Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, July 19th, 2026 | Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 | with Sarah Bird Kneff, Sophie Maness, Stephanie Boaz, and Will Wellman

Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, July 19th, 2026 | Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 | with Sarah Bird Kneff, Sophie Maness, Stephanie Boaz, and Will Wellman

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

The parable of the weeds

13:24He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field,

13:25but while everybody was asleep an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and then went away.

13:26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well.

13:27And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?'

13:28He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' The slaves said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'

13:29But he replied, 'No, for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them.

13:30Let both of them grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

13:36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples approached him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field."

13:37He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;

13:38the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one,

13:39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.

13:40Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.

13:41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers,

13:42and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13:43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Good morning and welcome to another Talking the Text. I'm Stephanie. I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I'm Will.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

And I'm Sophie. And we are glad to come to you on this morning. We're looking at Matthew chapter 13. This time we're going to be reading verses 24 through 30 and then picking up with verses 36 through 43. But before we read, let's begin with a word of prayer. The Lord be with you. And Lord God, we ask that you will open our ears and open our hearts to your word this day. We thank you that when we read your word, we hear things that we've heard before and things we've never considered before. We thank you that your word is always transformative and ask, Lord, that you will bless our time as we approach it with seriousness, with heart, and with joy. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. All right, so Matthew chapter 13, verses 24 through 30, and then again verses 36 through 43. Hear the word of God.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Our ears are open.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Jesus put before them another parable. The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field, but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. And the slaves of the household came and said to him, Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where then did these weeds come from? The man the master answered, An enemy has done this. The slave said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them? But he replied, No, for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. Let both of them grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn. Then he left the crowds and went into the house, and his disciples approached him, saying, Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field. He answered, The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the children of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. Let anyone with ears listen. The word of the Lord. So we've got another parable that is told to the disciples and those who are gathered around Jesus. And then later on, when the crowd has gone and Jesus and the disciples are together, we get an explanation.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, I didn't realize that until you read it this time. I was like, oh yeah, it's it's the same as from last week, where he told this parable, and then only the disciples are given the explanation, right? Like it's Matthew's really intentional about saying this is not told to the whole crowd who is gathered. It's just given to those most intimate to Jesus. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah. So the very first thing that catches me when I read this or when I read it again this past week, getting ready for this week, um is the statement, let them grow together, and essentially I'll take care of it later, is what the master is saying. Um and Jesus is saying, God will take care of this later. That's the first thing that comes out to me. Um, but of course, there is so much more in this passage. We've got questions about who is the evil one, who's the weed, who's the wheat.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, and I I mean I was I was thinking about this um one of the commentaries I had read about the everybody was asleep, verse 25. The so the the seed has been sown. Um and then while everyone's asleep, they you know, they've done the good work, everyone's asleep. It's in the dark of the night that an enemy comes and sows the but I don't feel like this is an indictment on initially. I'm like, see, so we should never go to sleep, right? Like we should never rest from our toil. But this like interesting um mischievous uh misch mischievousness of the of the enemy, like while everyone's asleep, comes and sows all these weeds among the wheat.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Um on the one hand, sleep is for rest. Don't know it, hope it, want it, but also sometimes we refer to sleepiness of Christians. Right you know, the whole being asleep to the power of God all around us, not having ears to hear. Yes, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

How how is this speaking about the kingdom of heaven? That's the question I have.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Because is it the kingdom of heaven is the thing being sowed out there and the other stuff is not the kingdom of heaven? Is that how y'all are reading this?

SPEAKER_01 7:00

You mean like the good seed is the kingdom of heaven? Yes. And the what and the weeds are not?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah. And so like everything else is like outside the kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

That's a that's an interesting question. Or is the sowing of good seed the kingdom?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

I read an interesting commentary. It happens to be by Mark Davis, who is a Presbyterian pastor from Iowa. Nice Iowa. We're not from Iowa. I get you a little nudge there. Um, and he talks about, which I found interesting, I admit I struggle with this passage to understand it. It's not a comfortable passage to me. But what he talked about was the systematic imitation of the weeds in with the wheat. So if we think about systems, the wheat is the kingdom and the weeds are the systems that are in there that are imitating kingdom but are evil. And if we pull them up too quickly, we destroy kingdom. I just I found that kind of interesting. And then he goes on to talk about um because the root systems are so intertwined. That's why you can't pull out too quickly. And he talks about Richard Niebuhr and Reinhold Niebuhr because the second part of the text is talking about God's got it. And Richard Niebuer in 1933 wrote an article after Japan had attacked the US that we should just wait. God's got this.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 8:54

And Reinhold Nieber responded with the article, Must We Do Nothing, that said, actually, we are called to action. So to me, I think the text raises a really interesting question of when and how do we respond, and when and how do we trust God?

