Westminster Talking the Text
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Westminster Talking the Text
Untitled EpisodeWestminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, September 20, 2026 | Matthew 20:1-16 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, and Stephanie Boaz.
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Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, September 20, 2026 | Matthew 20:1-16 | with Donovan Drake, Guy D. Griffith, Ashley Higgins, and Stephanie Boaz.
Matthew 20:1-16
The parable of the vineyard workers
20:1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
20:2After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
20:3When he went out about nine o'clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
20:4and he said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went.
20:5When he went out again about noon and about three o'clock, he did the same.
20:6And about five o'clock he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, 'Why are you standing here idle all day?'
20:7They said to him, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard.'
20:8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.'
20:9When those hired about five o'clock came, each of them received a denarius.
20:10Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
20:11And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner,
20:12saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.'
20:13But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
20:14Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you.
20:15Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
20:16So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
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Welcome to another Talking the Text. I'm Donovan. I'm Guy.
SPEAKER_04I'm Stephanie. I'm Ashley.
SPEAKER_03And this morning we are in the Gospel of Matthew. A little bit of a break from the Pauline stuff.
SPEAKER_01Is that anything like in the Gata Davida?
SPEAKER_03Just if you can hum a few bars, we'll find out. I could probably be. All right. Matthew 20, and it is a familiar text, I think, to many. And it starts at verse 1 and ends at verse 16. So let's have a word of prayer. Holy God, for this day you have made, we give you thanks and praise. And we are grateful for this word that we have. And grateful for those around the table and those who are listening. May we, when we hear this word, may your spirit work upon us, so that uh the words we say might uh give you glory and that we might work for your kingdom. In Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen.
SPEAKER_03All right. Matthew 20. For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. When he went out about nine o'clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever whatever is right. So they went. When he went out again about noon and about three o'clock, he did the same, and about five o'clock he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, Why are you standing here idle all day? They said to him, Because no one has hired us. He said to them, You also go into the vineyard. When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first. When those hired about five o'clock came, each of them received a denarius. Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, saying, These last worked only an hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat. But he replied to one of them, Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with the being for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to the last the same as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do whatever what I choose with what belongs to me, or are you envious because I am generous? So the last will be first, and the first will be last. The word of the Lord. All right. Well I think this is very unfair.
SPEAKER_04It's a good passage that makes people feel grumbly. Right?
SPEAKER_00What? I like it.
SPEAKER_01I know, I know, I know. It's probably one of the most questioned passages in my experience of the New Testament. You know, uh the Old Testament, the two questions I always get is, you know, why was God so mad to uh you know not let Pharaoh why did he harden Pharaoh's heart so much? He could have just, you know, let that go. And the other is not letting Moses get into the promised land because he just you know had a hissy fit and struck the rock with the stick. But in the New Testament, I find this is one of the texts that I get the most questions about.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oh yeah. Oh unfair, absolutely unfair.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Uh I work so hard. You know, we live in a meritocracy, right? We we sort of exactly, sort of, is the answer to that. But uh many of us think if we work hard and you know, we we deserve more. Um so like Donovan said, it's unfair. It's not fair. It's not fair.
SPEAKER_04I mean, and I know I'm sitting around the table with hard workers and I appreciate that, but I'm not sure anybody's working as hard as people who are changing beds at the Marriott, who are getting in early and making sure that all the eggs and the bacon are ready to go out the door as soon as people who are so important that they need their stuff super fast can get going. Yeah, but the parable would apply to them as well, right? Of course, of course. But that's what I mean. It's not just about working hard. I mean, I'm talking about that's a critique of us. Yeah, yeah. You know, people are working hard, but they may not be getting the same pay. Um who who whose work is harder is, I think, a question aside from I've had to work with a guy for like 16 years.
SPEAKER_03It's a heck of a burden. It's a burden. I love it. I love it.
SPEAKER_00Arguably, though, you I mean, it like what you were talking kind of flips this on his head. The people who are working harder get paid less very often in our context.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? And like how if we want to talk about unfair.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I think that's true. And I think within the parable, though, there is equal pay happening. There is equal pay happening for the people who are working. The question is, did some deserve more than what they accepted? Or is really the question, do others deserve what I'm getting?
