Is This Better on a Rewatch? (Dawson’s Creek 2x15) PART 1

Season 2, Episode 15 is a big one—and we’re splitting it into two parts because there’s just so much to unpack. In part one, we focus on three major storylines that really highlight growth, courage, and family dynamics in Capeside.

We break down Pacey standing up to the teacher, an iconic moment of rebellion and confidence that shows how he’s starting to define his own boundaries. Then we dive into Jack coming out to his dad, a deeply emotional storyline that still resonates on a rewatch, and how the show handles both fear and bravery in that moment. Finally, we celebrate Grams defending Jack, a scene that shows unconditional love and support, and how she becomes a quiet anchor in a world that isn’t always kind.

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Be sure to follow the podcast on Spotify so you don’t miss part two dropping soon. Ratings and reviews help more than you know and make it easier for other fans to find the show.

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Full episodes and bonus content are available on YouTube, where reactions, expressions, and behind-the-scenes commentary add a whole new layer to the rewatch experience.

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We’re sharing clips, polls, hot takes, and behind-the-scenes content all week. Come hang out and join the conversation—you know we love hearing your thoughts.

Season two of Dawson’s Creek continues to explore courage, honesty, and the messy ways relationships evolve—and part one of this episode proves that standing up for yourself can take many different forms.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You wanna know how I know I'm getting old? You wanna know how I know I'm getting old? I have a very specific thing that happened yesterday morning. On my way to work, I I didn't have anything for breakfast. So I was like, oh, I'll just go through Jack's because Jack's is on the way to work. And I hadn't stopped in a while and I was like, I'll I'll get a baloney and biscuit. Oh, they don't have that right now. Thank you. Listen to my story. Sorry. So I knew it was limited time. I just was banking on them still having it. So I pulled through and I was like, I want a baloney biscuit or whatever. She was like, Oh, we don't have those anymore. Well, first of all, my bone to pick is you you still got the bologna. You still got biscuits. Just slap them on there. It's not that hard. They got a they got a bologna sandwich on Texas toast. Okay, but my my point is I was like, oh, okay. So or something else. Went up to the window. This is 6 30 in the morning. Mm-hmm. And this little teenage girl, um, I gave her my card and I said, real sweet, I was not in a bad mood, but I I knew it was a limited time, so I just was like, shoot. So I said though, I said, so uh what do you know when the next time y'all will have them is? Is it like this time next year? Like when and she I knew as soon as I said the question, she doesn't know. She said, probably so this is where this is how I know I'm getting old though, is when I continue to try to make conversation. Oh Lord. And I was like, Well, I said, I sure I just love it so much when I was in college. Oh no, you didn't. We would get it, it used to not be a limited time, it was on the full-time menu, and I was going on to tell her this. I said, We used to love it so much. And then I remembered the first time I went to Jack's and they told me they didn't have it anymore. And I was I'm just like telling her all of this, and she's just like, uh-huh. She was not, she didn't look annoyed or anything, but I know in her head she's going, wow. I I drove away. I literally said out loud to myself in my car, she does not know. Welcome to Press Play Again. Two roommates and one remote, the rewatch podcast where we dive back into the shows and movies we couldn't stop talking about in college and probably still can't. We're your hosts, Anna and Megan. Two roommates with one remote, ready to laugh, debate, and maybe get a little too nostalgic as we revisit the classics and discover a few new favorites along the way. So grab your popcorn, press play, and hang out with us as we rewind it all, episode by episode, movie by movie. This was um episode 15. That is the question, so it's part two to episode 14. Be or not to be, episode 15 is that is the question. Read the synopsis for us. All right. Synopsis says, on Dawson's advice, Joey attempts to heal the wounds of her romance with Jack, which has been left shattered by rumors and innuendo. Meanwhile, Jack and Andy's father, Joseph McPhee, arrives in town for a get together, which brings out old family tensions, which leaves Jack confronting his innermost secrets. For the first time in his life, Pacey stands up for what he believes in when he takes on the mean-spirited Mr. Peterson. But the consequences of his convictions are taken or are more than Pacey could have imagined when he's suspended from school and Peterson makes his personal agenda to fail Pacey with unethical means. Pacey then sets out to ruin Mr. Peterson by investigating and challenging his authority with a code of conduct book over his teaching methods. Also, Jen thinks that Ty may not be the guy for her when she sees little amusement in his stereotypical comments, especially over Jack's true sexual orientation, while Graham's is surprisingly understanding and supportive. Okay, we are officially seven years old. Oh god. This episode aired on February 17th, 1999.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

So we celebrated a birthday in between these episodes. It has a popularity rating of number two out of 128. And an IMDB user rating of six out of 128. This is a top-rated episode across the board. Um, so how we kind of not that we disagreed on the last episode, I would not say that. Um, but I think it left both of us feeling a little different, okay, so to speak. I think, well, our ratings were different, obviously. Right. And it kind of left the whole spitting of it all, obviously left a bad taste. And it was it to be continued, so to speak. So what how did you feel going into this episode? Um, I don't know. I think I was I mean I didn't come in with any preconceived thoughts. You kind of forgot it was a part two when you first looked at the title. I did. And um, but I mean, like I told you when we got done, I remembered a lot of what was in it. And I mean, truthfully, like I said, too, when it was over, that felt like a longer episode than normal. There's a lot going on, yeah, but not in a bad way. No, um, honestly, when I think about part one and part two, Pacey is such an integral character in it, even though he's he's not even that much in this episode.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