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:13

And what does that look like in the lives of Christians? And and when and how are we letting systems be in place that are not of kingdom? And how do we help the wheat thrive? Like I these are hard. Yeah, like I don't have answers to these, but I did find his insights helpful.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

They're um they're brothers, right? Richard and Reinhold. Yeah. It would have been fun to be at that like Thanksgiving table. Because they were they were arguing a little bit more. Well, but because that's kind of the argument that that that we have even among ourselves in the church, right? Like, you know, let them help themselves, or oh no, we're called to help at this point, or this is when we need to interfere. You know, like trying to discern when and what and what to do, like what you're saying. Yeah. Um but yeah, I think there is something about the the um, like I read this almost on three different levels of like this is what's happening, going back to your kingdom question, like this is what's happening in the world, right? The the the weeds and the wheat are growing up together. This is also what happens in the church. Like, who are we to say? It kind of goes back to last week of, you know, who am I to say where the good soil is? Right. Like we have a lot of weedy people in the church, right? I mean, like in the church, you know, like people who are who are not proclaiming the real gospel or who are whatever it is that we disagree with. And then I think there are weeds within our own hearts too. Yeah. So I feel like there's almost this plays on different levels. Yeah. Um, I don't know if that's what Jesus would, again, I just struggle with the just like last week. The this stands for this, the enemy's the devil, the weeds are the children of wrath. Here's what's gonna happen, like that very clear-cut allegory. I sh I struggle with that. Um, which I'm assuming that's what, again, that's what Matthew kind of put in there after. And wasn't Matthew writing during was he writing like after the temple was destroyed?

unknown 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

So he's writing in a time where like we're trying to make sense of evil, right? Like evil is very real around us. And why, and Jesus has come, so why is there still it's that very classic question of why is there still evil? Yeah, why was the temple destroyed? It's because the weeds are still growing alongside us.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I I also think, too, like of our tendency to read this and automatically place ourselves among the righteous.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Like we're reading this and we're thinking, okay, now who are the evildoers? Right. Because it's not us. Right, right, right. And so I think that's an important thing for us reading this because I I think the tendency is to read this passage on its own and not take the gospel and its whole context. And I think the gospel and its whole context speaks to the brokenness of all of us and the potential for good in all of us. And so when we read something like this, I don't think it's helpful to say, like, oh, you know, Jesus is gonna drop out of the sky and you know, shoot down a bunch of bad people, and then all of us good folk will will, you know, rapture up with them.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I I I and the church has has interpreted this, I think, in the early church, as this is the refiner's fire that we hear about in the prophets. It's not that God is gonna go burn the bad people up and save the good. It's that there is brokenness in all of us and in the apocalyptic imagery, the son of man imagery, the j the judgment imagery is that we all have chaff that needs to be burned. We all have weed that needs to be uh separated.

SPEAKER_04 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Uh in instead of like these like simplistic categories of good and bad.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's a really great point.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I I mean, like this is this is like dating back to the earliest days of the church, like Irenaeus and others, um, this sense that the salvific work of jaw uh of God uh is a cleansing of those things that keeps us from God instead of like uh a separation of the good and the bad. And and and just one more quick thing, because I think this is really important with the Son of Man, because that's a a kind of enigmatic character. Uh but obviously there's a reference to Daniel and the sense of judgment. Uh one thing Carl Barth's been really helpful for me on is that when we think of judgment, we think of the American system. And the American system is you have committed a crime and you have to be punished for it. And the biblical sense of judgment is there is a person who restores order. And that's the mechanism of judgment. It's a it's a restoration of order instead of like uh a punishment for wrongdoing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Yeah. Woo! Spend some time in the car again with the teenager. Everything I mean, this keep this is a consistent theme for me right now. Oh man, the everything is about punishment right now. Like whenever I'm trying to teach him something, even I'm even telling him this is what we're trying to teach you. You're just being mean. You're just being so harsh. It's like, we're really trying to help you see something new and exercise some healthy muscles that you're just developing.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Just mean. Which we in our in the infancy of our own faith do the same thing, right? It's like you're just you're just punishing. I had not heard that before. That distinction between our own perception of what what it means to be to be punished.

unknown 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Well, it's like, what do you think of when you hear judgment? I I think all of us think of like, uh, I'm gonna get in trouble. Yeah, like you're gonna be penalized. You've done something.

