The History of Murder
Some murders changed history. Some happened because of it. The History of Murder puts crimes in context - using interviews with historians, actors reading the actual words of those involved, and narration that brings it together for a compelling story in each episode.
The History of Murder
Was She a Killer? The Story of Ma Barker
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She was the head of a vicious gang of robbers, killers and kidnappers. She was a nice lady who was kind to neighborhood kids. She was a simple woman who enjoyed the finer things and never asked questions about where the money came from. She was a “Karen” who defended her boys to the police, her husband, and anyone who got in her way. So, who was Kate “Ma” Barker and what’s the real story behind the legend?
Check out the Ma Barker House: Bradford - Ma Barker House | Ma Barker Gang Hideout | Ocklawaha
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Team & Contributors
Executive Producer- Clare O'Donohue
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Executive Producer - Margaret Smith
Writer: Kara Amis Thomas
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Editor – Steph Kelly
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Social Media Manager & Design - Mikayla Bogus
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IT Manager - Conor Sweeney
The History of Murder Logo - Bernadette Carr
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Theme Song “My Carnal Life I Will Lay Down” - Rob Brereton
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Voice of "Ma" Barker: Megan Grano
Instagram: @meganegrano
Voice of Edward Bremer: David Vaughan
Voice of Marion Hannegraf: Clare Smith
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Marion County, Florida, 1935. Federal agents, their weapons drawn, surrounded a cozy lakeside home. Inside was one of the most notorious gangsters of his day, Fred Barker, and his mother, Kate. A gunfight broke out, hundreds of bullets were fired, and both Fred and his mother were killed. The FBI made clear their mother was not an innocent bystander. They called her, quote, a mean, vicious beast of prey, unquote. But is that true? Or was it a lie to cover up for Ma Barker's murder? It's the history of murder, and I'm your host, Claire O'Donohue. FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover called this gang, quote, the most vicious, cold-blooded crew of murderers, kidnappers, and robbers in recent memory, unquote. They were the Barker brothers and their partners in crime. In their prime, the gang boasted 25 members and made off with over$3 million in loot, about$75 million in today's dollars. And the person whom the feds call the group's mastermind was the sharp-nosed, curly-haired, matronly looking Kate Barker. Wayne Hughes is a tour guide at the Bradford Ma Barker House in Florida.
SPEAKER_06I would say she was uneducated, but she was very strong personality toward her boys and then the mother part of her life, very strong mother, almost abrasive mother.
SPEAKER_05But to those who knew and worked with the gang, Ma was just a loving mother who staunchly supported her sons no matter what they did or who they did it to. Extremely permissive parent? Yes. Queen of the crooks? Well, maybe not. Harvey Bailey was considered the dean of American bank robbers. He was interviewed in prison once and they asked him, did Ma Barker ever help plan these robberies or kidnappings?
SPEAKER_00Before we continue, please remember to leave a comment, like the video, and subscribe to our channel. It will help us continue to make new content. Now, back to the story.
SPEAKER_05Ma Barker was born Arizona Donnie Clark in Ashgrove, Missouri, on October 8, 1873. Growing up poor with an abusive alcoholic father and a submissive doormat of a mother, young Ari longed for escape and a life of luxury. She loved reading stories about famous Western outlaws like Jesse James and the Dalton gang. As an eight-year-old, she even hiked nearly 50 miles to catch a glimpse of James when he passed through her state. On September 4, 1892, just shy of her 19th birthday, Ari married a local farmer named George Barker.
SPEAKER_06George was 14 years older than Ma at the time they got married. And so I think he was trying to be a father figure as best he could, but he was not the most ambitious guy.
