Green Tech Diplomacy featuring Belgium's Ambassador to Kenya

Kenya’s tech story is bigger than startups and bigger than mobile money. When digital infrastructure grows, energy demand grows with it and that forces a hard question: can the digital economy scale without going green first?

We talk with Belgian Ambassador Peter Maddens about why his team links “digital and green,” and what that looks like on the ground in Nairobi, including a retrofitted net zero embassy with solar power, water recycling, on-site cooking gas, and hydroponic farming. From there, we zoom out to the Kenya Belgium relationship inside the broader European Union ecosystem and what each side genuinely needs from the other: trust, capability, and practical collaboration.

A big thread is digital policy and governance. We dig into GDPR, privacy, and what an EU adequacy decision for Kenya could mean for cross-border data flows, SaaS growth, fintech partnerships, and investment confidence. We also unpack the less glamorous but crucial plumbing of deal-making, including double taxation agreements and how markets assign “risk” when deciding where capital should land. The conversation gets candid about old attitudes, shared responsibility, and why adding value locally matters as much as writing new policies.

We close with AI governance, “green AI,” the role of public private partnerships, and why education is still the foundation underneath every serious development goal. If you enjoy smart, honest conversations about technology, climate tech, regulation, and investment in Africa, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave us a review with your biggest takeaway.

Credits
Host: 

• Stella Gichuhi

Producer: 

• James Njoroge

Executive Producers:

• Harry Hare
• Agutu Dan

Transcript

Green Tech Meets Diplomacy

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What happens when you bring green and tech together? That is exactly what the Belgian ambassador to Kenya, Mr. Peter Mattens, is trying to do. On this week's episode, we explore the EU relationship between Kenya and well, EU, and to understand where the risk lies, why are we not being invested in. And a great line was we need to admit where we went wrong and for the EU to kind of say, actually, you guys know what you're doing. Tune in to Tech Talk Africa Season 2, Episode 6, for a conversation that touches on diplomacy, philosophy, education, and of course tech. Ambassador Peter Madden. That's me. Welcome to Tech Talk Africa. Thank you. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

My pleasure.

A Belgian Ambassador With Kenya Roots

SPEAKER_01 0:44

You are a man who has experience in both Kenya, the region. A little bit. But you have special roots in Kenya, don't you? I do. You studied here.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Uh well, my dad was one of my predecessors, and I went to school at St. Mary's. Yeah, I finished high school there.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

About 50 years ago. But let's not talk about the how did your experience in St.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Mary's uh shape your view of Kenya? Oh, of Kenya? Yeah. Because you had the local context, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in those in those days, it's uh like many international schools, I guess. Yeah. St. Mary's was an enormously diverse place.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

And it actually showed how how uh open and welcoming and and and diverse Kenya actually is.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

And that I mean, one of my biggest no, I can't call it a surprise. One of the the best things I experienced coming back 45 years later, was that that had not changed. Okay. That that that Kenya was still this very open, very dynamic, very diverse place. Yeah. That allowed everybody to, you know, do his thing. And that we learned that at St. Mary's. I mean, we learned that we we lived that at St. Mary's, yeah, in those days.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

And is that what contributed to your interest in the digital space? The familiarity?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Well, I mean, I don't think you can in in in in in my in my job and maybe with you know the way I look at the world, I I don't think you can avoid being interested or wanting to know about the digital space. Yeah.

Why The Embassy Pivoted After COVID

SPEAKER_00 2:15

When when my wife and I arrived here in 2021, it was the back end of COVID. Yeah. And our embassy was actually uh in a bad shape because one of our one of our diplomats had died of COVID. Oh, so did that. And somebody on the support staff had died as well. So we we'd actually had I mean my team had actually had quite a quite the traumatic experience. Now the the the diplomat who died, she had focused her work uh in large part on the human rights space. Okay. And purely, this I mean, this may sound uh trivial, but purely from an HR perspective, I decided that I did not want her successor to be identified with her. Okay. So we changed the focus of her work to digital to digital and climate. Okay or digital and green. Okay. Away from human rights. Not that human rights isn't important, but it was all about making sure that she wouldn't be compared to her predecessor.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Oh, right. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Now now so that she could have her own space and and not all constantly be told, oh, but you know, she was so great. And because that you know, it was traumatic enough to be succeeding somebody who had passed. Yeah. But but I wanted to make sure that she had her own space. And so that's how we got into, you know, as an embassy, we got into the green thing and and into the digital thing. And then of course, you know, three years later, yeah, the the ministry has the intelligence. Yeah. The ministry with an intelligent decision. That sounds like an oxymoron, but okay. Which ministry can you? Foreign affairs. My foreign affairs ministry made made the unbelievably wise and intelligent choice of sending us a PhD in mathematics with with uh postdoctoral specialization in DIY. Yeah, yeah. And so that not only gave us, you know, not only allowed us to be interested, but also to be, you know, to speak with some kind of expertise and authority.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

