Depression: The Dangerous Lies Your Brain Tells (Part 2)

"The second I feel that I am cured and it no longer exists, is the moment that it invites itself back in." In the conclusion of our powerful conversation, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor (LPCC) Aja Chavez joins host Terry Maguire to move beyond symptoms and into the real work of recovery. We tackle the "uncomfortable conversations" that save lives, including how to decode the "FINE" acronym and why you must directly ask about suicidal thoughts.

Find mental health and addiction treatment near you: https://recovery.com/

Aja Chavez brings both professional expertise and the lived experience of surviving a 2008 suicide attempt to discuss depression as a chronic condition that requires long-term management, much like diabetes. This episode provides a practical roadmap for those feeling like a burden, explaining how medication provides a "floor beneath your feet" and how to build a personal "wellness wheel" that incorporates therapy, spirituality, and even the smallest moments of joy. Whether you are struggling to get out of bed or trying to reach a partner who is pushing you away, Aja’s blunt clinical insights and compassionate perspective offer a way forward.

About Our Guest: Aja Chavez, LMFT, LPCC, is a clinical expert specializing in adolescent mental health and crisis intervention. She is a dedicated advocate for lowering barriers to care and helping individuals rediscover their worth through evidence-based therapy and holistic wellness.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – [Intro: Why Depression is Never Fully "Cured"] 

01:04 – [Review: Laziness vs. Clinical Depression] 

05:54 – [The Lies Depression Tells: "You Are a Burden"] 

09:28 – [Why Therapists Don't Give You a "Lies vs. Truth" List] 

12:36 – [How 988 and Crisis Hotlines Actually Help] 

14:26 – [Managing Depression Like Diabetes] 

17:22 – [Decoding "FINE": F***ed Up, Insecure, Neurotic, Emotional] 

19:25 – [How to Support Someone Who Pushes You Away] 

22:42 – [Finding Free and Low-Cost Mental Health Resources] 

27:02 – [Why You Should Never Say "At Least..."] 

32:01 – [The Power of "Wellness Wheels" and Small Joys] 

35:50 – [Medication: "Do You Want to Be Pretty or Dead?"] 

42:26 – [The Role of Prayer and Spirituality in Recovery] 

47:31 – [The Safest Move: Asking Directly About Suicide] 

❓ Questions the Video Answers:

1. Is clinical depression a permanent condition? 
2. How can I help someone with depression who refuses help? 
3. What does the "FINE" acronym mean in mental health? 
4. Why does depression make me feel like everyone is better off without me? 
5. How do I find therapy if I don't have insurance or money? 
6. Can I use the 988 crisis line if I'm not in an immediate emergency? 
7. Does depression medication change your personality or make you a "zombie"? 
8. How can I tell if my teenager is depressed or just being moody? 
9. What is a "wellness wheel" and how do I build one? 
10. Is it okay to ask someone directly if they want to kill themselves? 
11. Why shouldn't I tell a depressed person they have "so much to be grateful for"? 
12. Can prayer and medication work together for recovery? 
13. Why is irritability a sign of depression instead of sadness? 
14. How do I support a partner when they get mean or defensive? 
15. What are "glimmers of joy" and why do they precede hope? 

#depressionrecovery #mentalhealthsupport #988lifeline

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

The second I feel that I am cured and it no longer exists is the moment that it invites itself back in.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Asia Chavez is a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional clinical counselor.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Okay, I gotta stop you right there and say, how as a therapist do you connect people to hope when everything feels so hopeless when you're deeply depressed? Why would I believe you? Welcome to Recoverable. I'm Terry McGuire, your host. Today is the second part of our conversation about depression with licensed therapist Asia Chavez. We've talked a lot about the symptoms. I want to talk about how we provide support and help for somebody who has depression, how we ask for it if we need it ourselves, and how it's treated so that I can get a better understanding of therapy, meds, and the things that are neither of those, which are also helpful. So let's start by quickly reviewing what depression is and what it is not.

SPEAKER_05 1:04

Um let's start with what it is not. It is not laziness. We talked quite a bit about that and how it is quite different. We talked about there, you know, we have a DSM diagnosis, and there are all of these symptoms that show up that allow us to uh differentiate and diagnose someone with their uh a number of different types of depression. It's also not just persistent sadness.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:31

Depression is something that impacts all areas of functioning in our lives. It is a medical condition that either has a huge impact, inability to function. It might have a little bit less of that deep, deep impact, but still has an effect.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

So some have a milder form that's persistent. Depression can be fatal if not treated.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh we spoke a little bit about my experience with that and how it got me alone and it almost got me dead. I'm someone who survived a suicide attempt in 2008, and it can be fatal. Um, and there are these something that can make understanding our own experience with depression or observing it in someone else that can make it really confusing is because there are all of these different types. There's depression that kind of comes and goes. Um, there's a cyclical pattern to it. There's depression that is coupled with mania. There's depression that is just pervasive and persistent long periods of time. There is depression that takes someone down at their knees and it maybe looks and and we can see it and it is clear that that this person is not well and not okay. And then depression can also show up with someone who is very high achieving and everything looks perfect and pristine on the outside. And yet there is this um, yeah, you do the right. Because like we we can, I I myself have experienced that. We can feel that. It shows up in all different types and all different forms.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

So, given the different presentations, how does somebody know if they have depression or if somebody they care about does?