SPEAKER_05George and Ari settled in Aurora, Missouri and had four boys, Herman, Lloyd, Arthur, known as Doc, and Fred. By the time Fred was born in 1902, Ari retired her first name and began calling herself Kate. With a big family to support, George juggled a series of low-skilled jobs, but he struggled to keep the bills paid and food on the table. Kate, who had grown into a domineering, whiskey-chugging wife, resented her husband's inability to provide. So when they started skipping school or stealing to bring home extra cash, Ma didn't bat an eyelash. Especially since, in her view, George was failing the family.
SPEAKER_06I don't think the boys were good at sitting home and waiting for dad to figure out these problems with no money, no food. So they took it into their own hands, and Ma was good with it.
SPEAKER_05The Barker kids earned a reputation as rowdy, barely literate troublemakers. The neighbors called them sons of Satan. But to Kate, they were her beloved boys.
SPEAKER_03She apparently once said, If the good people of this town don't like my boys, then the good people know what they can do.
SPEAKER_05Because of the boys' lawlessness, the family was forced out of Aurora and settled in a town 53 miles away. There, Herman and Lloyd started their first gang. The teens picked pockets and extorted money from frightened shopkeepers. But whenever they were caught, their aggressive Ma would do her best to get them off.
SPEAKER_06Even when they were arrested, she went to the city hall and defended them and carried on, ran in a rave to get them out of jail. So I don't believe they did anything wrong in Ma's eyes.
SPEAKER_05Ma would put on theatrical performances for local law enforcement. She'd cry and plead for her boys, then she'd yell about official corruption and demand to see solid evidence of her son's offenses. She'd also accuse the cops of using her kids as scapegoats for their own inability to curb crime. Exhausted by her tirades, the authorities began to turn a blind eye to the boys' antics. But in 1915, things took a more serious turn. The family had by then settled in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and the boys fell in with a notorious local gang.
SPEAKER_06They were involved in the Central Park gang. They hung out with some other guys who grew up to be gangsters, Harvey Bailey and Harry Campbell.
SPEAKER_05These budding young gangsters peddled phony newspaper subscriptions, stole cars, and robbed stores. When Herman Lloyd and a few others were arrested in Joplin, Missouri, Ma swooped in to harangue the police.
SPEAKER_03Lies! Oh lies! You're all lying about my boys.
SPEAKER_05But while the Joplin cops gave in to Ma and released the boys, others weren't so easily persuaded. On August 13, 1916, Herman was arrested in Springfield for robbing a jewelry store and sentenced to four years. He escaped and hitchhiked to Montana using the alias Burt Lavender, where he was caught again for burglary and sent to prison. Arthur was arrested and charged with car theft in July of 1918. It seemed that one by one, the brothers were being pinched by the law. But the youngest, Fred, managed to stay on the outside and continue his criminal ways.
SPEAKER_06I think Freddie was a very arrogant, cocky, cold-blooded uh kid growing up with the Central Park gang. He kind of took over the lead of that gang and just went from there. He graduated from there to bigger crimes and more robberies, more money.
SPEAKER_05But with the U.S. in the midst of World War I, one Barker boy tried to follow a different path.
SPEAKER_06Lloyd decides to go straight. He enlists in the Army. He serves through World War I, gets out with an honorable discharge, and then decides to try his luck at robbing the payroll of the U.S. mail. He is captured and sentenced to 25 years in the Legnower Federal Prison.
SPEAKER_05In 1920, Arthur Doc Barker, freed from the car theft charge, shot and killed a night watchman while committing a robbery. He was given a life sentence. Five years later, Fred was captured and convicted for another crime and sentenced to five to ten years in the Kansas State Prison. That left Herman as the only brother not behind bars. Continuing the family business, in August of 1929, Herman with several others robbed the Newton Crystal Ice Plant in Kansas. But he made a critical mistake.
SPEAKER_06According to the Joplin Journal newspaper, one of the boats went through his forefront teeth, and the officer was dead. An officer by the name of Frank Bush on the passenger side of the car opened fire, shot into the car. He wounded Herman severely. Herman still had enough left to take off in the car, but he crashed straight up the road in a parking lot of a 24-hour diner. And as people gathered around the scene, he took his gun out and again, according to the Jocelyn Journal, said, Tell my mother I'm sorry, and he committed suicide rather than be taken alive.
