Episode #22 Lunchtime Skincare with Jo: How to Layer Skincare Products (And What to Avoid)

In this episode, we tackle one of the most common skincare questions — how do you actually layer your products the right way? From product order to ingredient combinations, our skincare expert shares clear, practical tips for building a midlife routine that really works.

You’ll learn which products go first, which combos can boost results, and which ingredients should never be mixed. This is episode 2 of our 4-part skincare series, focused on helping you create a hormone-smart routine that supports your skin through every stage of midlife.

Looking for more answers? Join our next live Q&A when you download the Winona app: https://sso.auth.bywinona.com/sign-up

Get more info on Winona's treatments here: https://bywinona.com/treatments?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=social

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Menopause Hour, your go-to source for answers to your burning menopause questions, the ones you won't get from your OBDYN. Brought to you by Winona, where menopause care is made easy. Download our free Winona community app where thousands of women connect and access exclusive content, expert-led courses, exciting events, and more. It's time to take the guestwork out of your hormonal journey.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Hello, hello everyone, and welcome to another one of our lunchtime skincare with Joe. I'm so excited that you all are here and jumping in. We had our first live yesterday, and we had a lot of great questions, a lot of great discussions. And Joe really kind of just introduced us to, you know, skincare and what works and what doesn't work. So today we're going to talk a little bit more about what it looks like on how to correctly layer some of our skincare products. And Joe's going to walk us all through that. But for those of you who might not have been on yesterday's call as well, just a reminder that if you have questions at any time, go ahead and put them in the chat box at the bottom of the screen. We'll get to those a little bit towards the end. These can be ones that you've had questions about for forever. These can be ones that you have questions about what Joe's talking about. We want to kind of just help you on that and answer the questions. So I'll go ahead and pass it over to Joe to introduce yourself and jump right into things. But we're so glad you're here. We hope that you stay. And we will have more of these throughout the end of the week. So if skincare is your thing, you're in the right place. So Joe, I will pass it off to you. All right. Thanks, Maddie.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

So I'm Joe. And yes, this is day two of our sort of um marathon of skincare videos, just answering some questions, hitting some hot topics. Um, I introduced myself yesterday, but I will do it again for those of you who were not here yesterday. Um, I am first and foremost a Winona patient. Um I've been a Winona patient since March of 2022 and um was shortly employed thereafter. Um, and I am head of patient care services, so I oversee the patient care services team as well as support the doctors on their side with education and training. Um, I'm a dermatology nurse practitioner by trade. I have not practiced since July of 2021, but I still stay in touch with all things skincare. And obviously, when we brought a skincare product uh to market here at Winona, um I helped to um well I didn't develop it by any by any means. Our our fabulous pharmacy team did, but I helped to kind of answer some questions about what we need and what we don't want and all those things. So um I'm I might be considered somewhat of an expert. Um, I consider myself just a person with a bunch of knowledge, and I love to share it, so that's why I'm here. This allows me an opportunity to share my knowledge and what I know um to help you with your skincare needs. So we're gonna talk a little bit about um layering. I do have some notes. Normally I do these things sort of off the cuff, but in order to stay on track and on time, I felt it best to keep an outline to keep myself uh wrangled in. Um, okay, so you know, layering of products. That actually, a lot of people, that's one of the first questions that they have. So they have a whole set of skincare products, and they're like, well, what order do I do all of this in? Because most people don't know. You buy this, you buy that, and you're like, Well, I don't know what kind of product that is and when I should use it. Should I use it a m, p.m., those kinds of things. Um, but really, it is important, it's probably just as important as what products that you do use. So that's why we're gonna cover this in a little more in depth. So, but before we get to talking about the types of products and the the vehicles that the ingredients are in, we're gonna talk just a smidge about the skin. I think everybody knows they have skin, but it is important to realize that there are several layers of the skin and where the products work for you. So if you're looking at your skin, the outside that you see that's the epidermis, that's the outer layer. There's actually five layers that compose that outer layer, but