SPEAKER_05 3:18

I think it's the impact and the shift that it has on our lives. It is for self. I'll talk about self. Um, it's the thought process that comes with it. It's not just the, if I'm having a bad couple of days, I'm feeling really tired, I can't get out of bed. Sometimes we have that when we've like pushed ourselves too hard. It is this intersection of the biopsychosocial intersection of the thoughts of for me, depression. Depression was like just a not a nice uh started off like, hey, I'm gonna give you this like sweet, comfortable place to come and numb out and check out. Um, but then it it all it became louder and it became like uh questioning my work my worthiness. And so that those the thoughts mixed with the the physical aspects of it, maybe it's the uh the sleep or the diet or the heaviness. Like I just I can I'll never forget the like deep weighted heaviness that depression would have on me. Um, and then the moods, right? There's like the the darker, deeper moods that are all kind of combined that let me know. This is depression, babe. Um observing it in others when we're looking at it in others. We're looking at a shift in their normal kind of natural way of being. Um, it's not always going to look like sadness. You and I talked about how it shows up as irritability. I'm not kind when depression starts to set in. I want everyone to go away and I want to make it really clear it's their fault.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Oh, yeah. Cuts the nose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:59

Not mine. And it might be a quick, like, whoa, what is going, what is going on with my partner or with my child? This is so different. Or it might be a slow kind of deterioration that we're observing. It might look like somebody not wanting to get up and go to soccer practice, or somebody um not wanting to come downstairs and watch the shows that they normally want to watch.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

The change in what is normal for someone.

SPEAKER_05 5:26

Yeah. The change. The and and it's really tough with teens because like that's changes every minute.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:32

It changes every minute.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:34

Right. Um it's it's tricky. There's not like a one fit, a one size fits all answer when we're explaining to someone how to observe and how to help someone, a loved one who is struggling with depression and for self either. It's it can be really, it can be really confusing.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yes. This podcast is sort of premised on asking the most asked questions on the internet, but I'm gonna completely change that right now because I want to talk about a question that wasn't, isn't asked, isn't searched often. Because I went through like the top 40 questions related to depression, and not one was about the thoughts. And I know from my own experience and I know from the people I've interviewed that that is a really serious, I think it's the worst part. I can live with the other symptoms. And I mean that also literally. I don't like them. I don't like anything about it. I just hate depression. But the thoughts. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about the common lies that depression tells us. And and to somebody listening, I bet they don't even understand it is a symptom because we're not taught that. But that you're a burden that that you'll always feel this way, that nobody understands. That you don't, of course, you're not gonna reach out and seek help or ask for help because nobody's gonna help you because nobody cares. And they'd all be better off without you. Those are huge. And they're so convincing. And it's just on a loop. That's why I slept so much. It was just to shut it up. But so, so let's talk specifically about the lies and the thoughts that are a symptom of depression that somehow never seem to make the lists in a helpful way.

SPEAKER_05 7:16

Oh, you named so many of those thoughts that are on that loop. And I'm smiling, and it's not because I think that this is fun, but it's every time I smile like that, it's like that deep relating. We don't talk about those thoughts because we are deeply ashamed of them. It's like depression showing up in one more way of silencing us. When we can be silenced by shame, Brene Brown talks about that being the petri dish for it to grow and fester and really become embedded in a part of who we are. The thoughts that you named, when I'm working with a client, it takes us a while to get to that point where they are able to even identify that those thoughts are not this normal, natural, inherent, innate way of thinking about themselves, that it's like something else has shown up and taken over. It's hijacked that brain. Yes. And it is, we don't talk about it because I think we believe, one, we believe that all of those thoughts are true. The I am not enough, I am a burden, I am the only one in the world that feels and experiences this. And I feel and experience this because there is something innately wrong and flawed with me.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

100%.

SPEAKER_05 8:49

I am going to hold on to this secret. I'm not going to let anyone see it because evolutionarily, if I do and I am separated and I no longer feel a sense of connection and belonging, I'm dead. Now, that's tricky with depression because depression kind of wants us alone and it wants us dead. Right? That's what I tell myself. That's how that's that's depression's hold on me. It wanted me alone and it almost had me dead. I see that in so many clients and others that I work with, that process of getting them separated.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

So you're a therapist. Why isn't there like a list in a room that says these thoughts are symptoms, not truths?