SPEAKER_05With his oldest son dead, George was racked with grief. He decided he'd had enough. While some say Ma kicked him out, others maintain he chose to leave. Either way, George Barker walked away from his wife and sons for good.
SPEAKER_06He left Ma in 1927, and he said that Ma never let him discipline the boys. And at this point, I've got one dead, three in jail, and Ma never let me discipline the boys. I couldn't take it anymore.
SPEAKER_05On her own and grieving for Herman, a middle-aged Ma started a relationship with 69-year-old Arthur Dunlop. But he turned out to be an underachieving, jobless alcoholic. So Ma, lonely for her boys, began a relentless campaign to get them released. While she harassed prison guards and parole boards, Fred, still in prison in Kansas, forged a friendship with another inmate, Alvin Karpis.
SPEAKER_06He was born in Canada. His name was Alvin Karpowitz, and when he came to the States, if Alvin Karpis hadn't hooked up with Freddie Barper, you wouldn't even know that name today. I think he would have been in the category with these gangsters whose nobody's heard of. But I think he was a great straight man to Freddie Barper. So, but I don't think Karpis was a killer at all.
SPEAKER_05I don't think he killed anybody that I know of. Ma eventually wore down the authorities and was able to get Fred out on parole in March of 1931. Karpis was released a few months later. Ma took to him immediately, viewing him as her newly adopted son. Once on the outside, Fred and Elvin started what would soon be called the Barker Karpis Gang. They recruited other thugs and resumed their old ways, robbing stores and banks. Karpis later wrote in his autobiography what a natural he was when it came to being a gangster.
SPEAKER_02My profession was robbing banks, knocking off payrolls. I was good at it. And in another set of circumstances, I might have turned out to be a top lawyer or a big-time businessman, or made it at any high position that demanded brains and style and a cool hard way of handling yourself.
SPEAKER_05But in December 1931, the gang faced a problem. While trying to avoid arrest after a robbery, Fred and Karpis killed Missouri Sheriff Ceroy Kelly. Law enforcement offered a reward of$500 for each fugitive and$100 for the location of Arthur Dunlop and quote, old Lady Barker, unquote. It was the first and last time Ma's name was ever officially implicated in the gang's activities. They fled to St. Paul, Minnesota.
SPEAKER_06St. Paul was a haven for gangsters. There was a thing up there called the Big John O'Connor Agreement, which basically said any criminal could come into St. Paul, they had to check in at the Green Lantern Tavern, they had to put a little money in the till, and they were not allowed to commit a crime in St. Paul. Big John O'Connor was the police chief, and he said, My town is safe because they know they can't commit a crime. He wouldn't extradite anybody out. John O'Connor said that the reason he did that was because when they put money in the till, he used that money to hire policemen because he didn't have a budget. So the gangsters were hiding out, spending their money in St. Paul, and the money they contributed to the till, the police chief took it to pay for cops, to hire cops to keep the rest of the city safe.
SPEAKER_05In St. Paul, the Barkers posed as the Anderson family. They rented a house at 1031 South Robert Street from a woman named Helen Hangraff. Despite the bounty on their heads, Ma loved her new life and her upscale two-story duplex. The icebox was always filled with expensive steaks, and the closets were loaded with brand-name clothes. The family attended church socials and community events, often bringing warm dishes to local potlucks. Marion, the granddaughter of Mrs. Hangraff, remembered the family as quote, the nicest people, unquote. Later, even after learning who the Andersons really were, she still had fond memories of Ma.
SPEAKER_07We'd hurry home from St. Matthew School because if we got home early, we could walk Mrs. Barker's curly-haired bulldog. Whoever got there first, you get a nickel or a candy bar.
