Westminster Talking the Text
A Lectionary Podcast at Westminster Presbyterian Church
Westminster Talking the Text
Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, August 30th, 2026 | Romans 12:9-21 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Stephanie Boaz
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, August 30th, 2026 | Romans 12:9-21 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Stephanie Boaz
Romans 12:9-21
Live in harmony
12:9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil; hold fast to what is good;
12:10 Love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor.
12:11 Do not lag in zeal; be ardent in spirit; serve the Lord.
12:12 Rejoice in hope; be patient in afflictions, persevere in prayer.
12:13 Contribute to the needs of the saints; pursue hospitality to strangers.
12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep.
12:16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be arrogant, but associate with the lowly; do not claim to be wiser than you are.
12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.
12:18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord."
12:20 Instead, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink, for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads."
12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Discover more about the welcoming community at Westminster Presbyterian Church! Click HERE to visit our website and learn about our worship, missions, programs, and the wonderful people who make our church a vibrant place to grow in faith.
Welcome to another Talking the Text. I'm Donovan. I'm Guy.
SPEAKER_04I'm Stephanie. I'm Ashley. I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_02And we are here to look at Romans 12, 9 through 21. Even though Guy was prepared to do the Old Testament because I told him incorrectly last week. He's very happy about it. Delighted. He's delighted. So we're happy for God.
SPEAKER_04It'll be fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the calling of Moses, right?
SPEAKER_04God's only going to talk about Exodus.
SPEAKER_01Jesus, the revealing of God's name to Moses.
SPEAKER_04Do you know what this reminds me of? Exodus. God's only going to talk about Exodus this morning.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Well, let's pray for this whole thing. Let's pray. Only God, we give you thanks and praise for a word, no matter where it is, that is from you. And we pray that uh your spirit be with us as we um hear it and uh as we talk about it and uh as we live it out. So we ask all this in your name. Amen. All right, so Romans 12, which is in we read this even last week, but you've got to be overcellus you wanted to get. I know, but I love this. Okay, Romans uh 12, 9. Let love be genuine, hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good, love one another with mutual affection, outdo one another in showing honor, do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord, rejoice in hope, be patient in affliction, persevere in prayer, contribute to the needs of the saints, pursue the hospitality to strangers, bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse them, rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep, live in harmony with one another, do not be arrogant, but associate with the lowly. Do not claim to be wiser than you are, do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. Instead, if your enemies are hungry, feed them. If you're if they are thirsty, give them something to drink. For by doing this you will be you will heap burning coals on their heads. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. The word of the Lord. All right.
SPEAKER_01Paul's getting a medlin. Yeah, you think? I mean, you told us on Sunday that the first eleven chapters is all the theology, and then uh twelve on is how to live this out. Right. It's putting us at a pretty high bar.
SPEAKER_02So does this how does this help one? You know, I think of uh uh Mike Spaulding. And uh he would have the fruit of the spirit, fruits of the spirit, fruit of the spruit of the spirit um on his refrigerator. And uh yeah. And uh he would go over that every day and bring Mary over to heaven if they got into a little but they'd go over to the refrigerator and they'd read that. You know? And I suppose in that way it helps.
SPEAKER_04Are these former are these members?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, my great one in the past.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he was a great guy. Um reminds me of a friend in seminary uh one of the first couple of weeks we were there, he gets a package in the mail, and it's from his college girlfriend. And she had taken a sheet cake and had written the fruit of the spirit and then cut it out like a jigsaw puzzle. So the verse fit together like a jigsaw puzzle in cookie form. And we're like, brother, you better lock this down. You need to marry that woman next week. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think the one thing, one of the goods that it does, forces it, it turns me away from myself. It it helps me look outward instead of just being perpetually navel gazing. So that I was talking to Jake. I I heard a podcast uh a couple of days ago, and the couple on it was very into astrology, and you know, um I mean, just so it was just it felt like such a different language. And so I was saying to Jake, you know, I mean, you know, God created stars. Why couldn't God teach us things from the stars? However, like like what sets us apart, right? Like what what's different about my faith than like this is a faith? And I do think that it's it's Jesus that turns us from ourselves to the other. Um because you know, they were talking about like meaning, finding meaning, and I'm like, well, we use our faith to to find meaning too. So we were just having a conversation and full and finally just thought, like, okay, but Jesus calls us to look our to the other. And I this this feels like that in a nutshell. Um and I need I need to be reminded of that often. Uh so I think this does a good job of that.
