I then live under, right? Or is my master like my body or my sin? I I I find that question really helpful. Or a reframing.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

What do you mean by master though?

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Well, like who's who under whose authority will I fall or serve? Who am I serving?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Is that how I I don't know. I I I I don't know. I recoil at that kind of language.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Why?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Because I don't see God as like a master. And like I'm like, uh yeah, I just don't see God that way. Like I I think all of this uh I I I don't know. I read this passage as not about our uh individual insufficiencies, but over the cosmic presence of death. Well, I'm I'm being serious. Like that might sound grand, but I think that's what Paul's doing in Romans. I mean, that's what Paul's doing in all of his letters. And I think we collapse this into like, oh, I am, you know, uh mean to someone, or I have uh uh an issue I need to get over. And I don't I don't think Paul is talking about that at all.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Not at all? No. Not even a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

No, I think we are imposing uh a tradition that's been handed down to us, but like I don't think it is historically what Paul is talking about. There's no conversation about individuals and and living a life after No, I think that's there, but I don't think that that pales into comparison to his larger point, which is there is a cosmic thing called sin. I'm so sorry, I've got terrible allergies. There's a cosmic thing called sin. There's a thing called law that was a form of grace given to us by God, and that unfortunately was unable to overcome sin. And you know, God has sent prophets, that was unable to overcome sin. Over and over, God has tried various means, and it's not until God sends God's only son that that cosmic thing of sin is overcome. And the the the wages of sin are death. And what overcomes death? Resurrection. And so like I think that's the framing of this story. And I think uh American Christianity uh and modern Christianity since the Enlightenment has been so focused on the individual that we miss out on this uh larger cosmic unfolding that's being accomplished through Christ. And I I don't mean to like be pedantic and like, well, you're reading it wrong. I think what we're doing is we're missing out on the scale of what God accomplishes in Christ, and we turn it into this like, well, God's gonna forgive me because I was a butthead or I used to drink too much or like I gamble or something. Like I'm being silly, but like that's what I feel like sometimes we just minimize Christ into this person that like um just like corrects these little faults of ours. And I think it's so much grander than that. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Sorry. Sorry. I think like in the fifth chapter, the end, it seems grand, and then it's the sixth chapter in the beginning seems small.

SPEAKER_06 18:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Right? So So then what do we do with the you know, what then are we to say? Well, who are we in the grand scheme of things, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

But uh I I yeah, I just don't buy that though.

SPEAKER_03 18:51

I didn't I didn't write maybe about the bathwater though, right? Like does it have to be one or the other? I think your I think your insight is you think it has to be one or the other. No? Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

The theology part, please keep talking.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

No, I just I think I think your points are always so helpful. That's not true. You got so mad at me the other week. I said helpful. I didn't say that don't agree all the time. Everyone is listening, friend. But I do that. I just don't know that you have to have it has to be an either-or.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

I I I think what I'm trying to I I guess the thing I'm trying to frame is I feel so often we take sin as moral failings. And I think it turns it into something that we ultimately say, oh, Christ is forgiving me, but we still think we can fix. And I think the whole point of this is you can't fix anything. And that's what grace is. And we have to rest in that. And I and I think like, you know, like um, I I'm I I I want to be delicate here because like there's plenty of failings we all have. But like I'm trying to think of like, well, in my classes, I always joke that my wife has a terrible gambling habit. She doesn't actually if I turn faith into like something like God's gonna fix Taylor's gambling habit. What does that even mean? Like that's I I just feel like that's like it's completely missing the point. Um I I do I want Taylor to stop gambling and throwing all our money away? Yeah. I'd like to send on the college at some point. But like I just feel like framing the like sin redemption through that kind of like individualistic moral failing completely misses out on what Paul's doing and how Paul sees the work of Christ.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Trevor Burrus, Jr. But it has to touch my life too. Yeah. He's writing like he's writing.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yes, but I don't think it's about your failures. But but I agree. That's to me, like that's the first chapter of Colossians, it's Ephesians, it's all this uh um cosmic, the cosmic Christ. And I think you know, if if he's not touching on the individual why why does he why does he lower it down in chapter six? I mean it just seems big in chapter five, and then in six, it seems like it's like what then are we to say what then are we to say? What what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:21

What then are we to say? Peterson renders it this way that I think helpful. So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving? I should hope not. If we left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there? Or didn't you realize we packed up and left there for good? That's what happened at baptism. When we went under the water, we left the old country of sin behind. We came up out of the water, we entered the new country of grace, a new life and a new land. That's what baptism into the life of Christ means. When we're lowered into the water, it's like barrow. Of Jesus. When we're raised up in the water, it's like the resurrection of Jesus. Each of us is raised into a light-filled world by our Father so that we can see where we're going in our new grace sovereign country. So I think that gets maybe a little closer than the RSV of that notion of how fundamentally this has affected us.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah. And again, I'm not trying to be like antagonistic at all. And I and I do think like if if you have new life in Christ, you will act a new way. But I think we have to be really careful about turning sin into moral moral failures and not some huge cosmic chasm that separates us from God that only Christ can bridge. Chapter eight. Of Romans? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