SPEAKER_05While Ma Barker pretty much had an open door policy for her sons and their friends, some say she didn't like any of her boys' girlfriends, like Fred's paramore, Paula Harmon, or Carpis' lover Doris Delaney. She tried to keep them separated when they were under her roof.
SPEAKER_06You can rob banks and shoot cops, but no hanky panky in this house. There's also a story about Ma. Once her husband left her, he also made a comment that she was very friendly, these are his words, very friendly with her womanly assets. Now, except for Arthur Dunlop, I can find nowhere where Ma had a boyfriend, and I don't think she was running around, it's a nice way to say it. I don't think she was running around with different men.
SPEAKER_05Whether Ma was a loose woman or not has been debated. But was not debated was her homemaking skills or lack thereof.
SPEAKER_06I don't think she was ever the housekeeper that a lot of moms are cooking and cleaning and making sure the beds were made. I don't think that was her role. I think she was pretty much uh crossroad puzzles and jigsaw puzzles, and she loved to go to the movies. So I think that was basically her role. She was just uh they brought her along as a front, and she just went for the ride.
SPEAKER_05In April of 1932, Ma and the gang's happy life in St. Paul took a dramatic turn. Their landlady, Mrs. Hangraff, saw a story in the magazine True Detective about the Barker gang and recognized the mugshots as her tenants. Someone tipped off the family who fled before the cops arrived. But Ma and the boys were furious. They believed it was Arthur Dunlop who had blown their cover.
SPEAKER_06And of course, he was a drunk like most of the guys back in that time. And again, he was in the Green Lantern Tavern. He was running his mouth that he was a big part of the Barker Carpis gang. Well, first of all, you don't talk about the Barker Carpis gang. You don't mention you're in a gang, and but he claimed to be running it.
SPEAKER_05The Barkers decided to ditch their chatty weak link. Dunlop's naked body was soon found in Webster, Wisconsin. He'd been shot three times at point blank range. Next to his body was a woman's glove, drenched in blood.
SPEAKER_06It's still an unsolved case. I'm sure it was Freddie Barker that shot him. I don't think Freddie had any qualms about killing any guy that was with his mother.
SPEAKER_05On September 10, 1932, Arthur Doc Barker was paroled. He joined Ma and the gang who had relocated to another Minnesota town. The guys continued their crime spree, hitting banks throughout the Midwest and shooting whoever got in the way.
SPEAKER_06They stole more money, robbed more banks, killed more civilians, and killed more cops, police, than all the big name famous gangsters combined. So yeah, they made a lot of money. What they did with it, I don't know. It's got to be on booze and women. I don't know what else you're doing, all that money back in those days. It's estimated three and a half million they stole in their robberies and kidnappings.
SPEAKER_05As their infamy grew, so did the list of thieves and thugs who joined the gang. Though many signed on as freelancers, just doing one or two jobs.
SPEAKER_06Most of these people just passed through the gang over its four-year lifespan.
SPEAKER_05By 1933, although the gang had been wildly successful, the Barker Boys and Alvin Karpus began to rethink their careers. Bank robberies and holdups were becoming extremely risky. The cops were getting dangerously close to nabbing them and sometimes did capture a few of their associates during escapes. Plus, with the depression on, many banks were closing and some had little cash on hand. But there was one crime that was capturing the nation's attention and also sparked the imagination of the gang. It was the kidnapping of American hero Charles Lindbergh's baby. Lindbergh's infant son disappeared from his crib in March of 1932. Ransom notes were sent and$50,000 was paid out before the child's body was found. It would take until 1935 before Bruno Hauptman would be convicted and sentenced to death. During the years that the story stayed in the headlines, the idea of kidnapping for ransom kind of took off in the criminal class.
SPEAKER_06So it was the Lindbergh baby kidnapping which triggered kidnapping in this country. There were a number of them. A man named John Factor, I don't know if you ever heard that one, he was kidnapped because his brother was Max Factor. They tried to extort him for money.