SPEAKER_02I think you know, Paul talks about I think he did it in the last section we read, um, that you know, you can't you can't come into the church bringing God because like you have the answer. You have to you have to find the answer in how others see God as well and live this out. And I think you know this this text feels very like Matthew, right? It's kind of like the Sermon on the Mountain, going out and feeding the hungry and helping the thirsty. And that is where you know we find Jesus. It's just the the theology is is in the doing.
SPEAKER_05I think it is it also is an overwhelming list.
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. If if you happen to be someone who is keeping score for yourself, and there are those out there who can feel completely overwhelmed by this because how can you do all of this at one time? And and just the reminder that it's a way of life. It's not intended to be an overwhelming list, it's just all listed there together. Um and it seems like that's important as well.
SPEAKER_02You know, he says, I appeal to you, therefore, brothers and sisters, on the basis of God's mercy. You know, that reminder of as we have received.
SPEAKER_03Yes, right?
SPEAKER_02Right. And you know, I do think that you know, negative stimuli we relax react to, but positive, we have a really hard time figuring out how to react, right? Except, you know, I don't know. I mean, I'm thinking about like the child and being, you know, parental love, that there's a immediate response to that love guy. You you had that, right? Don't look at me so curiously.
SPEAKER_01I I was thinking of the children and their glee and trying to get you into the dunk changes. Yeah, yeah, that was yeah, that's not right at all. Yeah. How did it feel to have a thousand children stand up on Sunday?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for yeah, children's sermons, you know, five kids up there, just being very kind. Yep, yeah. It's crazy. Uh but you know, you know, how do we react to God's mercy? You know, that's something that we just grace and gratitude, right? Yep. But how can we what do you have to do to remember that? So that the uh this other part comes more easily, right?
SPEAKER_00And I want to do this because well, some communities do a really good job of using guilt even with that, right? Even like the the guilt you should feel because of God's mercy, therefore you you you gotta turn that around and show it to others. I think we try to do it go a different approach, maybe, but what what is that approach?
SPEAKER_05And some people, whether they've been in a tradition that emphasizes guilt and shame, those things sneak in so quick and easy that it is so easy to look at a list like this and feel like there's no way. Um, but I think, Donovan, your point about because of God's mercy, here are the ways to live. And and I think because it comes from mercy, it can be shared with mercy, not as a list of things you have to do or else, but as a kind of a guide for the way of living.
SPEAKER_02A thing that I want to do, right? That yeah, that um you know, we get that you know, you order a meal and you get this, you know, I got a bottle of water at the game the other night, and it's like, you know, how much do I tip somebody for putting their hand in ice water and handing me a bottle, right? You know. But I tipped 20%. Yeah. There we go. I did 20%. But I did it kind of begrudgingly. Exactly. So but you know, I mean that's not how we should be doing any of this. Right?
SPEAKER_00That's a really good image.
SPEAKER_05And then the shoulds come in. I mean, look how easy the shoulds come in. Right. Should and shame start with the same two letters.
SPEAKER_03I just like that up for you. There we go.
SPEAKER_05Probably not because I've been saying it for a long time. But I mean, when we say should, if we pause, there may be some shame that lurks in there behind it. And that's something the church has been all too good at doing. Yes. And Christian people have been too good at doing. That's shameful. Thank you. Thank you, guy.
SPEAKER_00It's a great motivator.