it basically is your protective barrier, it's just there to protect everything on the inside. Um, but that's what everybody sees on the outside, right? Well, then down below that is the dermis, and that's kind of where the magic happens. That there's a couple of layers within the dermis as well, but that's where your um your follicles live, your oil glands, nerves, uh, blood supply. What else? What am I missing? Oh, sweat glands, sweat glands are there. So a lot of uh skincare products that have active ingredients, if they're just sitting on the top of the skin, they're not going to do what they do if they get into the deeper layer, if they're absorbed more deeply. So it's important to understand that distinguish distinction that products that just sit on top of the skin, yes, they will provide some benefit, but the maximum benefit is seen when those products are absorbed into that deeper layer, and that's why it is important to know in what order to put things on and not just willy-nilly, just like oh, this, that, and the other sounds good. Um, and just for making sure we're covering all the things below that is what's called the hypodermis, and it's the fatty layer, has some structures to help hold things in place. So, okay, that's your skin layer primer. So, top epidermis, dermis is where all the magic happens, it's where all the things are. Oh, the other thing I didn't mention in the dermis is murmalancytes, which give your skin color. Um, we talked a little bit about that yesterday, and then the hypodermis, which is sort of the fatty, um, it's a protective layer as well. Um, that we tend to lose, it gets thinner over time, as does the layers of the skin. So, okay, so let's talk about the order of application. I think a lot of people know, but that's why we're here to clear it up. The order of application for most skincare products is going to go from the thinnest product that you have to the thickest, and there are a couple reasons for this. Um, one of probably the most popular things about that is the molecular size. So if you think about something that's large and then something that's smaller, it sort of intuitively you think, well, I would want to put the smaller thing on first, and that would be correct. A lot of the active ingredients like um retinols, hyaluronic acid, vitamin C, smaller molecules in serums should be applied first, and those are typically thinner. We're going to dive into a little bit more detail in kind of descriptive terms about that. Um, however, there are some there are some ingredients that have different weights. So some are always small, some have varying sizes, and a lot of times those with the varying sizes, the products that you use will have a mix. So there will be smaller molecules and then some larger molecules, um, just to sort of kind of mix that in. The other thing is that um creams, so thicker creams have an oil component, and oil molecules are large. So, I mean, the sort of the thought processes for your visual person is that if you have your skin and you put the thick cream on the outside and then you layer a thinner serum on the outside, that it will not penetrate. Um, it probably will to some degree, but will you get the max benefit from that? Having it in that order? No. I'm gonna talk a little bit about that. I have an example about that as well. But that's kind of the the two main things is that the molecule size, the smaller the molecule, and usually find smaller molecules in serums, lighter, thinner products you want to go on first after you cleanse and and tone or use an essence product, sort of a prep product. The serum would be the first thing because you want it to have its maybe another visual would be like if anybody's ever uh run a race, a marathon, half marathon, or anything like that. The fastest people are always at the front kind of thing. So you want to get in, you want to get to the finish line, you want to get deep into the skin faster than the people at the back. That's my own that's my analogy for the day. And then you want the thicker, the thicker, maybe the slower people in the race, if you will, to come behind and then and and basically create sort of a seal, a protective seal, if you will, to hold those serums in so that they can get in and and do their do their job. Okay, so I'm gonna talk a little bit about um serums, gels, lotions, and creams, and kind of get try to give you a visual representation. Um yes, Terry. I'm actually I read a comment. I'm not good at that, but yes, Terry, you are acting, you are absolutely correct. Um, just so you know, like like I say serum, and you assume that everybody knows what a serum is, but maybe not necessarily. Serums are usually, but not always, usually clear-ish and or like opaque, a little bit opaque. They're but they're usually feel very thin, they spread evenly, um, they they can sometimes be a little sticky depending on the um the ingredients in them, but you can tell they're they're thinner. Um gels can be clear, they can be opaque as well. Sometimes there are creamy gels. I have seen a few of those, but for by and large, if you think of a gel, you kind of think of it that it's more clear, like you can't see through it per se, but you know that it's a gel. Hair gel. If anybody's