I mean, he has a big part of it, but he's not in a lot of scenes, right? But when I think about these episodes, he is him and Jack, obviously, but he is who I think about, that storyline. But really, like I forgot all about I mean, even Dawson and Joey going with Jen and Ty to the club. And I remembered that. And I did once we started watching it, but when I think about this episode, that's not what I think about. I forgot completely about the confrontation with Grams until it was about to happen. I remember and I loved it. I can't wait to talk about that. Just I I clearly remember the whole Pacy and Mr. Peterson aspect, even though that honestly, within the grand scheme of this episode, was a blip. It was just I forgot that the dad shows back up in this episode. I mean, just everything. It was it was like, wow, okay, all this is happening. And honestly, Dawson was barely in this episode. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, he's almost in it as much as Pacey. Yeah, if not more. Maybe I I mean I wouldn't I didn't count any other scenes, obviously, but he just it's like through the middle of that episode, Dawson just kind of disappears after the club, after he walks Joey home. He's just kind of disappeared. I know he hasn't. In my mind, as I'm watching it, I it's like I just went, wait, we haven't seen Dawson in a while. And then he, you know, comes back at the end because we're in his bedroom. So he just kind of took a back seat in this episode, which I appreciated, and I don't mean he I appreciate he took a backseat because of how we felt about it in season one. It was just kind of like this, it wasn't like they they integrated him in every scene. He didn't need to be in every scene. He he was not a major character in the Jack storyline at first. So it would have felt weird for Dawson to be in every scene with that. So I appreciate him not being the main character in this episode. I don't know where to start. Where do you want to start? Okay, so we've got Jen and Ty, we've got Jack and Joey, but we've got Dawson and Joey, um, Pacey and Andy, Andy, Jack, and their dad, which is really like Jack's whole storyline this episode, but then we've got Pacey and the teacher also. I mean, you tell me where you want to start. So, okay, let's just start with Dawson. Okay. He he kind of um well, okay, we actually we begin the episode, Pacey is finishing out his suspension. And every time I watch this, I I think to myself, how in the world are his parents not aware he is suspended? They are. I I when I watch it, I immediately think he is hiding at Dawson's, like they don't know he's suspended. Well, okay, but I took his comment about he's staying there to not be like he's he makes a comment about his dad right torture and death and whatever. So to me, I took it as he's staying at Dawson's to basically avoid that or in in a protective manner. I take it that way too, but I guess I take it more as they don't know it all, and if he was at home, they would have to know why he's not going to school. Well, I didn't I didn't pick up on anything that would have made it. I guess it's not said in particular, but because I just can't I can't imagine, and I guess we don't have to read too much into it. The parents aren't relevant, clearly, but I can't imagine. Well, number one, I can't imagine that a parent would not be called. They should have been at the school in the last episode. But I can't imagine them knowing he's suspended and they just let him stay at his friend's house for the entire week. That's why I guess my mind is like they don't know. Well, I took it in a manner of like, even if they did know, and even if they didn't want him there, he's just not home because I don't want to necessarily say it is like fear of his father, but like self-preservation. Oh, for sure. I guess we we both see the self-preservation, we just have two sides of the same coin a little bit of like, do they know, do they not know? That is the question. That's the name of the episode. And it it does not matter, as I've already said, it we don't have to get into it, but it kind of just points to the fact that the parents are really absent, period. Or just they're not in a place, like if if I had done this, well, let's say let's say this shoe was on my foot for a second, like my parents would have come and snatched me up out of that house. Absolutely. Um, that's why I his dad seems to be that way too. He does, but at the same time, think about it. I mean, he's he's run off with the family car multiple times, like he gets away with murder in his own way, okay? So I really feel like in some ways he's probably one of those kids that they know they can't control to some extent, and it's just not the battle you can fight. I know people like that. Do you did you know people that got suspended in school? I knew of people that got suspended. Yeah, I know you didn't, but I I I did not get suspended either. No, no, no, no. I really, but I didn't have any friends. I don't know that well, I think I did, but um for whatever reasons. I don't think I could be totally wrong, but I don't think when you were suspended, you could do the work you were missing. I could be totally wrong about that, but I thought that that became like incomplete and you just couldn't do that work, you couldn't make it up because you got suspended. So that's so when he turns that in, all his work, which I'm glad he did, I'm glad they added that in there. But I it kind of shocked me. Again, could be different school districts, or I could be totally wrong because I was not suspended when I was in school, thankfully. But um I'm glad he did it. Because honestly, like Dawson delivering his homework to him, that's when my first thought was I don't think they had access to their classwork. But again, I could be totally wrong on that, and I could just be assuming. I also never had any students that got suspended, so it's not like