So that's how we got into all that space. Yeah. And so why green and digital?

The Link Between Digital And Green

SPEAKER_00 4:16

I I've first of all, yeah. Digital is so uh intense in terms of energy that you you have to be you have to be green to not do more damage with your digital. Yeah, right. Yeah, the energy costs. So yeah, the the the that that that's that's the first link. And secondly, the the the more the the more green elements you you start introducing into the way you live, yeah. As an individual, as a as a as a as a as a as an entity or as a society at large. Yeah. That we c we can only make progress if we if we start applying tech to that.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

That's why you have the clean tech and the extraction of the raw materials, exactly. The chips were manufactured, the AI, the cube.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

The only way you increase your your your your your or you you decrease your carbon footprint is by becoming technologically more savvy. So there's a there's a there's a there's a uh a link not just in the process, but because of the the link in the process, yeah, the the way of living also becomes interlinked.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Are you I think I believe you're one of the few correct me if I'm wrong, you're one of the few embassies that are spearheading digital and green, right? In the country or even in the continent.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

At least in in the in the to the extent that we have, yeah. We we uh we retrofitted the embassy to be off, yeah, totally carbon neutral. Yeah. Or at least net zero. I saw that, yeah. Um so then that we're the we're the first in Nairobi. I I do know that we're also the first in the Belgian diplomatic network. But nobody's come to me and said, well, we have one like that in, I don't know, Malawi or in Malaysia or in or in or in Bolivia. No, nobody's come to me to say that they have their net zero embassy there as well. So but I I know for a fact that we're the first in Nairobi and we're the first in the Belgian diplomatic network. So you've built a foundation? We've retrofitted the embassy. Yeah, yeah. Okay, solar panels and water recycling, and we we produce our own cooking gas and we grow our own vegetables hydroponically.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah, taking the focus back to digital.

Data Protection Cooperation With The EU

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Sure. Belgium sits at the heart of the EU's digital policy architecture. So what does each side bring to the table that the other genuinely needs? When I say each side, I mean Kenya and Belgium.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Well, I mean, uh like like you said, we're part of we're part of the EU eco uh space, digital space, which which because we're part of the EU, that gives us a large platform to build on. And it also gives you a large uh menu to choose. It does. It does. And and wherever we're part of that, we're we're happy to be that. I mean, for example, we've over the last couple of years, we've we've worked a lot on there's a twinning project between the data protection authorities in our in our two countries. Okay. That we had, what is it, three or four meetings, at least two here in Nairobi. Yeah. Between the the the experts on on data protection. And I think that went really, really well.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

So and and there the the Kenyan, the Kenyan side also visited Brussels once or twice. Meetings like that or or collaborations like that are part of what is probably going to allow the EU to take what they call an adequity adequacy decision vis-a-vis Kenya. Yes. Which which basically means that your compliance with with data protection rules and GDPR are good enough that that we consider Kenya to be a space equal to the European Union space. Which would which would actually be pretty good. And I think you know, we're we're kind of proud that that we can be part of that with with projects like that.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

There's a bunch of Belgian comp there's just to give you a couple of examples within and outside of the digital space. The first guy who built a hotel in Eten focused on athletes coming to train at altitude was a Belgian guy. Okay. So that was the first athlete hotel in Eton was a is a Belgian hotel. So he saw that. The first carbon neutral hotel in Masaymara is a Belgian guy. And then we have companies like Sulko, which which builds which has built over the over the last 10 or 10 or 12 years, is starting to build the last mile connectivity infra infrastructure for the for the counties. So that's that basically basically the the connection between the counties and the central government is runs on an infrastructure built by a Belgian company. And then we have Odoo. I'm sure you've seen this the signs. You know what they do? Yeah. Do you? Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