used to hair gel, that's that's a gel. That's a great example of a gel. Um, lotions, lotions are thicker than serums, sometimes thicker than gels. Gels, gels are in a weird space. Sometimes they can be really finish, and sometimes they can be really thick. So they're they kind of run the gamut. Um, but lotions are thin, and usually you you can't see through them. They're not opaque, they're not clear, but they're thin. So, like when you wipe it on your skin, you can see your skin under underneath very quickly and very easily, and they have a lighter feel. Some people like a lotion versus a thicker cream for that reason. Um, I actually prefer lotions. My skin prefers creams, so we we uh we manage that the best we can. Um, creams, on the other hand, are thicker. If they feel thicker, they look thicker. Um some lotions, like if you were to pump a lotion on your hand and hold it like this, it might track down, might track down, just depends on how thin it is. Some of them may it may stay in place. Again, it depends on the consistency of the lotion. Creams, by and large, when you put a cream on, you stick it on there, it's just gonna sit there. It's not going to roll down your hand. I mean, if you sat there long enough and your hand got hot enough, yes, it would it would probably thin out and roll down, but usually they and they feel thick, okay. Um, so when you're when you're even if you don't know the product that you got is a serum, a gel, a lotion, or a cream, most things are labeled with like cream, and a lot of a lot of labeling has serum, some has lotion, some have gel. You can sort of just from the feel, like like I said, for example, if you had a gel, there may be thin gels, they may be thick gels. So then you've got you've got a you've got a serum and you've got a gel, and your gel feels really thin, and your serum maybe feels a little bit thicker. I would probably put that gel in front. It all depends. Um, but that's just kind of a the best way to know like what the product is. I mean, it would be kind of fun to um do like a blind taste test, if you will, feel test, well, feel test, um, and you know, blindfold somebody and have them feel it. And like, is that a gel? Is that a serum? Is that a cream? And see if uh people could identify just based on the feel. But like if you're not sure, your ability to touch and feel and how it goes on, how it glides on, that will give you an indication if you're not sure the order of how to put that on. Okay. Um, so let's talk about the order of application. Obviously, like I said earlier, the lighter things really should go first. It's you just thinner to thicker. That's that's the order. And again, the the products that are typically in a serum form, thinner form are your active ingredients. Some are in lotion form, some are in a gel form. Um, and there can be active ingredients in creams. It's not to say that they're void of active ingredients, but like your powerhouse ingredients, like vitamin C, that's that's gonna be a serum. And when I go I talk live, sometimes my nose itches. I apologize. Um, so serums, like I said, are lightweight, that molecule size is typically smaller, um, and it's got to be well absorbed into the skin. If it's just sitting on the top, like I said earlier, it can give a benefit. Is it going to give you the best benefit? Probably not. Um, but over time, after repeated use, you you're going to see an improvement in your skin. But it's hard to tell if it's not being applied in that order, and you were to be able to forecast into the future and look at yourself having done it one way and or the other way, um, you might see a difference, particularly with vitamin C. Say, for example, um, you had some discolorations and you're really trying to reduce or eliminate some discolorations. If you're using a vitamin C serum and you're not applying it as your first product, so it can get in there and really take care of that for you, and it's kind of on the it's like an after product, then you're probably not going to see results as quickly as you would if you were to apply it in the correct order. Okay. Um, again, lotions they're thicker than a serum, they're lighter than a cream. Usually you can tell by feel, um, but they can also contain active ingredients. And then last but not least, um, are creams. Those are thicker. The purpose of creams, they usually have, and don't cringe when I say this, an oil component. Some people are freaked out by oil, but by and large, um, beauty product manufacturers do things differently today, and they know that your skin does need some oil, um, and they use better quality ingredients and oils that are are more compatible with your skin. So, but the purpose of that cream is that once you have the serum on and you follow with the cream, it it creates a barrier and helps to hold hold those serums in. I think I said that earlier. I'm kind of repeating myself a little bit, but just making sure that it's all clear. Okay, so let's talk about um AM and PM skincare regimen. Um, because that, well, one, your AM and PM skincare regimen typically would be different. Um, for some people, it's the same, and that's fine. I'm just happy if you're doing an AM skincare routine and a PM skincare routine, you're ahead of the