SPEAKER_05 15:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

And how refreshing and like what good news to think of judgment as no, things will be made right.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Um Yeah, it just makes but it makes me struggle with that second half, though, because I agree with what you're saying, but I'm also like, it feels like Jesus is saying how we how we've interpreted it simplistically. Like, yep, the children of the kingdom are the good seed, the weeds are the children of the evil one. And just as the weeds are collected and burned up, so the angels are gonna come and the children of sin are gonna like I it feels like in this explanation, this interpretation of the parable that Jesus gives, yeah, that he is. I don't know. It's hard for me, because I I agree with what you're saying, but I'm like, are we straying from the text?

SPEAKER_02 16:23

I I don't think so, because there's still even in this explanation of this is what it all means, there's still plenty of questions in there. Like, still, who are the evildoers going back to what Will is talking about? I mean, it I think it it it doesn't honor the text to simply see it as this is the explanation and that's it. Definitely it's it's a big part of what Matthew wanted us to see. Matthew's always about that dualism and judgment. And um, and I think, you know, this is this is part of who Matthew was in his time and teaching, and thankfully a a lot has carried through that's really helpful, and there's still fullness in this passage. Just even that Jesus would take the time to explain says so much.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

I I just think like we we're reading a parable, that's one kind of like element that puts it in the not literal category, and then the explanation is apocalyptic. And this is this is a genre that is is very prevalent at this time and place, yeah. And it's like hyperbolic, yeah, it's symbolic.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

And so I I think we we have to read this like we do revelation.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

And so I think Jesus is speaking in metaphorical, symbolic language here that is intentionally kind of grabbing you to make you see a point. Uh, and I think when we put our kind of like 20th, 21st century literalist hat on, we're missing the point here because it just doesn't jive with the rest of the gospel if you read it that way. There, I mean, like the next part is about uh the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure in a field. That's a huge shift from this like fire judgment.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

So I I I think we have to take Jesus at his word that he's come to spread good news and we have to read this through that lens. And I would say that it's good news that Christ is working within us to remove those things that keep us from being in right relationship with God and our neighbor. And therefore, uh that when we come to verse 43, then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father. That's a message for all peoples. But there is work in the middle of that, and that work is uh the refiner's fire, which is uncomfortable and not fun, right? Yeah. But if if we just turn this into like a literal thing, we're just gonna end up being like, well, those are bad people and we're good people, and we're good because we know Jesus, and they don't know Jesus, or they don't know Jesus right. And we've misunderstood the entire gospel.

SPEAKER_05 19:24

When you talk about the refiners fire, the image that popped in my head is um broken pottery because we're all broken, and the the tradition of putting the gold, the melted gold in between the cracks to hold the pottery together and it comes becomes something different and beautiful. And that's what popped in my head when you talk about our own brokenness and the refiner's fire. Like that's not, as you said, it's not comfortable, but that's what's holding and recrafting what's there so that we can shine.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Yeah. Yeah. I also really like, Sarah, what you were saying about kind of three different levels, the world and the church and us individually. And I do think that the explanation part is easier to see how that um talks about the world. I think it also is very important in Matthew, the kingdom of heaven idea. And and ultimately that God is gonna win. That God is gonna make something. I think that's also an important part. And that gets really emphasized, which is really important.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

And it's something that I think is really important for us, especially us that tend to see uh uh the good news of this, right? Yeah. Uh is not to diminish the power of evil. Like evil is all around us. Uh we all participate it in some form or fashion. And so we can't just read this like, oh, everything's good. Uh we are moving in that direction, but we have to come to terms with just the brokenness around us, whether that's like systems or individuals.

SPEAKER_04 21:09

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Um I just like I I I I I love this language because it it complicates, I think, uh the simplicity we want to turn the gospel into. Yeah. Uh and it's also a challenge to us.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

So, okay, that's yeah, that's my question. It's like, so what would the what would the challenge be? Like I'm thinking about for you on Sunday and preaching and trying to Okay, what the so what of this then? Because if God is the one that's doing the the sorting, absolutely. And if we know that evil's gonna happen and we like again, knowing our reformed tradition and the sovereignty of God and our inability to like fix ourselves, but so what is the what is the challenge? What is the angel?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

There's angels in here.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

I know. I keep forgetting them because I don't know what to do with them. I know. I like angels. I like angels. Angels are tricky. They really are. Do you know what I mean? Like, what are our what are we supposed to do? What do we do?