SPEAKER_05 9:28

Well, hey, that's a great question. Maybe that's something that we need to create because we are so focused on. I'm gonna, I'm gonna see if I'm in a roundabout way of answering this. We in our society, man, we don't want to talk about those thoughts. We actually don't even really want to talk about feelings, but we are very willing to talk about our physical symptomology. I will tell you that I have a headache. And I will tell you that my stomach is churning. And I will tell you, I'll tell you all of my physical symptomology that I'm experiencing. I'm probably gonna try to justify it and name it as some sort of physical ailment, right? I'm not gonna equate them at all with anxiety, depression. And we are just very accustomed to talking about the physical representation of internal struggles, but we have no real true emotional literacy or and I'm someone of the generation in the 90s where we had like the counselors came in and they showed us like our personal space bubble and we talked about feelings like sadness. We still very much struggle with the verbiage, the insight, the ability to say, um, hey, these are the thoughts that I'm experiencing, these are the feelings that I'm experiencing. We're really good at talking about physically what we're experiencing. And I think that maybe going back to your question of like, why as a therapist don't we have this list of questions just kind of like on our thing you might be thinking, so it's just out there. Yeah. I mean, I think that that is a great idea. Um, as a clinician, many times we don't want to limit right it down to I'm someone who who would do this. I might look at that list and say, well, that's not exactly what I think. And so, oh, I must not have not me. I must not have um depression. But I think that we, I think that we we do need to address the thoughts because the thoughts are for me what took me down.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Ugh, the worst.

SPEAKER_05 11:28

It's like we were talking about anxiety before. The feelings, the physical feeling of anxiety, I cannot tolerate. I will do anything to figure out a way, maneuver, manipulate to get rid of those feelings. The depression feelings, yeah, I don't know. I kind of like them. I don't mind feeling heavy and like I can tolerate and live with that. The thoughts, that's the part for me too that I cannot escape. I could not get away from. I needed to silence and shut them up. That's what for me ultimately had me thinking like, hey, suicide is an option here, because this has I have to make this stop. Because depression, not nice. Not nice up there in that internal dialogue. A real jerk really lies to me, had me believing I was the most worthless human being on the planet.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

So I think this would be a good place to just mention, if you're relating to those thoughts, that there are things like 988. What should somebody who's saying, like, so while maybe one of them isn't, um, you know, those other things, I think them all the time. What, what now? What should they, where should they go with that? A professional. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:38

988, 988 for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

If there is a 988 being the crisis hotline, yes.

SPEAKER_05 12:44

Yes. You don't have to be on the verge of a suicide attempt to utilize that hotline. These are folks who are trained to help you understand you, your thought process, what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, and put your hand in the hand of someone else who can help and guide you from here. It can be that you maybe have had fleeting thoughts about wanting to die or feeling hopeless or feeling like a burden, or some of what we're talking about today, you're starting to relate to and you don't even know where to begin. When you are riddled with depression, can you imagine how difficult it is to identify a therapist, pick up the phone, get on the internet, whatever you need to do, that process alone. Oh, no.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

It's a lot of steps if you can't shower.

SPEAKER_05 13:34

It's a lot of steps. Yeah, if you cannot get out of bed. 988 can be wildly helpful. It can save your life, it can save a loved one's life. They are there to help guide every step of the way, find, help you find resources, help you just maybe feel validated or seen.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yep. And they have heard it before. I worked at a crisis line. Yes. It helped a lot to know what I have called them as well. That no matter what I say, they're not gonna be like, I'm sorry. What you're thinking what? They're gonna be like, mm-hmm. Here, I hear this all the time, not in a dismissive way, but in a it's familiar to me. So don't feel so other and so flawed. Need to say that. That's really important because it is just, oh, I hate to follow up with this question, but it was on the internet. Is depression something that goes away? Or should we be thinking of it like diabetes or something that needs to be controlled and managed?

SPEAKER_05 14:26

I really wish I could say yes. I really wish for every single person that is deeply struggling with depression that I could say, you're gonna take some pills and you're gonna do some CBT therapy and it will go away. It's no, it's not something that we are ever fully cured. Now, I think of it as something like being in remission or having these phases of really being in wellness and well-being and and uh joy and connection. Depression is something that kind of remains with us for maybe through the entirety of our lives and it's gonna look and feel differently. It will have its ebbs and its flows and its evolution. Um, but I I, as someone who it took me down so hard, I don't have the luxury of believing that I am like cured from depression. The second I feel that I am cured and it no longer exists is the moment that it invites itself back in because I stopped doing all of the things that I need to do to keep myself, to keep depression at bay and to keep myself well.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Preventive measures. And it's interesting because I we had a foot of snow this week and I shoveled and I hurt my back. So it's like I know I have warning signs, right? There I call it like it's like a the string on a base that goes bang and I go, oh, I have to be more careful. 30 seconds later, I forget because I have a million things to do and I just keep going. I have learned over the years, like I'm gonna feel like I feel right now if I don't pay attention to it because I ended up hurting it. I don't do that all the time with the depression. No, but it is essential to say, like, okay, okay, you know, I'm I'm I actually just thought maybe it would be better if I wasn't here. Or driving, you know, I remember driving just thinking all the different ways I could stop all this right now. I know I'm harping on this, but I I just feel so strongly that if we can notice those early warning signs and do something about it, reaching out to 988 and we define what a crisis is for ourselves. It doesn't have to be, you know, some alarm-level thing. It's like I'm I'm not me. I'm not me right now, and I don't like what's happening in my body, I don't like what's happening in my head. I need to talk to somebody and they're there. Let's shift focus. People wanting to support somebody in their life with depression. Given how isolating depression is, real good chance that if we go up to our partner, our child, whomever, and say, Are you okay? I'm fine. Leave me alone. I I've said it a million times. I'm fine, you know? So if you're if you're concerned about somebody in your life, what is a way that's more likely to work that we can reach out to offer some support?