SPEAKER_05Kidnapping appealed to the Barker Karpis gang, and when Fred heard about one that some of El Capone's old friends were planning, he wanted in. The problem was the target of the kidnapping was William Ham, the president of Ham Brewing Company in St. Paul, Minnesota. And committing such a high-profile crime in a town that was a gangster haven, would break the big John O'Connor Agreement, the agreement that kept gangsters in St. Paul safe from law as long as they didn't break it there.
SPEAKER_06Alvin Karpis tried to talk Freddie and Doc Barker out of it, but Freddie was arrogant enough that he thought he could get away with it. I think Freddie was so cocky and arrogant that when he made that decision, he was convinced it was the right thing to kidnap William Ham up in St. Paul, Minnesota.
SPEAKER_05On June 15, 1933, Ham was abducted while leaving his office. He was taken to Wisconsin, where he was made to sign four ransom notes. The price for his freedom was$100,000. The money was delivered a few days later and Ham was released. But what the gang didn't know was that federal agents were developing a new technique called the silver nitrate method. It would later be called latent fingerprint identification. Scientists understood that fingerprints usually contain perspiration, shock full of sodium chloride, in other words, salt. By painting their ransom notes with silver nitrate, the salty perspiration would chemically react and make unseen fingerprints clearly visible. Using this method, the feds found the fingerprints of Doc, Karpis, and another member on the Ham ransom notes. It was the first time this technique was successfully used. Suddenly, the Barker Karpis gang was on the federal government's radar.
SPEAKER_06I don't blame the Barkers actually hit the scale until they kidnapped William Ham back in 1933, because they passed the Lindbergh Law or the federal kidnapping law. Because up until then, you know, the feds couldn't get involved in the gangsters because robbing a bank wasn't a federal crime. The only federal crime robbing a bank was if you worked at the bank. If you worked there, they charged you with federal if you were stealing from your employer. But up until then, the feds weren't getting involved.
SPEAKER_05But by now, the feds were involved since the gang had taken up kidnapping. Their next target was banker Edward Bremer, who came from one of the wealthiest families in St. Paul. On January 17th, 1934, after dropping off his daughter at school, Bremer was accosted in his car while waiting at a red light.
SPEAKER_06Karpis and Arthur got out of their car, shoved him down into the passenger side of the front, and pushed him down and drove off with him. Edward Bremer was a lot more of a problem, according to them, than William Hamm. William Hamm just sat there, did what he was told to do. Bremmer fought him tooth and nail. So they were kind of glad to get rid of him.
SPEAKER_05But they couldn't get rid of him right away, because the ransom they demanded was twice what they'd gotten before. Now the price was$200,000, nearly$5 million now, which gave Bremmer's father some reservations.
SPEAKER_06His father wasn't real keen about giving out that money. His father was a real stickler. He did not want to pay the ransom, so he negotiated back and forth for a while.
SPEAKER_05President Franklin Roosevelt took an active interest in this case, saying that the kidnappers had perpetrated, quote, an attack on all we hold dear, unquote. He'd even talked about the scourge of gangsters and kidnappers in his 1934 State of the Union address.
SPEAKER_06And in one of Roosevelt's fireside chats, he mentioned this kidnapping and said he was going to do everything he can. To get Bremmer back alive. And he got on J. Edgar Hoover. And he put the pressure on Hoover saying, I want this guy back. Bremmer was a big donor, donated a lot of money to Roosevelt's campaign.
SPEAKER_05After 21 days, Bremmer's family finally pulled together the money and paid it. On February 16th, he was released. Bremer later described the ordeal to the press.
SPEAKER_01I must have been struck fifteen or twenty times. My eyes became filled with blood and I was dazed. I was taken out of the car and led some distance where we went downstairs. I was placed in a chair, then they examined my head and washed off the cuts as best as they could. I was then bandaged up and put to bed. They ordered me to behave as they told me, or they would chain me to the bed. Naturally, I acceded to their every wish.