SPEAKER_04You know what's always struck me in this, and it struck me again when you read it today, Donovan, of the the last part about, you know, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. Um, the message says, uh, if you see your enemy hungry, go buy that person lunch. Get him a drink if he's thirsty. Your generosity will surprise him with goodness. I prefer that to in doing this, you will keep burning coals on his head. Because that feels almost like, well, is your heart in the right place? Are we just doing this out of like responsibility? I mean, even the um, I mean, part of it's like, don't curse under your breath, you know, bless your enemies, don't curse them. But it it makes me think about the orientation of your he of your heart. Um, I think it's C. S. Lewis, a long time ago. I read something where he he talks about like when you're loving your neighbor, um, it's not about just sitting around trying your best to manufacture feelings of love. Like, okay, I'm gonna love this person. I'm gonna go in today to work, and I know that person's gonna get on my nerves, and I'm gonna just love them. I'm gonna love them. It's not about manufacturing the feeling, it's about acting as if you love them and then growing into that person. I love that. And so the idea of like, I'm going to give this person food, I'm gonna give this person a drink, I'm gonna bless this person, even if I don't feel like it in itself has transformative power. I mean, have you all felt that in your own lives? Like, I think there's something about, I mean, even just with my with my husband, which I mean, we we never argue because we're Christians. But um but if we ever have like a disagreement, it's not about like, you know, I'm not gonna punish him, you know, like I'm still gonna act like his wife, I'm gonna love him, I'm gonna, and then eventually there's reconciliation. But I don't know. I don't know if if Lewis would I think that was Lewis, but I think there's something there because we get so caught up in let me change my heart, let me sit down and um and figure out how to how to think differently or how to feel differently. And oftentimes you just gotta act differently and it it comes out.
SPEAKER_01That last verse, do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good, I think is a strong word in this season of our common life together. Um you talked last week in the sermon about anger and kind of menaces in the sound bites and kind of everything, and you know, we get whipped up. Um and, you know, pretty soon evil is okay is policy. And um and I so grateful that scripture constantly reminds us that there is yet another way. Right?
SPEAKER_02And if you can if you can demonize someone, then that you know, hey, you can do anything, right? Yeah. So if you see the evil, what you see is the evil, um, I think maybe you have to bring the community with you and then react to it when good. That's that's interesting.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the idea of community. Because there's strength when we do things together, there's strength when we hold each other up. Um I can't remember who said this. Um but it was basically coming to my mind disorganized good is no match for organized evil. And so yeah, which is rough, which makes me think, you know, we need to be in this together and and be purposeful. We can't do this by ourselves, and the evil around us isn't done by one being or one creature. There is planning in the evil as well, and we we together can match that and overcome that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think about um you know, there's an arch that's built in by the uh the arena in Rome. What's the wrong Colosseum that is shows the uh in the arch the taking all the stuff out of Israel. And they, you know, they took the Jews out of Israel and they made them build the colony, and they gouged out their eyes so that they wouldn't get scared to do the high stuff or whatever to I mean, just terrible stuff, and it's like, you know. I'm kind of like a you know, I love architecture and I love all the, you know, it's like, isn't this beautiful? Built on the backs of terrible, evil stuff, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's beautiful if you don't know about that. Right? It's beautiful if you choose to ignore all of that. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so, yeah, then life gets real complicated real quick.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So are you what's the little the line? I was looking in the bulletin, because the taste and see theme. So you had do not be conform to this world. Do you remember?
SPEAKER_02I do not.
SPEAKER_04Was it from Exodus, you think? No, I don't know who it was. But last week, you know, we we really honed in on the do not be conform to this world, but be transformed. Um so just in trying to think about our our theme and how this carries that how this carries that forward. Um This fits under that for sure. Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's just Paul expounding upon what he said earlier in the chapter.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04In many ways.
SPEAKER_02Do you have a title? No. Okay. It is Tuesday morning. I I was did I did think about a title uh kind of just the you know, this is just a list of things. You know, and what you know, is it a list? Or does, you know, does a list come out of it? You know, you fall in love and suddenly you have a list, right? I will love to be enjoying sorrow, plenty of wine, sickness and health. You know. You know, I'll show up, I'll, you know, I'll do all these things. So this is this is taking a single thing and making a list out of it.