SPEAKER_00And it seems that for the ones who are grumbling, yeah. I think it's all summed up at the end of verse 15. Are you envious because I am generous?
SPEAKER_07Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00So it doesn't seem to be about the amount. It's more about the giver.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's it's a little bit of the prodigal son, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's good. I like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03All that I have is yours, you know, you've been with me all this time, all that kind of stuff. So um so if it comes back to this being about grace, you know, how much grace do you need?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Not much.
SPEAKER_01Well, and is this you know, often it's suggested that's this is told not unlike the prodigal son story that you know it's Jew and Gentile, right? Uh the Jews have followed the commandments and borne the burden of, you know, being God's people, and now these folks who are coming in, you know, haven't done that. And how fair is that? Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03Um, I think, you know, for Matthew, I s I think it's the early church, right? Right. It's like, you know, we've we put in this work, and you know, these new people want to change the color of the carpet. Well exactly. Who are they to who are they?
SPEAKER_00But if we're so grumbly about it, then we're putting ourselves in that same position, right? Of like so so righteous about the work that we've done. Yeah. And if it's not really about physical labor, if it's about something more in terms of our relationship with God and God's grace. This feels like a really good one to say, oh, who am I automatically stepping into the shoes of in the story? Is that the right right character for me, or do I need to rethink the shoes?
SPEAKER_01I got a call uh yesterday I talked to the pastor who is head of staff of the church that I started, um, which is celebrating its 40th anniversary this coming fall, and wanting me to do something to, you know, play that. And it made me think about all of those, you know, early days where we're slepping stuff over to a high school cafeteria and having to set it up every Sunday for the two years before we actually built the church. And then a um a friend reminded me that um uh her home church uh supported us a thousand a month for four years. And the uh the lead elder who sort of sold that had just died. And did I think the the church you know ought to remember that story? And I'm like, if I'm preaching stewardship, that's a story that needs to be told. And he needs to be celebrated and r remembered. So this morning I sent the obit to um to to the pastor of the Alpharetta Church uh to kind of celebrate that. And um I think about you know what it what it was, and I'm sure that there are people who do show up at that beautiful church now and think, oh, you know, it's it's all done. What do I have to do? Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So um, yeah, I mean I think it's about am I valued? You know, is my Is my effort worth. You know, I've got a history here. I've worked all day. I know a few things about this. And am I what was that about? Right. I mean, I you know did you see you know I I don't think it's about the pay. I just think it's about me.
SPEAKER_01Me. Yeah. I'm over here. What have you done for me? Right.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think it's also really easy to quickly suggest that those who came to work late were doing it because they were lazy too. I think that also can be an interpretation that some people come to, like they were standing around idle, that must mean they're lazy when their response is nobody's hired us yet.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_04And unemployment can be a reality. Sometimes people are unemployed, not because they're not trying hard enough. And for the owner of the vineyard to see them, to see that they need something and then give them what they need. And the fact that it matches someone who worked longer that day is um is not the vineyard owner's concern. The concern is give them what they need.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a tendency to go towards this parable to say, you know, it's kind of like choosing sides when you're kids. You know, it's like you want the best hitter, you want the best runner, you want, you know, and then you got what's left. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah. That was that parable like this where the strong and the great are chosen first and then let's or is it that everyone's taken at this time and everyone's taken at this time, and he just keeps checking to see who's who's showing up. I think that's probably the more likely. Although I do think when we are hiring laborers, there probably was a picking and choosing of people. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_04At least you could say that's probably true in most businesses. Most businesses, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It also doesn't say that people slowly trickled in all day, right? Like that they were being lazy in the morning or didn't get up.
SPEAKER_06Right. It doesn't say any.