I know from a teacher standpoint either. But thankfully I taught elementary, so that would have been pretty bad. That would have been bad. Um no, so he's saying at Dawson's and he's he is talking about his moral crusade. He's watching Jerry Maguire, so that was movie mentioned. Um it did feel like such a long episode. I'm like, wait, that was the first scene. Wow, what's next? Um, he does end up back at school though the next day, and he I felt uncomfortable for him in the classroom when he had to go back to class. Yes. I did too. Um and of course, uh Mr. Peterson starts to talk about you know his poetry assignment that he turned in, he failed him. Yeah. And when he starts asking why, he says, because I didn't like it basically. It's stunk. Yeah. In his professional literature, something or other opinion or literary opinion. I don't know. But anyway, it it's personally tells the whole class from now on you're it's all gonna be subjective. So basically however he feels that day. Correct, his personal bias is what he's grading off of. And I just the uh injustice to that is just in how unethical it is. He deserved to be reprimanded in some form or fashion. He didn't but anyway, you know, he tried and then of course, like we've talked about Pacy tried to turn in his assignments. Yeah, but it didn't sound like he was even gonna do anything with him anyway. No, but he probably threw him away. Right, but the effort was made and the class was a witness to it. So and Pacey kept his mouth shut this time. For the most part. Well, he wasn't yeah, he did ask. Yeah, because he he he asked why he failed him, and then you know, so you have no advice or anything to As the teacher, you have nothing to tell me how to to do better or how to make a better grade, and he says, write better. That tells me nothing as a student. This poor teaching, poor oh my gosh, like disgusting behavior on a human level, in my opinion. I know that if we flip the coin and we look at it from Mr. Peterson's perspective, he is the the starting point of all this. But this kid did just spit in your face, so I understand not welcoming him back with open arms, right? But you are still the teacher, so you have to put all that aside, and he has turned in his work. He is asking you for advice or how to he's looking, he's asking for instructions. He's at well direction and instructions. But like we said in the last episode, this man has not given them any, he just decided when they turned it in. I'm grading you on penmanship, right? But at the same time, too, he makes this announcement to the whole class that they're all being informed that this is how he's grading all of their papers. So it leaves, at least to me, the implication that there's other students that he's not impressed with their work either. Oh, absolutely. And that they're also gonna be subject to this. Uh-huh. And there's a few facial expressions made across the classroom as he's announcing this. So it's not just targeted towards Pacey. Pacey, but it does kind of feel like if you're not happy, you can blame it on Pacy type thing. Sort of, yeah. That's the way because he is Right, but at the same time, I think that he would still be like this, whether or not he had been spit in the face or not. Well he was, because he picked up, I mean, before the that whole thing escalated, he looked at Pacey's and was just like, Your penmanship is terrible. So this is how I'm gonna grade it now is penmanship is part of the grade. Right. It was gonna be that way regardless. He is just a truly miserable human being, and so he's taking it out on whatever trauma he has had in his past, he is taking it out now on the teenagers that he is in charge of, and it's really disgusting and it's despicable. It is Pacy though, then we see him like at the library looking for the bylaws and how teachers should be acting or the the standard they are held to. Um, and we find out like the next day he he's telling the principal that he has all of this this file on the bylaws, the the standards that he has yes, um, that he has broken, that he has not lived up to, and witness testimony essentially from past students. 20 others. Yes. Now, how he got all this in one night, I'm not quite sure. Okay, how many other things about this show do we not quite understand how they've happened or the sequence of events? Don't even go there. I know, but okay. Um, one night, got it. Could he have been doing this all week long while suspended? Well, hang on, he also said that he didn't sleep because she brought up the fact that he was there before 10 a.m. Well, I know before 10 a.m. I know what your school start. I know. Seriously, I it it doesn't even faze me anymore. I don't even touch that part. I really didn't. I mean, I think I have in the past because I'm like, okay, is this a Saturday? Like, what is happening now? But um, oh gosh. I mean, what's even crazier is he he hands it to her and he turns around and walks away. Like, okay, you're not even gonna go to class today, and you're back from suspension. This makes no sense. Was it the weekend? No. I mean, she was going into the school. I don't know. It doesn't matter. So just keep going. So, but I know he stayed up all night, he says this, but then that would mean that all these other 20 people he got in contact with also stayed up all night because how's he getting in touch with them overnight? I mean, unless we are to assume that because the library closed in 20 minutes of when he arrived and he was able to find the book, read everything he needed to, and get out and then called everybody. I have no idea. Find their contact information. Well, I mean, back in the day, people had people's phone numbers. These these are past students, though. These these are people that okay, potentially. It used to be such a thing as a phone book. And you used to have people's own phone numbers because that's the only way they really communicated at the time. True, but let's just forget that we should be suspending disbelief for just a second. And let's just think about how what all this would actually entail, okay? If I were to try to build this file on someone who has wronged me and deserves to be reprimanded, and I only have a night because a library, I guess is this the school library or the public library? No, I I took the implication that it was the public library. Let's just say