Westminster Talking the Text
A Lectionary Podcast at Westminster Presbyterian Church
Westminster Talking the Text
Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, June 28, 2026 | Psalm 89:1-4, 15-18 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Stephanie Boaz, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Ashley Higgins
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Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, June 28, 2026 | Psalm 89:1-4, 15-18 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Stephanie Boaz, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Ashley Higgins
I sing of your love
89:1
I will sing of your steadfast love, O LORD, forever; with my mouth I will proclaim your faithfulness to all generations.
89:2
I declare that your steadfast love is established forever; your faithfulness is as firm as the heavens.
89:3
You said, "I have made a covenant with my chosen one; I have sworn to my servant David:
89:4
'I will establish your descendants forever and build your throne for all generations.'" Selah
89:15
Happy are the people who know the festal shout, who walk, O LORD, in the light of your countenance;
89:16
they exult in your name all day long and extol your righteousness.
89:17
For you are the glory of their strength; by your favor our horn is exalted.
89:18
For our shield belongs to the LORD, our king to the Holy One of Israel.
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And welcome to another Talking the Text. I'm Donovan. Guy.
SPEAKER_03Stephanie, Ashley, and Sarah.
SPEAKER_01And our text today is another psalm because I enjoy doing sermons out of the Old Testament. Yay. There we go. And Psalm 89, and it's verses 1 through 4 and then 15 through 18. But let's have a word of prayer. Let's pray. Holy God, we give you thanks and praise, and we sing of your steadfast love. So be with us in spirit as we talk about your word. May it be in our hearts, in our minds, in our conversation, and in our lives. And we ask this in your Son's name. Amen. All right, Psalm 89, 1 through 4, and then 15 through 18. Hear the word of God.
SPEAKER_02Our ears, ears are open.
SPEAKER_01I will sing of your steadfast love, O Lord, forever with my mouth. I will proclaim your faithfulness to all generations. I declare that your steadfast love is established forever. Your faithfulness is as firm as the heavens. You said, I have made a covenant with my chosen one. I have sworn to my servant David, I will establish your descendants forever and build your throne for all generations. They exalt in your name all day long and extol your righteousness. For you are the glory of their strength. By your favor our horn is exalted, for our shield belongs to our Lord, our King, to the Holy One of Israel. The word of the Lord. So uh for me anyway, I think one of the things that caught my eye was forever, all generations, forever. And um thinking about uh covenants that are forever and um I don't know. I don't know if we have much of a forever plan in our heads and hearts and that kind of thing. Burit Olam.
SPEAKER_00Covenant and perpetuity, right?
SPEAKER_05Oh nice.
SPEAKER_01So um saying all that um Yeah, kind of the the the idea of I remember as a child looking up into the stars and thinking about where does all that end and not being able to fathom that I remember talking as a kid, you know, it's like okay, even if there was like a wall at the end of space, I mean there's gotta be something behind the wall, you know, that you know that that would go on forever and ever and ever.
SPEAKER_00And that concept just I bet you could really see stars in Iowa. You can see stars in Iowa. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Sounds lovely.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, and I think we live in a culture of the right now, and you know I think also this psalm is where this, you know, Fred where the psalmist is also thinking about um, you know, needs God to show up, uh, reminding God of who God is, reminding God that this covenant is there and that uh might need some help. And then how do you handle forever, a forever God in a in a needy world, needy now world?
SPEAKER_04That language stuck out to me. Verse three, you you said. You know, I just um been doing some stuff with Job and I'm just reminded like people, we don't have to be afraid to, you know, to tell God what God has said, you know. And then I I always appreciate that honesty, and maybe that was not the sentiment, but I think reassuring people that you know, if you need to remind God what God has promised and what God has said, go for it. Take it, take that, take that right right to God. So I always appreciate that language, the the honesty and the humanness of you said I have made a covenant with my chosen one. Um I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that reminds me of the Moses and God on the mountain and God wanting to kill his people. It's like, well, you know, if you did that, the press in Egypt would really have a heyday.
SPEAKER_03Donovan's translation.