SPEAKER_00Like didn't get up and go straight there. And were there too many, right? There wasn't enough work. But so you have all these people who still need work. It doesn't say that, you know, they slept in, were lazy and finally got there by noon or whatever. Sophie said she we were talking about this parable on Sunday, and um, she said she heard a sermon or a podcast that tried to kind of get into the story of the the workers who weren't hired in the morning. And this person said, uh, I can imagine that being very stressful for them. If you have a family and you're totally dependent on getting paid for your work for the day, you go to work and you don't get chosen. And then even when they did get picked, right? Like if you get picked at three o'clock, you're probably working so hard and still thinking, Well, I'm I'm only gonna get paid a tiny bit. Like, is that even enough to put food on the table? So then to at the end of the day be given a full day's pay. What would that have done, you know, um physically, but also, you know, in their hearts?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I will pay you whatever is right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Mine says just. Whatever's just.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so the first group gets a dinero and the s everybody else gets whatever's right.
SPEAKER_06Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Something wrong about that.
SPEAKER_01Well, and especially when you you pay the uh the last ones first.
SPEAKER_03And who talks about being the last first and the first last? That's I don't know what to said about.
SPEAKER_01I've heard somebody say something about that.
SPEAKER_00I love that little nugget. Because if you started with the people that had been there all day, they would have taken their money and gone. They wouldn't have been there to see the last people. Like it was so intentional.
SPEAKER_03Performative. Yeah. But if you did that, wouldn't it have all worked out better? It would have. Everybody would have been happy. Everybody would have been here.
SPEAKER_00I got no sympathy. I got no sympathy, man, yeah, for these people.
SPEAKER_02So what's wrong with the so you've got no sympathy, but if if you were there, how would it have made you feel?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think the point is to stir us up, but I don't think the point is the the work. The point is like God's grace and what is wrong with us that we get so worked up over this. Like, it's not about the details. And when we can't see the forest for the trees, like this is a story about God's grace. If I'm upset about this, I assume I am more worthy and better and deserve more of God's grace than somebody else. And that is completely antithetical to the entire gospel. I got no sympathy.
SPEAKER_01How comes Donovan and I feel like that a little bit? I mean, that seems to me being the human condition at this point. Because I am, you know, uh what was the term we were talking about before we started the podcast?
SPEAKER_00Totally depraved. Totally depraved.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. There we go. There we go. You know, hang out with some tulip people, and you're okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's an insight to people on air that we talk about total depravity when we're not on air. When we're not on air, exactly. Um yes.
SPEAKER_04Uh but whatever is right. I mean, that's what God is gonna give. Whatever is right. And this passage challenges us to consider how we treat each other and share with one another whatever is right, as shown to us by God, which is something we can't fully reach, but we can try.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I do think it has material implications, even though the story's not about the the material there.
SPEAKER_03So with the parable of the prodigal son, or this parable, yeah, it it's designed to tick off the person who's doing the good thing all the time.
SPEAKER_00I can see.
SPEAKER_03Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00Or who's been told that if you work hard enough, you get what you deserve. Well, I think so.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I don't know. Or you agree to work on the look, you just agreed to be, you know, on the farm, whatever it is. And you f follow the rules, or uh, you know, you just did all the things according to the way it's supposed to the contract, whatever, you know. These guys work according to the contract. So uh so we have a for those who live according to the contract, kind of a a framework for how the world should work.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And this doesn't work. Right. And how do we do that today? I mean, how do we look at, you know, the other, and this kind of goes back to last Sunday sermon in Philippians, where you look at the other person who has a poor theology, and you go, okay, I guess, you know, that person's serving the Lord as well. And I'm gonna let that poor, poor theology go, and I'm just gonna. Person's working in the vineyard, we live, we live for the Lord, we die, we die. We're all getting paid the same.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm.
unknownMm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04I mean, if there was true Christian community there, you would enter into some conversation that would cause both of you to have a stronger theology focused on who God is. Right. Because the one who is perceived to have not good theology is a child of God and has just as much to offer to the theological conversation. And the one who's judging the one has some growth that needs to happen too. And that Christian community pulls us together to learn and see God in each other, which shows us a fuller picture of who God is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it's got to be about the community because it can't be a story about the individual. Right.
