#29: High-Achieving Moms—Are You Losing Yourself? (with Jess Ekstrom)

What if success isn’t supposed to cost you yourself?

So many of us did everything “right.”
We chased the goals. Built the life. Hit the big hairy audacious goals.

And then somewhere along the way…
we started to feel like we were losing ourselves in the process.

In this episode, I’m talking with Jess Ekstrom—speaker, founder, and bestselling author—about what happens when high-achieving women realize the finish line isn’t what they thought it would be.

We talk about:

•  the pressure to keep chasing the next “summit” 
•  how motherhood reshapes your identity in ways you don’t expect 
•  why so much self-help leaves us feeling more disconnected, not less 
•  and how to start trusting yourself instead of constantly looking outside for answers 

This is one of those conversations that doesn’t try to fix you—
it helps you see yourself more clearly.

About Jess:

Jess Ekstrom is a Forbes Top-Rated speaker, bestselling author, and the founder of Headbands of Hope, a company that has donated millions of headbands to children facing illness. She is also the founder of Mic Drop Workshop, where she helps women become paid public speakers and use their voices in a bigger way.

Her new book, Making It Without Losing It, explores what it really means to succeed—without sacrificing yourself in the process.

If this episode resonated with you…

Jess’s new book Making It Without Losing It just released this week, and it goes deeper into everything we talked about today.

You can find it here:
 🔗 Making It Without Losing It

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi achievers, uh perfectionists, go-getters. You're the ones who have done everything right. You've built the career, you've started the family, you've hit your big, hairy, audacious goals that you thought would finally make you feel like you made it, but they didn't. You still don't feel done. And you have this gnawing feeling that all of this hard work you've been doing is actually making you feel more disconnected from yourself. Welcome to the Next Phase Podcast, the show for millennial moms entering paramenopause who are ready to stop fixing themselves and start listening to themselves. I'm your host, Stacy Hudson, and today I get to talk to somebody who has spent her whole career helping women succeed and is now asking a much more important question. What if success isn't supposed to cost you yourself? Jess Ekstrom is a Forbes top-rated speaker, a best-selling author, and the founder of Headbands for Hope, a company that has donated millions of headbands to kids with illnesses. But the way I met her was through her Mic Drop workshop, where she helps women become paid public speakers and use their voices in a bigger way. And this week, she is launching her new book, Making It Without Losing It, which is all about what happens when you've spent your life chasing the next goal, only to realize that the finish line never actually comes. In this conversation, we talk about why high-achieving women feel like they're constantly chasing the next summit. What happens when motherhood completely reshapes your identity? How self-help can actually disconnect you from your own intuition, and how to stop delaying your life while you're trying to get it right. This was one of my favorite conversations I have ever had on this podcast because it is so honest, it's so real, and most importantly, it doesn't try to fix you. So let's get into it. Everybody, meet Jess. Welcome back to another episode of the Next Phase podcast. I have the one and only Jess Ekstrom in the house. Jess, welcome. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Oh, I'm so excited to have you. Jess, you have a new book coming out called Making It Without Losing It. Fantastic title. And I know so many women in my audience are high achievers who honestly feel like they've already kind of lost it. Um, how about you start with taking us to a moment in your own life when you realized that everything I've been killing myself for, this version of success, isn't actually what I wanted. It isn't actually working for me.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

There are so many moments in what I call a false summit. It started when I was a kid. I went on this program called Outward Bound, and they teach you leadership and you're in the woods. And we went on this hike one day, and our instructor told us when we got to the top of the mountain that we were all gonna get MMs. And I was like, great, now you have my attention, better than all this like freeze-dried camping food we've been eating. And I remember going up that mountain, seeing the kids in my group at the top, but they weren't eating MMs and they weren't celebrating. And I get to the top of that mountain and realized that what we had just climbed was actually hiding the larger peak that we now have to climb. And the instructor sat us down at this first peak and we're all like annoyed, MM-less, like thinking, like, oh, I got so much more left to do. I thought this was it. And he said, I he specifically took us on this route to teach us what's called a false summit, which is the belief that you see the top, you're about to make it. And then when you quote, make it, you realize that there's more left to go. Oh, I thought this was gonna be it, but now I have to get over here. And how many times in our life have we hit these false summits? Like, once I get this amount at work, or once I can live in this neighborhood, or once my kids go to school, or once I can do this. And so I found myself in my professional career, and then I'm still categorize myself as a new mom. I have a one and a three-year-old, constantly like chasing these false summits and feeling totally deflated in this never-ending cycle of being done. At work, that looked like really frantically trying to get to what I call the bottom of the pile, and it just didn't exist. It was like, okay, there is no zero inbox. There is no, everything is done. At home, I would try to like hurry up to relax. It's just such an oxymoron where you're like frantically cleaning up all the toys, scrubbing the things. I'm like, I just need to get to the part where I can relax, or if I just rush through everything, then I can finally take a beat. And then you just realize like there are no finish lines, there's no confetti cannons, ribbon cuttings. And so if that's true in our work and at home, that if there isn't these like I've made it moments, then how do we learn to not keep delaying joy? Because that's the problem, is we just delay joy till we think that we reach the summit. The summit never comes. Yeah. So that's what this book and this exploration has been something I've needed the most, which is like how to find joy and pride and happiness in the in-between instead of just waiting for the results.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

