Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, August 16th, 2026 | Matthew 15:21-28 | with Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Stephanie Boaz

Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, August 16th, 2026 | Matthew 15:21-28 | with Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Stephanie Boaz

Matthew 15:21-28

15:21Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon.

15:22Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon."

15:23But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, "Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us."

15:24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

15:25But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."

15:26He answered, "It is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs."

15:27She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

15:28Then Jesus answered her, "Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that moment.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Good morning. It's another day of talking the text. I'm Guy.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

I'm Stephanie. I'm Ashley. And I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

And Donovan is not here. And so Donovan has given us a challenging text. I've checked. He has not left us a sermon title, so we have no idea where he's going on this. Jeez. I'm a little concerned that I'll be preaching from the Book of Mormon because he is out in Utah teaching preaching this week. But no doubt whatever he does will be great. Ashley, would you read the text for us?

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Yeah. This is Matthew 15, verses 21 through 28. Hear the word of God. Our ears are open. Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting. My daughter is tormented by a demon. But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us. He answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but she came and knelt before him, saying, Lord, help me. He answered, It is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs. She said, Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table. Then Jesus answered her, Woman, great is your faith. Let it be done for you as you wish. And her daughter was healed instantly. And this too is the word of the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Thanks be to Jesus. Thanks be to God. All right. Sometimes called the Syrophoenician woman. What are we going to do with this text? Sarah, you're back from two weeks of vacation, so I know you're so fresh. You are fresh, and your synapses are uh firing on all.

SPEAKER_06 2:17

I I went on a trip with two small children. It's not a vacation. It's not a vacation. That's a trip.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Really?

SPEAKER_06 2:23

That's a trip.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

That's mounting an expedition.

SPEAKER_06 2:26

Um, it's interesting. So the Syrophoenician, I was looking, that's in Mark. So Mark has the story in Mark 7. So he calls her a Syrophoenician woman. And then Matthew is using this term Canaanite, which I mean, isn't that kind of like call I'm trying to think of a modern example, like calling someone like Canaanites were ancient history at that point, right? Like, wouldn't that be like calling someone of a Viking or a Visigoth?

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Like interesting.

SPEAKER_06 2:56

Right? Because they would have- I mean, I think Syrophoenician is more a contemporary for the first century. And then you have these very explicit, she was Matthew is saying she was Canaanite. She was other, she was the enemy of Israel, right? Um and so that's really that's really tricky for me. Um I'm realizing that my this do you have the Westminster Bible? No. Do you have yours? Oh. They have it has like a little um blurb on this, and I'm just like, oh, she's not just any foreigner, she's the arch enemy of Israel in the biblical tradition. And so I hadn't really considered it from that um from that perspective. Of course, Matthew coming from a very Judeocentric um context. Uh I don't know if Luke has this story. I don't think I don't think Luke has this story. Mark and Matthew. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Lots of emotions in this story. Big emotions. And I think one thing that always strikes me is how real scripture is about allowing for all the emotions, even uncomfortable ones, like not liking the ancient enemy.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

And and yet what are you going to do with that? I mean, John has Samaritan woman, uh uh geographically, Syrophoenician is even further north and further west. Uh Tyre and Sidon are on sort of the Lebanon coast.

SPEAKER_06 4:43

Um, and that that's part of it, right? Is that Jesus is move- I mean, again, if you look at your context, right before this, the Pharisees are asking Jesus, why did you break the commandment, the tradition of like washing their hands before they eat, right? So the leaders are very upset about breaking tradition, which wasn't necessarily even a scriptural command. It was just these are the ways that you maintain ceremonial cleanliness. And so we're seeing him being rejected by the Jewish leaders. And now here he is in Gentile land. And someone who is not even of the tribe is noticing, is naming him again, son of David. Like she knows. She's calling him, you know, Matthew 1, the whole genealogy. It's like he comes from David's line. So she names that, she knows that. And yet she's outside the fold. Yeah. Like she's not one of the children, she's a dog. Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Well, I was sitting along that line, Jesus saying I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but yet he keeps moving further and further. Like he's in Gentile, like geographically. He's very in Gentile territory. So I that makes me. I think I just think this is a confusing passage. But wanting to say, like, no, I I call BS, right? Like you're you're further and further into Gentile territory.