masses. So even if it's the same, that's a great starting place. But there are products that are more specific for AM use, vitamin C, that's kind of like with your daily glass of orange juice, and then there are other products that are best used in the evening when your body's restoring and repairing and replenishing. So, so AM skincare one cleanse. Okay, we talked about this yesterday. Cleansing, you want to use a cleanser, but make sure that you, if you use um an SPF, which you should, like in a BB cream, or um, or a makeup foundation with or without uh sunscreen, you really want to use something to take that first layer of stuff off. So that would either be like um a makeup remover wipe, and there's some great ones out there too. Back in the day, they were horrible. Now there's some really lovely ones out there, or like micellar water. There's a several uh companies that create a micellar water on a little cotton pad just to remove that top layer before you cleanse. So that's that's step number one. Step number two, you kind of have two choices. There are toners out there. Um, by and large, toners have been kind of kind of had a bad name because they usually contained harsh ingredients like witch hazel and alcohol. They're meant to be drying, and for most people, they're very drying and very irritating. Um, and the the intent of a toner is to establish or maintain a normal pH of the skin when your pH is off, and this is going off on another tangent, but when that's off, then there can be issues with your skin. So, toners that's what they were intended to do is to keep that skin pH where you want it to be. Um, there are also what we call like essence or prep products out there, those are don't act like a toner, they can have some active ingredients in them, interestingly enough, but they're typically meant to sort of prepare the skin for receiving the products that come next. And specifically, that would be your serums. Um one of the analogies that I have given along along the years, um, and I'll try to make it as quick as I can. Uh, I live in South Carolina. I have clay here. I used to live in Florida, where it's sand, sandy soil. Here it's hard clay soil. So when there's not rain for a really long time, and then then we have a big rain, it's very dry. And what happens is the the water runs off, it doesn't absorb into the ground. Like in a sandy soil when it rains in Florida, not to say that it doesn't rain or flood in Florida because it does, um, it's more likely to soak into the ground. There's a lot more moisture in the air and the ground in Florida than there is, at least where I live here. I don't live on the coast. But um, the the purpose of a prep product is to sort of going back to my rain example, having had a little sprinkle shower every day before the big rain comes, and then when the big rain comes, if the ground is moist, the water is more likely to absorb into the ground rather than run off. So if you think about that sort of as in a skincare analogy, then if the if the if your skin is slightly damp and and prepared to heat, those products are going to be absorbed better. Okay, that's my my grass and frame analogy. Um, next would be your serum, typically vitamin C. That's AM daytime use, that's going to be your number one um serum. Hyaluronic acid is something else that can be used. If I were using both of those, I would I would put my vitamin C first and then follow with my hyaluronic acid, assuming that that is a serum. Um, if it were a cream, it could it would definitely follow as well. Um, so next step that I have listed, which isn't always how I do my skincare, but by and large, this is what most people do is they use their eye cream next. I do my eye cream first. I cleanse, eye prep, I eye cream, and then I do my serums, and then I do my moisturizer. That's mine. But and we're going to talk about changing that up here in a little bit too. But um, step four would be using an eye serum or an eye cream. So keeping that in mind too. I mean, if you're doing your serum on your face first, then you want to do your eye serum as well, and then follow with your face cream. If you're doing an eye cream, still do your overall serum, follow with your eye cream, follow with your full face cream, um, moisturizer, which is step number five. You always want to follow with a moisturizer, and we're going to talk about moisturizer or not to moisturize a little bit. And then last but not least, as always, um SPF. You want to make sure that you have some sort of protection on your face pretty much on the daily. Um, you know, whether that's a BB cream, a legitimate like regular sunscreen, because there really are some nice ones out there now. They're not all yucky, they go on nice, they smell nice. Um, or if you use a foundation that has uh SPF in it. Um, and as we talked about yesterday, 30 SPF is what the American Academy of Dermatology recommends on the daily. Okay. And that's just for day to day where. And tear running to the store, getting the kids, whatever it is that you do on the daily. If you are going to be outside, um, going to the lake, the pool, or whatever, uh, you do want to use a uh a traditional sunscreen and you want to reapply based on your activities. Okay. Um, very good. Let's