I I feel that so much as it pertains to my motherhood, because I was one of those girls who wanted to be a mother her whole life. Like I knew I was going to be whatever that looked like. And when it actually arrived, I was so stressed out, so like buried in parenting books and podcasts and like trying to do it right and trying to do it perfect. And they're part of that is just survival mode in early motherhood and not well slept and just trying to figure it out. But very little of it was joy. And that made me so sad because I'm also very sentimental. So I keep like all of my old diaries and notes and journals. And if I look back, it was just like, when I become a mother, like when I will do this. And it's just like, what are you doing? Like, this is it. You have arrived. Why are you so stressed out still? Why are you so focused on the wrong things? And as my kids have gotten older, I think I've started to enjoy it more too.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

How old are your kids now?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

They're six and eight.

unknown 7:17

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

So you have them close together like me too. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I posted about this the other day because I was like, I appreciate people who have kids that are older telling me, oh, go so quick, enjoy it, you know. And I get it. I'm like, yes, I know it goes quick. But it also makes me feel like I can't admit that this is hard. It almost gives me anxiety that I'm not enjoying it enough.

unknown 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

When I'm like, I miss sleeping through the night. Yeah. I miss some of these things. And I also know that they're never going to be this little again. Right. So as mom, sometimes no matter what, it's a win-win, it's a lose-lose.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Just so and so much of it, in my opinion, is about the process and the journey. And like no amount of women can come up to you when you have a one and a three-year-old and tell you to enjoy it in the moment and get you to hear where they're coming from. You have to go and get to six and eight to look back and be like, oh yeah, you have to. I just I think it's really, really hard in the moment. And it's not that you can't enjoy it, but like sleep deprivation is life-sucking. Like you can't, you're not the same person.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

It's a form of torture. Yeah. It really is. And I totally agree with you. And I think what you were saying around when you became a mom and you were just like flooding yourself with information. I did the same thing. And I talk about this in the book, where I think it's great that we have so much information and we have Chat GPT and we have people's experiences and this TikToker and this person. But it also, if our default is to look outward, any fork in the road. Should I put my kid to bed at seven? Should I eat more fiber? Like if our default is always to look outward, then we're never training ourselves on our own intuition and to look inward. And that was for me as a parent, it was always looking for the expert. Because I figured everyone who's raised kids has a secret that I don't know. In a way that can be true because they have experience. But it blocked me from almost getting to know my own daughter when she was born because I was like, well, what does the internet say before I think about what I should do? And I think there's just a balance that we have to strike between being inspired by people or learning from them, and then also like overflooding our system. So I have like a couple of parenting experts that I follow, and then I don't do any more. And then I also don't take advice if I don't need it. It's really easy to be like, we should all be sitting crisscross applesauce at the end of the day, sharing the our three things that we are grateful for and the four things that we want to do tomorrow. And you want to like, I should copy what this family is doing. We don't need it. You know, we have our own way. And so I don't take advice or follow things that I don't need, even though it's tempting to be like, well, my life should look like that. If you don't, yeah, if you don't need it, don't take it.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah. And you said it prevented you from getting to know your daughter. It also prevents you from getting to know who you are as a mother, right? Like to listen to your own intuition and like you're gonna create some sort of magic that no book could teach you because you have your lived experience that you're bringing into it. So I I love all of this, and it's so spot on with like what we talk about on this podcast. Like, my tagline is stop fixing yourself and start listening to yourself, especially us high achievers. We love to go to resources, you know, books and podcasts and courses. It's almost like an addiction. Like, you can't get enough. The more I learn, the better I'll be. And what happens when you act like that and when you live like that is you totally lose touch with who you are and what your gut would tell you. It's like walking around with AirPods all day listening to podcasts instead of listening to your own thoughts. Like it really robs you of some of your personality.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