SPEAKER_06 6:05

Calling BS on Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Well established. A little bit, right? Like, I don't think she called.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

In in many ways, that's what this woman does. Here's what you teach.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Yeah, just the statement I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That doesn't match. It doesn't match the movement of Jesus here, is is I guess what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

And that's what she's calling out. Right. She says, hey, this is what you teach.

unknown 6:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

This is I I know who you are. And um, you know, it begs the question, what's going on with Jesus right then? Um, I think it's interesting because this is about as far north as he ever gets, and then turns back toward Jerusalem.

SPEAKER_06 6:56

And this is the only thing he does there.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:58

Verse 29, he goes back along the Sea of Galilee. Yeah. So he's going real north, he meets this one woman, has this strange interaction, and then is is returning to Galilee.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

Well, and then the feeding of the 4,000 happens too, doesn't it? Or is that all that's not a good thing? No, that's in Galilee. You're right. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

So I mean, that was one of the questions I was gonna ask. How does this tie with last week's passage of the feeding of the five thousand? And what was the role of the disciples there, and what's the role of them here? I think that's kind of an interesting piece.

SPEAKER_06 7:36

Yeah, because the disciples are the only thing they are really the role they're given is Jesus, just like send her away. Um she keeps shouting after us, like they're annoyed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Feels like they're just annoyed. As they often seem to be when other people come around, right?

SPEAKER_04 7:57

They're also taking a cue from Jesus, though, because she yells out to him and he does not respond. And so for them, Jesus isn't responding. This isn't someone we need to be hearing from anymore. So let's send her away. This is uncomfortable. It could even be uncomfortable, like, okay, you're not gonna talk to her. This is this is awkward. So send her away. Um but instead Jesus does speak to her and says something that's very unsettling to us. Um He uses an analogy, which he does all the time and doesn't mean them literally, but in this case it feels like an insult to us, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Woof. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't but I'm not so sure that it is an insult.

SPEAKER_06 8:52

Here's here's what here's what makes me I mean, this is part of dog. Um here's what's kind of interesting is I've I've read some common commentaries about this where it's that they are trying to explain. It's like, well, actually, dog, um, in the Greek, it's a diminutive term that's I mean, it could be a term of endearment. Like if it's a little dog, and little dogs, I mean, and and and I'm like, okay, I can see that maybe, maybe, but it feels like we're reaching to make this text more comfortable, more palatable. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's like, I would much rather Jesus say, she's just a sweet little dog. I mean, even that though, yeah, still not okay. Still not, still not okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

It doesn't deter her at all.

SPEAKER_06 9:40

Well, yeah, because she does not say, she does not push back, she does not go. I mean, I probably would have been like, you just call me a dog, peace out, right?

SPEAKER_04 9:49

Might have something to say.

SPEAKER_06 9:51

She responds, she agrees with him. Yeah, Lord. Yeah. I mean, in our this is this is what your people think of my people. But even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the master's table.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:03

So you're a master, you're the master, and I'm the dog. Fine. Let's agree on that premise. But you're a good master. Again, like trying to appeal to his character as she's seen it.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Um well, she's also there trying to fight for a daughter, right? So, like, I don't say what you want to say about me. Fine. But like, I'm not, I'm not this I can handle that. I need you to I need you to heal my my girl.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

She's very clear on what she wants from him, but she's also very clear that he is capable of doing that, which is what her witness before that.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

And of course, in Matthew, you know, the really even from the beginning, the magi show up. The world often gets who Jesus is more than the house of Israel does. Right. Right. So that's part of, I think, one of the things going on here.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Because in some ways this even parallels, Sarah. No, sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say, in some ways, this even parallels the passage before, because the Pharisees and Jesus are having a discourse, and discourse is part of their tradition. To argue back and forth, point and counterpoint, um, is part of their tradition. And so this woman stepping up and being willing to do that with Jesus, and Jesus staying with her, even if he did call her a dog, suggests some that Jesus is seeing her and hearing her words, not just dismissing her. This is not just some annoying woman who's all hysterical, and we we just need you to get out of here. Um she becomes someone that he is willing to listen to, and what he hears from her may even change him.

SPEAKER_06 11:50

Well, it feels like it does. I mean, it changes his mind, right?