SPEAKER_05 17:22

Okay. Have you heard the acronym for fine? Oh no, but I'm gonna try to guess it. It starts with a curse word. I won't say the curse word, but effed up, insecure, neurotic, and emotional is like one of the so my cue when I hear someone say, I'm fine, and I and I might coach parents, work with teens a lot. Um, so I might coach parents in saying, when we ask that initial question, right? How are you doing? We want to hear the answer. I'm fine. We want to hear that. We want them to be fine. We want them to be fine. We want our coworker to be fine. We do. And most of us, unless we are a trained clinician or we've been through this, we don't actually know what to do or say if someone says that they're not fine. So when we get that fine, we go, okay, great. Yay, I'm done. Yeah, okay, yeah, great. You have a gut instinct.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:16

We've lost. So many of us have lost our internal knowing, our internal gut instinct. If you are asking someone, how are you doing, you already know. You probably have already seen some indicators that they m they might not be feeling like themselves. That there might be something off, but there's nothing we want more than to be seen and to be understood and to be heard. And yet when someone comes in and sees us, we immediately reject it. I'm fine. Right. It's fine. I'm fine. So how do you get past it? You don't stop there. Yeah. Hey, I don't think you're fine. And here are the reasons why I'm saying this. You give the evidence.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

I've noticed this and this as being different about you.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Yeah. My observ this is what it's felt like being in a relationship with you lately. Now, we all go through times of I'm not saying I need you to be happy and joy-filled and toxic positivity and all of that. There has been a shift that I have noticed. I want to talk about that. If you're not open to talking about it right now, right? Because we are prepared as the parent, as the partner, we prepare ourselves to go in and have this conversation and we identify the right time at the dinner table with the rest of the family. There is not the right time. Yeah. They're not prepared. So it might hit them as a, oh shoot, I gotta hide this. This has to, I have to keep this secret.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

I let it show.

SPEAKER_05 19:52

I let it show. So we go and you have the initial conversation. I'll I'll tell you this. When someone asked me that, I would get mean and I would hurt people to keep them away. Right. That was my defense mechanism. I'm gonna do something that's going to somehow sabotage this relationship. So you stop seeing my pain, you stop seeing my struggle, that's gonna happen. Your teenage daughter or son, they're gonna potentially blow up on you. They might distract you with something over here. It's not, I'm not, it's because of you. It's because you and dad are always fighting, blah, blah, blah. We're gonna find our we're gonna find all the ways to try to distract somebody away from actually stepping back into that difficult conversation. Step back into that difficult conversation. Do not let their initial attempts at pushing you away, hurting your feelings. No, everything's totally fine. Look at I'm getting straight A's. I'm that was me. I'm getting straight A's. I'm still playing soccer. Nope, everything's fine. Be willing to be uncomfortable in those conversations. They will be uncomfortable. Be willing to say things that maybe might hurt the other person's feelings. Be willing to get a therapist.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

I agree. And I know that not everybody has access to therapists, and I know that not everybody can afford it. So I guess I'm speaking to those who can, which seems a little wrong. But I I introduced therapists to my children at a very young age. I said, if you have trouble with your feet, I will bring you to a podiatrist. Your eyes, I'm gonna bring you to an optometrist. Your feelings, I'm gonna bring you to a feelings doctor. Because there will be some times that I'm not the right person to have this conversation with. I maybe you don't want to tell me. Maybe it involves me. I'm your mom. I'm the big bad mom, you know. Who knows why? But you, if something's a little bit off, which is pretty much all I said, was like, let's let's just let's just bring you somewhere where you can talk to somebody who isn't me and see if it helps.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And I think it did. It was also a safety thing for me because I was like, I don't want to get this. Wrong. I was afraid. I'm always afraid. It's part of my diagnosis. But you know, I just think that that is a really important thing. And it was just something's just off, sweetie. Let's just get this checked. Because you would with any other health issue.