see. Okay, so let's talk about a PM skincare. Um, wait a minute, back up one second. I missed part of my notes on the AM skincare cleansing with step one. Remember, I'm I said that some people ask me, well, why do I have to wash my face in the morning? I've just been all I've been doing is sleeping. I know it's not like you've been out and about, you don't have makeup on, you don't have baby cream, you don't have sunscreen or any of that stuff on, but it is important to wash your face in the morning and remove the products that you put on for from the nighttime. Um, when you go to apply your um AM products, you want to have a clean slate, you don't want to just keep piling things on. You want to start with a clean slate and apply your AM skincare. So I apologize that I missed that. I don't know how I missed that was the first thing on there, but um, and that is my opinion. That is not that is not law of the land. Um, it's just my opinion. Uh PM. So again, we're gonna cleanse, but remember you want to um pre-clean with a white. I think I actually said that on the AM and I I misspoke. So um, PM, you want to remove sunscreen, BB cream, foundations before you actually use your cleanser so that your cleanser can actually do its job. The example I gave yesterday was kind of like vacuuming before you mop. You're not going to go mop your floors if you haven't vacuumed. At least most people won't. Um, step two, toner or essence. It's it's your choice as to what kind of product you like and and what you use. They're really, I have no preference. I use an essence product mostly because I stepped away from toners for a long time, just because they I have sensitive sensitive dry skin. A toner or traditional toner, um, we are not compatible. So I just kind of stepped away from that. Then you're going to do serums or lotions, um, eye cream if you want to do it in that order. I eye serum, eye lotion, or cream, um, and then follow that with a moisturizer, and then lay your head on the pillow once all of that's dry. Um, and again, your it's your choice as to when you want to do the eye. I do mine first before I put on any serums. Um, if you are using this, it's kind of a tip though, too. If you are using serums uh, particularly at night, like retinols and whatnot, you don't want to get them close to your eye. So by putting your eye cream or your eye serum, which those are created for the area around the eyes, it's not just a marketing gimmick. They literally that is the thinnest skin on your body. Those eye serums are created for that skin. Um, but kind of using putting your eye serum or eye cream before you put on something like a retinol, it kind of creates a little bit of a barrier so that you know if you kind of get up there a little bit closer, you're not gonna create a too much irritation. Um let's see, I think that's all for the PM skincare. So they are a little bit different in terms of uh what you do and what you don't do, um, and but you can change that up, and we are gonna talk a little bit about that. So let's talk about some special considerations, which I said this sort of already, that your AM really should be a little bit different than your PM, and it doesn't mean that you have to go out and buy all the things at the moment, but really, if I had to tell you one serum to use to incorporate in your daytime regimen, it would be vitamin C. I feel like everyone needs vitamin C, it's an antioxidant, it's a corrective and protective product. Um, there's varying degrees of vitamin C in terms of strength. The lower strengths are not as irritating as the higher strengths. So if you are more sensitive or more dry, I would gravitate towards the lower end. Um, nighttime retinol, retin A, um, those are your that powerhouse for skin cell turnover repair while you sleep. Um, those would be the the two main things that I would recommend that would make your AM. So you could cleanse, you could tone in essence, vitamin C in the morning, retinol at night, followed by a moisturizer. And then the AM, of course, you have your SPF. So that would be kind of like a very simple um differentiation between AM and PM. Um, wait times between applications. You will find that some people, some people say you got to wait in between every application of everything and let it dry and do its thing. Um, I don't know that there's any science and data behind that for in general. Um, I don't wait. I'm in there, I'm getting it done. Put them all on. What I would recommend to you though is um follow them the the instructions on the product that you have. It's hard to tell what's in every product, and there may be ingredients where it would be better for you just to give it 30 seconds and let it dry before you go to the next thing. But read your read your follow the product instructions. They have tested their product, they probably do have data on their product in terms of absorption rates and the use and all of that. Um, so you can do that. I don't, I'm I just I just get it done. Um yes, I can answer that. Um, some people use it both, Jennifer. It just depends. Um, it depends on your skincare regimen, but some people do use it both. It's a great product. If you're using the higher strength of niacinamide closer to that 10% mark, it can be a little