No, I don't. Let me not let me not embarrass myself. Tell me what they do.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

They've actually built a platform that gives all the tools necessary for an SME to run itself. So you have your context management, your your procurement, your accounting, your personnel management, your agenda, everything, all in an app that fits on your phone. So you can run your SME from your phone.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Oh, hence why you're saying there's niche niche companies in the Belgium. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

There's another guy who refurbishes computers, sells them affordably here on the market. So you can get a two, three-year-old HP laptop, which is actually a pretty good machine. Yeah. And you can buy that for 25,000 shillings.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

And that aligns with the climate agenda reefer. There you go. That's a circular economy.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Okay, I can I can see. It all links up, right? No, it does. It does. It does. Now onto the question on attracting foreign digital investments. So you've

Tax Policy And Investment Signals

SPEAKER_01 9:40

got foreign digital investments, you've got the regulatory environment. How do you think our our current regulatory conditions can either attract or deter Belgian investments?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Well, the first thing, I mean, the the first thing I have to mention is that a couple of uh months ago we signed a double taxation agreement, which is What's a double taxation agreement? Well, it it it means that that the companies which are or or individuals who are based in both countries can pick in what under which country's fiscal rules they they want to be taxed. Okay. And that and that they don't they then don't get taxed in the other companies. Okay. So that of course is a is a is a huge advantage for companies who are investing here in Kenya or for Kenyan companies who want to invest in Belgium? Okay. That they they don't they don't get taxed in both countries.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

So that's a benefit for anyone looking to move to Kenya. What are your thoughts on policy then? If if regulation has its own well-being interpreted, what about what then do we have to say for policymakers? Is that also sorry, presenting its challenges?

SPEAKER_00 10:40

I mean, especially especially here in Kenya, and if you compare it to other countries on the continent, I think you guys are far beyond uh in terms of awareness on on the needs in the in the policy space digitally. Yeah. Uh I think you guys are far beyond most of your most of your peers on the continent. You're you're actually far beyond most of us in terms of awareness about the need, the policy needs in in the digital space after.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I agree.

What M-Pesa Taught The World

SPEAKER_01 11:05

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

I mean the the the big step, of course, wasn't PISA. Yeah. Which showed how far you can go and how capable you you you you actually are in in applying new technologies to uh to act to actual on the ground day-to-day problems for people. Yeah, yeah. I'll never forget. I mean, I'll I'll I'll never I was living in Tanzania twenty years ago I was I was ambassador in Tanzania. Okay. When Professor Farikom introduced MPSA also in Tanzania and and you know well actually no, they hadn't introduced it yet, but everybody was looking at Kenya and looking at this new thing called MPSA and going, what is the that that that sounds so crazy, so amazing. And then they introduced it in Tanzania. And a friend of mine who ran a he he runs a or he ran a big hospital in Darstan. Okay. A bunch of and in the meantime it's become the the the the re referral hospital for for mother child care. But in those days it was basically a hospital that did orthopedics and and eye surgeries. Okay. And at some point they were dealing with with cataracts, and what they did was they would send out buses to go pick up patients to bring them to Darstan for the operation and take them back home. Okay. And that was very uh, you know, laborious to send out a bus and then it would take days and weeks to fill the bus and then bring them back and then bring them back home. Yeah. When PESA came in, yeah, instead of sending a bus, they would just send money.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Ah, and they would get on the bus on their own time.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

And they would just send the bus fee. Which of course meant that this that whole part of his operation was no longer necessary.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yeah. So they became more efficient.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah. So again, tech solutions to everyday problems. And you guys have been doing that for what, 25 years now since the introduction of Besbus? Yeah. Yeah, you're you're you're you're probably stronger than all that. Those are the kind of stuff that we can learn from you. And that we have to learn from you.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

So Kenyan solutions to global problems. Sure. We have solutions for global problems.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

You have solutions for everyday problems. Everyday problems. Not necessarily global, individual problems on a global scale, yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Now into governance and AI.