SPEAKER_00One of the things that jimped out to me was actually at the very beginning, I will sing of your steadfast love, O Lord. And I've been thinking uh a fair bit about how it is that on a very practical level uh we learn our theology through our hymnity. And uh how grateful I am that I was raised in a family that had a singing faith tradition. Um, you know, my dad would drag me to these Welsh Gamon Fagani Welsh hymn singing festivals when I was a kid. And, you know, somehow those those hymn got inside me. Yeah. And uh I was raised in a church choir uh program, and our youth group sang, and um just the gift of a hymnal uh that teaches theology through the hymnity. And uh I think we undervalue and underplay um the gift of a singing faith. Um I had a a man in my congregation in Charlotte who was a tall guy, shock of white hair. Um, and his little wife was next to him, Ofa and Don Maynus. Ofa was about five foot nothing, and Don was about six, two, and he had been a tail gunner on a B-29 in the Pacific, and he had developed uh throat cancer, and so he couldn't speak, but he would be in the back corner with his hymnal open, mouthing every word of the hymn. And yeah, I mean, it just taught me so much about worship. No sound coming out, but he was fully engaged with singing. That's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Makes me think of kids and how that comes so naturally to them to learn through song, too. Right, you know, and then you you just kind of hit well, I and maybe not all kids, but our Molly, she's a singer, so she kind of just sings her way through the day. And uh it it's not song, it's not songs that have ever been written until that moment, you know. But I it I just think there's something to it. There's something so there's something about singing that I think connects us to each other and to God in a different kind of way. And and kids soak it up. Like they like you learning theology through song. Oh my gosh, kids soak that up so easily.
SPEAKER_02We used to have um when I was a little girl, we had opening exercises, which I think was pretty common in Sunday school programs, where all the kids would come together, we would sing some songs, we would pass out attendance and have some prayer time, and then collect our offering, go to our classes. Those songs stick with me all the time. I mean, every time I preach, you all are so lucky that you don't hear one every single time. Because no matter what I'm working on, there's always some song.
SPEAKER_04You hear a song, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yep, and it's and it's a little kid song so often. Sometimes it's just a hymn, but it's also a little kid song. And, you know, of course, the theology and those little kids' songs may be maybe just so simple, but it's not completely wrong either, you know? That's right. And so, so it just I love that it just accompanies me as I work on a sermon.
SPEAKER_03We talked about the old hundredth a few weeks ago, and that's that's one of Grace's favorites that we sing to her. And then I've been singing Come Thou Found. But speaking about theology, she doesn't like the words. She's very, she really loves the um the story about Jesus dying on the cross.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03It's important. She, yeah, but not, I mean, we always go to the resurrection, but she's really into the cross part. And so she wanted me to rewrite Come Now Found, but with you know, Jesus died upon the cross and he was buried in the tomb. And like, but now she knows, like she remembers the words I made up to it because of the the melody. And I'm just like, there you go. Like it just kind of takes root in me. Yeah. So so for the psalmist, I mean, these of course are poems, they're songs. Like that's that's at the heart of what Ethan, the Ezra Hite, is saying that's the uh it's a it's are you gonna talk about Ethan?
SPEAKER_01No, I don't think I will. That's not the title of the song.
SPEAKER_00I think um verse 17 speaks to me as well. For you are the glory of their strength. Um I wish I would have had a chance to do a little bit more work on this, but all of my song books are still boxed away and I've not pulled them out yet. Um but I I, you know, I I think of that and um one of my favorite texts from Nehemiah 8.10B, the joy of the Lord is my strength. Um, how is God my strength, right? Not that I have this on my own. Um and I, you know, I think about what are the metaphors that we use for God and ones that are approachable and and and for others are not. And um, you know, my fortress, my rock uh are ones that actually are meaningful to me. Um they're not warm and fuzzy to other people, but there's you know something about that strength and foundation that uh I find um has been true in my experience and I'm grateful for. Um there was a time where I was really intentional in my prayer life of trying to use different biblical metaphors for God to expand my my thoughts around God. Um but uh you know, my rock and my redeemer, and you know, rock just it works for me.
SPEAKER_01I caught a clip um from Princeton Seminary yesterday or today where there was an interview with someone who was talking about how um, you know, right now we are with folks who have never grown up in church. The you know, the parents have never grown up, the church parents don't know the hymns, the parents don't know the scripture, that you know, the kids don't know anything. And the kind of the as a result, it's not they don't have a critique of the church because they've never been to church. And um you know, and how foreign that is from what you were just saying, guy, that kind of that where you have this kind of thing that keeps you moored or steady, or you know, at least you can find your way, I think. You know, how you know, how do we broadcast that sense in this world, you know, where this person says, I will sing, I will declare, you know. How do we share that um sense of the magnitude of the holy and what's out there to a world that's never heard it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think you read about the percentage of anxiety and you know, young and all of that. Young is anybody, you know.
SPEAKER_02It's all relative.
SPEAKER_00On the other side of the table here. Donovan, yes. Yeah, yeah. You've got uh the old side of the table and we have the young side. Stephanie, and you know, then you got me and Donovan over here on the other side are like break out the walkers. Yeah, those teeth in the jar. That's my click.
