Westminster Talking the Text
A Lectionary Podcast at Westminster Presbyterian Church
Westminster Talking the Text
Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, September 13, 2026 | Romans 14:1-12 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, and Sarah Bird Kneff.
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Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, September 13, 2026 | Romans 14:1-12 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, and Sarah Bird Kneff.
Romans 14:1-12
14:1 Welcome those who are weak in faith but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions.
14:2 Some believe in eating anything, while the weak eat only vegetables.
14:3 Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat, for God has welcomed them.
14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on slaves of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
14:5 Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds.
14:6 Those who observe the day, observe it for the Lord. Also those who eat, eat for the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain for the Lord and give thanks to God.
14:7 For we do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves.
14:8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
14:12 So then, each one of us will be held accountable to God.
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Welcome to another talking the text, and I'm Donovan.
SPEAKER_00I'm Sarah. I'm Ashley.
SPEAKER_02Guy. That's all the enthusiasm we want this morning. You may need to restart. We're gonna go with it. We're gonna go with it. All right. We're in Romans still.
unknownStill.
SPEAKER_03Yay!
SPEAKER_02Yay!
SPEAKER_03Yay. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And it's Romans 14, and it's verses 1 through 12. 12. Thank you. And um let's have a word of prayer. Let's pray. Holy, loving, gracious God, uh, we give you thanks for a word this morning. Um, and it's a challenging word, so uh be with us in uh your spirit so that we might know more fully what you would have us learn and be and do. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
SPEAKER_03Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_02All right, Romans 14. Hear the word of God.
SPEAKER_03Our ears.
SPEAKER_02Welcome those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions. Some believe in eating anything, while the weak only vegetables. Those who eat must not despise those who abstain, and those who abstain must not pass judgment on those who eat, for God has welcomed them. Who are you to pass judgment on slaves of another? It is better, it is before their own Lord that they stand or fall, and they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand. Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. Those who observe the day observe it for the Lord, and those who eat eat for the Lord, since they give thanks to God, while those who abstain abstain for the Lord and give thanks to God. For we do not live to ourselves, and we do not die for ourselves. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, for it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God, so then each of us will be held accountable. Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of brother or sister. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who considers it unclean. The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God. All right. So what's your title? I have no idea.
SPEAKER_05It's Tuesday. What I did on my summer vacation. There you go.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh but certainly, you know, life in the church is full of conflict, right? No. Yeah. Really? Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05And uh Paul's reminding us get over yourselves. Right? Yeah. Don't don't focus on the small things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That we make our make our stuff and even our theology gods, right? Over against one another, right?
SPEAKER_01What is yours? So you read N RSV, you've closed your Bible. I think it said for verse one, it said opinions. Like do not judge based on opinions. I have NIV it says disputable matters.
SPEAKER_00Man says opinions. Opinions.
SPEAKER_05Opinions.
SPEAKER_01Um Peterson just those who don't see things the way you do. I think I think that's just the hard piece is what do we consider a disputable matter? What do we consider an opinion? And what do we consider, oh wow, this is the truth of the gospel. This is the word of the Lord. This is the principles, and we need to hold each other accountable. Like, I think that's the the piece that always feels like a rub to me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um But FYI vegetables is not one of them. Just like one of do not lose your faith over Brussels sprouts. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00My children would probably beg to differ, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like what you're eating does not that's an easy example.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, I think I think we live in a time, always have, right? But it feels, I think, really heightened by social media where people can feel really righteous for being really angry with someone who believes differently than they do about something. So then the question becomes what are the things that do divide us appropriately? And are there many, many, many more that that get in the way of that? I I've been wondering lately about the idea of like does it move us further towards loving God and neighbor?
SPEAKER_01And I think that's kind of the defining question.