I I actually am more inclined to feel like we're not that serious about sin.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 22:59

I think I think a lot of people I think that there are those who are sort of pained by can I ever be good enough? And then there are plenty of us wandering around thinking, I'm not as bad as the next guy. And I really think Paul is addressing both. As much as it's every person is baptized, but we're baptized into something vaguer. And this reminder is needed for the individual, for the community, because Christ is for me, Christ is for us and everyone. And I think there has to be both in there. I I and I hear your point about we need to make sure that we're also recognizing how great grace is. It's not simply, I'm sorry and I forgive you. That what Christ has done has covered all the sin and invited us to be a part of living in a life with Christ who has covered all of sin. And therefore, we don't have to be trapped by it anymore. Therefore, we're not dead in our sin.

SPEAKER_05 24:20

I think, I mean, again, I'm thinking about like Paul has never met the church in Rome. He's never been to Rome, right? Before he writes this. So he is trying to write this letter to a pe to a fledgling church.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Churches, probably.

SPEAKER_05 24:37

Churches in a metropolis area, you know, like and I'm thinking, again, I think it's it has to be both in and like he is he is articulating this grand cosmic idea of sin and death being overcome by the death and resurrection of Christ. But then he's also like, you're a new you are new churches. How do you embody this good news? So here's the good news. How do we put flesh on it and act it out in our I mean, I think there has to be both and yeah, I I mean I guess a lot of this just is like how do you define sin? How do you define sin?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

I I would just define sin as the like like I said before, like the chasm that separates us from God.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

But how how do you where do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Where do I see that?

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Yeah, like where does it come from? Well, I mean like it comes from human action ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

I mean, like you read the Genesis story, it's the the idea that going against what God intends. And that that causes some break from being in the presence of God. And so the Genesis story is capturing that through a infraction that results in a separation from God. Right. And so I I don't see it as like it it's existential, right? It's not like a a moral failure. It's the sense that something has made us distant from God, and that distance is unrecoverable.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Aaron Ross Powell But it happens through what would you say? Through the human body.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

I don't know what it happens through. I like I don't read the Genesis story literally. I think it's trying to tell us a story to make sense of a reality. And so like I'm not going to read the Genesis story literally, but I think it evokes this idea of something we all recognize: this sense of being disconnected, um of a distance between us and God, of something existential.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God? Whose definition is that? Wasn't it great when we used to have the Westminster Confession to the guida Sarah?

SPEAKER_05 27:10

I figured that's the one. No, no, no, I knew that one for sure.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I got that up in Southern Virginia. I I I guess the thing I keep pointing to is like if we if we're called to a certain way of life, we can so easily associate that with our cultural proclivities. And then sinning becomes a cultural infraction. Well, you shouldn't cuss because XYZ, you shouldn't act this way, or that's unbecoming. I mean, we see this kind of like just childish behavior in churches all the time, right? Like, well, um, this is how we've always done it, and this is how it's supposed to be. And we begin to associate these behaviors with like uprightness and what it means to be a Christian. And I think like that's all fair and well. And like we should act in certain ways. I'm not an antinomian, but I I think we just completely minimize the world-changing work of Christ if we just associate sin with these kind of like behaviors that are ultimately just cultural.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But isn't this whole thing, the the Romans thing, kind of trying to figure out, you know, the Jewish faith in regards to Christ? I mean, it you know, chapter three is you know, but if our injustice serves to confirm the justice of God, what should we say that God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? By no means. Same echo. For then, for then how could God judge the world? But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being judged as a sinner? And why not say, as some people do, uh, let us do evil so that good may come. Their judgment is deserved. What then? Are we better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all. Both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin. So it is written. I mean, it's just the same argument again and again.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

So many questions.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I I I mean it it it it's dealing with that, but it's also dealing with it in light of Christ, right? And where where does Christ situate in this longer arc of history?

SPEAKER_02 29:10

And then what do we do with Israel?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Right? Yeah, nine and eleven or nine through eleven.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

But it's but I think that's he's getting to that point.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

And the and the sin in the law is part of that, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

I mean, to your point, Will, I've always thought and taught that we've got, you know, big S sin that Paul deals with, which was ultimately is idolatry. I I think, you know, that's the reformed definition of sin, that anything else is in that box in the center other than God. Uh and but then we got all the small sins, all the you know, other things, but really the big issue is the big S.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

But if you're a Jew and you're in Gentile land, everything's the big S sin.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

Right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah. Yeah. Can I have that pork roll, please?

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah. I mean, I I what about this question? What does Christ accomplish in resurrection? Everything.