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Yeah. Well, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Well, because like, you know, in my pa in my in my sermon on Sunday, I was like, let's just scatter lots of seed and love everyone. Like I was trying to figure out how to. But I mean, for this, if we're trusting the harvest to God, if we're acknowledging that we can't uproot the wheat, right, or uproot the wheat weeds right now, whether it's in our own hearts or in the systems around us, then what are we supposed supposed to do? Just try to keep growing? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Um right now, at least on Tuesday this week, I'm just really intrigued by all the questions. The questions about who are the evildoers? Who's the weed? Who who's the wheat? You know? No. Who's the weed? Who's the wheat? Who um you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

And Sophie's the angel.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

And what's the kingdom of heaven? I mean, obviously God wins at the end, which gives us room to spend some time with the questions. Um there's one, and I don't know how or if this will end up being part of the sermon or not. But uh, Matt Skinner was a PhD student while I was at uh Princeton, and he now is teaching at Luther Seminary. And so he's someone I love to go back to, and Matthew's one of his jams. And so he was talking about how this is a quintessential Methean passage with the either-orness and the dualism and judgment and the importance of protecting what's fragile, um, like baby wheat. Um, and there's a disturbing interpretation of the end of the age. Matthew kind of drops all of this in the middle every once in a while, you know, with this like, whoa, that was kind of shocking. But also he he mentioned this deep, deep worry of imposters among us. This deep, deep worry that we can have about the enemy. And um, and it seems like there's a lot of deep, deep worry around us. And um, like I say, I don't know, it's Tuesday, and every day in the week of preaching is pretty significant. Um, I don't know if that'll find its way into the sermon or not. There's a lot of people with deep, deep worry that is troubling them so much that it's hard for them to see the good news, to trust in the good news, to really feel as if you're fully in the hands of God, even with wheat entangling or weeds entangling. Um like even, you know, what kind of weeds are we talking about here? You know, all there's so many great questions in this. And um, I'm kind of excited to see what comes out in the end, personally.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I I think too, it's really important, especially since we're we're hearing these back to back, is that there are multiple visions of the kingdom of heaven given just in this chapter. And so if we like latch on to one of these as the end all be all, we're missing the point. And I think that again speaks uh explicitly against this kind of literalism that's kind of ingrained in American Christianity. Uh I I just like I've been thinking about this a lot. Like, we just don't flex our like theological imagination enough. We we just get like so ingrained in these like habits of like, well, this is what this means, or you know, or we just read something plainly. Um and I I think one of the beauties of the tradition is like speculation and thinking through tying this to other passages, thinking through who God is and who God um shows God's self to be through scripture, yeah, uh, and checking passages against that instead of just kind of like dwindling our interpretation of who God is to one uh set of verses.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

And so, like you, you know, the mustard seed is before this, the parable of yeast, the the the great treasure is right after this. So, like, I I I just like to get back to what Sarah was asking, like that's a good question. With with all this kind of like they're bad, they're good. That reading I think is really troubled by these other passages as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Well, and I mean ultimately this story is heard, and then other stuff happens before the disciples sit down and get this um explanation. You know, so yeah, I mean, just how busy God is in the world is sort of lost on us sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Um I also don't want to forget that like in the next chapter, Jesus feeds the 5,000. And there's like this abundance of generosity and this like uh this breaking through of the impossible. And so like I I just like uh I just want to like contest as much as possible this sense that like Jesus is just here to like burn a bunch of bad people up.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Like I just think that's such a limited uh vision of what the gospel is. And who cried. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:49

And I think culturally right now, our need to be safe. I hear that a lot. Um there's a difference for me between being safe. I understand that, particularly as a woman, and being willing to risk being a little uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_05 28:10

They're they're different, they're different things. And to risk being a little uncomfortable and use our imaginations, we can step into God's kingdom in some really fresh and wonderful ways. It might be a person that looks different from me or thinks differently from me, who maybe I haven't gotten to know very well, but they're gonna inevitably in my work in the church, the people I've learned the most from are the people who've been most different from me. And I've learned of God's richness in their lives.