SPEAKER_03Right. But the the theological conversations of our day are often both set on both sides being righteous. Right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. That's helpful. I think that's what we're trying to do differently here. Right. You know, here meaning Westminster. And I I mean, and I think it's worth calling it out and saying that's what we're doing, like, like with our taste in C, you know. But also, um, you know, just disengaging from the gridlock, disengaging from the you must be across a chasm from me. And instead just saying, we're here together to worship. And that means we have something in common, and that's God. And the more we focus on God, the more what we have in common grows. Um, going deeper into study together. I think it it's just so critical.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think the question, you know that I think we suffer from is this the vineyard we want to work in. Oh that tomorrow, if it shows up, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Oh. Yeah, this is a personnel manager's nightmare. Right.
SPEAKER_03Um Yeah, and and hey, if it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_04If it doesn't matter, then why am I part of this?
SPEAKER_03That's what we call the frozen chosen.
SPEAKER_05That's okay. Which is which is so why we get poor Calvin who paints himself into a corner of Democrats. That he can't even get out of, even though we change his theology a little bit later on. We still hold him to it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we were before we were on air, we were talking about um you know, theologies of you're not good enough versus theologies of hey, you're the greatest things in sliced bread and we love you. You know? And it's like, which vineyard have you been working in?
SPEAKER_01And uh and ultimately, what's your view of the vineyard owner, right? Right. In that I mean, in many respects, I think doctrine of God, what's our view of God is the most important of all theological concepts, you know, is is God gracious and merciful uh or do we anticipate God to be an unjust judge, right? You know, it's what what's our view of God and how does this expand our view? And then how is our response one of gratitude rather than one of, oh, okay, I I I'm already in. I don't have to work on that. Right. That becomes, you know, the thing. Are we cheap grace people, or do we respond with deep gratitude and live lives that would give God glory?
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus Yeah. I think early on in my ministry, you know, I kind of remember my grumpy days when early?
SPEAKER_07Sorry.
SPEAKER_01Keep going with that thought, Donovan. I'm sorry. You're fired from that vineyard again.
SPEAKER_07Again.
SPEAKER_05Thank goodness we're not in that vineyard. It's real complicated to get fired from the Trevor Burrus.
SPEAKER_01The nice thing is Donovan's only the manager of the vineyard.
SPEAKER_03He doesn't own the vineyard. I know the owner. Quite ahead. I'm thinking here.
SPEAKER_00All right. In your grumpy days.
SPEAKER_03In my grumpy days, you know, where the church would take what I thought would be my day off, you know, or and take it. And how frustrating, you know, I it would that would frustrate me. And then you know, the older I got, it was like, it's just a big time thing. And it's like you figure it out. But I just felt like no, this is my time, and you're taking it. And I didn't you know, what I did was I mean, I didn't I don't think I let that carry over into the work that I did, but it was like, huh, you know, I was really hoping to do this, you know?
SPEAKER_07Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03And you know, when the world doesn't work the way you want it to work, you know, do we get frustrated by that?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_03And I think that, you know, I think grace is you know, a little frustrating because you know you don't deserve it. You know. But my depravity isn't nearly as bad as guy's depravity.
SPEAKER_01That's an objective reality, subjective. I I I did come away last week after our podcast realizing we didn't touch on 9-11 at all in that, and you know, thinking about um the response of so many that day. You know, uh as some somebody reads a lot of military history, you think about the evacuation out of Dunkirk, and you know, the boats took maybe 300,000 out of Dunkirk. 750,000 got off Lower Manhattan because boats just went.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How do we capture those kind of moments of um you know, radical compassion um instead of thinking, oh no, this person has to be, you know, in this category. And um I grew up in a steel town where strikes were every three years there was a strike because of labor and management. And so there were lockouts. And I mean, I I remember pictures in the paper of people wanting to get in to get a job, and we're only going to take so many, so we keep the prices at a certain level, and uh how fundamentally different that kind of approach is to uh a God who wants to give us enough, and how do we in our own atavistic societal you know, pressure for more, when when do we say it's enough so that others can get some? You know, how how does it become more of a zero-sum game than a I've got mine and the heck with you?
