Westminster Talking the Text
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Westminster Talking the Text
Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, October 4, 2026 | Philippians 3:4b-14 | with Donovan Drake, Ashley Higgins, Stephanie Boaz, and Sarah Bird Kneff
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Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, October 4, 2026 | Philippians 3:4b-14 | with Donovan Drake, Ashley Higgins, Stephanie Boaz, and Sarah Bird Kneff
Philippians 3:4b-14
To know Christ and his resurrection
3:4b If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more:
3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
3:7 Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ.
3:8 More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but one that comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith.
3:10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by becoming like him in his death,
3:11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to lay hold of that for which Christ has laid hold of me.
3:13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider that I have laid hold of it, but one thing I have laid hold of: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
3:14 I press on toward the goal, toward the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus.
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And welcome to another Talking the Text. And I'm Donovan.
SPEAKER_05I'm Ashley. I'm Stephanie. I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_01And here we are, back again in Philippians. It's another week. Another week, another week, another week, another week. But it's another text, and it's all good.
SPEAKER_05Like, where are you going with that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm just saying that our time is rolling onward. It is rolling by and by, and we older than we once was, and younger than we'll be. And that's not unusual.
SPEAKER_04And Sunday keeps coming.
SPEAKER_01There we go.
SPEAKER_05And Paul actually talks about this, Donovan. He talks about reaching forward, pressing ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. That's where I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_05That's why you were referencing.
SPEAKER_01All right. So let's have a word of prayer before we go into our scripture because we need it this morning. Oh, holy God, we give you thanks and praise for this beautiful day you have made, and we rejoice and we're glad in it. We pray that your spirit be with us now as we look to your word, um, be in our thoughts and in our words, and we ask all this in your son's name. Amen. Amen. All right, Philippians 3, and it is 4B 2, 14 through 14. Hear the word of God.
SPEAKER_03Our ears are of women.
SPEAKER_01If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews, as to the law, a Pharisee, as to zeal, a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law, blameless. Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as lost because of Christ. More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Jesus Christ, my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but one that has come through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his suffering by becoming like him in his death, if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or have reached the goal, but I press on to lay hold of that for which Christ has laid hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider that I have laid hold of it, but one thing I have laid hold of, forgetting what lies behind and straining toward to what lies ahead, I press onward toward the goal, toward the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. The word of the Lord. All right. Paul. Say Paul.
SPEAKER_04I keep I keep growing to like him more and more all the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it took me most of my life to lay Paul.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But now I do.
SPEAKER_05Well, I used to read that first section as like, oh my gosh, what a guy. He's so full of it. Like, I mean, not that men are more full of it than as the only man. Donovan is way outnumbered today.
SPEAKER_01No, but like I've already heard this.
SPEAKER_05I have more uh circumcised on the eighth day, member of the people of Israel, the tribe of Benjamin, which I just read this that Benjamin was the tribe, you know, Saul came out of Benjamin. Paul's Hebrew name was Saul, made that connection. Hebrew born of Hebrews, a Pharisee, zeal, persecute. Like I I used to read that.
SPEAKER_00Pardon? Blameless.
SPEAKER_05Um Right. And so I used to just think that was, you know, he's so full of it. And and yet what he where he goes with this and the reason he's even listing these things, I think. Yeah, I've grown to like Paul more as well.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I kind of want to. I mean, is it he calls it rubbish or dung as it is in the Greek. Uh but uh I mean, is it what what? Is the past really dumb I mean I wanted to push him on that kind of like going, aren't we a kind of a sum total of our histories?
SPEAKER_05Well, not as not the past, but just his accomplishments, his achievements, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know, but even that. I mean, kind of I'm I I would be giving away my sermon thoughts already, but we're on the edge of our seats.
SPEAKER_00I hurt.
SPEAKER_04We didn't make him hurt FYI. The hurting is not because it's eternal. It's physical pain from hard labor.
SPEAKER_01From hard labor from ethical. Done out of love. Yes. Yes. But I have sustained some emotional hurt already this morning.
SPEAKER_05Good. Good.
SPEAKER_01No, no.
SPEAKER_05Uh so you can't say because again, we're yeah, we nothing is wasted.
SPEAKER_01I mean, are your accomplishments I mean the things that lead to your accomplishments are all good, right? I mean, if they're good accomplishments.
SPEAKER_04I th I think they are, but again, at the same time, in the reform tradition, we do tend to push against.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We push against our goodness so that we can point to God's goodness. And so in this sense, I feel like Paul really falls into that because he's saying, Yeah, I've done all this great stuff. So I should have arrived by now. And yet I have not arrived at the fullness of what Christ is going to do in me. Um, and all of that doesn't matter. What matters is how much I lay my life down with Jesus, how much I follow him to the cross.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_04Not that the accomplishments are for naught. I mean, I still encourage my son, I still encourage my husband. Right. I still feel encouraged when people tell me I've done a good job. And yet at the end of the day, I do believe that none of that, anybody's goodness, is possible without God.
SPEAKER_05Well, and it's also it's a comparison too, right? Like if you if you stack up all of these points of, I mean, some of these are just things he was born into, right? Points of privilege. Right. And so it's privilege and accomplishments that have happened, that he's just born into this, and it's stacked up against the the joy of knowing Jesus Christ, and it all comes to naught because Jesus Christ is what like, yeah, I think that's the piece. Is that it, yes, it has a role in in bringing him to Christ. But then when it comes to actually knowing, and I love that too, that he says, knowing Christ, Jesus my Lord, verse six, and then verse 10, I want to know Christ. I don't want to know about Christ. I want to know Jesus. Like he has this, we don't really talk about a personal relationship with your Lord and Savior very much in our tradition, but like this is a personal knowing, this is a relationship he has with Jesus. And it is in and in then it is in comparison to all of those privileges and accomplishments that he counts it as loss, right?
SPEAKER_01Right. But knowing isn't faith. Knowing is knowing. So it's just knowing the goal. I mean, is the goal just coming to knowing. You know, that is that when you can rest when you go, oh, okay, I know it now. But until then it's faith. And to me it's that's why faith is more lovely than knowing, because it believes in something.
SPEAKER_05Well, it says it doesn't say he does he knows the answers. It says he knows Jesus.
SPEAKER_00But that's a very sp a very specific knowing about Christ, the power of his resurrection, sharing of his sufferings by becoming like him in his death. I'm sort of like, well, well, I don't know if I want to know.
SPEAKER_01But this is the same mind in you that is in Christ Jesus, right? I mean he's he's reflecting the hymn.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. He's getting rid of all that he could grasp, letting go, and then trying to die so that he can be raised. Which um that gets into kind of self self-flagellation. Well, it's like self self critique. Resurrec I mean if it's a good thing. I would rather to me, I think it is more beautiful, I think, to die in the hopes that the death is meaningful versus I die in order to be resurrected.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. No, I I hear what you're saying. Paul does use this goal language. Right. He does push on to the better thing. And and that is a tricky thing with Paul. I think, I think we can sort of step back and understand his spirit a little bit, but it doesn't change the fact that he's pushing on toward a goal, an achievement, even so, which I think is very human. Like we can't fully empty ourselves, no matter how hard we try. And and Jesus still cares. It's still like, look at you trying. I'm here for you. Good, good try.
SPEAKER_00He's also in a very different position than like I think probably just like the getting close to the end of his life, very likely, is very much on his mind. Yeah. So I can't, I just I feel like I can't relate to that level of reflection either, right? Like my life as a follower of Jesus, how that came to be in such a drastic way, you know, the power of only God to do that. I just think he's reflecting on so much in a very different way than that. I am not at all positioned. Well, none of us are positioned the way that he is to be reflecting on his life. So that feels a little bit hard to kind of like understand or relate to.
SPEAKER_04But our listeners, we have lots of listeners who are positioned like that.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think verse 10. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection.
SPEAKER_05Period. I love that.
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh, but I would you know, is the power of Christ's resurrection for Jesus or is it for us?
SPEAKER_04Oh, Jesus' power is always for us.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01So I like that thought versus uh, hey, I'm I'm in this for my own resurrection.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, that that giving your life is actually the gospel because God raises that.
SPEAKER_04Last week, total depravity came up, and this is again one of those moments where total depravity, I think, is helpful. Right. Because Paul, as much as he's trying, still can't have this thing ahead of him that he's working toward. Like, and it is a free gift. What Christ did in the resurrection is a free gift for us.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_04And um, and to me, there is something beautiful and hopeful in that. Sometimes total depravity is used to just push people down or say that we're not good. And of course, we're not God. But how beautiful that even though we can't even try perfectly, that the gift is there for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I think total depravity helps take the ego out of it. But I do think which is good for Paul.
SPEAKER_04Right?
SPEAKER_01But I wonder that you know, if you follow this path of suffering with Christ or because we think that giving ourselves away is the gospel. Is that a depraved thought?
SPEAKER_05That suffering for Christ itself is going to accomplish our salvation?
SPEAKER_01Well, he I would say is going to accomplish resurrection, which isn't a I've got my ticket stamped or my but but that God is glorified and that the gospel is good and this continues. And it's not about me, it's about all of us.
SPEAKER_03If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I have some inner uh-oh about the suffering language, the emptying of the self. I mean, we were just there, you know, last week, and the like we have a whole doctrine around this, right? Like the kinosis, God empty Jesus emptying himself. And I was reading some commentary, getting ready for the women's Bible study. Uh man, I just think the church has a a history of being really hurtful to certain groups of people. Uh, expectations of like women to to completely empty themselves for the service of other people, or like when we talk about motherhood, like complete denial of the self and emptying of the self. And I I guess I'm going back to chapter two, but this conversation about Jesus doing these things, when we get to the end of that, the hymn, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend on heaven and earth, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. I and I guess this is challenging Paul. And maybe it's I also think this is like a communal conversation that we've made this very individual. Like, how are you emptying yourself or like suffering for the gospel, as opposed to like, how are we communally kind of like lowering ourselves for the sake of service to others? But I and this might this might just be totally wrong, and I I can be told that I I'm not sure it's so prescriptive that Jesus, because Jesus did this, we are all individually supposed to automatically assume that. Number one, we can't because we're not Jesus, but I think it also really takes away from the like Jesus did this, the response is absolute worship and devotion. Like Jesus is the main character, God is the main character, and I think we really quickly make it about us and we become the main character. So I just have some little inner like, no, the we we're talking about what Jesus did, the response to that is worship and devotion and a life of service. I'm not sure it is complete. I'm not sure the call is to for all of us to to act like Paul.
SPEAKER_05But to worship and serve requires a certain humility and emptying. Right.
SPEAKER_00Totally. I think maybe I would just want to say um we've really twisted, I think, the scripture, particularly when we talk about motherhood, Christian motherhood. And we've made it very individual as opposed to collectively as communities of faith. How are we lowering ourselves to become servants?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I and and I and I hear what you're saying, definitely. I think um one thing to keep in mind is Paul is speaking to a church of people. And so that's important. He's not speaking to an individual, he's speaking to a community. Yes, I think we lose that. And Paul, Paul brings himself, he just does, and that's part of who Paul is. And we said earlier, I said earlier, it's taken me a long time to really begin to like Paul. Yeah. And that's because Paul got used for a long time in the church to set up fences, particularly for women, but not just women. Paul was used that way by those later in the church. Paul is the one that people raise up when they say that the three of us should not be preaching. Paul, in his writings and in his travels, works with more women than about any except Jesus, of course. Right, right, right. And so, and so there is this co-opting that has happened in the larger church that has left lots of room for pushing people down so that suffering can mean something different to one person than it does to another. Um, and I think that's important to always keep in mind. I think, I think, especially the perspective that you're coming from, I think is really important. I think from Paul's perspective, it's important to keep in mind that he is talking to a church of people. Yes. And he he refers to himself individually, but I don't know that he always means that. I mean, I guess I'm sort of asking that question out loud right now. Is he asking them individually or corporately? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01So let's uh if we go back to one nine, and this is my prayer that your love may overflow more and more with knowledge and full insight to help you determine what really matters, which is what he just decided. You know, this is all dung. So that in the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless, having produced the harvest of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ for the glory and praise of God. Yeah, I mean I think you know the question to me is like you know, Jesus, the gospel Jesus, doesn't you don't see Jesus really defending himself at all. And you know, in this culture, the one who doesn't defend himself could be abused. Right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And yet you know, our counsel is, you know, do not be abused, you know, do what you need to do in order to survive, right? Or live. And I've had my share of those situations in my life with other folks, and it's like, you know, that's nasty stuff. So uh so what is it, you know. What is it that we're reflecting, right? How do we know you're you're not living to be abused, you're living to die into love, right? Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which I heard. And you Ash, I mean, I think you know, the culture puts that abuse thing on, you know. It is laid it out for people of color and and women and all sorts of things. And it's like okay. And we've established hierarchies and all that.
SPEAKER_04Aaron Powell Culture plus church. Right. I mean, I think that's part of our responsibility is to call out how we as the church have gotten it wrong in the past, you know.
SPEAKER_01Which is just to me the opposite of what this says. Right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Say more about that.
SPEAKER_01That you know, I think the church quickly goes to hierarchy, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um which goes back to the laborers in the vineyard and all that kind of it's like I should be paid more, you know. Um and it's not about that. But that's how we are wired to get the trophies and the success and all that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't think the church. I mean, did Jesus have in mind, you know, bishops and saints and popes and pastors and you know, we took a lot of license. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05A lot of liberty.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05Well also because we're because we're human. Yeah. And like that's part of it is like we need s I mean, we think we need someone in charge, right? You have to like you have to have everything has to happen decently and in order. And this is someone has to be in charge. And but that we've kind of imposed our own structures on. Yeah. God didn't want kings.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was gonna say this is like this is like the story, right? Like Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We put a king and God said, all right, give us a king.
SPEAKER_00You're not good enough. Give us a king. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_05That didn't go well. And then lots of kings have been really hurtful. Right. And queens. But at least we've got two books we can read and learn from. Bible joke. Oh, you mean the kings? First and second kings. Yeah. Yeah. That was nice. Bible joke.
SPEAKER_01Bible joke.
SPEAKER_05Exactly.
SPEAKER_01That's what pastors tell around.
SPEAKER_05I'm sorry, I don't want to go on a tangent, but I'm just that what you just said about Jesus never defending himself.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_05Because I'm thinking about him in front of Pilate and like Pilate saying, What is truth? And I'm like, perfect evangelism opportunity here. You are in front of the, you know, like tell him. Tell him what truth is. And he doesn't say anything. And then I'm like, I don't, and and then I feel this pressure as a pastor and as a person of faith to like someone's gonna ask me what is truth, and I need to be able to articulate it. You know, like the I mean, I took a whole class on Christian apologetics in college. Like I learned how to tell you what it is, you know? So I don't know. It's just that's an I'd never really thought about it like that.
SPEAKER_01But um But that's to me, it's like the the total to empty yourself is to say, all right. You know, I think like you know, is it should we pay taxes to Caesar? Well, let's see. It's his you know, if that's if that's his thing, give it to him, you know. But it you don't doesn't matter to me, any you know uh those battles are not mine. But what is your battle?
SPEAKER_05What is your battle?
SPEAKER_01Right? Yeah, and it's the battle is right, living in love and grace and all that, and that ultimately gets you killed. The gospel gets you killed, and Paul is telling the Philippians, hey, you're in me, you're in this with me, right? Yeah, you're in this good news that gets you killed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which may feel far away for us, but for the Philippians, that's part of what was happening for them. They were being persecuted.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But why? To me, it's like, what is the threat of Jesus?
SPEAKER_00I I cannot stop thinking about that question. You asked that a couple weeks ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What is what is the threat of Jesus?
SPEAKER_05They're saying he is Lord and Savior. And everyone else is believing that the emperor is Lord and Savior, right? So, especially in Philippi, like a Roman colony, it's like everyone is apparently it was like a lot of retired Roman soldiers, like they have full allegiance to a human authority.
SPEAKER_04So if the people are ascribing to I think I think it's about what Jesus does in the hearts of people. I think that's what gets scary. This last week when we were um when we had the Exodus passage, um Pharaoh was actually very scared of the Egyptians, or not the Egyptians, of the Israelites, because they had this community and they kept growing and they kept coming together. And so pressing down on them harder was also a way to try to control them. Right. So something about their faith gave them strength. And I think that that's that's what people were seeing too in those who came around to follow Jesus. There was something about them that was different and threatening. And I think that's that's part of the picture. It's not just Jesus in and of himself standing and preaching from the planes, but but the message that he teaches, when it gets inside of people, it takes on a new power.
SPEAKER_05Which I think is why we get so fearful when the church and the powers that be the the worldly powers are in cahoots.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Is because it's like, I think when I think about myself, like I no one really thinks of me as a threat. I don't think. I mean, my mom my my daughter, Grace, of course, because I can take away dessert. But like But not Henry, he's his own man. Henry doesn't care. We call Henry the honey badger. Henry Honey Badger don't care.
SPEAKER_04I feel like I saw that Sunday. It was so cute.
SPEAKER_05Oh my gosh. Anyway, focus. But yeah, I mean, like, I'm not a threat. Like, am I not doing it right if people aren't seeing something in me that's making them nervous?
SPEAKER_01I'm nervous.
SPEAKER_05Do you know what I mean? Or if we're or if as a church it's like, oh yeah, that church is doing great stuff.
SPEAKER_04I think though, think back to how when slavery was still happening, one of the main ways that the people were suppressed was to not let them come together and worship. And those who were raised up as the pastors were often abused more significantly. And and so I mean, I think we can even see in our fairly recent history a time when the power of Christ in people was a threat to the powers that be.
SPEAKER_02So if you take that example, then um the threat is when good news because we know a truth that causes us to lose something.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And helps us to be focused on something that's bigger. So it's like the so we can endure.
SPEAKER_01Right. So it's like the rich young rule, it's like suddenly, hey, if you want this, you have to do this.
SPEAKER_00Lose something or sacrifice something. I think it affects our earthly status, right? Like the status systems that we set up as humans. I think when when that feels threatened, we get nervous or defensive.
SPEAKER_05But that's why I feel like I'm not doing it right then. If I'm not but do you know what I mean? Like if I'm if there are things that I'm just how am I living my life in a way that is aligning with the values of this culture? Because I'm not gonna rock the boat because I'm, you know, I'm not an Enneogram nine like some people, but I don't like conflict. And so, like, what is it uh come on over the dark side then? I will not be an eight.
SPEAKER_00Well, I do get to decide that.
unknownI don't care.
SPEAKER_05We'll bring Sophie in too. Um, but no, I mean, like when you're being self-aware of like, okay, what are the ways in which I am just kind of going along to get along? Should my life be a little bit more offensive to people?
SPEAKER_03That's the I think that's a fair question.
SPEAKER_05But not just in not just to be offensive for the sake of being offensive, but too. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00I think the question is in what ways am I just going along? Not why am I not offending anyone? Which is not what you're saying, but like I need to drop a QF bombs. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Well that's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_04For the love, please, please for the love.
SPEAKER_01Um, but you know, I think all my life I battled the you know, prophet versus shepherd.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05As a pastor.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know. And you know, prophet is, hey, I know the right answer, and you all aren't doing it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know. Um and a shepherd is like alongside. You know, so how do you one protects the institution and the other one tries to chop it off its knees, and it's like, okay. What's right? Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Look, I wish you all could see Ashley's face right now, listeners. Her brow is so deeply furrowed.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't think the prophet is I know the right answer. I think the prophet is here's what God has said. I like that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00It's not about it's not about me, right? Like I know the right answer. Here's what God has said, and here's how we collectively, right? Like the prophet's always in the community.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but who gets to determine the right prophet?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a question for the people, right? Don't you think? Who they choose to like choose as the prophet.
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess like the prophet, right? Yeah. Well, God has chosen me to be the prophet, folks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you all just need to sit down and listen.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Because I know the right answer.
SPEAKER_05But you're you, okay, specifically you who feel like you're a shepherd, do you think there are people in the congregation who could say Donovan speaks prophetically? He has not put himself up as a prophet per se, but in the humility of that, maybe you're able to prophesy?
SPEAKER_01Uh on occasion, but I would say that um, you know, I have not sacrificed myself for the institution.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_05And to define real quick, prophecy is not fortune telling. It's not telling what's going to happen. It's telling forth the truth into a space, right? So you're not like Right.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I think the I think this is what it's all about. I think it's is, you know, the church needs to give itself fully for the sake of the world. We don't do that.
SPEAKER_05No.
unknownYeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's not for a political candidate either, folks. Just so you know. Okay.
SPEAKER_00But have we partly missed the boat because we we assume it's about the individual, right? Like, so like the church has not given itself because uh over time and space and still and ways that we teach and preach perpetuate this idea that all of this is about you and me as individuals and what I do when I leave and how I do all the things my individual little life instead of hey, church.
SPEAKER_04I I think yeah, I think that is, and I think guy always talks about the horizontal, the vertical, I'm doing this the wrong way. The vertical and the horizontal that between God and me, and that's the personal relationship, but the horizontal of the cross is between me and thee, you know, the relationship with each other, and it takes both to make the cross.
SPEAKER_01And um and you got to get the horizontal before you even get the vertical.
SPEAKER_04I think that may be true.
SPEAKER_01But that's what John says.
SPEAKER_04Do you think you have to get the horizontal before the phone?
SPEAKER_01How can I love my how can I hate my brother and sister and love my God? I can't. I'd be a liar, right?
SPEAKER_04It's possible that in my mind the cross turns into a pinwheel because I'm not there. Because I'm not exactly sure you can get either one without the other. So there's always spinning the Holy Spirit's with us.
SPEAKER_01You know, to me, it's like if I don't have my neighbor, God becomes just a mirror image of me. And isn't that wonderful?
SPEAKER_05Isn't that wonderful? Isn't that wonderful? That's good stuff though. For you.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05Um, okay, real quick, I know we're coming to time, but I want to ask, because going back to what Ashley said and we circled back. So if this is not necessarily if this is more a call, if we're thinking about it as a call for the community, for the church gathered to empty itself in service, right? What does that even look like? Because yes, we've taken this as an individual, or oh, this per these people should empty themselves, or these people should be humble.
SPEAKER_01I think I'll get there in chapter four.
SPEAKER_05Institutional humility?
SPEAKER_04Also, I think this passage is less about the emptying and more about the you're looking in the wrong place. You're looking, you're looking at your accomplishments, the things that help you feel, or I that help me feel like I'm doing a good job. And Paul is saying, no, look to Christ and the cross.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I think he's saying this is what it's all about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I spent a good portion of my life missing that point.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05But forgetting what lies behind, training towards what lies ahead, I press on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's still time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's interesting. I like that. Jonathan, I really want to hear more about the loveliness of faith versus knowing. You said something, that's why.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, you know, knowing is if I know, then there's no doubt. And it's like, you know, but faith is standing outside the tomb going, I bet you this thing's gonna happen. You know. And I think that's a a lovelier thought than I know this is gonna happen.
SPEAKER_04Well, I just can't wait to hear that flushed out one day.
SPEAKER_05Not necessarily Sunday, or Sunday.
SPEAKER_01Sometime.
SPEAKER_05Are we in Philippians next week too? Or do we switch to Matthew?
SPEAKER_01I live one day. I live one week at a time. I live, I live only for today.
SPEAKER_05Oh, are we gonna do oh wow?
SPEAKER_01You all are special to me.
SPEAKER_05Rejoice in the Lord. Rejoice in the Lord always and again as baby.
SPEAKER_01I think we've uh move on now.
SPEAKER_00Sarah's filling the role of Guy and his singing in his absence.
SPEAKER_01Sarah, how would you like to close?
SPEAKER_05Could I sing the could I sing the little closing prayer? The Lord be with you. And also with you. Lord Jesus, we thank you that you are um you are Lord, you are Savior, and you are friend, um, that you come with us on this journey of faith. Um that you accompany us through the power of your Holy Spirit to wrestle with texts like these and to wrestle with them in community. We give you thanks for community for the ways we take that for granted. And we pray, oh God, that you would continue to um foster within us even just a little nugget of this conversation that may have stirred something. Lord, we pray for Donovan as he prepares for this Sunday. Um, and we ask, oh God, that you would continue to guide us as a church that we might be more faithful disciples to you. In Christ we pray.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Amen.