SPEAKER_04We just like to say guys.
SPEAKER_00So uh but I I I I think about you know, for for younger folks who think that it's all on them, right? I I've got to do this myself. Uh you know, and that's gotta be so exhausting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I get another thought in my head with the you know having that first sabbatical and going to the Grand Canyon and looking into that thing. And Grand Canyon is all about time. You know, you you walk millions of years, you know, they have it on the the trails and all that kind of thing. And you know, you go 10 feet and it's a million years, right? Or something. You know, it's just crazy. Um and looking at that and thinking, you know, my life isn't even a fingernail's depth in this whole thing. And yet, and feeling that kind of I am dust into dust I shall return, the the the shortness of life in the magnitude of this whole thing, and feeling somewhat comforted by comforted by that, seeing that your own, you know, that you don't have a lot of time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But you're part of the timeless. Yeah. Right? A thousand ages and the beauty of that, you know, that the beauty of the place is the the wearing away of the years, in a sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I thought you were going to go Kierkegaard on us in honor of Wilma being here about you know the uh the abyss. Um but you you're you're more hopeful today. I am I'm more good.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00Will the nasal, right? Yes. Shout out to Will the Nasalite. Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay. No, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, Sarah, you go. No, she was gonna say, Were you gonna say?
SPEAKER_03Go for it. Okay. I'm just well, I'm just thinking, like, it's interesting, you said this a few weeks ago, Donovan, of I don't remember what passage it was that we were hopping around on certain, you know, like why did they skip this part of the story? Why did they skip? And so this is a very long psalm. I mean, it's 52 verses. Yes, and we're just getting a taste of it. And we're getting the taste of praise, which the psalmist doesn't, I mean, in verse 38, it he he takes a turn, like he he acknowledges, he's he's lamenting, he's um, he's questioning, he's but but at the same time, this praise at the beginning sets that foundation, and then verse 52, he goes back to praise. So, like at the beginning, when you were talking about forever and that that stretching out before us, God's love, God's steadfast love endures forever. That doesn't mean that we're gonna be basking in the glow of glory forever. Like that there's a the God is present with us even in the valleys. And I I like that, you know, the way that it's I mean, I love Psalms of Praise, but the way that He kind of just dips in and is like, this is what's happened to us. We're not sure exactly what he's referring to, maybe the exile, right? Maybe, but you know, save us, how long will you hide yourself? And I love that at the very end, it's 51, the taunts with which you mock your enemies have mocked, O Lord, with which they have mocked every step of your anointed one. And then praise be to the Lord forever. Amen and amen. Like just kind of this this swinging back to like where we started, the singing of the praises, um, the proclaiming of God's faithfulness through all generations. Right. So I don't know, I just that context, yeah, again, I'm this lectionary preaching is kind of new for me. So I'm this is my first rodeo with this text, and I'm like, why one through four? Yeah. And then we go to 15, and then you know, like we don't get throughout the whole psalm.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I like, you know, what I like about psalms is you know, that they're so on that, you know, the theology kind of falls apart a little bit, even in what they're saying, right? It's like, you know, I know all this, but yeah, you know, right. Remember, you know, will you just remember, you know, yes, this is a bad situation. I'm in a bad place.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_00And I need a little love, right? Yeah, it's interesting. I I do a lot with the Psalms, and Psalm 89 is not one that I've done much with ever. Uh, it's certainly not on the top hip parade. Um But I I do think that uh what we have here doesn't fully do the psalm justice because it's this covenant promises struggles, and you know, God will keep us through the promises. I don't know if somebody mentioned it last week, the sign on one of the churches, you know, that faith doesn't get you around your problems, it helps you through them. And uh certainly here is this that you're not alone. Right.
SPEAKER_04Well yeah, I was gonna say, verse 15 happy are the people who know the festival shout, who walk, O Lord, in the light of your countenance. They exult in your name all day long and extol your righteousness. Uh, you know, negative Nancy over here, I'm like, uh are we are we happy? Do we exalt in you know, the name of God all the day long? But then in this very psalm, you know, right, he takes a turn and you know, maybe there's a different understanding of exaltation.
SPEAKER_01Um or reminding God, you know, you could get these festal songs again if you just come through on this one.
SPEAKER_05Come on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you remember this?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's what I love about it. It's like in fact, uh, if I'm right, isn't it? Yeah, Psalm 88, the psalm that comes before this, uh, Walter Bruggeman calls um the nastiest psalm in the Psalter.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_00Wow. And uh most Psalms of Lament end with an affirmation of praise and trust. This one does not. Yeah, and it basically says, hey, listen, if you kill me, you've just lost another voice out of your choir. Deal with that. I mean, it is a bleak damn song. Yeah. So I mean, it is also really interesting to think about how the Psalter is put together and what's around the psalms. Um I uh yeah, I mean, I know 88 a whole lot better than I do '89.