SPEAKER_00Well, and clearly it's a list of things that are like are lasting, right? Like the these things, and if these things are lasting, it means like we don't have to make this stuff up. And it means other people have given us examples of these things, namely God, probably through the life of of Jesus. So I I still think we're stuck looking inward to like, well, then how do I, how do I or how do we do all these things? So it still ends up being about us, unless there's a well no, God has already, God has done these things. Where do we see examples of God doing these things? And how do we just choose to join in? That might be too simplistic, but I just worry that the subject of this continues to be us. And then how do we get it right? As opposed to like if we if we're not gonna use guilt and shame, like what are we gonna use? Well, like gratitude. Gratitude that like we don't have to make this stuff up. God is already at work in the world, right? Like there has already been a son sent to redeem the world. How then do we respond? Um, we were with a uh a children spiritual director, Lacey Finn Borgo, uh, is doing some work with Adam and his family spiritual direction grant. And she spoke a couple of times last week and she just was really lovely. But she said that when she works with kids, they do a lot of noticing where God is. And she just talks about how like kids are just so great, quick to notice where God is, which that's great. What I had never I never considered. Like, there's a second part for her. So after that question, after they have a conversation about that question, she asks really simply, like, how would you like to respond? I've never thought about asking anyone, much less a child. Like, it's like, where did you notice God's goodness? Yeah, goodness, beauty, and truth. I think are her three things. And they have a conversation, and then she just asks, like, how would you like to do it? How would you like to respond? And the response, I mean, it's either an art a piece of art or a prayer or a thank you. And that, like the simplicity of that has come, I can't stop thinking about it. So, what would it be to not just to notice, but then like, how would you like to respond? And not out of a sense of like shame or guilt, or you have to, like, but for some reason, God has invited us to be apart. That's silly, right? That we've even been invited to be a part. How would you like to respond? Uh Uh yeah, just that's great, Ashley. If if it's just about us, then it's just about us.
SPEAKER_04So I mean, even in the liturgy on Sunday, we, you know, it's we're s after the the word is proclaimed, we're responding. We're responding by giving of our offering. It's not just about us of like, okay, how much have I pledged? What do I need? It's like, oh, I've just heard the gospel message. What is right arising out of me? I want to give of my money, I want to give up my time, I want to give up my praise, I want to sing this hymn. Like, and then we want to be sent out to continue to serve. And so there's something even in that rhythm of like it has a it has a place when you're responding to God's grace.
SPEAKER_01Rhythm's gonna get you.
SPEAKER_04The rhythm is gonna get you.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, you know.
SPEAKER_02This this is this is me. But uh, you know, I wake up in the morning and I look at my calendar.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think this is how I'm going to respond. And I'm not happy about it. You know, it's like all this is all lined out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because Monday is the day you get to golf. Tuesday is not. You've got a podcast where it's closed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So this, you know, this is so I'm being asked to respond, right? And um and and when I see it all, I get I get into a kind of a what what do you call it? Uh existential crisis. Yeah. I was gonna say funk. Yeah, yeah. But not quant. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, but it's like, you know, this it should be, you know, all good, right? But it's like, uh, there's so many responses that I will need to do this week.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05You know, which I think a lot of people are experiencing that. Everybody has such busy lives, so many things going on, or a lot of people have that. And this list is long, but it also is filled with so many precious nuggets. And if you if somebody just thought about one part of that, of this whole list in a week, how much can that kind of change your life? Thinking about it as a response to God's goodness. Um, thinking about it, like Sarah said, as something that we do and grow into.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, and last last Sunday I had the story of the German couple on the way up to the top of the mountain, and and how much I enjoy end up enjoying just being with that time. And, you know, it's like, okay, I'm really there to go see the top. This is my checkoff list. And I didn't expect this, and this was more valuable than that. Oh, wow. So there's this, you know, that surprise by grace, which is uh, but you know, how do we uh get the guilt out of that kind of that guilt out of the response thing and and not you know?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's just weird. How do you get out of the way of yourself?
SPEAKER_00Well, I this might be too much of a hot take for a Tuesday morning, but I actually think that sometimes we get we say that we don't want to feel guilt, we don't want to feel shame. But how often do we substitute guilt and shame for action? So if I just feel guilty or if I just feel shameful about it, that counts. Yep. And I've done I feel about it. So is it actually we say we don't want guilt or shame, but that that that actually in some ways feels good because it kind of checks the box as opposed to like put that aside and just go do something. Or otherwise, let's just like not play the the guilt and shame game, right? Like let's just let's just name I'm not really gonna do anything about that and and and just be done with it. I'm not saying that just universally, right? But I really do think guilt and shame can become real comfortable because it that can be what we do. We feel guilt and shame as opposed to doing something uncomfortable or doing something, one little thing, like you said, off of off of the list of options.