AI Governance And De-Risking Kenya

SPEAKER_01 13:12

What do you want to touch on? What are your thoughts on AI? What are you what do you foresee? What do you not want to see? You started the tech plom not started, but you're I don't chair any. You co-chair the Tech Plomacy Connect.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

With with Philip Tego.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah. Any any anything. You're the star of the show.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Well, I mean, like like you said, we're we're we're we're honored to have been asked by Philip to co-chair his connective. And I think that that's a that that's one of those fora where the the fact that you have these conversations is is is unbelievably productive and helpful. Okay. What it helped us what it helped us do is connect with the the Kenyan and through the Kenyan delegation, the uh the many delegations of uh of the G77 during A7 in December. Yes. Where you know the world uh actually adopted a an an AI uh a green AI resolution, which is which was uh which was a landmark, I think is a landmark, and it's and it's gonna be a step, it's gonna prove to be a stepping stone to more important things. And you know, it is uh including because of that conversation that we, our embassy here and and Belgium in general have had with Philip Tigo and Kenya in general.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Uh that that that I think that connection was uh was instrumental for for for that resolution to pass. The the the the conversations we have on governance are probably gonna be also very important. And it it's all kinds of governance. It's it's it's it's it's the the the privacy, data protection, but it's also the funding. Yes. And investment side? Yes. Governance plays in both in both spaces. Yeah, depends. Um and uh especially on the funding side, I I'm I'm fundamentally convinced that we need to keep that conversation going to a point where uh you know let's let's be let's be honest about it. Yes. One of your problems is, and we see you see that in in in many spaces. One of one of your problems is is that the markets are not convinced that that's the risk here in Kenya is that there's less risk here in Kenya or that the risk levels are the same as in, for example, in Europe or North America. And that's just the markets determining that. Yeah. Now, you know, we as a public sector can come in and and and help with de-risking those those situations. Yeah. But but it is it is our conversations and our connection um that that it will contribute to lowering the the risk perception. Okay. There's a there's there, you know, there there are risk factors here. I mean, if you look at if if you look at the Kenyan economic data objectively, like on an Excel sheet, yeah, you will see uh that situation that's constructed. You'll see you'll see a population growth that is outside outside of our norms. Okay. And that isn't followed by growth that covers that population growth. Right. Right. Um you'll you'll see uh an an export base which is and that's that's something that you have to work on, but the you what what you export has low added value. Now we we have to work on adding the value here. Absolutely. You know, you don't you we we need you need to stop exporting exporting oranges so that the juice can get extracted in in in India or in Europe. You need to extract the juice here and export the juice. That's where the value is, yeah. Right? That's where you add the value, right? But all those things you put them all together, yeah, and an objective investor who only looks at the uh at the Excel table will see, well, there's the the you know the it's not they're not that. Yeah. So uh the the and I think that is where your that that is where your progress needs to needs to happen. And it's happening. It is. It's absolutely happening. I mean, look at where we are here. Yeah you know, your offices are in Tatoo City. Yeah. You just just look at this place. It's it's I I love it. This is it. Yeah, right? Yeah. This is this is what you're doing, and you're doing it so you're doing it all over. And of course it takes a while, right? Right. So there's there's there's there's stuff happening in places like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

So we do have our heads above water. And I guess that's why experience such as yours communicating back to be it the EU Commission globally, it's it's say I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Well, it's partially my job, but it's also and it's and it's also actually that's even more so. Yeah. The job of your own diplomacy. Okay. It's not my job. It's not your job. To sell Kenya and Belgium. Yes, and you're right. You're right. You know, I had a I had a conversation with a with a with a with a political actor once. Uh this actually happened in Argentina, but it could have happened here. The guy was asking me, when are you bringing investments?

SPEAKER_02 18:07

No, that's not that's not your job.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

I said to him, my job is to take your money, not to bring you money. I'm here, I'm here to sell my stuff to you. That means you pay me. I'm here to find Kenyans, or in that in that particular case it was Argentinians, to come and invest in Belgium, which means they bring their money to me. If you want to get Belgians to invest, it's your ambassador in Brussels that has to convince the investor to come here. If if you want to take my money, you have to sell your avocados, your oranges, your mattresses, your your your your you know, your tech. You have to sell it to me. That it's not my job to sell that to Belgians, it's your job to sell that. That being said, we work closely together. Okay. Ambassador Vitangi in Brussels and I are are are we we talk to each other at least twice a week on on various things. Um and and a lot of it has to do with with the business climate and and how we how we bring together uh business forces uh in both from both countries.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

So with regards to state security versus digital rights, where are you on that?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Yeah, that's what are your thoughts? That's a good one again.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

We were talking earlier about about the the what's it called? The data protection and the EU adequacy inadequacy, yeah. I think that's gonna be a big step in the in the right direction. Okay. Because it it basically means that we will be considering you know the the digital space in Kenya to be adequate for us to operate in also on in terms of in terms of security. I think there's there's still an issue with with with GDPR, but we're we'll probably be with privacy and data protection. But we're we're working we're working heavily on that.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

An issue on whose end? Our end, the European end?