SPEAKER_00I w I I'm wondering. And if if you come at something from a different angle than I do, but both move us in the direction of loving God and neighbor, like is could that be something maybe perhaps that's too simplistic, right? That then we can we can let that go. Right? You know, we can okay, you do that differently than me. And the ultimate outcome is loving God and neighbor. And and then do I then do I get then do I take a different approach if or we take a different approach?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean it's interesting to think of like Paul in Galatians, right? Where it's like you foolish Galatians, you know, why go mutilate yourself. Yeah, right. So there is something that he stands for in that particular thing that that's worth the battle. Yeah, that's right. But these seem like he's this is not a battle to die.
SPEAKER_05But I wonder if in this he's actually going after the people in Galatians who are demanding that folks become Jewish before they become Christians. And so he's reminding, but in a gentler voice, the folks in the Roman churches that those kind of divisions are not essential. Right.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_05So I see a continuity between the two.
SPEAKER_00That's helpful, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's just that sense of righteousness on something you believe to be true. But there are things that we should be righteous for, right?
SPEAKER_00I yeah.
SPEAKER_02But how do you be that how do you stay stake your faith without killing the other person with it? I guess.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right.
SPEAKER_02And I think um where did I hear, you know, someone was talking about instead of let's instead of talking about why we believe what we do, is I don't know. I mean, I I'm thinking about our speaker in Sunday school.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was just gonna say it sounds like you're about to quote him. I wrote it down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what did he write?
SPEAKER_00Uh oh yeah, Lee Camp.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I texted. Oh, you texted me. You texted Sarah, and I'm just gonna go back to the case. I said, that's good. Um I found it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh here you got it.
SPEAKER_00My my sense is it's kind of like how did not why do you why do you believe that? How did you come to believe about why? Yeah, right. Like that that opens up the humanity of a person. Also having to acknowledge some someone. Jake was and I were talking about someone talking about how we don't talk about sin enough. And I like really harp on it. And I was thinking on the way in, as someone who grew up in a faith community that really there was a lot of shame around that, I'm not gonna be, I'm gonna be much more likely to want to talk about like, oh my gosh, but the grace of God, how amazing is that? And so the idea that if you can ask someone, if I can if you could not berate someone, why don't you talk about sin enough? But how did you come to believe or live in such a way? That like getting it to the humanity of of human, of people feels like a really worthy cult.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think that's what's so lacking in our conversations, you know, it's you know, why, you know, why do you believe, you know, why do you have a gun, you know, why you know, or why do you not want to, you know, what is it that that would help the conversation so much?
SPEAKER_01Well, because it automatically puts you on the defensive. Right. Right. I mean, I yeah, uh it's like um defend your position. And so you're you're harping on principle, you're not talking about story or uh uh I'm looking at Peterson's translation again. It says, remember they have their own history to deal with, treat them gently, which kind of gets to this of like, that's really what's the yeah, what's the why behind it? Um which then humanizes the person with whom you disagree.
SPEAKER_05I I think too of Calvin's you know talking about what is a diaphora, right? What's not central? And there's a whole lot, it seems to me, that falls within that boundary. And the cultural aspects of all of this as well is so, you know, amazing to me. What is what is a cultural thing that we hold that somebody from a different culture would look and say, why is that even an issue?
SPEAKER_00Kind of thing. Are you willing to give an example?
SPEAKER_05Um Well, uh you know, again, uh I think about what it was like in Paul's time as he's moving out of the Judean culture into a wider Greco-Roman world, and having been raised in that Greco-Roman world and then moving to Jerusalem for studies and you know, encountering that and um that sort of tight cultural clarity of what it meant to be in Jerusalem and living in that really pretty homogenous culture and then breaking out of that as the early Christians. Um, again, when I when I've had the chance to to travel, I I remember, you know, being in Mozambique, and things that they eat are not things necessarily that I eat or frankly want to eat. And uh yet how do you fit into that culture as a way to affirm it, even though that's not yours? You know, we're so used to just being in the dominant culture and the thought here about folks uh who are coming into it from other things, you know, the what Paul had to deal with in 1 Corinthians, with you know, folks who are coming out of paganism into Christianity without having first gone through Judaism with its very prescribed uh family relationships and clarity around sexual boundaries and all of that. And and you know, it seems to me that there's a bit of liberation that comes from this text about being sensitive to what did Peterson say again? Uh that uh they have their own history.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_05I mean, we're all dealing with stuff. And uh you know, um so yeah, it's helpful.