It's such a good point, Stacey. And something I've thought about a lot being someone who's a self-improvement author. I speak, I teach other women how to do it. There was this podcast I listened to a while ago. I think it was called The Guru. And it was basically how self-help can be weaponized in making people feel broken. And oh, if you buy this course, if you read my book, if you join my mastermind, then I can fix this thing. And I was like, man, I really want to make sure that whatever I put out into the world, whether it's a book, a talk, a podcast, it is not about fixing you. It's about exploring what's possible. And so with making it without losing it, or even like in mic drop workshop, which I'm so glad that's been helpful for you, it's all around a personalized approach. And it's because nothing is going to be one size fits all. It's not even one size fits most. We all have different lives that we're walking through. So if I can give people tools to explore what's possible for them, explore what they're made of, explore what it would look like if I could tell my story on stage, what would it look like if I could pursue success without losing myself, then I'm doing my job. But what is really kind of like clickbaity that gets people is like, you're doing it wrong. Here's how to do it right. Pay me$20. Right, which is so, I just hate it. And I have worked with social media companies before, and sometimes they'll create a hook for a video and it'll be like, stop starting your talks like this. Or if you're doing this, it's wrong, and here's how to do it. And even though the video is helpful, I don't care if that gets more clicks or more views. We're not using fear, we're not using less than, we're not even using the word stop. Like you have to kind of sometimes step out of that what the hook and the viral and choose like, no, I'm gonna meet people where they are, even if that sacrifices views. I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Okay, so a lot of women listening are high achievers their whole life, good grades, climb the career ladder, all the things. And I think there is a certain point where that identity stops working for you. And I think some of it is in school, there's this beautiful structure around you. You, you study, you get good grades, and ta-da, you did well. And it's in life, it's in motherhood where I think a lot of us have this identity crisis because it's like, well, I'm doing all the things, I'm reading all the books, I'm doing everything, quote unquote, right, but I'm not getting any gold stars for it. Nobody's thanking me. I I have nothing to show for it. I mean, except for your beautiful, wonderful children. But yeah, it's a little different, right? And so, how do you deal with that kind of identity shift of like, I am no longer this person with all these accolades? Who am I?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah. It is crazy to think about one, just how you're raised, you know how you're doing. If I was good in first grade, that means I go to second grade. And if I was good in fifth grade, that means I go to sixth grade. And here is the number that I got on my report card that told me how well I was doing. So it's like you're constantly looking for that of like, did I do a good job? Am I well liked? Do I have enough money? Do I have enough relationships, whatever it might be? And so it's really uncomfortable to have success on your own terms. And so a lot of what the beginning part of making it without losing it is about is something we call success fingerprint, where it is really taking time to figure out how did I define success when I was a kid? What were my parents doing? What did my teachers say? What did I think success was? And then how does that compare to how I see it as an adult? And then what do I actually think that success for me in this lifetime is like? And then what am I doing together? Because it is a lot of times like a spring cleaning that we have to do these dated beliefs that we had when we were kids. And of course, we thought that success was maybe having your name on a skyscraper building. And now I'm like, that doesn't do anything for me. I remember even in my first book, Chasing the Bright Side, which I wrote in like 2018, I wrote in it that I wanted to have a Netflix show. And now I'm like, I could not think of anything less that I want than a camera crew following me around that sounds miserable. So your definition of success is going to evolve and change. But I know that motherhood for me was the biggest shift in my success fingerprint, more so than starting my businesses or anything like that, because I definitely considered myself a high achiever. And all of the things that I based my identity on were threatened by motherhood. So being able to travel to speaking gigs, my ability to be spontaneous and say yes to things, my ability to pour into my relationships and my friendships, which I still really struggle with, my relationship to my husband and just how we were able to date each other, my physical body and how I felt like I looked, all of those things were threatened by motherhood. And those were all of the pillars that I based my self-worth on. I definitely also had clinical postpartum depression, which I had got help with, but it was also this like situational identity crisis and this false summit of I wanted to be a mom so bad. You know, and just like you were saying, Stacy, it was never a question. I wanted it. And then I was like, wait, this thing that I wanted so bad is not what I thought it would be. Also in the beginning, you're so clouded where you think that this newborn phase is what motherhood is. Like I could not see my kid going to the potty one day or saying, Mom, can I have a snack? It was like, okay, for the rest of my life, I'm gonna be up every two hours and chained to this house. You couldn't see the yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