SPEAKER_01When you were talking about um the German couple, it made me think of that old poem by uh CP Kavafe, Ithaca. Uh always in your mind keep Ithaca. To arrive there is your destiny, but do not hurry your trip in any way. Better that it lasts for many years, and you drop anchor in the island, an old man, rich with all you've gotten on the way, not expecting Ithaca to make you rich. Ithaca gave you this beautiful journey. Without her, you wouldn't have set upon your road, but now she has nothing left to give you. You know, that's that notion of it's not just the destination, what you get along the way. And uh, I've always loved that uh that notion about this Christian life. I mean, the right, the the this is uh, you know, Paul in 12 is okay, you had all of this theology. Now what does it matter? How are you living this out? Um, so you know, be transformed by the renewing of your minds, and then let love be genuine, hate what is evil. Um, you know, but we're not supposed to live by hate, so that's kind of an interesting there. But um, but there's a lot of guilt in all this, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01Because I don't I mean, I I love to hate my enemies.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I mean, don't do this, do this. Don't do, you know, are you doing this? Then do this. You know, so we are kind of responding out of Don't. Don't.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um instead of responding out of do.
SPEAKER_02Right. No, I mean, I think it's Yeah, but I think I mean I do think that once you, you know, start that step, then you realize why you do what you do rather than the guilt of what it is. Anyway.
SPEAKER_04Well, and it's a gift. I mean, if you think about Exodus, um later in Exodus when when when guy gets or guy, when God not guy. Oh my god, big difference there. God gives the Ten Commandments, it is there is free. I mean, this is a bar Bartian, right? Freedom and limitations. There's this is not to elicit guilt and be like, do this, this, and this and this. It's these are the ways for you to experience the fullness of life, the abundance of my love, that there is freedom within the limits and the directions, not a um an overbearing like shame of do and do not. And and I also love, I mean, this I'm gonna skip ahead to 13. Just I know. Well, I'm preaching on it in a week, and I've been looking at the next section and it talks about it gives another list, verse eight. Do not do this, do not steal, do not covet, blah, blah, blah. And then it says whatever other commandment there may be are summed up with the one rule, love your neighbor as yourself. So again, the simplicity, the greatest commandment, this idea of bringing it all under the umbrella of love. And so there, there's there's no shame in love. There's no room for it. In perfect, I mean, you know, yeah, imperfect love. So that's good. Um, anyway, that's just I had 13 on the mind. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02All right. No, you just got me on another tangent about steadfast love and what does that mean?
SPEAKER_04And well, you're not preaching on that tangent. I know. So stay in your lane. I'm gonna stay in my lane.
SPEAKER_01All right, never mind. Acid, acid, acid.
SPEAKER_02All right, she's got a nice prayer for us this morning.
unknownOh man.
SPEAKER_02Stephanie does. Stephanie does. All right. Stephanie's such a good prayer.
SPEAKER_00Stephanie is such a good prayer. Let's pray together. The Lord be with you.
SPEAKER_01And also with you, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_05Lord God, we come before you again so thankful for the opportunity to look into your word. We thank you for the challenges that you give to us, the reminders not to shame ourselves or shame each other, but instead to see each other washed in your mercy. Lord, we ask that you will help us to see this list as a grand opportunity, more than we feel it as a weight, as we fear we might not live up to the calling you've given us in this life. But instead, Lord, to know that every day is a new opportunity to know your love, to grow in your love, and to show it to others. Lord, we thank you for the opportunity to be your people and to do this together, because alone it really is too much. And when we're together, it reminds us that you have brought us together and that together we can live faithfully in your name. Lord, we ask that you will bless Donovan as he works on the message for Sunday. And we thank you, Lord, for this congregation and the ways that we seek to be faithful to you and to taste and see all of your goodness so that we can share it with others. In Jesus' name we pray.
SPEAKER_03Amen.