SPEAKER_05 22:14

I think it's really, I think what you named is the accessibility to resources is something that so many folks in our country struggle with. And so that when we're looking at barriers to care, that is something that many folks, maybe that are listening to this, are going to say, well, that's nice for you. Right. You have the resources to be able to afford therapy or insurance covers it, or um, the geo, wherever geographically where you are. There is so much being done to provide access to care in our country, even in very rural areas. Please, please, please don't allow the belief that you can't afford it or that you don't have access to it to keep you from seeking it out. And that's again something that 988 can be really helpful with is helping you find resources in your area. There are a lot of remote options. There are a lot of very low cost or no cost options. I did my practicum at it was supposed to be low cost, but um it was like we were no cost for everybody. We did phenomenal therapy. Um they got really high quality therapy for no cost. How do you find that? You have to be willing to ask. Schools are typically um maybe a first place to start. Speaking to a school counselor, if you are in college, go to your college counseling. If you have an EIP program in your place of employment, seek that out. Um, the the internet is a good and a bad place to look for that. I believe what you all do here at recovery.com, there's, you know, you you you find access to resources for others. It's being willing to do a little bit of the research and kind of navigate through some of the murky muckiness of it. Psychology today is a great place to go on and and look for clinicians in your area or that provide, you know, sliding scales or low cost.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

So we both know that when you're in depression, you can't do that. You can't do that. Yeah. So so how do we help somebody and say, like, and and maybe that's it. Maybe it's an ask, maybe it's specific, like, I just need some help finding a free therapist. I need help finding a support group, I need help finding something as opposed to, yeah, you know what, help me. I mean, if somebody's not able to say, I'm going to do an internet search and then I'm going to compare and contrast the offerings of several therapists while I decide what I can not actually even afford, it that's just, it's not going to happen. So, how do we help somebody find something they can access and afford for them or with them?

SPEAKER_05 25:00

Many times it's not going to be the individual who is struggling themselves where depression has kind of taken over, that are going to be able to do the seeking and the navigating. It's really going to be asking someone to help you. Can you, if you have someone in your life that you can let in? Some folks might be watching this or listening and thinking, I have no one. There's no one.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

You would have said the same.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

I would have said the same thing too. I was surrounded by people who loved me. And that's not the case for everybody. I mean, it it really is the case for some folks that come into care where they have they are very isolated and they are very alone in life. And I understand that. If there is someone that you can invite in to help you and you can ask, it's going to take the energy to ask. It's going to take the energy to be along for this the seeking. If you can, uh please do that. Please ask someone for that help to get you at least into the care of someone who can get you on a path. Yeah, that's heavy, right? That's I is, it's hard. I think about I had a career, I had friends, I had a family that deeply loved me. I had an EAP program at my work that I didn't utilize, by the way, because I didn't think that I had depression, because it had lied to me so much. Um and I still felt so alone. I felt so lonely in my experience. I felt so alone. And I mentioned before, I had a therapist. I wasn't even telling my therapist that I was struggling with this. I I I really empathize with the folks that um really are in a place of being alone and really don't have the easy access to resources. There is hope.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Okay. I gotta stop you right there and say, you know what it feels like to not have hope. Yeah. How as a therapist do you connect people to hope when everything feels so hopeless when you're deeply depressed? Why would I believe you?

SPEAKER_05 27:20

I don't ever come in from a place of there is hope in those initial. I'm saying this now, maybe just to try to connect with somebody. But as a clinician, I start to help them see that for themselves. It's almost like I talk about like a Jedi mind trick kind of way of going about it. If I were to come in and do that, um Brene Brown talks about the um silver lining of things. Hey, at least you still have your job. Lovely, at least. Yeah. At least she talks about someone who's experienced a miscarriage. At least you know you can get pregnant. Do not ever start a sentence with at least for anybody who's in struggle with anything. Silver lining it isn't going to help. Pointing out all of the things that someone has in their life isn't going to be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

You have much to be grateful for.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

You have so much to be grateful for. That makes us feel even worse.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Right. That makes us feel and ungrateful to all the other things that make me not a good human. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 28:22

Yes. Here's one more piece of evidence of why I suck. Why I am unworthy, all of the things. As a clinician, what I do, or as someone who is, let's say you and I were really good friends, right? And you're going into a phase where depression's getting real big and it's getting real loud. And I can see that. And I want to be helpful. I might just start quietly showing up. I'm going to show you with my actions and my evidence that you are someone worthy to show up for even when you're like a blob on the couch. I'm going to start to maybe talk with you about, and please don't talk with somebody who has really, really deep crippling depression about all the things in the future that they have to look forward to. That sends us into panic mode. I can't even get out of bed to wash my hair. How on earth am I going to interview for this job in two weeks? I'm tapping it. It's the slow, subtle showing up. As a clinician, I start off by asking someone, does it feel like this or does it feel like this? Or does it feel like this? Does it feel like a heavy-weighted blanket laying on top of your brain or your body? Or does it feel like the moment from the moment you wake up, you want to punch somebody in the jugular and every single thing makes you so mad that you, you know, like I start doing those types of conversations to have someone tease out for themselves what it looks, what it feels like. And then we start moving towards once there is this I feel seen, someone gets it.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

And by presenting those things, you're saying these are what I've seen before. So it's like, wait, it's not just me.