SPEAKER_05Bremer's kidnapping may have been over, but it was not forgotten. President Roosevelt ordered a manhunt for perpetrators. Bremer himself provided many clues. Investigators caught a break when they found Doc's fingerprint on an empty gas can left along an abduction route. Now the feds were hot on the trail of the Barkers. As the leader of the gang, Elvin Karpis was declared public enemy number one. Fred and Karpis went to a surgeon in Chicago who was well known for helping gangsters. He tried to alter the men's appearance. Karpis did get his fingerprints shaved off, but the doctor botched on Fred's face, leaving scars but no visible difference. As retribution, the doctor's body was later found near Lake Erie. And the gang went on the run.
SPEAKER_06They knew what the flying squad, that was the group of feds that were coming to chase them. They called them the flying squad. They knew the flying squad was on the move, so they decided to split up. Alvin Karpis and Dolores go to Cuba. Ma and Freddie and Harry Campbell, a lifelong friend, go to Miami. So they moved in here as best we can figure. The closest date we can figure is November 9th, 1934.
SPEAKER_05Once Ma and Fred moved to Florida, they settled into a rented home near Lake Weir in the town of Oklawaha. Doc and his girlfriend got an apartment in Chicago. Once again, the Barkers, especially Ma, became known as kind and friendly residents.
SPEAKER_06People said that her and Freddie ingratiated themselves to the neighborhood, and except for going out on the lake at midnight, shooting their machine guns, they said they were terrific neighbors. And I think, you know, there's all kinds of records of Ma going out paying kids two bucks to mow the lawn when kids were getting with dime and always having cookies and lemonade for the neighbors. He said, You guys know who I am. And Agent Muzzy said to him, Doc, where's your gun? And he said, Home, isn't that a hell of a place when I need it right now?
SPEAKER_05During a search of Doc's apartment, the feds, led by Agent Earl Connolly, struck gold. They found some clues they believed would lead them right to the whereabouts of Fred and Ma Barker.
SPEAKER_06He found the map of Florida with Central Florida Circle that Freddie had sent him. It didn't mention any towns or names, just the whole center of Florida Circle. They found the letter, the famous letter about Gator Joe. Fred had written a letter to his brother, again, not mentioning any towns or cities, talking about this gator, 16, 17-foot gator that they were trying to shoot for a trophy and meat. But eventually the gator was killed, and whoever did kill it cut its paw off, and it's on display.
SPEAKER_05Some clever detective work led investigators to the Lake Weir area to search for the Barkers. And contrary to local lore, Agent Connolly made it clear it was not Gator Joe that brought them there.
SPEAKER_06One of the people asked him, did knowing about this gator, was that a big help knowing this huge gator on this lake? And he said, Well, coming out of Chicago, I thought this was going to be a big help until I got in Florida and I found out every town in Florida has a lake and a gator named Joe. When the feds came in town, they were looking for mom Freddie and well, Freddie and the gang, they went to the postmaster. The postmaster said the only people new in town that I know of are the Blackbirds. That was an alias that the Barkers used. And he said they get a newspaper every day from Chicago. That's the only mail they get. But if you want to verify anything, why don't you go talk to Mr. Barber?
SPEAKER_05By a strange stroke of luck, Mr. Barber was a local who'd recently retired from his job as a federal prison guard at Leavenworth, the same prison where Lloyd Barker was housed.
SPEAKER_06Well, they go in there and he identifies the picture of Ma Barker as the mother of Lloyd Barker, who's doing the 25 years for trying to rob the payroll of the U.S. Mail. So, with the information the postmaster said about the Blackburns, a newspaper from Chicago, him identifying Ma Barker, the feds had it all they needed.