they stay open till what eight o'clock. I doubt that. I would have thought like six or seven. Okay. Anyways, let's just go, let's say six o'clock. So then he's got even longer overnight. Okay, so six o'clock. First of all, you you don't just have 20 minutes. You could check the book out. Okay. But now you've got to just think I know there's a phone book that you can use to contact people. But how are you deciding who to contact? It's not like you can put a pose a question on Facebook of hey, anybody who's had any trouble with this teacher before, please comment so that I can get in touch with you. Right. You know, like, okay, we're not supposed to question it. I understand. Fictional. Suspend disbelief here, okay? So it is just really heroic of Pacey, but it is wild beyond belief. Yeah. Okay. He does it though. Principal. It's like she almost she's like, what do you want me to do about it a little bit? Well, you're the boss. It's I took it as like she does not want to open this can of worms. I agree. And she tells him, I hope you know what you're doing. But the sad part is what that also says if you read between the lines, is that she's fully aware of how just but here he probably had tenure, which it would be very hard to just fire him. So he would need proof and love. Lots of the showing a pattern and proof of a pattern of this. I I applaud him for the work he did in less than 24 hours. Probably less than 12 hours probably. But I just even though she at the end of last episode kind of was proud a little bit of the intention behind what Pacey did and his apology. I I know she was a little she had a little pride in that for him. Teacher still had nothing done to him. I know what she said to him, but he had nothing done to him. And then now Pacey was gonna just go back to class and be done. But it it's continuing to happen, and he knew I mean it's escalating. They it's halfway through the school year, it's more than halfway through, but they still have plenty of time left, and it was only gonna get worse, and it would continue to happen past them, it would happen to other students, correct? And so I applaud Pacey for taking an initiative and doing something to try to make a change, going about it in the right way this time. Right. I mean, finding enough proof and evidence, not just going to the school board and complaining about this, showing what is happening. He he found a legal way to go about doing it. And he was and he he apologized to the principal for say he said, I'm sorry I went around you, but I've got to do something. Right. And I appreciate him saying that and acknowledging that. Correct. But he also says he's doing the best that he could under the circumstances that he has. So he's gonna go to the school board. He's already sent a copy to every single school board member b again before he's ever even shown up. And we have to think Pacey probably didn't even know what the school board was before this situation. No, much less how to know who was on it. Okay. Okay, Pacey, Pacey, from a personal standpoint, I really think Pacey has a a case of ADD or ADHD where you know you some of us who have it can get in this hyper fixation, hyper focus mode where we dive full fledged all in, and it's like we're lit on fire. We get it all done, maybe within a few hours, but it would have taken a week for somebody else. Now, well, that's what I was gonna say. You're it probably is very true if we're gonna go with the overnight scenario here. But an easy way to fix this to where it's not this is unbelievable that he did all this, would have been to like light him on fire at the beginning of suspension, and then he spends the entire suspension gathering all this. An easy fix. They would not have even had to dwell on it, just be like, see him working on it, like show two scenes of him working on it and Dawson asking what he's doing. But you know it's not as heroic if he didn't do it overnight, it's not. But also, Pacey, the how his how he is in this episode, it's very quiet, it's not like over the top. His character is not over the top and that like loud. He is just very like straightforward, like, I gotta do this, this is what I'm doing. And even when he goes into school that day and sees the note that they Mr. Peterson is not there, he sees him and he walks in the classroom. Yeah, he's not, he still is very calm until he's not. But I under it's like whiplash a little bit of like Mr. Peterson is like, that was the most admirable thing you've done. And I'm actually like insinuating that he's proud of what he did. Well, he tells him not to ruin it with an apology. Yeah, and Pacey's like, what do you want from me? Yeah, it's so so all right. That also leads into him saying that you know you came here to learn from me. And Pacey tells him, and I have, that I've learned that respect is not commanded out of fear, but that it's earned from compassion or having compassion. So then he asks Pacey, should I respect you? Because where is your compassion for ending my career or you for you being responsible for ending my career? That is fault. He is trying to place the blame or point the finger and deflect it at Pacey. But at the end of the day, you, sir, are responsible for your own actions. He's avoiding done, he's avoiding from the get-go. He is retiring early because he doesn't want to face idiot parents. Yeah, he yeah, he's telling what he's done wrong for 30 years. Yeah, because he knows he'd rather eat dirt. He'd rather eat dirt. Well, buddy, go go out. Go for it. Yes. I mean, it is just there's no apology from him in any way about like how he has treated anybody. No, he thinks he's justified. And let's let's take Pacey out of it. Let's let's say that he doesn't even owe Pacey an apology. Let's forget that for a second. Okay. Jack? Countless, at least 20 other students from the past. That's that's probably pushing it. There's probably a whole lot more. Right. I mean, this isn't something that just started overnight. No, and let's also this is just like um hypothetic. It felt weird coming out of my mouth. Sorry, it was like the right word. It is, anyways. Let's let's say hypothetical here for a second, that other parents have gotten involved at some point during this man's 30-plus year career. And he's already calling them idiots to another student. So can you imagine that if a parent called him to discuss