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Exactly. Well, probably a little bit of both. But again, I mean a lot of it uh a lot of it also has to do with uh I I guess a a a change in attitude.

Stop Exporting Value Added Elsewhere

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Yeah. We kept thinking it was right. Thank you for admitting that. To tell you what you have to want. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Not just do or think, yeah? You have to want.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

If you don't want what we have, you're doing it wrong. That's our attitude. That's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah, we gotta stop doing that.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Thank you. No, no, absolutely. Thank you. No, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

But we have to we have to stop doing that. Um and I think now's the time.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

And I think we can do a deal. This is a real, you know, high-level thinking, uh, you know, high-level idea, but you know, you've been and uh most countries on the continent pretty soon will have been independent longer than they were ever a college. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

And around about the same time, you will also start electing presidents who were born in the independent country of which they're presidents. Exactly. Your previous president was not, your current president was.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Right? Yeah. That's a change. That's a generational change. Different shift of minds. Okay, that watershed, that historical watershed, is the time when we can actually start making, I think we can make a deal. Okay, we'll stop telling you what you want, right? What you have to want. Right? Okay. If you accept that not everything that's wrong finds its its its origin in the colonial period, you've made mistakes in the last sixty years as well. Hey. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. We're just deciding that we're gonna have a different kind of relationship from here on out. Okay, okay. But that means we have to stop telling them what you have to want. And you have to accept that you've made mistakes in the last sixty years.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Right?

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

And when we do that, then Then we can move forward, including in this case. If I look at a company like Odoo, that that that decides that it's it's Africa based is going to be here in Nairobi. If I look at a Belgian company like Kalewa that does a lot of recruiting and and and recruiting of coders and tech experts, four Belgian companies. Yeah. And they're based here.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

You look at a company and it's not a Belgian company, but a Swedish uh it's Swedish guys like Rome. Okay. With their electric vehicles. Which is a Kenyan company, but it's it's Swedes who are who who started it. If you look at a guy like like Loick with his carbon neutral safari camp. Yeah. All that is only possible because it's Kenya.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

It's Kenya.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

And you couldn't do a carbon neutral camp, a safari camp in Belgium. It has to be here in Belgium. But there's no camp in Belgium. So exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

That so so it's because So what you're saying it's because of Kenya that these businesses are innovating and flourishing. Yes. Oh, I I I like that approach. But what about the skeptic who will say that you can no longer innovate in Europe?

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Well, that's not true. No, because what they do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Oh, do is a Belgian company, but it's been in existence for maybe 10 or 15 years. 3 billion euro turnover on apps on a farm. But they decided that their African base is going to be here. It's not just a sales base, it's also There's the culture.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yes. There's the good weather. Yes. There's no internet. There's fresh food. Yeah, exactly. There's well, uh yeah, let's let's discount the rainfall.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

There's the people. There's the people. So we're good people. Even more than all the rest of it, because there's lots of places where there's good food. There's lots of places where the weather is fine.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

But they're not Kenya.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

But they're not Kenyan, they're not Kenyans.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate everything you're saying. How long, how how has the reception around the Techplomacy Connect been from our side? I know I know Ambassador Philip has been very instrumental. You co-chair.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

You do, and and when when when we're tying it back to what we were trying to do, yeah. Well when we have our meetings, I mean the fun thing is you there's the non-Kenyan participants are often public sector government.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Whereas on the Kenyan side, it's private sector. Do you find that odd? No. Well, it's it's it's surprising, but it's good surprising. What's good surprising? Good surprising is that's the way it should be. I mean, there should be less of us around that table.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

But you know, we're we're we're we're we're sending out we're we're we're making sure that the word gets out. That you know, Kenya's the place to that kind of the place to be. Kenya's the place to be. Um and from Kenya, you know, you broaden it, bring it to elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

So you start with Kenya, then we are what's the what's the word? The rest of the continent believes that if they can do it in Kenya, then the rest of us can do it. But our development, what's the word? Our development not ratio, the rate at which we've developed compared to the rest of the African country is very different. Yes. So what do they need to do to be up to party?

