Episode 19 - Respect vs Likability

Do you need to be liked to be an effective leader?

In this episode of Leading Ain’t Easy, Ryan and Erny sit down with Rene Guerrero, Assistant Public Works Director for the City of Ontario, to talk through one of the most common tensions leaders face: the balance between being respected and being liked.

Rene brings nearly 30 years of experience in engineering and public works leadership and shares what he has learned about credibility, trust, transparency, and tough decisions. Together, they explore how leaders can build real respect without becoming cold, rigid, or disconnected from their teams.

The conversation covers:

• the difference between wanting to be liked and needing to be liked
• why respect is built through consistency and integrity
• how transparency helps people understand hard decisions
• why authenticity matters when stepping into leadership
• and how to avoid drifting into fear-based or approval-based leadership

They also share personal stories about being the face of difficult decisions, navigating leadership transitions, and learning that it is okay if not everyone likes you.

If you have ever struggled with trying to be a “good” leader without becoming a people pleaser, this episode will hit home.

Leading Ain’t Easy is hosted by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, a career and leadership coaching practice helping veterans and other professionals realign their work and lead with purpose.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, Ernie Effley, founder of Bus Pro Network, as we unpack the highest, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. And joining us today to talk about this topic is Renee Guerrero. Renee, if you could give us a brief background and then uh kind of fill us in on your on your leadership experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah, great. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Um uh it's pretty cool that you guys are doing this. So uh I appreciate the opportunity. But uh just a little bit about myself. Uh currently I'm the assistant public works director for the city of Ontario in Southern California. Uh I have a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from UC Irvine, Zot Zot. Uh and uh nearly uh 30 years uh of experience in the engineering and public works sectors. Um in my current capacity, uh I assist in managing over 300 employees in the public works agency uh across five different departments. Uh our total operating budget is close to$150 million this particular uh fiscal year. Um I also assist in overseeing the uh city's five-year capital improvement program. Uh and that has an adopted budget uh of uh just about$680 million uh for this year. Um the other thing I think I think I'll add is uh I recently took on a little side gig. I just became uh an adjunct professor uh teaching uh the introduction to public works course at Citrus Community College. So it's uh it's a great little experience so far. I'm enjoying it. Uh it's just a nice way to give back.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Wow. No, you're you're both in in uh the public sector, but you sound way more important.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

He is automatically off top. I I I bow to you, sir. I do with 300 employees. I I thought I had a quite a bit. Like I'm I'm I've been c close to 100. I think we're at 70 now. Um, but yeah, three God bless you, sir.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

To talk about uh today's topic, likeability versus uh respect. I I'm sure with 350 employees under you and and everything that you've done to get there, you've experienced this quiet quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I have. Uh, and it's certainly been um uh I think a learning and growing experience uh throughout my career, right? You as a kind of a a lowly engineer, um you you you you are supervised and managed by folks. Uh and uh back when I was a lowly engineer, right, those folks uh kind of came from the previous generation, were kind of being hard-nosed uh and and a little, I'll say mean was kind of their way of leading and their way of gaining their respect. I think at that time they they probably didn't care whether they were liked or not, right? And I think that was uh something, as again, a young engineer, I had to kind of learn and discern, like, okay, you certainly have my respect. Uh but I think the other thing I I learned from that too is as you learn and you grow and you move on from job to job, you kind of learn things from different folks and you understand, oh I may not like that kind of way he or she did that. Um, but by the way, I do like maybe some of the things that that person did. So you kind of take what works for you, and and that's what I've kind of done over the years. And uh we'll touch on a few of those things, I think, throughout this session. But uh uh yeah, certainly uh I I do I'll never forget the times that uh uh I learned that uh my boss was really about respect and not about being liked.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