SPEAKER_04 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:44

But I have to be willing to be a little uncomfortable to go there. Yeah. And I wonder if that's not a a little bit of the challenge, maybe, Sarah, that you brought up. I I may be stretching there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Also just the way God sees us.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Because uh I can think of like a number of times in my life when I was a weed.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Me too. Uh I can think of a number of times when you were when we were as a weed. Right now. Such a weed issue.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

But but God does not see uh me uh in the limited moment of my weediness, right? Right. Exactly. God sees the fullness of who you are. And so like I think in our encounters with others, uh, we have to bring to bear like we're trapped within time. Uh and so we just take people as they are in that moment. But like God, who is outside of time, yeah, uh, sees us in our entirety. Uh and we uh, as Kierhugard says, have to hope all things for that person because that's what God is doing. Yeah. And so like in that sense, I again, like I'm just kind of undercutting the sense of like it this is about bad people and good people.

SPEAKER_04 29:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Is like if it is, is it about bad people on this day? Is it about bad people in a couple years? Like you you this just like we can trouble this breeding so easily. And so I I think we have to like really question what is it pushing us toward? Um and and and I see it as this sense that God is just at work in all of us. And and and that work is um i it involves burning as well as shining like the sun.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

I I do think this is one of the gifts of using lectionary, because lectionary does invite us on a particular Sunday to look at a particular text, but in a larger picture. So where you were the week before is significant, and where you're gonna be next week or two weeks later is all significant, but it really invites us to both really honor the particularness of the passage, but not lose sight of where it is in the picture of the whole.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Yeah. Do you want a uh sermon title?

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Sure. Give it to me. I won't make any promises.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

All right, you ready? Yeah, you're all gonna burn.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

You're gonna that's true. You're all gonna burn. You're all bending it down.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

But you're all gonna be refined. Yeah, exactly. It's a refining burn. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

I'm with you. I followed that thread. This is why Will doesn't preach.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

There's there's other reasons.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

There are other reasons. No, I think and well, and I think that's helpful. I think for me, thinking through like what the traditional literalist interpretation, which I think you're right, has become so ingrained in Western Christianity and ingrained in me. Like I I mean, I've had to do a lot of work on biblical uh interpretation because there's this kind of underlying, oh, this is the right way to read the text. And if you're reading it a different way, then you're doing it wrong, or you're not being faithful. If you're asking questions, you're not being faithful. Whatever it is that can kind of become the water we swim in depending on where the pool is. Um yeah. But I mean, but I'm thinking about, and this happened last week as well. And I think someone said this in our in our Beakner summer study where we were talking about when you have the simplicity of black and white, dualist, you know, evil and good, then you don't need a relationship with the living God because you already know what your marching orders are, you know who's in, who's out, and you can just begin to sort them and do your own thing. And so, and so this I think is the the curiosity, the imagination, the uncertainty of it invites us into a relationship where we're like, oh, we can't know this stuff. You know who we can know? Jesus Christ. Exactly. And you like there's something about there's something about the relationship that that I think just parables in general invite us into, where he's not wanting us to just he's not just giving us a list of things to do or not to do, which which many people believe that's what the Bible is, right? A list of things to do or not. But we're struggling with this in summer Sunday school with the book of Genesis, where it's like these are not necessarily heroes that we need to emulate everything that they do and trick our brother and have an affair with whatever it is that all these characters are doing.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

It's it's relationship.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

I I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

I think I find comfort in that. Yeah. But I but I like but I mean I think as a pastor, I always want to have answers. Like I f there's a there's a pressure I feel to to know the right answer. Because I think there's a I mean d do you somehow.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

I I I mean I think I think I think being a pastor is an impossible job, right? Because we have to like the the Bible's gigantic, right? And it's like written over thousands, well hundreds of years, we'll say. Uh but but the thing I think that that I I always am trying to remember is like when we lock in the meaning of scripture, we we we like cordon ourselves off from the revelation of God.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

If God can truly speak through scripture, we need to be open to new interpretations all the time. Yeah. And so that that's not to say like there is no like ultimate truth, absolute truth. I there isn't. Christ is that truth, right? It's not our interpretation. But but I'm I'm saying, like, it if we just get into this stagnant, well, this is what it means, and we need to hold on to this, uh that that that's missing the point, right? God speaks, God is a living God, the Bible is a living word, and like I think we should always be open to God speaking into new times and new places and new ways.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Uh and so in that sense, like, I don't read the Bible like I did last year.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Things have changed. I've had new experiences. I had a child, like all these things, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:11