I did the same. I always equate it to like getting like a bad cut on your finger and being like, Well, this is it for the rest of my life. It's never gonna stop working.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

And then it heals, and you're like, oh yeah, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

And it's so funny. And it just shows also how the cloud, like, I could not process things. And I knew that there was something, quote, wrong when logic didn't work. I just knew, oh, okay, I need to get some help. And just to give postpartum depression some light here, because I wish someone had talked to me about it before when I was pregnant with my first so much of the resources that I found were about labor. Did you find that?

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

I have all the books. Labor. And for me, it was the fourth trimester. I'm like, afterwards. Yes. And they're like, here's your baby, head on home. And I'm like, I should not be trusted with like, what do I do? Right. Needed help in that hormonal crash in the fourth trimester. And I remember feeling the flick of a switch. I talk about it and making it without losing it, being in the hospital after having Ellie and almost feeling like someone just turned off the lights in my brain and just started hysterically crying, which I'm not a super emotional person. So my husband was like, What's, you know, what's going on? He went and got a nurse. And I remember they said it's called the baby blues. You might feel low for like two weeks. And if it continues after that, you might have something called postpartum depression. And there's a lot of resources and things that can help you. And I already felt like I just knew that I had it. Like I just, there's something going on. And I said, Can you show me what some of those resources are so I'm ready? I kid you not, Stacey. I kid you not. They said you could probably just Google it.

unknown 20:08

No, they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

You can probably just And this is only a few years ago because you're a relatively new. This is not like 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Three and a half years ago. But then I will say when I had my son a year and a half later in the same hospital, it was a completely different experience. Okay. Which is great. But to anyone who's listening to this who might be newly postpartum or just like about to go through that, it is normal. And I even put like links for help in my book. You can also just reach out to me directly, but it is it's a real, it's a real thing. Absolutely. And not enough people talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

My struggle was that I did know about postpartum depression. I'd heard about that enough. And I wasn't experiencing that. I was experiencing extreme anxiety, which is also a thing, right? But people don't talk about that one as much. So it it really threw me because I was never sad or down. In fact, I was like the opposite. I was like, I'm magic. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

I could I had a little bit of that too. How did you get help or what did you do with that?