Education As The Foundation Of Growth

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Well, there's a there's a there's a couple of things that you were very smart with uh over the years. Uh you you you were very open to private initiative. Okay. But most importantly, your investment in education. Yeah, the skills. I mean I I I moved to Tanzania, so that was my first time in the development space, if you will, in in in develop in a job where development corporation was a was an important part of the of the portfolio. And that was in 2003, so that's like 20 odd years ago. Okay. And you can of of all the sectors in which uh we all work on on development corporation, infrastructure, justice, health, you name it. Yeah. I I've I I actually very quickly became convinced that there's only one that's the top of the list. Which is education.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

You know. I agree. You can avoid somebody getting sick by teaching them to wash their hands. Yes. What's the verb in that sentence? Teaching. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah. Teaching. Right. See? Yeah, teaching. Teaching the core.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Is it the core of everything? Okay. You can't you can't build a highway without an engineer. No. Engineer has to have what? No. Education. Education and skill. You can't build a law system without lawyers who've gone to university and taught the law.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Teaching is the core of everything. Yeah. Education. So always it always comes down to education. And and Kenya, in that respect, was incredibly smart in investigating that from the very beginning. I mean, you know, your first president, your second president, your second. Your second president was a teacher. You know, free uh what what is it? Free secondary school, even? Was kibak's? Yes, Quebec is because I mean no, you've you've been incredibly smart about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

And that's why you've been able to spearhead a lot of the conversations happening on the continent. Run far ahead of the rest of the. And is that why then Kenya's the place for when when I read a lot of the reports from you know World Bank, FCDO, you name a few. There's this Digital Africa Digital Initiative or Digital Africa Initiative. And so and quite a lot of money is committed for that initiative, towards those initiatives, sorry. Where

Development Money Promises Versus Reality

SPEAKER_01 27:50

is the money? Number one. Number two, how does it work?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Yeah, commitment doesn't always get followed up.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Commitment does not always get followed up. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, that's true. Okay. So that's that's just it. Yeah, that's just it. Yeah, it should. Or don't commit. But you get, I mean, often I get I guess you get caught in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Oh. Oh yeah, this is a good idea. Let's let's let's make a promise. And then you go, you go play with the numbers and realize actually, no, this doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Politics is all about the immediate effect.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

But we can't politicize technology.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

It needs to be more honest.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

And why are they not being honest? Because this is tech. This is not, I mean, this is again.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

I think it's it's it's uh it's an it's it's an attitude from earlier from before.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

You know, the true public private partnerships. True public True, let me take them over there. Private public partnerships. Yeah. Or the way we're going in any in any case, right? Yeah. Um in the whole development sector, not just in the tech sector, but in the whole development sector. We're we're we're we're working towards involving the private sector more in in development. Um de-risking investments. Okay. Having the private sector carry out things that in the past have been carried out by by public sector um actors. You know, uh USAID closing down, most of us also regularly reducing our development budgets means that we have to figure out another way to you have to figure out another way to fund your your your future development. And how do you do that? You do that with with uh with a lot

Public Sector Rules Private Sector Builds

SPEAKER_00 29:30

of investment or with a lot of involvement from our private sector. And with the reduced amounts of money that we have, we can help by de-risking that investment.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

I have a concern though, and I understand your governments are changing, funding cycles are changing, how the world is changing. If we allow the private sector to run the show, they're not governed by a public sector, civil servant, public officer's mindset for the people with the people, right? The private sector individual is all about return on investments. Are we let me allow you, allow me to use the word screwed? Are we screwed essentially?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

I I think it's a question of finding the right balance.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Okay, yeah. When when everything is run by the public sector, it's not right either. No. But when everything is run by the private sector, it isn't right either.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

There's a really funny story. We were living in New York in 2012 when Hurricane Sandy hit New York.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

And at one point during the storm, everything went electricity, gas, water. Every utility you could think of. Yeah. Public transport, schools, everything closed down. Okay, okay. The first thing that came back.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

The first thing that came back, you'd be surprised.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Was it internet? No. No? Oh, what was it?