something about their child in his class, the tone of voice he probably talked down to them, made them feel stupid and less than like he is the professional and the expert. I I just can't imagine how many people actually, if Pacey had actually had enough time, how many people he could have actually gotten to corroborate this. But at the end of the day, the result would have still been the same. He would have still been the coward that he is, and he still would have tried to excuse himself without having to deal with repercussions or take responsibility for his actions. Yeah. And I do think he owed Pacey an apology. Oh a thousand, he owes more than Pacey. I know, but I but I had said uh just a minute ago, let's take him out of it, but I definitely think he does owe Pacy an apology. Uh Pacey apologized for the spitting, so let's let's forget about that. Pacey apologized for spitting in his face. Right. So what? Oh no, go ahead, go ahead. No, so I was gonna say, like, let's take that out. Like he needed to apologize to Pacey for even all the things he said before that, for just continuously pushing and and just poking at him. And probably not the first time all year either. Like this, we're half more than halfway through the school year. I mean, we've been seeing this pattern going on for a while in this class. I mean, it's just it's been building and building and building. And I mean, he he tries to make the statement that he was gonna retire in six months anyway. I don't believe that. I think this is just his way of trying to just justify and and make it right to himself and move on. But I mean, a a bitter, sour old man like that does not need to be an educator. No, no, all the blame on Pacey and say, You're responsible for my career ending. But that's his narcissistic way of he doesn't see himself as being in the wrong. With his dad, like placing all the blame on him, him, and why can't you just do this and why can't you be like this and you can't even fish right or put the pole in the right place or whatever. So he already has to hear this like at home and now. When when you see kids having to deal with this from all different angles, you just want to say, you are not what they say you are. You are enough, you are a kid, and you don't deserve that. And I look at and we see him when he's dealing with it with his dad, like he's heard it so much and he does carry it on his shoulders. But I really just want to know. I don't know what I think. I I want to know, like, does Pacey feel like he is a little bit to blame for Mr. Peterson being uh well he didn't get fired, ending his career. Well the look of- Will he take it as some blame? Yes, by the look of his face after Mr. Peterson says that to him, his face falls and he looks down at the ground like he's like he's accepting that as something that he's done. Just add it to his Right, but that's when I looked at you and was like, but it's not his fault. No, it's not, and that's really what you want to say to anybody who is have who is who is listening to this repeatedly about themselves. Or I just want to say it is not you, you did not do this. An adult should be taking responsibility for their own actions, right? Were you in the wrong at some point? Absolutely, but he is still an adult and he is still the teacher in this room, right? And that's the danger in somebody like that being in the role of authority that he had, and I do say had, because he is no longer in a place of authority anymore now that he is leaving. But at the end of the day, it is truly dangerous that these people who are supposed to be educating the kids, and if they don't build them up, they're at least supposed to be preparing them for life ahead so that they are able to be successful human beings in the big world as adults. Yeah, and you're literally undermining and purposefully saying hateful things that tear them down and force them to blame themselves for things that that were not their fault. Yes, yes, his actions were out of line for a few things, it's true, yes. But either way, the real problem here still comes back to the root of it being Mr. Peterson. And if they're not saying hateful things, they're grooming them. Right. Miss Jacobs. I know. And so back in season one, Pacey takes all the blame for that to try and save her because he does like to be the hero. Well, it it's an interesting juxtaposition between the two. It they're both English teachers, like you talked about after the show was it is a miracle that these kids understand literature. It really is. But it it's I found it interesting if you weigh both ways that he Miss Jacobs, he saved her career or attempted to, even though she ends up leaving. And I I'm about to make a statement that that sounds almost like I'm validating what Mr. Peterson said, but that's not what I'm trying to say. He's involved in what ends up ending Mr. Peterson's career. Yeah. Um he he tries to save her, but he seeks I don't want to say punishment, but having him held accountable or seeking accountability for him. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um these teachers need to take accountability and responsibility for their own action, both of them. Casey should not be holding them accountable or taking responsibility himself. He is the kid, but yeah. Um, so I brought up his dad. So let's let's move to Canandi's dad.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Shows up because a week after this incident has happened, the counselor has finally called their father. And told him that he needs to leave work and come straight there from Rhode Island. Okay. You now we we when it was not said when the counselor technically called him. So he could have called when it first happened and the dad just didn't come yet. Right. But I kind of watch it as he just called and he came. Correct. And I it it also left me questioning, what do we not know that's taken place in the last week? Exactly. That's what I was getting at. That's why I was like, wait, well, they didn't technically say when he called, but that's what I was thinking too. Like, why call now? Yeah. Things had kind of not died down because we see kids are still saying stuff to him, but Jack is handling it better than Joey. Yeah. Um, so like has something happened that we just have not seen? And Milo, Mr. Milo is has he been trying to call the dad? Who knows? Who knows? But the dad has just now shown up. Andy is ecstatic. Yes. Jack is not, to say the least.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