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Well, sorry. No, I don't have a great answer. I mean, it was a really, really hard road. Um, and I was really lost for a long time. I was slightly isolated because I had moved to Colorado and away from my family in Chicago, and I didn't really have anybody. And it didn't feel to me that I could say something was wrong because again, I wasn't sad. So for me, my ADHD diagnosis was very helpful because it helped me better understand and like label myself, which then helped me get help. And I didn't have great experience with therapy either. So I think a lot of people talk about therapy as if it's like this. Didn't magic bullet. And it can be if you find a wonderful therapist, but like even somebody else's wonderful therapist is not your wonderful therapist. So it's a long, long road, a lot of trial and error, and a lot of us end up giving up. So I don't, I don't have a great answer for how I handled it. I'm a good place now because my kids are six and eight.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yes, I know. And I was the same way with therapy. I have a therapist now, but it was not during my postpartum era. And when you think about it, it's like you don't have time. And if you don't have the foundation of someone that you've trust before, I would say it's a really hard thing, not to say that you shouldn't try, but to find one and get there, make the appointment when you're postpartum. I was at my daughter's pediatrician appointment or her six-week appointment, and had to fill out like a questionnaire. And then her pediatrician was the one who diagnosed me and said, take this to your doctor and they'll give you Lexapro. And so I've been on Lexapro ever since. And it was like someone pulled me out of a well. I mean, just to, oh, this is, and and when my son was born and I was still on Lexapro and also just had the gift of being the second time around, it was like all the things that I wanted it to be the first time of like, oh, when they lay you on your chest, and oh, and you just wake up and get those cuddles in the night, and all the things that I felt like, where is this? I feel like I had the presence with my son to have that second time around. And obviously now, I mean, my daughter, we are just like two peas in a pod, and it's so cool to see them interacting and stuff with each other now, and of course, fighting, but still, you know, interacting. But yeah, it really shook me up. But what I will say that also happened, Stacey, is that I think with my business and with mic drop and speaking, I got better at it because I had something else that I cared deeply about, more so than my work. And even like watching footage of, you know, a lot of my career is speaking on stages. And I look at speaking after I had kids versus before and just the relaxed nature of after having, because I'm like, before it was like this is the most important thing in my life. And if this goes bad, then I'm a terrible person and my life's work is done, and I had such high stakes, which when someone tells you, this has to be great, it's not gonna be great. And so when I had kids and I just was like, Yeah, if I bomb, I'm still good, you know. If my family's here, I'm good. I got so much better. There is a lot of ways that politically that women are set back with having kids that like systems need to change. But I do want to address that for some of us, having kids can make you better at your job. I'm a better delegator, I'm better with my time. I feel like I'm more compassionate to people, especially moms on my team, which I hire a lot of moms. But it can also be a great asset to who you are at work.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Right. Absolutely. And you talked about that on your podcast with the woman who did a TED talk about her whole TED talk was about how it's okay to hire people for child care so you can continue to pursue your career. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Hazel Psy. And thank you. I am actually having Naha Rooch on my podcast soon, and she's the founder of the PowerPause. And so hers is the opposite, where she's like, I'm taking this time off, and I'm gonna have a gap in my resume, but I'm thinking of it as like a power gap and not this like I'm behind gap. And what I love about Naha, and what I love about Hazel is even though they have two completely different things that they did. Hazel went to work, Naha took time, they're not saying you do this, they're saying here was my experience. Right, right. And take it or leave it. And we're all talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

We're talking about it. Yeah. Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. Something you said earlier about how when you're pregnant and you're about to become a mom for the first time, everybody's pushing like labor and delivery information on you. It's so similar to when you're getting married and everybody's pushing wedding, wedding information on you, and nobody's talking about the marriage afterward, which is way harder. Yes. Takes way more understanding and work. So I had to say that.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

It's so true. And I actually, in making it without losing it, I talked about something called the post-achievement letdown. And it's this scientifically backed crash that happens after something big, you know, a wedding, retirement. Uh, Simone Biles and Michael Phelps have talked about this with the Olympics getting depressed. And it doesn't have to be like a huge slip to feel this, but we've all had something where you're like, oh, I was really looking forward to that vacation and now it's over, or the this and now it's done. Whenever we put so much of our joy or ourselves into like a single date or a single action or a single moment, it's just never going to be what we thought it was gonna be. And so thinking of it as not just the wedding, but the start of a marriage or not just the delivery, but the start of parenthood, which is really, I get conceptually hard to do. But even just telling your mind that this isn't about like April 17th. This is about April 17th being the beginning of this thing that's going to be much longer and much different. I think that could just be helpful with how we process that day.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Right. Right. And this is really what your book is about. But like I think it's really hard to switch from if you're a high achieving, goal-oriented person and you're always focused on the goal, the summit, it's really hard to switch to I'm going to enjoy the journey there. Like it for people who don't think that way, like the stop and smell the roses type of moment. And right. And having kids does help with that because you speak about this well as well, but they teach you to do that. And at first, it can be a little disarming because you're just annoyed. We live in Colorado, so we go on hikes and it's just agony. Like my hikes by myself are very fast and efficient. I literally time myself. How fast can I do this hike? Yeah. I bring my kids along, and especially my youngest, my six-year-old, she loves flowers. So every flower, every weed, mom, come smell this. And like we have to stop and literally smell the flowers. And I am just like, for me to switch from split time, is this, you're messing it up.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Oh my God, I totally get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Switch from being annoyed to being like, you're right, Maggie, we do. Yes. But I'm I'm getting there. It takes time. Here's the other thing: it takes time. It doesn't just happen overnight, right? When you become a mom. I love six and eight because I've learned so much about myself and so much about my kids and how I'm able to like slow down and handle this that I couldn't have known at two and four. I just couldn't.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah. Yeah. What is it that they're teaching you at six and eight that you wish you knew at two and four?