SPEAKER_01Um I remember being in Israel my first time, and it was back in '94, maybe. And while we were there, a Syrian soldier at a peace park on the border of Syria and Israel went crazy and shot up a bunch of Israeli children. And we were there at that time, and we were ha we happened to go into one of the holy sites, maybe were Abraham. Uh is Abraham sites. Anyway, we were down there and we could hear these women shrieking a song song. Yeah. And we got out of there and uh we asked the our bus driver leader, you know, what was that about? And he said, um it's not my theology, but they were singing, oh, that they would dash our enemies' heads against the rocks. Yeah. You know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um Which is in the Psalter.
SPEAKER_01Which is in the Psalter, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04In the midst of a very beautiful one of my favorite songs. Right, exactly, right?
SPEAKER_01And so and what was what also happened on that was that um King Hussein flew over to Israel and met the parents of the person. And he got on his knees to the parents, and I remember hearing this woman's voice saying, A king on his knees. What you have ever thought, you know? And I was like, wow.
unknownOh. Wow.
SPEAKER_01But it was uh it was an amazing time. Anyway, the the purity of that of the of saying to God exactly what you feel and not being ashamed or, you know, it's like, you know, God knows all our thoughts, and you know, so why are we putting on coat and tie and dresses, you know, and going, dear holy God, you know. You know if I massage this word just right, maybe you'll get what I mean.
SPEAKER_02And and I think going back to your point about the people that don't really have the words of the hymns or or the tradition that sort of comes through their heart and draws them to God because they haven't been in church. Um I mean, what is it? Of course, there's always a question, what is it that kept them from going to church? What do they think church is all about? Um, I think it's more than likely that they think church is a place that we go and just pretend like everything's okay. Right. You know? Um, and it's not. I mean, if this isn't the church is not the church if we can't also be in our deepest pains and our most painful moments and share those with each other. That's such an important part of being the church. And I think the Psalter pulls all of that together for us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and they coexist side by side. I think that's the thing. When I if I were preaching this, I like I think that would be a hard thing because the lectionary text is so, I mean, beautiful and pray, it sounds like a beautiful praise and worship song, right? Yeah. And so um trying to acknowledge anytime you're in the pulpit, right? But especially when you have such a diverse, such a large church, you have people coming from every single like the you know, the the kids were fighting in the minivan on the way here to you lost your husband last week, to I mean, like all the things. Yeah. And to we celebrated our daughter's wedding yesterday, you know, the things that are people are sitting in the pews with.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And if you as a preacher don't acknowledge and that that all of that is existing together, right? Like if we just preached on, if we're just proclaiming the good part, yeah, then we're not gonna be able to resonate with the whole of God's people. But and I think I said this a few weeks ago. I mean, one of my favorite parts about worship is that when I'm coming in and I feel deflated, or when I'm coming yesterday or last Sunday, I sat next to a um a young woman who was just so, she even what did she say after the first hymn? Uh, was the first hymn greatest thy faithfulness?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03She comes, that was a banger. Yes. She just loved, I mean, she's a younger, younger woman who's been coming to the church, and she's just like, that was a banger. That was amazing. And she's like, Don't you just love high church? Don't you just love the organ, everything? Like, she was just so glad. And I was like, that's such a gift to have someone who is in that space can receive worship. I, you know, Michael had just gone out of town. Henry had not slept the night before. I was struggling to stay awake, and I'm like, thank you for being a person next to me in the pew. And I think when there are times where we're like, I don't know if I can say the Apostles' Creed this Sunday. I'm not sure if I believe um in the communion of saints and the forgiveness of sins, but the person next to me, or the the church gathered, will say it. Kind of like what you you were saying, Guy, about the man in your church in Charlotte. Like he wasn't saying words, but the church gathered was singing and he was, you know, speaking the words with his mouth. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Anyway, I just good luck with this one, Donovan.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah. I mean, uh, there are times that's why I like you know, preaching at funerals, is because everybody's leaning in all at the same time for the same thing. Exactly. And in a church, you never have that. And you know, people will you know, oh, that was a good sermon or you know, whatever, or you missed the mark or whatever. And it's like, and then the next person goes in and goes, that's exactly what I needed. You know. And it's just like, where are you on this spectrum? And it's like, hey, maybe that sermon wasn't for you, or you know, maybe it was a lousy sermon. You know, you know, there are times where I, you know, thought, you know, God, you know, you know, I apologize, God, for taking up some time today, you know. And somebody saying, you know, that's exactly what I need to say. Okay, you got something out of this that I didn't even think was there.