SPEAKER_05 30:18

I can't come in and say, I'm gonna normalize your experience for you because depression will be like, get out of here. Right. We are trusting. Done listening to this. I cannot trust you. But it's in the presenting of what we're presenting is you're not alone in this because so many others have exel, so many others have experienced it that sometimes it might look or feel like this. Is that your experience? Is that the case for you? If they don't have the verbiage to be able to come in and say it for themselves. So it's this building up of this insight and awareness, being seen, being able to then communicate it. And then we start to move into that in and of itself starts to build hope. Someone gets me and sees me. When when they start being able to share those horrible thoughts that we were talking about, you're a fat, ugly, whatever. Um, that's depression many times, by the way. When it starts to attack your character or your your physical appearance or your you as a human, then it's starting to build in these, you know, tell me, tell me something that maybe used to bring you. It's not like, okay, we're gonna identify all the things that are gonna bring you joy and are gonna bring you right. Like you're jumping the gun. You're you're going too far. Yep, too fast. Like, hey, tell me something that used to um give you the like warm tingly. You know the warm tingly? Do you know the warm tingly what I'm talking about right now?

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I think of it as a sip of cocoa, yes.

SPEAKER_05 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

You know, it's the like feeling. I did a meditation this morning where it was anyway. And for some people, it might be like, oh, when I pet my cat. When I water my plants, I feel that. Or, you know, it's some it can be something very small.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah, surprisingly so.

SPEAKER_05 32:01

We forget that joy and sadness coexist at the same time. We talk a lot about dialectical behavioral therapy coexisting at the same time. Two very different experiences. Inside Out. Inside Out 2 does a beautiful job representing this.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Great movie.

SPEAKER_05 32:21

Sadness and joy live at the same time. They're actually working together sometimes. So you can be very depressed and you can still have glimmers of joy. And I might something that I do with my clients in the residential program is providing them opportunities to experience joy and then giving them the space and the time and the verbiage to explain and express that. What did that feel like? They want to be like it was nothing. Right. I mean, they're teens, but also depression wants to tell us that was nothing. It's not sustainable. Don't even go there. But to be able to say, I ran into the ocean and I felt like I giggled and I felt the cold rush. I felt it in my whole body. Oh, you felt something in your whole body. Whoa, you ran. Like you ran into the ocean. Someone who couldn't get off the couch yesterday to go to group. That's huge. Can I just point out to you how huge that is? You might not be able to do that tomorrow, but today, amazing. That's evidence of accomplishment. And a lot of times, depression, when we have depression, we need that evidence of accomplishment. We need that evidence that joy is still there. Joy comes before hope many times. We start to experience that, that tingly. And that tingly is what that that warmth that is what will start to build up into hope.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

And it's interesting to hear you talk about something as seemingly small as petting a cat or watering your plant. But when I worked at the crisis line, we had to ask, once someone said that they were not suicidal, what they were going to do that night. Yep. Basically to get through it. And the answers were not big. The answers were not, you know, planning a vacation because they were depressed. Um, it was those little things and a lot of cat videos, but sometimes it was music, it was a movie. You'd be surprised, uh, you wouldn't be, I was, um, how seemingly small those things were. But if a YouTube video can make you smile during a depression, go for it, you know? And that's your both can exist at the same time. So I hadn't thought about that preceding hope and being a step on the path toward reconnecting with it. But uh, we should talk about medications too, because that was my experience. So deep depression, in bed, better part of two years, wishing to not wake up every single morning. One day finally clicks, not unfortunately, because someone said, Hey, Tara, go to a doctor, but I did, and started on antidepressants, which have been on and off for decades. About four weeks later, I had a floor beneath my feet. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I could have, I could have not lost years of my life. So I know people hate meds, and my phrase is always that you either swear at the mention of meds or you swear by them. Yeah. And for me, it's, you know, it's like I just need a floor beneath my feet so I can make some choices. But otherwise, if I'm just still dropping, I can't, I can't make a decision. I can't do anything for myself. So let's talk about medication and therapy because those are always the top two that are talked about with depression. And then for people who really just do not want either of those two things.