And the dad wants to take them to dinner. Dad is not worried about the mom whatsoever. Um, he is worried about the image of the family, basically. And Andy, what I got from this is Andy is really afraid of silence and like the uncomfortableness of silence. She is she is worried, honestly. I think she's also worried that um the conversation will turn to Jack and the whole thing. And so she's just I'm on the honor roll, and mom's on new medicine, and just like constantly talking. But I feel like too, she's just trying to do anything for his attention. Absolutely. So, I mean, yes, she's nervous chatter just filling the air in the space because she's afraid of it not going well at dinner in some regard. Because I mean, she you can tell how badly she wants his approval and for him to be proud of her. And you know, when she says later, we want him to be here, we need to do everything we can to make him stay here. So she's trying to essentially win him back to them with all of her accomplishments. And Jack says, you can list all of your accomplishments you want, it's not gonna change anything. Yes, but it's not entirely just her accomplishments because she's talking about her mom's own other medication. So she's trying to paint this picture of like life here is not as bad as it was, or it it doesn't look like it did, essentially. Um, or that the optics are not as bad as you might think. But I mean, we all we obviously know what a lot of this still looks like. Um you know, I've you can feel and see the tension with Jack. And I mean, it was very uncomfortable to hear it brought up that, and I mean part of this was dinner, part of this was after at their house, you know, that bringing up Tim and their dad telling Jack that you don't have Tim to hide behind anymore, and that you know, people actually pay attention to you now, which is a really sad thing to hear a parent say to a child. Um, and then that eventually turns into the statements that Jack makes before their dad is about to leave that you know Tim was the real son and I was different. I mean that's a load to bear just as a kid to begin with, let alone dealing with questionable things internally. I mean, it it left me wondering what was Tim like to some extent. Um I mean, obviously they imply that Tim was the favorite child in some regard, but at the same time I don't know, the dad is just very hateful and did he's just so disconnected as a family member. Does that make any sense? Um, I mean, regardless of whether or not let's say, because do we even know if they're divorced or not? They're not. He just left. Okay, that's what the one's like separated or whatever. I mean, I don't even know if that's that would be officially what it is. He just literally left for work, right? But anyway, I just you know, he he literally acts like he has zero care in the world other than the fact that it just the counselor has called him and and it's and that's not because he cares about his children, that's because he's worried about what this is looking like for everybody else. That's what I was about to say. He's more concerned about the optics, he's very cold. Yes, yeah, not fatherly at all. But then that still leaves the question of if Tim was a real son versus implying that Jack is different and and not, then you know, like was he more fatherly when Tim was alive? And it's just he's so it it it was just such a hard break when Tim died. Like, do you follow me? Yeah, I mean we're also led to believe that their mom do think that that could very well be the case. I mean, I mean, because didn't we learn that their mom didn't start having as much like yeah, trouble until Tim died? Okay, she just couldn't process it, could not move past it or or work through it, I should say, instead of move past it. She couldn't work through it, she blamed herself. It's really sad um that even we have to think about I'm I mean I'm sure Jack has had has been dealing with this longer than since he's been in Cape Side. I I can't imagine that it just all of a sudden happened. He's probably had these thoughts and feelings before. Well, he says that he's if he doesn't say that he's been dealing with it for a while, he's he's saying that it's too much and it hurts. Yes, he can't keep doing this anymore. But my point of that was um even before that, it's like he's not been able to do anything. Forget this, forget this, and what his dad must be thinking about is he's not been able to do anything to make his dad proud of him because he's constantly been in the shadow of his brother. Um, and so it's just really sad that like he kind of wrote his dad off the moment his dad left, and that just makes me really sad. And we see final, finally in this scene when he is breaking down, telling his dad, ask me the question again, ask me again, and he's crying and he says it, and the dad's like, No, you're not. This whole scene. We see Andy finally look at Jack and she can see, she doesn't just see like, oh, he's admitting this, or I I see she sees his pain for like the first time. That this is not just about is he or is he not? This is my brother is hurting from so many different things, and this is just one more thing that I have not even realized he is hurting from. Well, he says, I can't try anymore. Talking about trying to be what his dad wants him to be because it hurts, and then he says, I don't want to be going through this, but I am, and then his dad is telling Andy goes over to him because he's crying, and their dad is like, Stop crying, stop crying, and Andy stands up and says, No, basically, like, get out if this is the way you're gonna be, get out, leave, and the dad leaves. I mean Father of the Year. How does it start when Jack is like, your wife is I don't remember what he says about the mom. He doesn't say she's losing her mind or going crazy. I forget what he said. Your your son died, the the your wife is going, is losing her mind. Your daughter has been on prescription pills for the past two years, off and on. So he's saying all these things, and the dad is so unfazed. Yeah. It it's like it doesn't even register or compute and he doesn't care. No. Out of sight, out of mind. Mm-hmm. He's going back It's not his problem. No, figured