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Oh um gosh, I think this is gonna sound strange. What we were talking about before, that there's no gold star with motherhood. There's no like product to show you what you've done is wonderful. I actually kind of think there is at six and eight because they really start to form into beings, and you see that all of the work that you'd been doing beforehand shows up. The the things that you felt like were just going right past them over their heads, or just they weren't listening, they were. It just takes years and years to show and it takes more brain development. So, like my eight-year-old is so secure in herself. Like my number one goal with both of my daughters was confidence because I struggled so much with my own growing up, and so did my husband. So that is like a parenting, like core parenting value, confidence, security. And this girl is so weird, she's so quirky. Harry Potter, dragons, magic, like big nerd, right? Yeah. And the other day, my older daughter was telling my younger daughter, Maggie, you're like the most popular girl in your class. Everybody always loves you, and everybody always calls your name. And Maggie, who is very confident in herself, goes, Yeah, I am pretty popular. Then she says to her bigger sister, but you too, Charlie. Everybody loves you. At recess, I always see everybody playing with you. And then Charlie goes, No, Maggie, I'm not popular. I'm weird, and that's okay. Like she was so confident in that. Like she knows she's a little quirky. And but like, oh my God, the pride for both of them. Like they both are experiencing school differently and friendships differently. But like the fact that both of them are secure in who they are in school and amongst their friends, I'm like, I I did that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Tell me how you did that. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Oh, that's another podcast.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

I know, but like, give me one thing that I have a three-year-old daughter. What are some things I can start instilling in her at this age?

SPEAKER_02 31:49

So one of the big things that always stuck with me is apologizing. Um, now it depends on what kind of kid you have, but my older one was starting to be very over-apologetic about every little thing which she got from me. You accidentally like brush by somebody. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Um, I ask her to put her shoes on and she's stuck in a book. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, so sorry, so sorry, mom, right? Like over the top, over-apologizing all the time. And it really bothered me because that's how I am or how I was, and I'm working on that. And so I told her, look, this is something I struggle with too. And it's not that there is never a reason to say I'm sorry, but we don't need to apologize for existing. And so what we're gonna do for each other is we're gonna be each other's sorry police. And if I find that you are saying sorry when you don't need to say sorry, I'm gonna call you on it. And you're gonna do the same for me. So for years we went back and forth like this. If she would catch me, if I said I'm sorry for something that was stupid and equally so, and it kind of became a little bit of a joke, but I feel like it really taught her that she didn't need to just apologize for being, which I think so many girls just naturally learn to do.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

I always like that. Yeah, I it's so many of the things that they say are obviously such a mirror to ourselves. The thing that I'm working on with Ellie is food. I mean, growing up like millennial, we grow up in the Weight Watchers era, the America's next top model, the tabloids with someone with cellulite, just like and so now Ellie, of course, she wants cookies. She wants this, she wants that. And I'm trying not to label things as like good food and bad food. This is one of the things that I do want to like research when we talk about information because I am curious about this. So I did read a book, I think it was called Fat Talk. It was like a very jarring cover, but it was so interesting about like how to talk to your kids about food and the age of diet culture. And something that I learned was there are no bad foods, there's just good foods for different reasons. Like these cookies are good because they make you happy, but then the broccoli is good because it makes you strong. Okay, so we've had a lot of like the happy foods today. Let's like have some of the good strong foods, but not saying like cookies are bad. And I'm already seeing some of those moments where she asks a question where is this a strong food or happy food? And I'm like, oh, like just the glimmer of like you're right. Like she was listening. Yeah, I love it. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