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Yeah. But some people are really uncomfortable with that idea. Oh, yes. That Jesus might not be perfectly right about something in a moment and need to be sort of.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Well, that reminds me of the Old Testament, right? Is it um when Moses is saying God's like, I'm gonna get rid of all these people. Is it Moses or Abraham? Abraham says, Well, what about what about if there's this many good ones? And God's like, uh, fine. Right. And I mean, he just keeps going back to the city.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Negotiates down to 10. Yeah, and they still couldn't find ten good ones.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

But I mean, that I mean, that's God saying, like, this is what I'm doing. And then Moses, oh my gosh, Abraham changes his mind. You know, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:44

What are the other texts? I know, I know Psalm 67 is with this.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

The Genesis text is um Joseph's brothers, I think, selling him into slavery.

SPEAKER_04 12:55

Oh, that was last week. That was last week. Yeah, that was just last week. So it's right. I think we go to maybe like Genesis 45. Because I was just thinking in front of me. You know.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah, Genesis 45, 1 through 15. So maybe it's the revealing.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

It could be.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Of, you know, we don't do near as much on the Joseph story as we need to.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

We have fun with it on Sunday, didn't we?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Oh my lord, I love it.

SPEAKER_06 13:20

I did a whole series called From Pit to Palace. Oh, okay. But the congregation, I think, was done with Joseph by the time I was like, yeah, it's a long story, but it's so fascinated.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Well, way, way before any of you joined the staff, we did uh Joseph and the amazing technicolored dream coat as a choir fundraiser. Oh, fun. And it was very fun. I got to play Potiphar. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

So Genesis 45, we do have the revealing of Joseph reveals himself to his brothers, which is interesting in that he's in the other land.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

And his brothers come across the line seeking mercy. Right. And God has Joseph posted up there for the purpose of taking care of Israel. Right.

SPEAKER_06 14:16

Well, and then 67 is the what uh ironic Psalm. Ironic blessing.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Right, which is nothing ironic about that ironic blessing.

SPEAKER_06 14:27

May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face to shine upon us. And then verse two that your way may be known upon earth, your saving power among all nations. So this idea that the blessing is not just for the people of God, it is a means to an end of that all the earth will be blessed, all the people will know God, all the nations will sing and be glad. Um, so I think there is something in terms of just the the continuity between these lectionary texts of this opening up to other nations. Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

All the ends of the earth will see the power of God. I do not know that. It's um you know what a gift it is to sing the psalm every Sunday in this congregation. I love that about us.

unknown 15:17

I do too.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:19

That's good. I love that about us. That's a good statement.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Well, I wonder what Donovan will do with this. And, you know, I wonder what his title is gonna be.

SPEAKER_04 15:27

Maybe it could be Get It Girl.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Could be. I like it.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

Could be. Can't you hear Donovan? That's a great title for Donovan. I think we should submit it for consideration.

SPEAKER_06 15:40

His homiletic style where he'll like repeat words or he'll kind of have a a through line.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Tone prompt. It's kind of a tone poem, is what he does.

SPEAKER_06 15:48

Exactly. At the very end, I could hear him going get it, girl. And then just walking off the, you know, out of the pulpit. Mic drop.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

I'm gonna be honest, I don't I don't hear any of that, but that would be really fun if he did. If he did.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Planting the seeds. It's not a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

It wouldn't be the top of the list of my guesses, but I do think it should be put out there for him.

SPEAKER_06 16:09

I mean, I do think if we're thinking, I mean, we get so caught up in, you know, this is not the character of Jesus. This is not in the character of Jesus that we understand.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Like it does not feel like Yeah, because we forget that he's fully human and not just fully God, right?

SPEAKER_06 16:24

Do you think that's part of it, though? The the humanity of the Africa. Actually, we gotta see the humanity.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Dale Brunner used to say, and I I always love this, uh especially when he was teaching John, where do you see him blink? And that was his metaphor, where do you see Jesus' humanity? And he got that because uh Zephyrelli's film, I think it was, Jesus of Nazareth, opens with a close-up of the eyes of Jesus. Oh, wow. And they don't blink. He's just like staring, I don't know, a minute. And so I always like that um sort of shorthand version of how do we understand Jesus' humanity and where do we see him blink? And you know, if he's fully human, there are gonna be times where you know you're not loving everybody all the time.

SPEAKER_06 17:19

Aaron Ross Powell But wouldn't the wouldn't the pushback be, okay, but he's also f fully divine and he knows all things. Like, does he know that this woman is gonna keep, you know, pushing the envelope? Does he is he trying to teach us something by um allowing her to to be persistent? Be persist because the other thing is, I think for us, beyond what we see of Jesus, the persistence of the woman, like that'll preach, right? Like the the the intercession for the water.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, because it's on us at that point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:52

So like when we hear a no or when we hear we don't hear an answer, do we just slump our shoulders and turn away, or do we continue to tug at the master's robe?