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Public transport. Uh-huh. You know why? No. Because that was the only thing that hadn't been privatized.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Which brings it back to my point. Well, yeah, it does. Of course it does.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

I know that. But what that's what I'm saying. But everything in the public sector doesn't actually work perfectly either. So we need to find a balance.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

What about public sector sorry, what about public sectors who will be compromised? Because if much of the tax the revenue from taxation funds public sectors.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Short-termism. Yeah. Well, because politicians, the long term for a politician is the next election. After the next election, there's nothing. Ah. See? Okay. So in the in the public sector, there's stuff that there's there's challenges as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

So we need we need to find a balance. And when you when you say yes, the one guy running all the satellites in the world, absolutely. But that's that's why we need to, you know, you that's why you need the the public sector is is actually there to do the regulation, not to not to execute.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Let the execution happen through, you know, like let let let the development be executed, be carried out by by by people who actually know that know stuff. And let the public sector be the regulator.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

So you need a skilled workforce who know what they're doing, and the public sector to regulate that workforce.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

But an but a very on and an honest public sector.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Do you think we'll get an honest public sector in this

Social Media Polarization And AI History

SPEAKER_01 32:30

day and age? To wrap it up.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Again. Yeah. Again, something that we need to learn. Politics today is too polarized.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

But it's too polarized, I think, because you can't do gray tones in social media. And politics is all about gray tones. Gray tones and social media. I'm taking that down. Okay. You know, social media can only do black or white. It can't do gray. Okay. And politics is all about gray. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Polarization, social media. Yes. But the foundation is still education.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Absolutely. Absolutely. But then there's another thought.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Let's hear it. What is social media? And what is AI other than more information circulating more rapidly amongst more people? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Think about that. More information circulating more rapidly amongst more people. When was the first time we as humanity did that? The Phoenicians, when we learned how to write. And then when we learned how to print books, that was more information circulating more rapidly among more people.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

In that time period.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah, but it doesn't matter when. We figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah, so we will figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

The difference is that the printing books and learning how to write radio, television. We read about how we figured it out. Yeah. Right now, this social media thing we're living in. Yes. Which makes it scary. Yes. But you know, you you you've got to have confidence in human ingenuity and human intelligence. Okay. Um, you have to have that confidence that we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

We'll figure it out. Okay, that's my takeaway.

The Green Embassy Legacy

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Last question from me. Last question. What are your what's your North Star with regards to the Kenya-Belgium digital relationship? Maybe not the North Star. What would you like to see in a few years' time and say, I keep asking everybody this question. I did that. I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Oi. One one thing. For me here, and I'm 120 days away from from leaving and retiring. So I, you know, I'm I'm kind of thinking about what do I leave behind and what's what's yeah, what's what's my leg? Yeah, what's your legacy? The Green Embassy. The Green Embassy. But that wasn't answering your question because your question was in the in the in the digital space. I mean embryo. What I did behind is that. Okay. Well, which actually shows, and the reason why it's not so it's not so much uh something that you can show off with or anything. No, what it what it does, uh what we did in the embassy shows is that anybody can do something. You you don't have to have I mean you have to have the big projects. Yes. You have to have the wind farms, you have to have the the geothermal, you have to have the big solar parks, et cetera. But all of that works even better, or actually only works if the individual does something as well. I think what we've shown in our embassy is that it can work on an individual level. Yes, yes. You can you you can have the single, you know, the single family household be green, or the office space be green. Aaron Powell And you've proved that. And I've that's what I and that's that's what I want to leave behind. My one of my predecessors was the first one to move the embassy uh to Gigiri. Okay. All the embassies in those days were in CBD.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Look where they all are now. Yeah, they're all in the And the first one was the Belgian embassy? The clergy side of town, yeah. Okay, fine. But still, all right. But they're and they're all there now. Yeah. What I'd very much like to be is that all the embassies follow me and and be uh I hope they do follow our example and and be uh and and turn their uh their workspaces into green spaces because it's also a lot a lot more yeah yeah, it's it's it's fun to work in.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Well, you're you're happy. And also without green, there's no digital if if my workforce are not able to feed themselves, then I'll not have a digital workforce. So yes, you've you've set the trend. Exactly. Well, that's it for me. Thank you so much. It's been great to interview you. 120 days left. That's it for my talk.