more irritating. So you just have to kind of if you can use it morning and night and you're not getting any irritation, you're going to probably get the max benefit from that. I'm so proud of myself that I'm able to like look at the comments and answer. I never do that ever. Um, applying to dry skin. So there are a few products out there. Um retinols, tretinoin, for example. Tretinoin is one part of the face cream that that Winona sells. Um it is supposed to be applied to dry skin. And the reason for that, which is just seems kind of a little bit crazy to me, but it is true, that when you apply it to wet skin, then you are more likely to see more irritating effects from it. And I cannot begin to tell you how or why that happens. I'm sure it's out there and I can Google it, um, but I just have not, I haven't. I just like I just know that if you leave your face wet from like your prep product, I know I'm kind of negating what I said, this is like kind of the one exception. Um, that you can, not everyone, but you can get more irritation. So if that's the case and you find that happening and you've applied it after your face is still kind of damp and you're getting some irritation, then wait for that to fully dry before you apply it. And you should see some of that temper. We talked a little bit in depth yesterday about tretino and retinase, retinols, and how they they create irritation. That's an expected um side effect of them, and it means that it's working. So oh, you're welcome. Um, and then here's the big key avoid duplication of um similar active ingredients, um retinol, for example. So, just just as an example, say you had a toner that, or say let's back up to the cleanser. You have a toner that has alpha hydroxy acid wash, and it's good. That's a good chemical exfoliant for your skin. It's going to help to remove dead skin cells. That's great, wonderful. And then you come along with your toner, and it's got, I don't know, say some glycolic acid in it. Um, and then you follow with your retinol, retin A, tretinoin, whatever it is that you're using. That's like the the trifecta of irritants, and you are more than likely going to cause more irritation than good. And there, there truly is um, it's one of those cases where more is not better. Like you want to pick one, either use your alpha hydroxy wash, and that's you're getting that exfoliant, then a calming toner, then not super active. You would go with something like a lower niacinamide or um hyaluronic acid or a ceramide or a peptide, something along those lines. You're not gonna want to add on a Retin-A product because if you cause too much damage to the skin, um, then it has to repair itself, and that's not necessarily a good thing. So that can be too much of a good thing. So keep that in mind that you don't want to do that. So read your ingredients. A lot of nighttime products will include um more active ingredients again, because that's the time that we restore and replenish our skin. So um just read your labels, or if you notice that you're using two or three things and you're like, oh, I'm getting kind of irritated, check them all out and then and then either discontinue one or two of them, or alternate them. There's nothing wrong with doing that, like so. As a cleanser, you rotate your alpha hydroxy cleanser in once or twice a week if you want to, as uh an exfoliant, um, and then the rest of the time use your regular, say, gentle hydrating cleanser or whatever cleanser that you use, or at night, so or maybe you decide you know, one night you're gonna use your toner that has some glycolic in it, and then you're gonna use a more calming um serum and then moisturizer, and then maybe another night you decide I'm gonna do calming cleanser, I'm gonna do just an essence prep product to keep things um calm, and then let it dry if you're using tretinoin, and then apply your tritinoin. You just kind of have to play around with it a little bit in terms of like what's what's right. I don't do the same thing every night. I um when I get into the bathroom, I kind of feel and kind of look and pick and choose from my small arsenal of goodies, and I just kind of rotate them in. Okay. Uh moving on. Okay, so we're circling back to the part about skipping the moisturizer. Um, there's there's a handful of people out there that I've encountered um in my travels that uh they're like, I don't use a moisturizer, my skin is already oily and I don't use a moisturizer. To which I say, well, more than likely, not 100% absolute, but more than likely, your skin is more oily because you don't use a moisturizer. You're either using products that are drying your skin out. We talked a little bit about that yesterday. Like if you use your cleanser and your face feels like this, that's it shouldn't feel like that. It really, really shouldn't. Um, then what happens when you dry your skin out too much? Then the oil production, your skin's super smart, by the way. If you haven't figured that out, the way it can heal itself and do all the things. Um, sometimes we get irritated with it, at least I do with mine. Um, it's going to produce more oil. It knows. It says, hey, hey, and we have more oil glands on our face than anywhere else on our body. So if you if you strip all of those