SPEAKER_04 18:04

I think though, if I mean there really are on purpose, I think, are times when we see the humanity of Christ because we need to see the humanity of Christ. And if that can happen even in his teaching, and of course, he gets corrected quickly. That is not the way we often handle our humanity. We often have to be convinced, and especially now, it seems like we're so quick to just dig in and fight, not discourse, right, fight.

SPEAKER_06 18:45

Well, because we're offended.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

Because we're we're offended, and sometimes we don't even know why we're offended. Yeah, it happens so viscerally inside of us. Um, and so to have Jesus turn around, face this woman, speak to her, really listen to what she says and be changed by it, and essentially say that to her is a huge witness to us of what humanity can be. Because if in that moment he is we're seeing more of his divinity, but then maybe we can't relate to it and hear it call us out in this day and time right now.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

But I take so much from the Hebrews text great high priest, you know, who is like us in every respect yet without sin. Let us therefore boldly approach the throne of grace. But I mean if he's not fully human, yeah, yeah. It's gotta be I read a book on sabbatical a couple years ago called The Three Mile an Hour God. Y'all know that? And uh suggesting we walk at about a three mile an hour pace. But it uh it was encouraging us all to slow down, but I think it was also a reminder that Jesus walked three miles an hour. I mean, that the incarnation matters. And uh I think in this text uh we see Jesus blank, and that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

He's also, I mean, it's he's just had a really rough go, right? Like at least in Matthew, he's rejected in his hometown. And then John the Baptist is killed, which I thought Donovan did a really lovely job of kind of painting a picture of what that would have been like maybe for Jesus. That's really hard. Like, and both of those call into question I think him as a person being rejected in your at home, and then the person who kind of has been the the one to go before you and kind of pave the way is killed.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

And family. John the Baptist was based.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Right. I just I I just wonder what I wonder about his humanity in that.

unknown 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

It's just a it's a lot. It is a lot, yeah. But it is interesting that he he I like Stephanie. You're talking about he addresses the woman. You know, in the in the story of Feeding the 5,000, um, you know, when this happens, the the people are hungry, so the disciples say, send them away. Like they do here. And um, he says, Well, you'll no, y'all fix it, right? Like y'all, y'all find him some food. And here they say, you know, send her away. And not only does he not, he turns, he doesn't tell the disciples to fix it. Yeah, he engages her. And that that is different. And really important to remember how we cannot forget how radical was Jesus was in relationship to women.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Um and in this time, so even just that little nugget, yeah. If it had been any other leader, they probably would have had their servants, their their people, shoe her away. And it might have not been peaceful either. Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Um, so for him to not put that on the disciples and for him to engage her in conversation, not to try and make him make more out of it, but uh that that is important to know.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's this line of interpretation that engages me in the story. That other line of interpretation says Jesus is all tongue in cheek, he knows exactly what's going on. And that feels that doesn't feel like Jesus to me because if this is all tongue in cheek, then he's dragging her through this in her moment of pain. And that that doesn't feel as genuinely Jesus to me.

SPEAKER_05 23:14

Right. In an effort to try and make it more palatable, yeah. You you chip away at the true character of who Jesus is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Are you using this text, Sarah, as kickoff for Sunday school for adult formation this this Sunday? Is this your theme for you like to know?

SPEAKER_06 23:31

Would you like to uh that's a surprise?

SPEAKER_04 23:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 23:34

So come to the fellowship hall at 9 45.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

Again.

SPEAKER_06 23:38

There'll be dogs.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

Once again, get it, girl.

SPEAKER_06 23:41

Thank you. Maybe just hot dogs. Maybe hot dogs items.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Well, it'll be fun to see what Donovan does with this. Um let me close this out with prayer. Lord be with you. Thank you, Lord, for a chance again to wrestle with the text. Help us to hear what you'd have us hear. We thank you that texts are often challenging and shake us up and give us a surprise. Help us to see not only the glory but the gruesomeness of life reflected there. And so we thank you for a glimpse into Jesus' humanity and also a vision of how in our own humanness we can be more like him. Grant us your grace this day as we seek to serve you with glad hearts. For it's in Christ we pray. Amen.