And it's just like the biggest heartburst because you're like, yeah, oh, it's I'm doing it's working, I'm doing something. Yeah. I'm glad you said millennial. I we are millennials here on this podcast, late 30s, early 40s, born in 1985, about, right? So I love millennial references, they're my favorite things. So there's this 2012 movie, it's a little obscure. Not a lot of people remember it necessarily, but it's Sarah Jessica Parker, who I'm a big fan. So she it's called I Don't Know How She Does It. And it's all about her being a mom and also being a career woman and like just like how does she do it all, right? And there's this one quote where she says, I'm living two lives, but not enjoying either of them. And that just like stuck with me. And it was long before I even became a mom. But now that I am a mom, I think about it a lot because I wanted to be mostly stay at home. I became a freelance writer and I started a podcast and I try to do these like side projects to still fulfill myself. But the way I used to think was like pour everything into that thing, stay up late, get up early, work weekends, like all or nothing mentality. You can't do that when you have a kid. You have to figure out how to put your energy in both at the same time. And when that happens sometimes, and you're a high achiever, you don't do either well, right? Because you've got your laptop open and your kids talking to you. And there's been moments where literally I get down to her level so I can look her in her eye, I can fully hear what she's saying, and I'm trying to repeat it back. And then I'm standing up and like trying to type on my laptop at the same time, and it's just like, what are you doing? Like you're you're not doing either of these well. And are you enjoying either of these? Because you're not fully in either. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Oh, makes total sense. I it's like one foot in, what a foot out. I actually got a thing called brick that helps me with like the time on my phone because I could not be where my feet were planted. And I just constantly felt like if I'm at home, then I'm slacking off at work. If I'm at work, then I should be home. And I don't have an answer other than I think that the word balance puts this idea in our head that there is a winning formula when there's not. But I think that the thing that I go back to is more of a parenting decision that me and my husband have made is like, I want my daughter and my son to see me trying. You know, I want them to see me building something, I want them to see me failing. I want them to see me putting myself out there and getting on stage in front of people. And that to me is not just like succeeding at work, but it is also succeeding at home because they're watching. And my daughter, like I have to explain it to her because she'll be like, Where are you going? You know, and I have my suitcase. And I'm like, you know, like Miss Rachel, how she teaches through the screen? Like, I'm doing that, but I'm doing it to other people on stage. And she's like, Oh, and so she'll be like, Are you going to go be Miss Rachel? And I'm like, Yeah, you know, so that's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

Can we can we go back to the self-help conversation? I thought that was really interesting because you are in the self-help space, but you are aware that it can be it can be toxic, if you want to call it that, right? And if you're the kind of woman who you don't struggle with motivation or like discipline necessarily, we can get so overwhelmed because there's so much information, so much input, like podcasts, audiobooks, digital courses, right? And we're trying to constantly up level. And so at what point do you think that it starts working against us rather than for us?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

I have what I call input and output times. If we are constantly consuming and not creating, I think that can be really tough. And I don't mean that you have to like write a book or do something, but something where you are with your own thoughts or writing down your priorities when otherwise we can just be in input all the time instead of output. And so especially when I want to have time in my day where I create things, whether it's a podcast, whether I want to write something or think about what's next for my business, then I do no input, no podcasts, no reading, no other people's ideas. Days that I'm speaking to people, I do no input because I don't want someone else's ideas or comparison getting in my head when I'm there to give my own ideas. So the first thing I would do or just think about is like, what is the ratio of output to input that I have in my day? And is there ways that I can make time for a little more output and a little less input? Because the first step is just auditing, like taking the time to just be aware of like how much am I consuming versus creating, how much am I inputting versus outputting. And then trying to make those changes, like brick has been really helpful for me with that, or just designated days. Like I'm not listening or consuming things this day is for creating or for my own thoughts. And it doesn't even have to be you with a goal in mind, it just could just be a break. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

And I find that a lot of times when I'm really over listening and overtaking too much input, it's when I feel like I'm lost and floundering a little bit. And when I've got a great idea that I'm pursuing, I don't feel the need to get all of this outside information because I'm just excited to create it. You know what I mean? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah. It's the difference between anxious ambition and inspired ambition. Anxious ambition comes from when we work from a place of feeling behind. It's usually after we're scrolling on social media or we feel comparison, or I gotta do this and my life doesn't look as good as hers. I gotta write this, do that. And it is kind of like that manic feeling that you were talking about.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Anxious ambition. Inspired ambition is when we work from a place of interest or impact. It's like I either am deeply interested in this or I know that it's gonna be really impactful. And you feel more in a flow state than in the manic state. And you're not doing it because of how it looks, you're doing it because of how it feels. And so sometimes when I catch myself like manic keyboard to-do list, checking boxes, I just like take a beat and say, Oh, it seems like I'm working from anxious ambition versus inspired ambition. And either like set a timer for three minutes and just lay on the floor like starfish, or just even take a couple breaths because it's so easy to get caught up in that.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yes, I like that. Starfish for three minutes. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

If you walk into my office in the middle of the day, I'm just like, hold on, need a second.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

I've done that. I've absolutely done that. Um, okay. You specialize in public speaking and teaching women to use their voices. And one thing I learned from your boot camp is that we are surprisingly underrepresented on the stage, right? And when you're in a big corporation and you go to a big event, a lot of the times it's a man up there speaking to inspire you. And if it is a woman, she's getting paid a hell of a lot less to do it, right? So 100%. We again, that could be a whole other podcast, but I found that really interesting. And also to me, as the kind of person who desires to public speak to get my voice more out there, is like, oh my God, like I have to do this, right? Like, this is important. Like, we need more of our voices out there. So for the woman listening who is either interested in speaking or just like creating and expressing herself more in her career or in her world in any way, what is one small thing she can start doing to use her voice without it feeling overwhelming to her?