SPEAKER_05 35:50

Yeah. Medication saved my life.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:53

And I also really respect and appreciate folks who are resistant or for any number of reasons. Cultural reasons, what, you know, what whatever someone's reason is, I respect that and I and I understand that. Um, as a clinician, as a program, we're always looking to navigate and be aligned with someone in their hopes for themselves. Right. We are, we want to, as clinicians, have provide someone the autonomy to make the decisions for themselves. And I think of taking medications when you are deeply depressed as someone who, if you were to correlate it to someone who has diabetes, right? Yeah and needs to take their medication to be able to function and be well in the world. Many times that is the case with depression. For me, I've had to take it for long periods of time or I've had to take it for shorter periods of time. When you talked about that, like four weeks in, you felt a floor underneath you. I will never forget the moment I went to treatment in a place in Arizona. I had been there four weeks. I was sitting outside one day on a rock, and all of a sudden, it was this, oh, there's a sun feeling. I felt warmth. I was like, oh, it was like a clearing happened. The fuzziness was gone. The it was just, it was just a wild experience. It wasn't like a burning bush moment per se, right? Like it wasn't like depression is gone, but I had this moment of like, oh, something just changed. Something just shifted. Medications and and being willing to be on the path of finding the right medication that works for you is so key. The first medication that you take might not always be the one that's gonna be the game changer right out of the gate. That was really frustrating for me. I am a results-driven person. Yep. You got to give me that good stuff and I want to feel good and I want it to feel good now, or I'm gonna completely give up on it.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:07

I think that's part of that like apersonality perfectionism piece. And so it my journey, my process with medications was really frustrating. And it was a lot of like what I name as like false starts and feeling like I was, you know, wasting time and wasting energy. And I started to lose trust in providers of like, you didn't get this right again. Right. Had nothing to do with the providers. It just had to do with finding the right medications that worked for my struggle and my body and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Be willing to be on the journey with it. So many times, um, especially with the teens that we work with, but I I myself have experienced this where taking the medication to be able to stabilize, get that, getting that floor underneath you, being able to feel the sun, where I could then go in and do the deeper therapeutic work. If a therapeutic path is something that you are going to embark on, I needed that foundation, that stabilization to be able to even hear and be present enough to do that, to do that therapeutic work. It also allowed me to show up for my job. It allowed me to show up for my loved ones, for my children, for the things that I needed to show up for. It gave me, I remember having a provider that talked about like, we're just gonna give you a little bit of a buffer. You're not going to stop feeling your personality, it is not going to change.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Oh, that's yeah, talk about that. Yeah. You know, because I was scared of that. Uh hear it all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:40

I, even though I kind of hated myself, I still didn't want to fall the contradiction of like, right? I still didn't want to change everything about who I was. I was afraid professionally I would lose my edge. Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

I was afraid zombie.

SPEAKER_05 39:55

I was afraid I was gonna be a zombie. I was afraid of the weight gain, vanity, whatever. I was terrified of that. There were so many, you know, reasons and questions and fears that I had around taking medication. And at some point, this I had this counselor and she was just very blunt. I'm very blunt as a therapist. I think it's just who I am, but I also attribute it to her. She gave me permission to. And she was like, Do you want to be pretty or do you want to be dead?

SPEAKER_01 40:25

And I was like, Well, when you put it like that, I had a guest on the podcast say, you have to learn to love the thing you hate the least. I didn't love the weight gain. I didn't love the, you know, whatever changes came, but I liked them a lot more than wanting to be dead. Yep. And like that is that's not even close for me. And then I tried a different one that didn't have those same side effects. But at least I got out of that mind because that, oh, I couldn't do, I couldn't do it myself. I, you know, if if if desire, I don't even know if I had the desire now that I think back to that time. But I mean, if being a go get them gal and get stuff done isn't how I usually say that phrase, person was all that was required. My depression would have lasted like eight minutes because I would have been right on it, but that just wasn't an option.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

Yeah, it wasn't like a for me, it wasn't, it's not like I lacked motivation. It's not like I was a lazy person in life. It's not like I really needed something to shift chemically what was happening in my brain and in my body, right, so that I could get on a path.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

I found a bit of comfort in the fact that meds worked because it confirmed for me that it wasn't just in my head, that there was something physical, there was something medical, there was something biological about it that could be addressed with medications. So as much as I didn't want to need them or take them, I did find some comfort in the fact that they worked for me.

SPEAKER_05 41:55

Isn't that nice when we learn that we're not just like innately failed, flawed humans? Oh.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

It's and it's so convincing because there's evidence everywhere. You know, it just depends on which lens you're looking through. Yeah. This is from the internet. Do I really need medication or can I treat depression naturally or with prayer?

SPEAKER_05 42:16

I live in LA. We love all of our natural remedies. I grew up in a household that was not quick to medicate. I think yes, and it's going to look different to go the non-medication natural remedy path. And I think it's really important that when we go that path, um, that we're that there is an additional support system built in around someone who is navigating um the natural remedy path. But it also depends on the level of depression, how it depends on the type of depression. Um, I I'm not someone who's like medication is the only way to go. No, the natural path and and way of being is like for the people that are granolin, I say that from someone who owns lots of Birkenstocks. Um I would never that's that's a question that for me, I it depends. Yeah. Same with prayer. I am a deeply spiritual person. My connection with my higher power now brings me so much relief. I feel so deeply connected. I feel a sense of belonging. Those are those are both antidotes to depression.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Protective factors, yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:50

Yeah. I feel a sense of hope because of prayer. And for me, and for many people that I've worked with, prayer. And faith didn't really even kind of touch the depression. I and for me, it was because I'm sure people were praying for me. My mother is deeply religious. My family is deeply religious. And I was still very much in a place of hopelessness. So while I think that prayer and faith can be wildly beneficial and extremely helpful, I wouldn't say that we'd want to just depend on that. But man, keep your higher power close.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Yes. I had a podcast guest word it, she was an attempt survivor and said, um, and had been raised with the give it to God uh strategy. And she had very strong faith, still does today. But the way she worded it after that experience was pray, you know, with every fiber of your body on your way to the pharmacy, picking up your meds, or pray on your way to the therapist. Because sometimes you'll need other tools too.