out. Now we we see these two kids, these two teenagers who have not looked like more who have not looked more like kids. Than they do in this moment. And I know they're not in real life. They look like just children who need anybody. Yes. And they have nobody but each other. And it is it is sad that they are just alone. I mean, I kept wondering in multiple scenes, like, where's the mom? And then when they're at their house, like we we don't see her. The dad does come down and say, I've got two nurse companies coming to help with your mom. Right. It's like, but money, just paying for things and just taking care of it in that way. That's not what they need. No. They need an actual adult who can help them. My gosh. Yeah. It I can't imagine. I really can't. And I know that that is like an actual thing that people deal with, being the being a child and having to be the adult and the responsible one in their in their home because their parents can't seem to step up and do it, or they have their own demons and struggles that they're dealing with. Um I can't imagine because I did not grow up that way and I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful because it is heartbreaking. Oh gosh. I mean we've got we've got a different version of this within each of these characters. And I say different version truly, because Dawson is his parents are kind of absent, but not like, but he chooses to kind of do things on his own. But he has been raised to be pretty confident and independent. Pacey has no one to believe in him, so forget that. He's making it up as he goes. Yeah, you've got Jen who grew up way too fast in every way possible. And she had parents, but they just didn't. Yeah, they sent her off to Graham's. And Joey is like one that really is closer to the Jack and Andy situation in the sense of she's being raised by her sister, but and being raised is like a loose term because really they're just they're just living together. They're coexisting. They are. I mean, Bessie's barely there. Yeah. I know that's the show, but anyways, it's just like these kids, and we joke about these teen dramas. The parents are no never anywhere. The grown-ups are always gone. And and I know that that's it's written that way, but it's also like sad when you really dive into these characters that like they really have nobody but each other. No, the dysfunctional side of all of it is which is why I think it is so awesome as this show goes on that Grams becomes such a central figure to every single one of them. Because I know like Joey is grateful to Bessie, Dawson does have his parents, but Grams becomes for each one of them, Grams becomes the person that they can rely on, and she is like the constant in each of their lives, and I love that. Yes, which is what I'm so glad we're getting to, which kind of leads us into Graham's in this episode. Yeah, so I wrote an all camp. So I love Grams. Me too. It was so good. So Jen and uh Ty take Dawson and Joey to this jazz club, and the conversation turns to as it does, because this is what's going on in this small town, and so obviously they're all talking about it, Jack and the situation. And he starts talking about it's his choice, and he doesn't want to be if it's a duck quacker walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck, it's a duck. And then he says he talks about fruit fly first. Yeah, he does it. He says, Why does she, if if they are so good together talking about Joey and Dawson, why is she choosing to be with a fruit fly? And Jen is offended, and she's like, What? Don't call him that. Yeah, and so the conversation turns to well, he's choosing this, he this is his choice, and she's like, It is not, and so they have this conversation. I am on Jen's side in the sense of like just defending so that that is not it, it leads straight into I appreciate Graham's perspective of Jack needs not your judgment, he needs your love and your tolerance because he is probably scared and uh very confused and just all the things, right? So if anything else, what he needs most is for people to be there for him so that he can figure out and navigate what he is feeling and going through. Yeah, and Todd just further underscores his hypocritical wishy-washy bible thumping character. Well, and he he thinks he's gonna have Grams on his side where he says, Mrs. Ryan, what is the passage? Yes, what is the chapter? Yeah, what is the chapter that condemns homosexuality as a sin? And she says, I believe it is Leviticus. Yes, yes. And Jen is immediately, uh nope, I don't need y'all. I don't have me. So but then when Graham finally puts her foot down and says, What I have to say is not directed at you, and says what you just said, and then she says, Let's save judgment for someone much more experienced than you. Yeah, it is not that's what we have said before though, you and I have said, Yes, whether you agree with it or not, it's not your place to judge them. Well, I'll answer for everything. Exactly on judgment day. Exactly. But at the end of the day, sitting there and trying to look down your nose and point a finger only makes you look like the fool. Well, to me, a lot of that can can be attributed to uh the word they keep using is his religion. Right. Religion, religion. It's not which I know it's TV, I so I don't expect and even in the context of it when it was written, you know, late 90 90s, early 2000s, all that it it was a different time. I know religion was a different word back then, yes, yes. I mean that's that's what right what I mean, yeah. It wasn't about the connotation has changed a little bit in today's world. Yes, it has. So it But as I'm watching it in today's world, I'm going, man, how did we not? It was very religion is so restrictive and just like rules and yes and and judge and judgment. It it's rules and it's like routines and rituals and like sacraments and things like that. And it's it's not it but to me it focuses way more more on your failures than it does on on God's grace and mercy. It's the incorrect concept of do good, get good, do bad, get bad. And at the end of the day, grace is freely given. Um, I would really love this. Is I would love and we were seven years old at this time, so I don't know that I would be able to find somebody. I would love to talk to somebody who was kind of dealing with what Jack is dealing with. I would love to talk