SPEAKER_04Um I feel like your the the point about 9-11 is one of those moments that is such a glimpse of the kingdom. The a glimpse of we really can be there for each other. And it and that it changes so quickly away from that, and we're suddenly aware of who we're scared of, and we're suddenly aware of um who didn't do enough to take care of the people that day, and we're um suddenly aware of all that reminds us that this is there's still work in the vineyard for us to do. Um but those glimpses are so important, and we need to hold them before ourselves because when we can see the best of who we are and not so quickly forget it, I think that has to impact us deeply.
SPEAKER_03You know, what I think about is that you know, salvation, you know, of 9-11 is, you know, whether you didn't matter your politics, your color, your skin, your sex, whatever, you know, if you were needing to be saved at that moment by that person, that person would say, you know, that kind of purity of salvation is great. Um I think of Danielle Pott with uh Survivor's Guilt or he taught in the Philippines about the Good Samaritan and how in the Philippines you could never repay the person and you had to there was a sense of r repayment and you could never get there. And it was almost it's like you know, is is there a bit is that this parable flipped, in other words, is is um you know some people get the gift and want to repay it, and then the other people get the gift and haven't a clue that they've gotten the gift.
SPEAKER_01Right, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or or expect that somebody would give me the gift. Right. I deserve the gift. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And Donovan, you were talking about frustration. And I think sometimes we're too quick to recognize the significance and the power and the purpose that there is in frustration. Because frustration is a feeling that sometimes we try to hide, or sometimes we add embers to, so the fire burns hotter. When in reality, frustration is a sign in our bodies that something doesn't feel right. And it may be because somebody's doing something that isn't fair to you. It may be because I'm not being fair to the circumstance that I'm seeing. And so frustration, it could be a real spiritual gift to pay attention to those feelings. Because is it me that's being unjust in this moment and that's why I feel frustrated? Or is it someone else that's being unjust? And I need to see that so that I can work against that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my favorite line of scripture is how long must I put up with you perverse generation?
SPEAKER_07Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_03But I mean, to me, it was like the, you know, Jesus surely, you know, I have to believe that Jesus is a hundred percent human. Uh in because if he's got a little bit of God, it's just, it just doesn't work. And and don't get me wrong, I believe that Jesus is God and human, but in order to be, I mean, in order to be us, you know, he has to deal with our frustrations as well. Right?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you know, why why can't you get this?
SPEAKER_07Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_04And it's but it and it and it's the God in him that helps him to still have compassion on people. And the same is true for us. It's the God in us, God who is in us, not because we are God, but God who is in us that can help us see things differently.
SPEAKER_00I think the God in me is asleep because I didn't have very much compassion earlier.
SPEAKER_02And then the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_00We're waking up slowly this morning.
SPEAKER_03All right. So um it's uh interesting text.
SPEAKER_01Do we have a sermon titled Donovan?
SPEAKER_03Uh no, we don't. How about you're fired? No, you're hired.
SPEAKER_04You're hired.
SPEAKER_05Wrong one. Wrong one. It just makes me think of last week when you kept saying introduce you, introduce this person to the right people.
SPEAKER_04Because some of you are the wrong people, and they just kept saying there are things Donovan can say that nobody can say.
SPEAKER_07So excited. Well, that's true.
SPEAKER_01Short timer has short timer. That's right. The filter's off. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Who's got a prayer? Anybody? Anybody?
SPEAKER_04Uh I'll pray.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Stephanie.
unknownAll right.
SPEAKER_04Lord God, we thank you for this beautiful day. We thank you for a chance to gather around your word and to be inspired and challenged. Lord, we thank you for this vineyard that we're in, this world that is full of people that you love, full of people who are so different. Lord, we ask that you will help us to see those differences, not as a hindrance, but as your masterful work in this world. Lord, we thank you for this vineyard that is Westminster, that we get to be a part of this community. And I ask that you will hold us faithful as leaders and as a congregation to read your word, to be challenged by it, and to want to grow in what we read. Lord, this world is full of people that you love and who you desire to have enough. Help us to recognize that we always have more to share than we realize. Make us ready, Lord, to give part of what you've given to us to others so that they will know that you love them. Help us to work hard in this vineyard and to be thankful that we get to work hard for you. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.