oils away, your body has to compensate. Versus if you use a moisturizer, and again, don't cringe when I tell you, but a lot of moisturizers do have some form of an oil in there, and that is important. We're going to talk about that too. Um you can actually see that that oil production sort of quell. Okay. I'm reading your question, Jennifer, because I can. I think that's fine. I think that's fine. Yeah. Um, peptides, by and large, are not um irritants for the most part. So yeah, I mean that that would be one of those things where if you did peptides and you did niacinamide, and they are found a lot of times combination in combination products anyway. So that's that's completely a-okay. Um, hydration. I'm gonna just just want to touch on hydration and moisturization to sort of kind of drive home this point about using a moisturizer. So you you know, some people say my skin is hydrated, my skin is moisturized. Well, if it looks good, it's probably both. Keep in mind that hydration refers to the water content of your skin, where moisturization refers to the oil content. But for your skin to look hydrated and moisturized and glowy and dewy and all of the things, it's got to have both. Um, if you don't have moisture, so say you have water in your skin and you don't have that moisture barrier with oil to help seal that in, you're more likely to lose water from your skin and your skin to be more dry. So the oil-based moisturizer or moisturizers that have things that are similar to oils help to hold that water in and keep your skin hydrated, firm. Like so, fine lines of wrinkles. When you see like really dry skin with lots of fine lines and wrinkles, if you get a good moisturizer on there, you will actually see them sort of disappear a little bit. Um, and you want to do that before they get ingrained in in your skin. So you need your skin needs both, it needs hydration in the form of water, um, but then also it does need moisture, it needs something to help hold and seal that water in. Okay, all right. So we I referred to this earlier too. There are some exceptions to the rule. Um, in some cases, people with sensitive skin, myself included, I spoke about this yesterday. I actually have underlying rosacea, it was my 40th birthday present. Um, I very I tend to be more dry. I'm not a good hydrator, even though I've got my poppy drink here, although it's not the greatest in the hydration. Um uh I have very sensitive skin. So let's go back to the AM skincare routine. And this is this is what I did and had to do for a period of time. I don't have to do it anymore, but when my skin was inflamed and it was dry and it was very sensitive, and anything I did to it, it was like um I washed with my creamy, gentle, hydrating cleanser. I would use a benign prep product, no harsh toners or anything that's active or going to create any sort of irritation. Um, I couldn't apply my vitamin C serum first. So, what I wound up doing was I would put my moisturizer and then I would follow with my vitamin C. And granted, you know, that's not ideal. You want that serum to go first, but here's the thing: if you're if your skin is getting too irritated when you have it in that order, so check that too. If that's a you if you've noticed that that's an issue, um, switch the order, you're going to get some benefit. It's not that the the molecules of the cream are so big that the little molecules aren't going to make their way through. Um, they'll get there, but sometimes the cream will help to just sort of ease the burden, if you will, or the irritation from your vitamin C. Same thing with tritinoin. You can use a moisturizer with tritinoin. In fact, depending on the vehicle that it's in, you you more than likely need a moisturizer after you apply that. Um, and that will help to quell some of the dryness, some of the irritation that you might experience as well. Um, but you could do you could put your tretinoin on after as well. I've done it. Um, did I get the max benefit like someone who can put it straight on their face? Probably not. But again, if I can't use it because it's creating too much irritation, then you have to kind of be handicapped, if you will, and just do things a little differently. I now now everything I have everything well controlled. I don't, I know what works, I know what doesn't. I apply my vitamin C serum first, and then I follow with my moisturizer, and all is well in my base world. Um, so there's that. Um, closing, you know, there's no law that dictates, and I think that I've kind of made that clear here. There's no law that says that you know you must put it in this order, or it's just not going to be effective, or you're wasting your time and your money on whatever products you have. That's not true. You can you can, and I give you um freedom to to play around and see what works best for your skin. Again, you go back to feeling if you're not sure about what order because of the labeling of whatever product that you have, um feel if it feels thinner, it should go on first. If it's creating too much irritation when it goes on first, then put it later in the in the queue, if you will. Um you can just use these as kind of guidelines to kind of start from where you're at. Um, and if you need to adjust to meet the