SPEAKER_05 44:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

And I appreciated the way she said it.

SPEAKER_05 45:02

For me, it was my higher power that finally allowed me to have the willingness and the openness. It was because of my prayer and begging. Show me what I need to do. Help me find my path that I firmly believe that that's what gave me the willingness and the openness to be on my wellness journey, which included medication and included therapy and included it was my higher power that was like, oh, babe, I've been waiting forever for you to ask me this. Here you go. And also I've been showing you over and over and over again all of these different avenues that you could potentially take to get on this path. Um, and I was the one that was like, no, that doesn't seem fun. No, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Right. That seems like a lot of work, or really, yeah. I I'm of the don't rule anything out that isn't dangerous. You know.

SPEAKER_05 45:59

We look at it like a wellness wheel. We're gonna find what works and fits for us. Do not base your wellness wheel off of this person's wellness wheel over here. That comparison, it's always going to lead to despair. You know, you hear the phrase compare and despair. Don't do that. Find what works for you if that's prayer and medication and meditation and this and that.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Journaling and sunshine and yes.

SPEAKER_05 46:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 46:29

Great. You found your, you found your your magic sauce, you found your your wellness.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

And the thing that works today may or may not work tomorrow, or it may or may not have worked yesterday. So it helps, I think, to have a lot of different tools so that you can kind of pick and choose and see what works today. Yeah. So we've talked about therapy, we've talked about medication, we've talked about some of the more um natural or holistic techniques and tools that can help us as well. What does somebody do if those thoughts that we've been talking about, the scary thoughts, the intrusive thoughts, and in particular the dangerous thoughts, suicidal thoughts, if they start to come in? What is our safest move to protect ourselves and get us to a place where we can shift out of it, hopefully?

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Speak up. Share that with somebody. If you have that trusted person or you have a therapist, please name that. It will get bigger and it will get louder the more that we silence it and the more that we keep it secret. Secrecy is the invitation for depression and hopelessness to get bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

And how do we know if somebody in our life who is experiencing depression is having those thoughts? Do you straight up ask?

SPEAKER_05 47:43

Yes. There is a misconception that if you ask somebody, are you feeling suicidal or are you feeling like you want to die, that it will put the thought in their mind that suicide is an option? It does not. Someone who is not suicidal will not automatically start thinking about wanting to die if you ask them, Are you feeling have you been having any thoughts about not wanting to be here anymore? Have you ever considered suicide? Directly ask.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

You just asked two different questions. And I think it's important because when I trained in suicide prevention, I was told to ask, are you suicidal? Are you considering killing yourself? I understand really direct question, also the importance of it. Do you ever wish you weren't here? Yeah. Do you think about death in a welcoming way?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Because when I was asked the questions in the doctor's office, are you suicidal? No. Yeah. Absolutely not. Never. I've never had a plan. I've never, you know, but did I wake up every morning wishing I hadn't? Yes. And that's a conversation that could stop it from getting someplace else. So I appreciate that you worded it both ways. And I think they're both really important.

SPEAKER_05 48:49

Extremely important. And yeah, it's going to give you a different set of answers. Yeah. And it's going to help you know which direction to go in.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

And have a real conversation. Have a real conversation. Exact opposite of how are you.

SPEAKER_05 49:03

Yeah. And I just want to remind those that are nervous to step in and ask. There is nothing that we want more as humans to be seen and to be heard and to be understood. We might not like you in the moment when you ask that, but we will love you later on. Promise.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

That's just the perfect place to end. I'm so grateful for your time and you sharing your expertise.

SPEAKER_05 49:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

And your personal experiences. That was hard.

SPEAKER_05 49:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

I appreciate that you went there to help other people.

SPEAKER_05 49:33

Thank you. Of course. Yeah. Even with the emotion that comes up with it, it's it's still something that I know is great, greatly helpful. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Well, it even helped me, so thank you.

SPEAKER_05 49:45

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Thank you. And if you think, and I can tell you that it it can be helpful to hear other people's stories of life with depression to learn what works for them and what doesn't, and what words even they use to describe it so that you have them to describe your own. I invite you to listen to recovery.com's Giving Voice to Depression podcast, which I also host. So if you aren't sick of me yet, there's close to 500 episodes there. And we'll be back next week with a deep dive into another topic.