SPEAKER_05It was a very experienced team of agents that closed in on the Barkers. They had taken down a lot of famous gangsters. Agent Thomas McDade had been involved in the killing of Babyface Nelson. Agent Charles Winstead, a skilled sharpshooter, had fired the fatal shots that killed John Dillinger. Agent Sam McKee had been part of the team that killed Pretty Boy Floyd. And on the early morning of January 16th, 1935, they arrived at the house on Lake Weir, where Ma and Fred were staying.
SPEAKER_06Well, it was about six o'clock in the morning. These 14 men, again called the Flying Squad, surround the house. Agent Connolly waited until the sun came up. Once he thought it was might enough, he calls out for them to surrender. They don't, as he starts to back up, the woman yells, What are you gonna do? Agent Connery hears that. He signals for the tear gas. The agents shoot and miss the windows. They hit the side of the house. As soon as the tear gas made its appearance, the tear gas starts coming out of the upstairs southwest windows, shooting down at the three agents in the front. Gunfire starts coming out of the downstairs southwest window simultaneously. Bob Barker had to be shooting a gun. There's only two people in the house. This gunfire keeps going. Now it starts to go around the house. Somebody starts running around the house, shooting out of every window, trying to make it look like there's more than two people in the house. This goes on for about an hour and 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_05Most reports about the famous shootout say it lasted four to five hours. They say it was the longest shootout in FBI history. There's just one problem with that.
SPEAKER_06It wasn't the FBI, it was the DOI Division of Investigation. The FBI became official January 1st, 1936. This shootout was January 16, 1935. So almost a year before they became the FBI. It was really a two-hour shootout and a three-hour standoff. And 2,000 rounds. I think that was the number thrown out when they were trying to sell the house. But based on Agent Stapleton's report that he did his inventory, he counted 641 bullets. That's the only count that I know of that was taken inside the house after the shooting. Agent Connolly estimated 250 bullets shot out. So you're looking at a total of about 891 bullets, give or take a few.
SPEAKER_05At about 20 minutes to nine, suddenly everything stopped. There was no more gunfire, just silence. The shootout was over. Agents first sent Willie Woodbury, a local handyman, inside to see if the Barkers was still alive. Woodberry, wearing a bulletproof vest, walked in alone. He found Ma and Fred Barker.
SPEAKER_06Both were dead. Freddie Barker was face down on top of a blue steel colt revolver. It was fully loaded, but jammed, would not shoot. Kate Barker's body was removed from the scene.
SPEAKER_05The killings made front page news, and the legend of the Barker shootout took off.
SPEAKER_06They were put on display for 30 days, and for 30 days there was a nonstop line of people to view the bodies. After the 30 days, Ma and Freddie were put on ice. They stayed in the morgue in Pyle's funeral for nine months until George Barker, Ma's legal husband, could come east, get the bodies. Ma and Freddie were found with$14,000 bills. George, after all the paperwork and expenses, ended up with about$1,700. He used that money to take Ma and Freddie back to Welch, Oklahoma, where they're buried in the Williams Timberhill Cemetery.
SPEAKER_05George would spend the rest of his life working in an Oklahoma gas station. He died at the age of 81 of natural causes. After Ma and Fred's death, the other gang members were rounded up one by one.
SPEAKER_06Karpis will get apprehended about a year later, May 1st, 1936, in New Orleans. And of course, there's always that controversy about J. Edgar Hoover arresting him personally. I think he was hell bent on getting Karpis. Karpis at that point now he's robbing trains and post office. So it was the postal police and the locomotive police or train police who pinned him down and then got a hold of the FBI because they thought it politically it'd be better if the FBI makes the arrest. So that's why Hoover came down and did it.
SPEAKER_05Just like with the Barker shootout, a legendary story emerged about the arrest of Elvin Karpis. Apparently, when the feds went to arrest him, there was no one with handcuffs around. So an agent named Buchanan offered to use his necktie to tie the suspect's hands.