SPEAKER_01 43:19

So I think that one of the things that we do that I think can lessen how scary it is to like go out there and apply the speaker, do something is instead of saying, What do I want to speak on? Reverse engineer, what is the aftermath I want my speaking to create? So almost this visualization of imagine that you just spoke and people are applauding, they're laughing, they're crying, that was amazing. And then they're going to their cars, they're calling their spouses, they're going back to work, whatever it might be. What's the change that you want in them? Do you want them to be a little bit more confident? Do you want them to be More productive? Do you want them to be more communicative? And so think about like what's the transformation that you want to have in people. And then we put that together in something called a transformation promise, where it's after people hear me speak, they will blank because my talk will blank. And that can be your north star of your communication and your speaking business because people don't pay for just a cool story. They pay for the aftermath, what that story taught you that you can now go teach other people.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

So I would start with your transformation promise. Like, what do you want people to think, feel, and do after hearing you speak?

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yeah, I love that. So what does it actually look like, Jess, to make it without losing it, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 44:48

I think to make it without losing it, it is going to feel like the joy that you're wishing for at the result. You feel it in the process. So no more delaying the good stuff. I mean, even I think about this with my kid, Ellie, she got this new sticker book. And one day she wanted to just use all the stickers. We got this like big Amazon box. She's like, I'm just gonna cover this thing in stickers. And my first reaction was to be like, no, you just got this sticker book. Like, don't use all your stickers in one day. And then I thought about how many freaking gift cards do I have in a drawer that I've never used, or coupons that have expired, or dresses that I haven't worn, or something because I was waiting for the right time, waiting for a moment that felt like I could do this. And so I stopped myself. I was like, go for it. I don't want to teach her to hold her stickers and I don't want to keep holding my stickers. And so I think making it without losing it is about just like not waiting for a moment and realizing that we're in it. And so, how can we enjoy it while we're here and just use the stickers when you want them?

SPEAKER_02 46:06

Oh my God. I have chill, I have full body chills. I was the kid who saved all the Halloween candy. I saved my Easter candy, I saved everything for the perfect moment, and it never came. There were moments where I cleaned out my closet and found old Easter candy that had been there for years. Like I know that's disgusting, but seriously, that was the kind of kid I was. Like I was always waiting for the perfect moment. And my first child is the opposite. She wants it all. Now she'll consume it right away. And my second child, my younger one, is exactly like me. Easter just happened. The first child has eaten all of her Easter candy. The second child is saving it. And I asked her for what? And she said, just the right moment.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

That is so good. I'm so glad. It is, yeah, it's so fascinating. There's some movie, I think it was like looking for a friend for the end of the world, and it's like when the world ends. And this woman who's goes to a restaurant and she's wearing everything she owns, every piece of jewelry. And she's like, I was waiting for the moment to wear it. So I'm just gonna wear it now. And so that's what I hope people get from this book is like we're all just in it, you know, every single one of us, working parents, stay-at-home parents, people, like everyone's just going through something. And so, how do we learn to not wait for the outcome to feel joy or wait for the perfect moment? Because it's just not gonna arrive. It's it, and in fact, if we keep thinking that way, then we're gonna miss it. And I've been there. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

You're so good at like summarizing things in moments, moment to magic, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Um, tell us where to find your book and where to find you.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Yes. Um, you can go to anywhere that sells books and get making it without losing it with Jess Extrom. Of course, I would love you to do that with a local retailer wherever you are. And then you can find me on anywhere. I'm not hard to find, but I am cooler on LinkedIn than I am on Instagram. So you can find me at Jess Extrom. And then on Mondays, I send out a hype text. So, like something I'm thinking about, a quote, a question, and I send it at 11 a.m. Eastern every Monday. Yes, you can. So you can text me the word hype to 704 228 9495 to get on that text. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. You're so wonderful. You're such a ray of light. I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

My cheeks hurt from smiling, it's always a good sign.