to somebody who was dealing with it in real life and like what it actually felt like in the 90s, like what it felt like for them in the 90s, early 2000s. Like, how scared were they? Did they have supportive family members? Because Jack has been fighting it. I mean, it's not like he has been just trying to hide it, he has literally been fighting it. Correct. And Joey's been denying it. Oh my gosh, she has been denying it more than him. Yes, poor, poor girl. And I say poor girl as in like, come on, girl, stop. Like, I'm cringing at you. It is so uncomfortable. Cringing at the both of them. Yes, yes. But again, he's just trying to fight it, and he's trying to convince himself that it's not true. She is also, though, trying to convince herself. The conversation between Joey and Dawson, though, and he takes her home and she looks at him and says, Am I sexual? Now, I underst I understood her. Like, I understood this conversation that Joey's having. Would I have worded it that way? No. Like at that age, I would not have asked it that way. But I get what she was saying. It's what we said in the last episode of like, is it me? Did I do this to you? You know what I mean? Like, did I do this? Right. Something wrong with me. Right. And she's having this whole episode is her like dealing with her own emotions of it. Because it would not be realistic for a 15 or 16-year-old to immediately put their own feelings aside and just be like, What can I do for you? It wouldn't be realistic for a teenager to do that. So it is realistic that she's having her own battle of like, what does this say about me? Yes. But Dawson's response, this right here. I think I'm gonna separate my MVP into two different scenes. One just being my favorite scene of the episode, and one being like MVP, give it up for him. Give him his flowers on this, is when he says back to her, you are sexual, but the way he says it is it's in your wit, it's in your intelligence, it's in your feistiness, it's in your anger, it's in the way you move. So it's not just the way you look. Yes, the way he's describing her. This is him describing somebody he loves and what he loves about her. When he described what he loves about her to her dad in the season one finale, I was like, stop it. You could be talking about a stranger on the street. This right here, though, was like he he knows her, and this is what he sees when he looks at her. It's not just physical, it's in the way you move your body, like the classiness of you and your your wit. And I just loved every how he described her and how he answered her. It was my favorite. Oh my gosh, I loved it. It was good, and I I agree. I totally appreciated the fact that I mean I made a note. He tells her all the reasons that she is sexy, and that basically outlines it that it it's not physical things that he really names, and it's the stuff personally. What I appreciate is it's things that won't fade. It's what it's things that really just get stronger with her, yeah, and it continues to bloom. Yes. Um and she grows more into each one of those things as the show progresses when she finally starts to see uh that she is more than what she's been giving herself credit for, which her and Pacey gotta work out their own things in that area. But he also asks her why she chose Jack. Yeah, it's not why he chose you, right? It's why you chose him. Because going back to the scene at the jazz bar while they're up dancing and Jen and Ty are talking, and he's like, you know, if they're such a good couple together, why aren't they together? I mean, it it is still a question because so two of my favorite scenes in this episode were when Ty goes up to play the piano and you've got the three Jen, Dawson, and Joey sitting at the table. Yes, this is my favorite scene. Yes, yes, it was I wrote in all caps. I love this scene. It was a breath of fresh air. Yes, it's also part of a main part of why I gave it the rating for this episode that I did. Okay. But my other favorite episode or scene in the episode was with Grams. Yeah. So those are my two favorites. Um, but going back to the scene there, you know, it is a question, and we've we've been hearing it and seeing it for the last couple episodes where it's like Joe, I mean, Dawson makes the joke that you know, I'm sitting here between two women who dumped me. I'm pathetic. And you know, they they've had at least one round of the usuals to drink, which is humorous. And that's one thing that I remembered about this episode from the time that we'd watched it, or yeah, the one time I've seen it before was you know, I mean, yes, we've seen them drink on this show before, but it just cracks me up that somehow they're getting away with ordering a round of the usuals. And you know, Ty Ty's the one who says it first, he goes up on the stage to play this piano, and then you know, they're laughing about this situation because then they all start talking about each other's love lie. Well, Joe Jim says he's got issues, and Joey immediately says he's perfect for you, and they just laugh. Yeah, it's so funny, and then she says something about well, you know, my boyfriend might be gay. Oh my gosh, yes, I loved it. It was like core friendship or the like, oh my god, it's like if y'all could all get out of your own ways and out of your own rear ends, y'all could be the best group of friends in the whole wide world. Absolutely. That's where we're hitting pause for today because clearly we had a lot to say about this one. We didn't want to rush through it, so we're splitting this episode into two parts. Trust us, you're going to want to come back for part two because things only get more chaotic, more dramatic, and honestly, more unhinged from here. Make sure you're following the podcast so you don't miss when the next part drops. And if you're watching on YouTube, hit that subscribe button so it shows up right away. In the meantime, let us know your thoughts. Are you on our side or are we totally off base? We need to know. Thanks for listening to Press Play Again, two roommates, one remote, and we'll catch you next time for part two. Roll the credits. Press play again, two roommates, one remote. It's fully DIY. Editing, us, producing, also us, recording, yep, still us. Posting it everywhere, shockingly, us again. Two roommates, one remote, zero team. So please type accordingly. Thank you very much.