SPEAKER_06 30:14

Okay, well, he's just called right.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Well, what does that mean for us? The redemption of all things, the reconciliation of all things. Right. So it's like a cosmic thing, right? It's a big cosmic thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

And and but I think that that I think that's what this, like, we'll say, like, who who do I who do I serve then, right? Like, I think I think that's a cosmic question. Like, am I then I am no longer stuck with sin in whatever way that you want to big ass little s. Like, because of the ridiculous grace of Christ. I like that's that's not that's not the only option, like sin and death because of the resurrection of Jesus, right? Like, I I can choose to serve that.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

What does that mean? Like, what is what does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 31:24

I think it changes the the very tangible way that I live my life. That's why I can't get away from the like, and I I hear you like the petty stupid stuff that we get caught up on, but I'm thinking like loving your neighbor, like doing justice, like like we we have a shot at that because of the life, the death, the resurrection of Jesus, where before I don't think we really had a shot at living a life, and I mean like in in communion and community, but I do think it I think it affects. I mean, I've gone under the water. I did go under the water and come back up. That's what's different about you. I am, there's so many things that are different than me. I am a new person.

SPEAKER_06 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

And I think that has tangible, you know, tangible reactions.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

I would completely agree with all of it. I I I think the the thing I'm I'm like, I I I'm being like redundant. I should just shut up. That's all right. I I just want people, I I I think a lot of times we we just turn Christianity in this neat, tidy little religion that justifies our way of being or how we compose ourselves. And I think the challenge of this is like it's like almost too big to conceive of, right? This idea that that that God's own son comes into creation and redeems all things. And and part of that redemption is that you can have a relationship with God you could never have before.

SPEAKER_06 33:15

100%.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

And everyone else has that.

SPEAKER_06 33:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

And so there's this there's this collapse of like hierarchy and all these other things and like nationality and ethnicity and stuff. And I think oftentimes we just kind of fit Christianity into our uh Southern Christian life or our northeastern Christian life or whatever whatever it is. And then it just gets minimized into this little thing, and we we only see it through that lens. And I think what Paul's doing in Romans, uh, and and you know, this is in the Gospels too, obviously, is like this is so, so, so much bigger than you want to make it.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

He's got a pr he's got a little nationalistic problem, right? I mean, he's got he's got this challenge of Israel that this story all started with, and he's Father Abraham and all this kind of stuff. And how is this gonna fit?

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Well, some suggest the real question of Romans is can God be trusted? Right. Right. And uh so we're seeing just you know, in this text, one part of this much larger argument about that God can be trusted.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

And and I think, you know, I have no problem with Jesus Christ saving the universe. You have no problem with Jesus? Not a problem at all, right? I believe that the cross is so large that it can save whatever, right? And if it can't save it, then we should worship whatever it can't save because it's more stronger than the cross. But saying all that, uh if I'm on the other side, if I'm a Jew with this history and all that kind of stuff, um you gotta give me a pretty good argument about this. Why because I've got all these promises and this rule, you know, all this stuff that I'm I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

We've got it worked out already.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Right?

SPEAKER_04 35:12

Yeah, like this is what you do, and this is how you're okay with God. And now Jesus does something new that's still very much in line with that, but it doesn't look the same at all.

SPEAKER_03 35:26

Which is your point. Yeah, right? Isn't that your point, Will? Like it it doesn't look like our our version of uh how we've condensed the grandness of God.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Well, Stephanie, good luck.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

What's your what's your what's your sermon title?

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Well, so far I only have um little outtakes from scripture. I'm not sure what they're gonna be. Of course, by no means. That's just a that's just wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

You could title it, you know, in seminary. What did our professor always say? Whenever Paul says by no means, he really means hell no. You could just that could just be your title.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah, that would be good.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

We could just print it everywhere, you know, put it in the newsletters. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

Who did you have? Also, who taught us?

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Who taught us? Was it black? Was it Dr.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

Black? Clifton Black, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

That guy was funny.

SPEAKER_05 36:27

Oh, yeah, and Parsinius.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

I had Parsinius in the co-teaching. Were you you were there before us?

SPEAKER_05 36:34

I was here the year before you guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

Anyway, anyway. I'm also thinking with Christ, because I feel like that's the point of this part, which is really only one part of at least a three-part argument of on Paul's part. So anyway. All right, well, good luck. Good luck.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Yeah, Romans is so I know.

SPEAKER_04 37:02

That's good. I'm glad you're doing it. It is good. Yeah, it is good. Well, let's see. Who looks like they want to close us with prayer today?

SPEAKER_02 37:13

I think we'll I think Will should be punished.

SPEAKER_05 37:20

No, are you saying prayer is punishment? He does.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Will Will always say Will's not even going to be here on Sunday? No. Recovering from surgery.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

Yeah. All right. Let's pray together. All right. The Lord be with you. Lord God, I thank you for this incredible team. I thank you for the ways that we can come and sit down around your scripture and be so stirred up, even though we've read these words so many times before. We thank you, Lord, for showing us the parts that apply individually because Jesus came for each and every one of us. But we also thank you that Paul is so grand and points to the larger picture of what Jesus has done for this world. Lord, I ask that you will help us to consider how it is we are drawn into that life, that purpose with Christ, both in our living and in our dying. Lord, I also lift up will to you and pray that you will go with him through his surgery, that he will be feeling better on the other side eventually after recovery. But again, I thank you for these wonderful people that I get to work with every day. They are such a blessing. In Jesus' name we pray.

SPEAKER_06 38:52

Amen.