SPEAKER_06Well, it got out as the Buchanan handcuffs or the Buchanan necktie event or uh affair. And later, after reading his son's diary, what happened was J. Edgar Hoover wanted the tie for the FBI Hall of Fame in Washington, and Buchanan was always kidding him about he wouldn't send it to him. They were good friends like fishing buddies after he retired. But he later decided to send him the tie. So he boxed it up, took it into the post office in Muscogee, Oklahoma, and mailed it to J. Andrew Hoover. The tie has never been seen again.
SPEAKER_05After Arthur Doc Barker was arrested in Chicago, he was convicted of the Bremer kidnapping and sent to a new prison called Alcatraz.
SPEAKER_06He was in Alcatraz four years and five days. Friday the 13th, January 1939, him and four other men attempted the first night escape at Alcatraz.
SPEAKER_05Prison snipers shot at Doc, who tried to flee on a makeshift raft. He was hit twice. He was taken to the prison hospital where he died. His final words reportedly were, quote, I'm all shot to hell. I was a fool to try it, unquote. Alvin Karpis also spent some time in Alcatraz. In fact, he spent 33 years in various prisons before he was released in 1969.
SPEAKER_06He was immediately deported out of this country back to Canada. That did not work out for him. So he moves to, I think it's called Torlesimo, Spain. He moves to Spain. He dies there 10 years later, 1979, at the age of 72. His death is officially listed as accidental overdose of sleeping pills. After Karpis died, he was buried in Malaga, Spain. He was buried in a cemetery that required you to keep a lease on your plot. Twenty years after he was buried, May 26, 1999, with nobody to pay the rent on his plot, Alvin Karpis's remains were disinterred from the grave, taken out into the mountains, and dumped in a pit where they put those that don't pay the bills.
SPEAKER_05Lloyd Barker, who had not been part of the gang during its heyday because he had been in prison, finally was released in 1939.
SPEAKER_06The Federal Bureau of Prisons came to Lloyd and said, You're free to go. You've been a good boy, no incident reports, and at this point, your mother's dead, your three brothers are dead, there's no crime group left. You're free to go.
SPEAKER_05Lloyd joined the military once again and served through World War II as a POW camp cook in Fort Custer, Michigan. After his second honorable discharge, he headed to Colorado. He got a job as a short-order cook and married his longtime girlfriend Jenny, who had two kids from a previous marriage. Together, they had two more.
SPEAKER_06And on March 18th, 1949, Lloyd gets up to go to work. This is based on police testimony. He gets up to go to work. Jenny said, Can you come back home after you get everything set up and take care of the two babies today? I don't feel well. Lloyd came home, opened up the front door of the house, and Jenny was standing there with a 12-gauge shotgun and blew most of the left side of his head off. Jenny told the police she thought it was an intruder coming to get her children. Her son, by the previous marriage, when interviewed by the police, said that his mother had planned it. So Jenny Barker was convicted, found guilty, and at the age of 37 was sentenced to the Pueblo, Colorado Insane Asylum where she dies 37 years later.
SPEAKER_05Though Kate Barker and the rest of the gang were gone, her reputation and that of the boys continued to grow. Hoover and the FBI especially villainized Ma as the cutthroat head of the most vicious crime group of the gangster era, and movies portrayed her as a ruthless, gun-toting, monstrous mama who was also a criminal genius. Yet those who knew her personally always maintain the FBI portrait was wildly inaccurate and possibly an attempt to cover for the killing of a 61-year-old woman. In his book, Alvin Karpis described her as a combination of both images. An overindulgent mother who did commit a crime of being a willing accomplice.
SPEAKER_02The most ridiculous story in the annals of crime is that Ma Barker was the mastermind behind the Karpis Barker gang. She wasn't a leader of criminals or even a criminal herself. She knew we were criminals, but her participation in our careers was limited to one function. When we traveled together, we moved as a mother and her sons. What could look more innocent?
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