SPEAKER_00So Donovan, were you suggesting some of us on staff were on the spectrum?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00That's a gift I heard from this. Thank you, Donovan.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's like a whole conversation. I mean, the theology of worship. Like, what are we doing? But who was it that had that story?
unknownOh man.
SPEAKER_03Might have been Tom Tool. Someone that was like greeting people after the service, shaking hands, and someone was like, I really didn't like those hymns you chose this week. And he's like, that's okay, they weren't for you. Like this idea of everything we're doing, you know, we're not just consumers in the pews, but we are always trying to orient ourselves to God. And it's but I just, I don't think I'd ever have the guts to say that to someone. Yeah. Be like, I'm so sorry. What would you like to sing next Sunday? Right, no, no.
SPEAKER_02You don't have to be close to retirement. Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03He was he was probably on his way out, but he was just like, that's they're not for you. Like, this is about praising the living.
SPEAKER_01I remember the woman who came up to me and said, This prayer confession, I'm not that bad. And and and I was like, Yeah, I don't think you are either, you know. Maybe you I don't think you are either. But you could be. Wouldn't that be fun? You know.
SPEAKER_04It does make me think that, you know, Stephanie, you mentioned, and we've talked about people who didn't grow up with the language and and the songs. I do think the psalms, though, I think this might this might sound heretical, so you can call me on it. Um I think the psalms, more than anywhere else, though, point to the fact that we don't have scripture. Scripture, we, you know, we do believe it's divinely inspired, but we don't have scripture because the holiest club wrote the new like new words and new language. We have scripture because of the fullness of the human experience. Yes. And I and the Psalms. So I just I hope people hear there isn't there isn't something that you have to know to get to be with God. Like this is here because of human experience, and just taking the language that I know for that and spilling it to God.
SPEAKER_00That's Calvin chapter one, right? The knowledge of self and the knowledge of God are in intertwined. Right? And and I think it's the fullness of our human experience. Um, you know, what is it that God has to do uh with us? And and if we're not engaging um the divine, then we're not fully human.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01What's the title? Who knows? That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you. Yeah, you should do like Stephanie and just call it Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Like if anyone complains about that sermon title. It's Jesus. It's Jesus. Come at her. There you go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Call me Jesus. Yeah, I think I'm always dealing with the kind of divide between the human and the divine, that they seem so far apart. And what I like about the Jesus of Philippians is that to me it's like a rejection of the divine to become human. Um and so it becomes mortal, it becomes short, you know, days are numbered. And then how you know, what do you do with a days are numbered mind versus a eternal forever God? And what's it to God, you know? And I think about people who are just going through terrible situations.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um where days are numbered. And and and what do you do with that, you know, and and you know how hard it is to move over to to the to seeing the long the long game.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01That ends the night. Yeah. But uh, you know, to me it's like the the things that we do as humans, we do eternal things to me. You know, and I I think at every at every f funeral that's what we lift up is this kind of eternal essence of who this person was. That that that leaves a mark forever. You know, that's a light that just keeps flashing across the universe. Yeah, that love is part of the economy of God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And the distance is always in us. The distance that we experience from God is always in us because God always comes close.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00All right. One of my friend's um sermon title for last Sunday was Beyond the Tartan Army. Uh he's working that that World Cup.
SPEAKER_05Uh strong.
SPEAKER_00I can't wait to hear uh to listen to his sermon, but I thought it's good for you, brother. Sounds really fun. He also got his PhD in Edinburgh, so you know, he can do that. Probably a little bit more tuned in than others. Guy, you got a prayer for us? Sure. Oh God, we will sing of your steadfast love. We sing, O Lord, forever. We're grateful that we're part of a community that takes the singing of your praise so seriously. At this congregation, sings the psalm every Sunday. And we pray, O God, that as we lift those words, they would take root deeply in our hearts, that we would know the full range of emotion that the ancients wrote into music to take their full life to you. So we come when we are deeply oriented, when our lives are disoriented, when we can praise you for reorientation. For those times when we feel deeply connected, and for those times where we are deeply, deeply grieving. We thank you, Lord, that there are words that tell us that we have permission to speak our truth to you. We ask, oh God, that you be with those in the congregation who need your strengthening presence this week. Grant us your grace as we seek to be your servants and live to your glory, for it's in Christ I pray. Amen. Amen.