SPEAKER_01It reminds me of my grandfather, you know, who served in a very different culture. Uh I mean mid-50s kind of like just the time, the time in that in that timing, in that culture of where was where was he serving? He was in uh West Virginia, Huntington, West Virginia. And uh and he never drank, not because he had any issues with it, but because he knew he and I remember him talking about this verse 13. I know it's not part of the reading, but you read it. So I'm sorry. Um therefore, let us not let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put the stumbling block, the obstacle.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And I just remember granddaddy being very intentional, like he wouldn't have a glass of wine at dinner. Um, if he if he and my grandmother were out at a restaurant because he knew that a lot of people in his church dealt with alcoholism and to see the past. And I and I just remember that being so interesting to me as a child. And then me just assuming, okay, well, then I can't drink if I'm gonna become a pastor. And and then, you know, the culture has kind of shifted, or where I'm where I have served in the past hasn't had that same dynamic. And but just the sensitivity of granddaddy towards his people, I thought was really um was really fascinating as it, even just as a kid.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00And that points to like his really thoughtful sensitivity. And then what you took from that was almost like a legalistic, like, well, then I cannot. And how often do we do that? We're like the really thoughtful uh in this community, in this place, this makes sense for my faith. And how often that gets translated to, well, then no one ever can, no matter where you are, no matter what the circumstance, right? And we over the years find ourselves in.
SPEAKER_01And then you don't even realize why you do what you did. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The narrative is completely the inst yeah, that's uh that happens a lot in churches.
SPEAKER_05Where it's the behavior is broken from the reason uh for doing it. Yeah. Right. I wonder if we could move on to uh verse seven. Um we do not live to ourselves and we do not die to ourselves. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. I've got a marginal note in my Bible. It's not it's an anthem, not a dirge. Um that the call is not to be petty. Um it's not always about you. But uh I I think that to me, we don't live to ourselves and we don't die to ourselves. We live to the Lord. And what does that what does that mean? Um how do we live ad maiorum dei glorium to the greater glory of God? Um with an awareness of that. And you know, I'm I'm now thinking of this text in light of Matthew's Sermons on the Mount, that it's not about the speck in my brother or sister's eyes, it's about the log in my own, that my issue is looking myself in the mirror, not looking at what other people are doing. Um and that that hopefully instead of building up some kind of self-righteousness, it's about self-questioning.
SPEAKER_02Uh um last week um my wife and I had a lovely time together in the um uh park looking at the Grand Tetons, and at night suddenly stars appeared. Lots and lots of stars. And you know, it just makes you feel small in the size of the scope of what's out there. Right. And I think we forget about the size of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and how encompassing that is. And that if we live, we live to the Lord, if we die, you know. This is what's you know, you can't escape it. It's not an individual thing, it's a corporate thing. Right. So why are we squabbling over the little stuff, right? In in the cause for righteousness, you know. And and I think the more that we you know sit under the stars of the vast grace of Jesus Christ, I think the better we will be as human beings, right? I mean, suddenly the small stuff doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01It reminds me of granddaddy again. No, this is what he and my dad do for baptismal liturgy. Um Living, living, living, live thou unto him. Dying, die thou unto him. Whether living or dying, be thou the Lord's, both now and forevermore. Oh man, we're not a video. Um, listeners, I'm I'm glopping or rocking the baby, shaking the baby. Dad does shake the baby very um uh very aggressively. Anyway, which I and I remember being like, I don't really love that. For like you're talking to a baby about dying? Like when he did it for grace, I was like, okay, you do you, you know. Um but this idea, again, we bel like the the final part, we belong to the Lord. We are the Lord's. We belong, we are included under the grace, the canopy of stars of God's grace. And so that before, again, with the infant baptism, before that baby can do anything to earn God's grace, before that baby can um can ascribe to legalism or not ascribe to legalism, whatever it is, the baby belongs to the Lord. And then this verse is also used in um in memorial services, in funerals, right? Like this idea that at the beginning of life and at the end of life, we belong to the Lord. Um and that is a defining that's that defines us more than anything we we do in this life. Um So when you were talking about like the death and the resurrection and the grace, yeah, that being something that we enter into. We don't try to strive for or live out or or earn. We just are.