That'll change it. That'll change it.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

So yeah, life's all been downhill. I'm just kidding. Uh but but do you know what I'm saying? So like I think in that sense, like uh the the the interpretation we have is like uh is is something that like can be a new. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Ugh.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Sarah's giving me a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Well no, I'm just uh there's we are we're out of time soon. What let's make it.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Oh, that's convenient.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

No. Next week we'll talk about not finished till we're finished. No, but I think about that with like, so then you but you don't want to put too much emphasis on human experience, which is always changing. That's a great point. Right? And so if you're all if you're constantly saying, okay, God's word is speaking to me differently because of my experience, then are you saying that God is because then we don't we believe that God doesn't change? Do we believe that?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

But but I'm not speaking about God. I'm speaking about the way that God speaks to us through scripture.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Uh changes based on our experience.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah. I mean, uh don't don't you think God speaks to us differently than God speaks to folks 40, 50 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Totally. I still think that one over. I mean, yes, but the truth that God is speaking is the same. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

That's very true. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

I I mean, yes, but like I don't think of truth as like a concept. I think of truth as Christ as a person. And Christ is a person and we have relationships with persons. And so in that sense, I think that relationship is unchanging. Uh but like I think the way we understand, the way we relate, the way that the mission of the church, I think all these things are changing. Even tradition changes, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Right. Right. Like what was considered a traditional way of worshiping or traditional way of reading scripture is now completely different centuries later.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

And also like the temptation, I I mean, we're going off on a digression here, but like the temptation to like capture who Christ is is idol is is idolatry. And that's that's what happened with missionaries uh going out and thinking that Christ could only be, you know, like in a in a like an English cultural system, right? And that's been one of the beauties of global Christianity is that we see Christ in many, many different ways.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Uh and so like that again is a reminder to me to like not try to put boundaries around who Christ is or what Christ is or what truth is, even.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My favorite um explanation of scripture is the idea that this, this, the Bible, the scripture that we have, is the story of the relationship between God and God's people. And that even though we have an a last page of the Bible, that the story hasn't ended because God is still in relationship with God's people. Sure. In and that that is a living and growing and changing relationship. And I would tend toward the statement that God doesn't change, but what we know and understand about God can always be changing because we're never going to be finished. Although I leave the possibility that when the kingdom of heaven comes to fullness, maybe we'll know everything then. But that's not the goal anyway. The goal is to keep knowing God more fully, to keep knowing Christ more fully.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

And Gregory Anysis says even in the whatever's next, uh, we still are constantly growing toward God because God alone is God. God alone is God. And so there's just this dynamic movement toward God that never ends. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

We're never going to arrive.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I mean, not never, but because there's joy in the journey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Love it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Well, good luck, Steph.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

I'm excited. I'm excited about this passage.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

I'm good. Do you like it any better now, Sophie?

SPEAKER_05 39:25

A little bit.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

A little bit. A little bit.

SPEAKER_05 39:28

I think I think hearing the refiners fire helped me a lot. Um because I do think the temptation is someone that's different from me is bad and I'm good, right? Yeah. As culturally, we always pick somebody to a group to not like. It's easy to go there with this passage. And maybe that's why it's ears to hear, right? Because the challenge is to get beyond that, to see that we all have growing edges.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

I mean, I tell the children of this church regularly, I want you to bring your minds to scripture, your hearts to scripture, and your imagination. Because God is bigger and more than we can possibly understand.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:18

And this passage is a great reminder of that.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Yeah, I think so. And when we do those things, that's theology. And so it's not just the pastors that are practicing theology. It's the members of this congregation. When we engage around the word together, that is definitely doing theology together. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um Sarah, would you be willing to pray for us?

unknown 40:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

I just touched your shoulder. Yes, it got weird. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Let's pray. Lord Jesus, um, we give you thanks for the gift of your living word. And for your presence with us whenever we're wrestling with it. God, we thank you for community in which to wrestle with it. And we thank you for your grace that covers us um every time we enter into um into scripture. Lord, we uh we pray for Stephanie as she prepares this uh this Sunday to preach your holy word. We pray for all of us that you would give us ears to hear. It's in your name we pray.

unknown 41:25

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Amen.