needs of your skin type, whether you're dry, you're oily, you're sensitive, um, or you've whatever issues that you've got, um, that's okay. And again, like I said, what I what I did, what I used to do and what I do now are different, different things. My skin regimen is is always evolving. I I don't play around a whole lot because I know what works. Um, I mean, I've been what um 18 years uh since my rosacea diagnosis. So um I know what works now, and I kind of stay in my lane and I'm I'm consistent. We talked about that yesterday. That's one of the biggest things is just to be consistent. And if your skincare regimen is overwhelming and you can't remember what order to put everything in, then put a few things aside for a moment and get your basics down. Get your cleansing, get your moisturizing, and get your protection in the way of sunscreen or an SPF. I'll say SPF. SPF sounds better than a sunscreen. Nobody wants to put a sunscreen on. Um, and start there and then start incorporating things to get you where you need to be. Something that you can stay consistent with. Because if you can't stay consistent with the skincare regimen, it's probably not going to do you any good as well. So oh, and Kelly has a question. Uh cleansing oil antidox. I've not used either of those. Um, but if they're working for you, um, in particular if you do have, if you lean towards drier skin, something that does have a little bit of oil in it is not a bad thing. Like I said, the oils of yesterday that they used to put in skincare, there's probably a few out there that put some icky oils in there, but um, most people probably don't buy them. But uh the big beauty brands nowadays, um, they know they know what what we all want, and they're they're putting cleaner ingredients and ingredients that cause less problems, ingredients that particularly with oils are more biosimilar to your natural oil. So your face is like, oh, that's great, that's exactly what I wanted. Um, and I've never heard of an antioxidant facial oil, but if it's working and you like it, then knock yourself out. She's typing again.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

If you want to did you see any other questions, it looks like that might be all of the questions that we have at the moment. But Joe, thank you so much for jumping into all this and jumping into these questions. I know that we got a lot answered. I was gonna say, Bray work also answering those questions as you went. I was very impressed. I was like, that's great. She's doing a great job there.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

That's not normal. I normally I have to I have to focus and pay attention. I get distracted by the questions. And then and if there's a lot of them, then I can't filter through them. But they came in at just the right pace, so it was it was all good.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Um well, thank you so much, Joe, for sharing your time with all of us and your expertise. I know I learned a lot as well, as well as I think that a lot of our attendees did. Um, so yeah, and I just want to say also I did see one question about um someone was wondering how they can access this recording. Um, and I just want to let them know that we will also be uploading this um, I guess you could call it the session as an episode on our podcast. Um, so you can always check out the menopause hour on Spotify, or really, it's available wherever you get your podcast. And we have all kinds of different information on there. We'll have events like this. We have some uh interviews with our ambassadors, we have our live Q ⁇ A's and Dr. Dialogues with Dr. Green and Dr. Kat. We've got all kinds of things on there. Um, and so that's a great place to always check this out. And then we'll also see what we can do about getting a little bit um of a library of recordings all set up so that you all can, you know, access these on demand as well. Um, but I just want to say also thank you so much to everyone who joined today. Thank you to Joe. Um, it's it's really a really great thing, I feel like to see always is women, you know, really taking the time to lean into their journeys and um spend that time on yourself. I think that's a really important aspect of what it looks like to, you know, be dealing with like be in menopause or paramenopause and figuring out self-care and figuring out your life. And sometimes that looks like jumping on a skincare live during your lunch break. Um, there's all kinds of different things. So so glad you were here. Um, we hope that we'll see you tomorrow. At the same time, Joe will be breaking down some more things with skincare. Um, but thank you, Joe, again so much for your time, and we can't wait to see you tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Awesome. Thanks for spending time with us. We hope today's conversation helped you feel more informed, more supported, and a lot less alone. If you're ready to go deeper, download the Winona app. It's free, it's for you, and it's filled with resources, real stories, expert insights, and a vibrant space to connect with women navigating the same season. Have questions? Join our next live QA. Until next time, take care of yourself. We'll be here when you're ready for more.