SPEAKER_05In another church that I served, uh, we had um we used a baptismal blessing for the children that came out of the excuse me, French Reform church. Right. I love this. Little child, for you, Jesus Christ has come. He has fought, he has suffered. For you, he's entered the shadow of Gethsemane and the horror of Calvary. For you, he uttered the cry, it is finished. For you, he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and there he intercedes. For you, little child, even though you do not know any of this yet, but we will continue to tell you this good news until it becomes your own.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's what I say when I do baptisms. I don't use this anymore. I'll say, yeah, we continue to tell you the good news until you receive it as your own. I love that.
SPEAKER_02That's beautiful. Yeah, and it's you know, the receiving the the the you know, the knowledge of how great it is. Um, if we could dwell on that first. Uh first thing in the morning, maybe. You know, maybe that would help us with the small stuff. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it it's yeah, I'm tracking with you, Jonathan. Uh but what if we started with awe? Right. And just like just so much awe at what God has done. First and foremost for me, right? Because that puts me in a position of humility. But just the awe. If if we could be grounded in that, what what would that do for us? I was reading something, I'm getting ready for something, and Sarah gave me some books to use, you know, Presbyterian questions and Presbyterian answers or whatever it is. They're talking about, you know, how do we how do we come to be known for for predestination as people who like really harp on that? And it kind of went into this is me very much paraphrasing, so you guys can correct me because I didn't grow up Presbyterian, but it's talking about how Calvin.
SPEAKER_02came to that because from the question of like how how um how could someone not receive the the the goodness of god and and want that and then finally coming to we're not we we can't we are not able ourselves to to grasp that so like how great is god that god chooses us so so that for him came out of this like unbelievable sense of aw like god would do that because we cannot for ourselves claim you know god and then just how warped that has become where you're in and you're out and how it becomes such a weapon right and I just I'm like oh poor Calvin he just was over there like oh my gosh poor Calvin I mean he's fine right but how again how things get distorted and how the difference between awe and gratitude versus starting from a posture of defense defensiveness yeah um yeah I'm getting ready to do a uh memorial service for someone who didn't want a memorial service but um you know the person you know obviously uh said I'm probably gonna lose this uh yeah he knew beforehand so um yeah but you know the desire to say thank you you know um and why why can't we have that same you know drive to say thank you right first before we go gratitude right and and I will say those words you know at the Columbarium every time you know if we live we live to the Lord if we die we die to the Lord whether we live or whether we die we are the Lord's and I love that because it's like you know it's all about grace.
SPEAKER_04There's an old Welsh hymn in Welsh and it was sung at virtually every funeral service I attended when I was a boy and it is no surprise in a minor key and it's right from scripture living or dying Lord I know not which is best to live to thee is life for me to die is endless rest.
SPEAKER_05And it's that Pauline you know I'm here and if I'm here I'm living to you and if not I'm in your presence and you know we can't escape. Aaron Ross Powell the one with whom we have to do. We are not creators ourselves we are creatures. And you know I think we don't get out enough to get that kind of perspective but under the stars you realize how small you are let's take a staff retreat play an Tetons.
SPEAKER_02Agreed thank you Donovan for such a great idea well I think our time is up for this podcast exactly we've got things we've got to go do you know you got to finish getting ready for a service for small stuff exactly we'll we'll reconsider later.
SPEAKER_00Sarah and I will plan it okay that'll be great.
SPEAKER_02That'll be great. All right well very good we'll see what happens on Sunday but uh the Lord be with you and also with you Oh holy and gracious loving God we give you thanks for the vastness of your love and the vastness of your grace help us to bathe in it at least for a moment so that we might shine with it ourselves. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen
