Westminster Talking the Text
A Lectionary Podcast at Westminster Presbyterian Church
Westminster Talking the Text
Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, October 11, 2026 | Philippians 4:1-9 | with Donovan Drake, Ashley Higgins, Stephanie Boaz, and Sarah Bird Kneff
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Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, October 11, 2026 | Philippians 4:1-9 | with Donovan Drake, Ashley Higgins, Stephanie Boaz, and Sarah Bird Kneff
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All right. Welcome to another Talking the Text. And I'm Donovan. I'm Stephanie.
SPEAKER_01I'm Ashley. I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_02And it is a good morning, isn't it, Sarah?
SPEAKER_01It is. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. And that makes it a very good morning.
SPEAKER_02It is very nice this morning. And we have a text from Paul again from Philippians, and it is the chapter four, verses one through nine.
SPEAKER_05Is this our last week in Paul? I mean in Philippians.
SPEAKER_02I believe it should be.
SPEAKER_05Aww.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. This is like one of my favorite verses. Areas. Anyway.
SPEAKER_05Verse areas.
SPEAKER_02Very verse areas. Textual.
SPEAKER_03Is that what?
SPEAKER_02Pericopedes.
SPEAKER_03Is that what they call it?
SPEAKER_02Pericopes. I didn't want to throw out pericopes early in the morning. All right. Let us pray. Holy God, we give you thanks and praise, for indeed this is the day that you have made. We rejoice and we are glad in it. And we pray your spirit be with us as we hear these words of Paul. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_02It says in verse 4, chapter 1, uh chapter 4, verse 1. Therefore, my brothers and sisters whom I love and long for, my joy and crown stand firm in the Lord in this way, my beloved. I urge you doia and I urge synctic to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you also, my loyal companion, help these women, for they have struggled beside me in the work of the gospel, together with Clement and the rest of my co-workers whose names are in the book of life. Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice. Let your gentleness be known to everyone. The Lord is near, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything be uh by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God, and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there's any excellence, and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. As for the things that you have learned and received and heard and noticed in me, do them, and the God of peace will be with you. The word of the Lord.
SPEAKER_03Thanks be to God.
SPEAKER_02All right. So I think those are lovely words towards the end. They are. Except for Syntica or Synth. Syntikey. Yes. Um. But right.
SPEAKER_05It does feel kind of misplaced. Not misplaced, but just UOD and Sintike.
SPEAKER_00Syntikey, yeah. Um some suggest that part of why the letter is being written is because these two women who have been really important leaders were having a disagreement about something. And so, you know, it may be that in the last chapter he's really saying to them, be of the same mind. Um and yeah.
SPEAKER_05I read somewhere that it was like these ladies must be very mature. Or Paul knew that they could handle this because they're literally being called out. Yes. You know, like if Epaphroditus is the messenger and he's bringing the letter and he's like, All right, I have word from Paul, and everyone gathers. And as for you, like and he names them by name. Like I don't know. I think it it maybe potentially says something about their ability to hear that could be hear constructive feedback. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01And the respect that Paul has for them. I think we often, often Paul's words can be used in a not so lovely way uh towards women. So the fact that and he names how much they've struggled with him.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And the rest of he calls them co-workers and well struggled beside him, yeah. Yeah, that yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a lot of respect for them.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00That's a good question. I mean, it was a it was a place that was really privileged. But that doesn't necessarily mean that people were drawn to this little church. Yeah. There would have been lots of options.
SPEAKER_02I had the gift of going to Greece with this church back in, I don't know, 2012 or 13. And Philippi was like one of my favorite places.
SPEAKER_04Really?
SPEAKER_02It was just kind of park-like. I mean, to me. Isn't lovely, lovely. You know? Uh I was like, well, yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_01Would they have and would they have when we say church, would they have obviously been meeting in homes, or was there a place? Do we know that?
SPEAKER_02I would think homes.
SPEAKER_01Um but he does address towards the beginning like the str struggling and some persecution, right? Right. I mean, that's why he's saying have the same mind as Christ Jesus. Like the unity is still set within the context of it wasn't easy or popular.
SPEAKER_00Maybe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's one of the interesting things is that historically, when the church has been persecuted, it grows. Right. And grows. Which is just amazing. I'm just looking in my notes over here to see if it says anything.
SPEAKER_02But does the growth is it because it's growing that it's persecuted? I mean. That it's more and more like Christ Jesus. And the more and more it gets like Christ Jesus, the more and more it persecute is persecuted. But there's something attractive in being like Christ Jesus, even though you're getting persecuted. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we talked a lot about that last week. And even you bringing up like the uh the Israelites growing in number, um, that as they grow, whether there's more of a threat.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it fits so closely alongside of what Paul is do is saying. Um, he's really pointing them to Christ. And and what's the phrase that that goes that he says all the time this week? In the Lord, stand firm in the Lord. He keeps pointing people back. And the thing about um when you're persecuted, you have to really stop and think about why do I believe this? And is it worth my life? And and so people really honing in on the power of Christ, I would imagine that that's something very alluring to people. Because when you have a lot of options around you, it's easy to just dabble here and there. And I feel like that's very current too. But when you find somebody who's really convicted of what they believe, there's something that is attractive about that.
SPEAKER_05Well, and speaking of attractiveness, I think that's what's so fast. The verse five, like, what should we be known by, or what does he want the church to be known by? It's not let your, I mean, I don't know what you would potentially let your conviction be known to everyone, or let your righteousness be known to everyone, or it's let your your gentleness, which I think um uh that that particular word is it doesn't imply sometimes. We we we pit it against strength, like gentle or strong, but I think there's strength in gentleness.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um of the most uh fearful people are the are the bullies in our world, right? Like they're bullying, they're they're moving their weight around because they're operating out of fear. Whereas there's a strength in being gentle. And for the church to be known by its gentleness, I I we don't talk about that a lot.
SPEAKER_01I also think sometimes opposition doesn't know what to do with gentleness, right? Like I think when there's a bully, they expect to be met with the same energy. And so when they're not, I think that really can throw a power, powers that be really off. Like, oh, it was gonna make sense for us to whatever the we use the word bully, just like to bully and then them like kind of come back at us, and then we can go even harder against them, but we don't know what to do with. I think when when the when that's not met like for like, you know, I think that can really throw off the powers that be like, oh, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_05I mean, it's the it's the nonviolence movement, like resistance in general, where it's like, you're not fighting back. Well, that feels weird.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know. I mean please say more.
SPEAKER_03Fight back.
SPEAKER_01Fight back, Donovan.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, uh I was thinking about my own being bullied like twice in my life, uh, one by a uh quite a bit older kid, um, which I mean there was no way I was gonna fight back. It was just Right. You know, and it, you know. Anyway, there was another kid who kind of was my age and you know, punched me a few times on the arm in shop class. We had shop class.
SPEAKER_00I did too.
SPEAKER_02And uh, you know, and then like the third time, you know, I had an older brother, so I knew how to fight. So uh I basically made him eat sawdust in shop class.
SPEAKER_04Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02Uh literally. Yeah. And he left me alone from that moment on, right? I mean, it was like, okay, so here's a language that he understands. And then my mind shifted to what do you do with Jews in World War II? Who got onto train cars and you know. So uh So I you know, I'm a total believer in nonviolence and gentleness and all that, but it's like, wow, you know, how much do you have to suffer before it makes a statement? I mean, I think Martin Luther King would say, you know, you you do this until people see you know the error of their ways, you know, that you're appealing to something in the human condition. But I don't think it happens right away, I guess is what I'm wondering.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Martin Luther King Jr. would agree with that. I mean, it took a l a lot before any changes were made.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I just you know, does gentleness work with everybody? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00That's a good question.
SPEAKER_05But is that but is that the question? Whether it works?
SPEAKER_02No, I mean I don't know. I mean, I think I'm looking at, you know, I do think that Jesus was pretty gentle going to the cross.
SPEAKER_01He didn't fight back.
SPEAKER_02Right. And and, you know, what takes us back, you know, is like you said, Ashley, you know, that you don't know what to do with it. We don't know what to do with the resurrection. Yeah, I don't think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's, you know, let your gentleness be known to everyone, the Lord is near. Is that the Lord is coming, or is it because you are letting your gentleness be known to everyone that the Lord is n is there, near? Right? Yeah. And is that gentleness the key to why the church becomes attractive to people to join in spite of the suffering? You know, that you get to that peace of God which surpasses all understanding that you know which is the life of Pi. I love that book. It's kind of like, you know, when you make your peace with a tiger, that's when that's when you find God. You know, that's that's when you get your peace. And the tiger, I think, is that thing that's trying to survive in in all of us. So I'll go home and read The Life of Pi.
SPEAKER_05Read that. And your Bibles.
SPEAKER_02And your Bibles, yes.
SPEAKER_05No, I mean, I think that's the Yeah, the the gentleness piece, I I mean, I I'm I'm thinking about it from Paul's perspective and and the persecution in the church, and you know, think about it from the civil rights movement. But like, what does that look like for us then? For these for us as a church who are not being violently persecuted in the same way that we are known by our gentleness. Because I would say that the church right now, whole Capital C church, is not known as a gentle place. And that there are people within the church who don't want to be known that way. Like that that that the assumption would be we need to be known by being right.
SPEAKER_01Well, that gentleness equals weak. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05Or that we need to win something right now. Right. So I just don't know what gentleness looks like, even just for us, like for Westminster. What would it be like for people in Nashville to be like, oh, that's a very gentle church.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe being kinder to the head of staff. We could start. Could start there.
SPEAKER_00As I laugh heartily.
SPEAKER_03Just kidding.
SPEAKER_00I tried to laugh maniacally. All right. And this ridiculously fast scrolling and quick looking for some guidance on gentleness in this verse. I'm finding um things like moderation, like an understanding of when it's okay to just let what you believe stand and show, even though there may be times when you do need to insist on what is right. You know, sort of a um carefully not always needing to say, this is what I believe, this is what I believe, and this is where you're wrong, but instead being able to stand for what you believe and then able to insist, which I think is a little closer to the nonviolence, because there is gentleness in that, in that they are not going to fight back. But there is an insisting on their personhood, on who they are as people by sitting there.
SPEAKER_01Um very intentional action. It's not a lack of conviction or action.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know, Jesus sets his face toward towards Jerusalem, which is uh nothing is going to get in his way to going to the cross. He's probably the least gentle when people try to persuade him not to do that, right? Get behind me saying that kind of thing. Um but you know when you know, when you make your decision in a sense to die for love, uh I guess that might be a very peaceful place to be, I suppose. I mean, uh I don't know if I've said it here, I've said it a lot of places, but it's like, you know, the people who I find to be most genuine and open are those people who know that they're soon to die.
SPEAKER_04Right?
SPEAKER_02I mean it's like everything becomes open and and the the words are heightened in terms of sincerity and I mean it's just it's really amazing, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's like I think that's what Christians are supposed to be, you know, people who do not fear the death. And so you know, here we are, we're speaking this way, we're doing these things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that and that was what I was gonna kind of you know, when Paul says you know, whatever is pure, pleasing, commendable, excellent, and you know, all those kind of that list of things. You know, there are people outside the church who can do those lists, right? And that's been you know, what distinguishes the church from the Rotary Club or, you know, or any other organization or any other f religion, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um you know, how does how does the Lord play into our actions?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think there also may be an element of how do we disagree? Um because there is this disagreement happening within the church. It doesn't seem to be huge and roaring like in Corinthian, in the Corinthian church, but how do we disagree? That still really honors the truth that we believe about God.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, I think you know what I feel sometimes, you know, is like part of the church wants to go this way and part of the church wants to go that way, right? And and you it's like, okay. You know, in Matthew's gospel, you can't go without the other person going with you. That the unity is as important as the being right. And I like that, so that's so that we're always in this kind of reconciliation. You know, how do we how do we do this? Yeah. And if you you know, if you can't get rid of your brother or sister, but you still have to move forward. Yeah. How do we do this?
SPEAKER_04How do you do that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that shapes then the way that we see verse eight, which you just mentioned, finally the beloved, whatever's true, honorable, just, pure, pleasing, commendable, any excellence, anything worthy of praise. Think about these things. Maybe, I mean, could it be that that's part of what separates us? Is that there could be many belief systems where you can read all of those and interpret them as beloved for me, true for me, honorable for me, just for me, pure for me. But to serve the God who put on flesh as Jesus was died and then beat that, that turns us out. It can't just be all about myself. So, you know, how does that change the idea of thinking about whatever is true? Maybe not just what I would love to be true that benefits me, whatever is just, not in a way that just serves me. Pleasing, not in a way that just serves myself. That feels like the work of the church. That what what does it look like to have unity and in that when we are gonna see things differently? And so to be able to turn from me and myself outward, right? I think that I think that's what Jesus changes everything in that regard, and that feels like uh the work of the church.
SPEAKER_00Like the assumption is we're gonna disagree. I think that needs to be part of our assumption because we are people who are coming together in Christ. And we bring our whole selves. Yes. And each and every one of us brings our whole selves. And so the assumption is we're going to disagree. And what are we going to do in those situations? Can we still see each other as full people? I mean, you're talking about, you were talking about your bully, and you finally were able to speak the language he could understand. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05And um it was in his mouth.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah. I softened it a little. I gentled it a little bit.
SPEAKER_02It's all very clear to me.
SPEAKER_00Yes. But I think sometimes in a bully situation, people don't there's not fully recognizing the person the other person. And also in that bully, there's something going on with them. Oh, right.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah. Um.
SPEAKER_00So finding the way to speak to each other, not necessarily what saw does.
SPEAKER_01Well, and for the rest of us to to notice too, who I mean, you have this, you know, you try to avoid a savior complex, right? But like who is not seeing you, right? And and standing up for you. And I I don't know. It makes me think about some of what's going on right now in the news, just this idea that sometimes we have to be willing to speak.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And that also takes a sacrifice of the self to stand up for someone else. And so thinking corporately, then, you know, you were talking about like um, you know, civil rights and slavery. It isn't just about our ourselves either, again, right? At what point are we called and how have we lived up to that, and how have we not to speak truth, whatever is true, to the power that is negatively affecting someone that isn't me even.
SPEAKER_05Y'all, we jumped from gentleness to verse eight. I just that verse six, uh don't be anxious about anything. I'm like, who are you kidding, Paul? Who are you?
SPEAKER_02You got some anxiety going on?
SPEAKER_05I have a lot of anxiety.
SPEAKER_01But it sounds so good and it looks so good on a pillow. It does look good on a pillow.
SPEAKER_05And the hard thing is, because I was listening to this in the car on the way here, which and I'm dealing with like housing stuff, and I was just like, okay, don't be anxious about it. Great. But okay, and it does he doesn't just leave it there. He says, Okay, I'm gonna pray, supplication, I'm gonna make a request, I'm gonna say thank you, and I'm gonna tell it to God. That's the those are the steps. And when I do those steps, the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard my heart. Well, I have news for y'all. I'm very anxious still. So, where did the peace go? Like, I don't know. I think that's just like it's interesting because when I pray, like pastorally, when I'm sitting with someone who's suffering or grieving, or I'll often reference this of like, because I feel kind of absurd praying for peace, right? I'm like, so I'll say, and God, please give, give to us of your peace a peace that doesn't make sense in this moment, a peace that surpasses all understanding. Because it doesn't make sense that in the midst of everything else that's happening, we should be at peace. But I think this feels a little prescriptive in a way that makes me feel like I'm not doing enough to ease my own anxiety. Ooh, I heard that. I know. I can't eat, I know. I'm not, oh, I'm not reformed enough. I can't ease my own anxiety, but to be open to God. It's easing, you know. I just, there's something there about surrender that I'm just so bad at. So if y'all who are better at it could tell me how to do it.
SPEAKER_02No, but I think I I I think that's the, you know, our anxieties are challenges to s to live. And what Paul is is like going, okay, we're gonna die. So I mean, truly. I mean, it's gonna be we're gonna die. So this isn't gonna be anything to worry about. Right. And that's what I mean by people who are dying. It's like, oh God, they're so free, you know.
SPEAKER_01Um which Paul was likely towards closer to right. He was likely more like that person that you're talking about than we are. This is much more on his mind, the reality.
SPEAKER_02I do think this is what is the key to the early church. I do think it's just I'm not gonna fear any of this stuff.
SPEAKER_05Because they thought it was imminent, too. I mean, they, you know, the Lord is near. There's like an eschatological.
SPEAKER_02But I don't think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05If you all could just see Donovan, his head is shaking so I'm sorry. This is good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I just don't I just think it's like, no, we're gonna show you all. We're gonna, you know, when when you when when you can wave a finger at the powers of being and go, okay, if we kill if you want to kill it, knock yourself out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It is hard for me to believe that this is totally just me, my hermeneutic because of stage of life. It's hard for me to believe that that would be the thought of parents about their children. What do you mean? That you would have families in this context who would have the attitude of I'm not gonna be afraid. Do whatever you need to do to us. You have no power. Yeah, when it comes to thinking about my babies.
SPEAKER_02Right? I'm not saying you're wrong though. No, no, I mean I just think, I mean, it's like maybe being in the Ukraine right now, or you know, it's like okay, I'm just gonna be the best person I'm gonna be. And when my time's up, my time's up. I don't know. Uh or what's the film where the guy rides an A-bomb like a horse? Because it's like the set film. I can't remember. It's like he jumps on the A-bomb and goes, you know.
SPEAKER_05It's like, okay, we really need video. We'll put in the source notes. The show notes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I can, I can, I can, I know people are gonna tell me all week.
SPEAKER_05We know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think I mean ultimately Paul is encouraging toward this, but is Paul expecting it? I was just trying to quick search for um the woman martyr who gets raised up sometimes. We don't have we don't have saints in our traditions. So I don't always keep up with this. But there was a woman who was um she was still nursing her child and she was going to be put to death, and she was very willing to do that. She nursed her child one last time and passed the child on, and nobody around her could understand that. And so maybe it's not so much that Paul is encouraging us to get to that point, like hurry up, you gotta be like that, so much as encouraging the church and encouraging us to remember what's most important and wait for wait for um God to be able to make us ready if and when that time comes. And maybe it changed. Well, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05No, I just it's just I think in our culture, again, we're just it feels so far removed from those experiences. Like first century martyrs. Um, I mean, I think there's and there's such a an emphasis on I mean, I I think this is gonna, I can make this connect. Hold on. There was like this video of Katie Kirk walking down the streets of New York and being like, people shouldn't ask a woman's age, but I'm proud and I'm 70 or something. I think it was an ad for some kind of skin cream, because then it shoots to her at her vanity looking 40, right? Because she can, because she can't, because she has money. And it's like, but there's like this, there is this idolatry of youth and vitality and living, where it's like the worst thing that could happen is to to die. So I so it and it and and honestly, for us in our in our contemporary culture in upper middle class West Nashville, where we're just like, no one's thinking, I mean, unless you are on death's doorstep, unless you are navigating a time of grief or illness with someone else, I don't think about dying. And these people were faced with it every day, which made their their faith and their life of faith and their obedience to God that more palpable, potent, acute, right? I mean, is it do you have to have that threat, that imminent threat to know? Again, going back to what you said about people on their deathbed. Like, how do I live that way when I feel like I'm gonna live forever?
SPEAKER_00But what if it's also little deaths every day? What is all what if it's also that it's like, I feel very strongly about the blue bows? Like, we'll bring up the blue and red bows again. I feel very strongly about the blue bows, and it super ticks me off that somebody just went behind all our backs and asked if we could have red bows. You know, like that's a great moment to like stop and go, woo, wait, the color of the bows is is really not why we're on earth. So dying, dying to self, dying to self-till deaths of and and beginning and and looking at our conflicts differently.
SPEAKER_05So, what does that do with anxiety then? Does that help me?
SPEAKER_00Anxiety has a life of its own.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think. Yeah, I don't know if the practice uh of it um I think the being changes the practice rather than the practice I don't know. I mean, if this becomes a chicken and egg thing for me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, we define this again. Being what?
SPEAKER_02So, you know, does uh you know, having the same mind in you that's in Christ Jesus then changes your practice versus okay, I'm gonna do the Jesus thing and hope that I get the same mind. Yeah, which is it. And I think to say that I'm going to go to the cross, in other words, to say I'm going to love the world.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes at the expense of myself.
SPEAKER_02At the expense of myself. Yeah. That I that I know that if I love this world like God loves this world, the world will kill me. Uh and then and then if you go into everything that comes your way, you confront it with gentleness, accept that thing that says don't do that. Which is your own temptation. That is a temptation is to to to survive. Um I th I don't know. I mean I think it's interesting to me because I think the older I get, the more I think about the discipline of the faith. And I think I just argued against what I was arguing before. Which is which is really weird to me, but it's like, you know what? Why are you getting so upset about this, right? Um you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, it's coming to, we're I can't believe it. I'm we're almost to the holidays where families come together and imagine if whatever it is that is coming between parents and their child or brothers and sisters, um, if that could be put down so that families could come together and really experience unity together. Like, could there, whatever it is that that is between people and keeping them from gathering, wouldn't that be a beautiful representation of faithfulness in unity and seeing each other as belonging to Christ and not seeing each other because we've made some different choices. What if churches didn't split into different denominations? I mean, we're so far from this, and yet we're still called to it. I mean, I think there is this, we're gonna get it wrong so much of the time. But if we if we keep hearing these words, we're gonna be guided to get it right other times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. To me, you know, is the gospel, I need you with me.
SPEAKER_00Ooh. You, as in who's a you everybody. Okay. Right? Well, if the you is Jesus, definitely. Yes, I think so also. Because we need you, Jesus, with us, we also need everybody else with us because it goes together. Yeah, I'm with you.
SPEAKER_02Oh, but I mean, I think Jesus is I need you. Yes. I need you, right? Right? Yes. And I need you to I need you I need you to get this whatever, however you want to get this, right? And I'm just gonna keep coming until you get the, you know, keep till you can just go, uh, you know. And if that is the mind of Jesus, how then, you know, that becomes job one up here.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02Uh which means you have to lose a bunch of stuff.
SPEAKER_05He pointed to his head and then he pounded on his heart. Yes, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01I think I'm pessimistic enough to think that we will not get that until Revelation 22.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can't do that.
SPEAKER_01Because here's here's where I kind of get stuck, and this could just be my eight-ness or whatever. I think that all sounds really lovely until the difference between my community and another community feels, which this requires some humility, right? But like if there's tangible hurt being done by another community that does not look like loving God and loving your neighbor, I don't know how I just we just fold in together, right? And and understand that our differences we are still held together by uh Christ. I that's where I get stuck.
SPEAKER_02And I'm and like I said, I'm you know, I'm built to beat up the bully. Okay. Nothing gives me more pleasure than doing that. I mean, it's just I love it. Uh anyway. Uh learned some things here, too. But I think that's why it's so hard. But that's why I'm saying I I do think I think that that the Martin Luther King thing is like, okay, just stand at the counter and get milkshakes, you know, and be abused and you know, and you know, if you die doing this, what a death it is.
SPEAKER_01But that Kathy can be weaponized, right? Like that, but but that was not, I I would say that was not the white American Christians experience. And where did the white American Christian community fall short in doing what they needed to do to stand up to the bully so that that didn't have to happen to the person sitting at the counter? Because I think we can really weaponize uh uh passivity and kind of make it like beautiful, that suffering is beautiful when who are the whole host of people that should have made it such that there wasn't that that much suffering.
SPEAKER_00But if we're sticking with that, with the analogy of the lunch counters and pause, they worked hard and their work is still not done in our in our country. Absolutely. That wasn't passivity.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was strength with nonviolence. Yes. It was strength that honored the personhood of the people sitting at the table and even honored the personhood of the people that were wailing on them. Right. And so that's not passivity. I think that's one of the things that sometimes um is challenging for us in what we hear from people in the church. There are those who think we get too political when we preach, and there are those who think we are not political enough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_00And and I honestly believe, to some extent, the pulls of those two parts has made us dig even deeper into the gospel message because we cannot convince anybody to read scripture and change their ways. We can only preach it and let the Holy Spirit do its work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. So, you know, when you go through the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, for example, to me, it's like, you know, we didn't solve this. We solved it economically. We said, okay, in order to get everybody, in order to make money riding buses, we got to let everybody ride buses. And in order for restaurants to work, we got to let everybody at the counter. It was an economic decision. It wasn't a righteous, absolutely pure, hopeful, loving everyone decision. It was an economic decision. And so government intervenes to keep us from fighting one another. Okay. Or money intervenes to keep us keep this machinery working. But the message of Jesus is lost.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely lost. Yeah, because even after the money intervenes and things start to smooth out, anybody who wants to pop up and say, Yeah, but we still didn't answer it, bonk.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02And we're doing that today.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that is.
SPEAKER_02We haven't solved this.
SPEAKER_00Whatever the issue is.
SPEAKER_02Right. And so we have this table where everybody is welcomed. Everybody is welcomed. Everybody. And that's a tough place. Yeah. And it's not love until you're there too.
SPEAKER_00And the best way we have to change any of it is by letting Christ change us, what Paul is preaching about, change us. We're still going to be anxious. We're still going to want to take care of our babies. It is not easy.
SPEAKER_05Do you have a sermon title?
SPEAKER_02No. How about, you know, let's have a drink or something. I don't know. We'll figure it out. It's a lovely, lovely.
SPEAKER_00I know it actually is a very beautiful passage.
SPEAKER_01But it's so we just spent 45 minutes talking about how not lovely it is. Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, how challenging it is. And that's where that's where God took us with it today.
SPEAKER_02Right?
SPEAKER_05And I think why do we cross-stitch it on throw pillows? Why do we have really reached it as a man?
SPEAKER_02I want to know why we have so many pillows.
SPEAKER_01We're not going back to that conversation, Donovan. Let Beth have her pillows.
SPEAKER_0220 minutes to get off the pillows off the bed. 20 minutes to put them back on the bed. All right.
SPEAKER_00Oh, goodness.
SPEAKER_02Oh, please, someone pray. Who can pray? Okay. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Lord God, we thank you that you are with us always. We thank you for beautiful passages of scripture that invite us to find peace in you, that invite us to draw closer to one another because of your love. And we thank you, Lord, that when we struggle with the suggestion that we can do this, when we take time to recognize that it is so hard to be your people, that you're so gracious with us, still working among us. And we ask, Lord, that you will help us to be a congregation that is ready and willing to die to self, not simply for the sake of agreement, but for the sake of our purpose. Help us to be reminded of our purpose, which is to stand firm in you, to be ready to go deeper in our relationship with you and in our relationship with one another so that we have a prayer of experiencing you bringing all of this to fruition in us and around us because you change the world. We thank you, Lord, for your love and we give you this day, this week, and all of our weeks. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