You know, it's it's crazy. Well, because like I spent a lot of time with my great-grandparents growing up, and my grandpa, you know, was born in 1918. It was very matter-of-fact, and uh kids are you know meant to be seen and not heard and all of that, and then going into the military where you're told what to do, and then some bosses that I had that were from you know the prior generation where it's all work and they don't care about the play, and I'm like, I'm not gonna be like that. And my goal was to get into management and be somebody that could bring everybody together, but in a cool way, and try to, you know, be liked and share that. And you get to a point to where there was a saying in the Marine Corps, don't mistake kindness for weakness. And it's very easy for people to start to think, oh, you know, I don't have to respect this person because he's trying to be nice and cool and everything else. And it took me a while to find the right groove in being able to be who I want to be towards people without having to, you know, maintain that that that strictness all the time, but also being able to manage the the line between what the the the respect and and uh likability piece looks like. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Ryan, I I think you touched on something that that is important is you know, uh at least in our generation, you know, we're we're close to the same age. I'm not gonna ask Renee his age. He probably certainly looks younger than I do, but um uh you know, when when we talk about the the authority in our lives growing up, especially from from from a male perspective, I lost I I grew up without a father. And uh however, like I had a lot of uncles that stepped in and really fulfilled that role with me. And and um I know I don't look it, but I'm half Mexican. And so the uncles that did step in were on my mom's side, who's and they had that that Latino, like, um, I don't want to call it machismo because they weren't, they weren't, it wasn't a fake machismo, but they were like, hey, you're a man now, and you are going to, you know, I remember one of my uncles, one of the first things he told me as a kid when my dad passed away is like, you're the man of the house now. And you know, I I've mentioned it before on this program, but it it it was an incredible, like eye-opening experience for, you know, at seven, eight years old to be told, I'm the man of the house. What do you mean? I have an older sister and my mom's here, you know. But from an early age, they there was a a uh a real expectation put on me as as being the sole male figure in the the family dynamic that we had and just seeing how they uh how they led their household. And I mean that I could agree with a lot, I could disagree with a lot, but it's it's helped me become that that uh sort of a a leading without fear. You know, there there has to be at some point, especially when you speak step into a leadership role, you have to, you you're faced with impossible decisions. We've talked about it a lot on this show, and and I'm sure you could, you know, pull 20 examples off the top of your head of times where like, man, there's there's you know, we come down to a binary decision, and man, both of them aren't good. You know, they're they're they're gonna have negative repercussions. So you have to be able to make that decision and stand with it and be confident behind it. And where I think that comes into likability versus respect is I've found out throughout the course of my career, and maybe uh Brian or Ray could give some real-time examples, but um, you earn a lot of respect from your your team around you when they know it's a tough decision. And they know, like, ooh, yeah, that's why you get paid the big bus. Have fun with that one, right? You know, um, and and you you might suffer a little bit on the likability end, but you gain a lot of respect from your team when you when you make decisions that that uh and stick with them and and and and it's not like you're just making these decisions willy-nilly, you know, they're they're as well informed as possible decisions. But um I think I think a lot of times as as early in my career, I certainly got tripped up in that where I would avoid the decision or uh because I'm like, oh, that's not gonna get me a fan here. That's gonna be, you know, a tough call to make. But um I think the the payoff at the end in terms of respect is is is is certainly much more conducive to what you and your agency are trying to do as a team. And it certainly garnish you, you even those that disrespect that disagree with you that that you're gonna sacrifice a little likability, if their intentions are are really for what the team is trying to do, they're gonna respect you. And I think you alluded to it earlier. Um, so one uh off the rip, I would just encourage those out there, whether you're young in your management career or leadership career, um, don't be afraid of the tough choice because uh it it it it it is gonna do do nothing but but uh I think gain that trust with your team and it's gonna really solidify your position as leader as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah, I I I would completely agree with that. You need to build that respect, right, as a leader. You need to build that respect. And I think one of the ways to do that is by leading with competence and integrity, right? Showing that you understand the industry, showing that you understand maybe the challenge in front of you. Um I think also you need to probably, you know, be able to deliver on promises and show your expertise in the field, right? Um I think the other important thing that I'll just add to that as well is be transparent about your decisions, right? Even the tough ones. Absolutely. All right, be transparent about it. Just don't learn the challenge or understand what it is, go to your office, make a decision, and then not tell anybody about that decision. Um be transparent about why you made that decision, what were the factors, what were the variables in that. Uh and I think the last thing is it's okay to make mistakes as a leader, as long as you uh can admit that you made a mistake and you're hold yourself accountable to that. Um, I think that's an uh goes a long way in building trust with your team.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

I agree. I I think the it's also the the consistency in in everything that you do and your team knows what to expect and how you'll react. So it's like you said, the the integrity and and the other elements that Ernie talked about, but it's it's also consistently being that leader that everybody can rely on and know, okay, well, Renee is not gonna lose his shit when we talk about this because he's got a history of of this and that. And uh the other piece is so that that builds respect over time, right? With with consistency and and being that person, but it's also that likability, it it's easy in in the moment, right? But it makes it difficult over time. And I found that out earlier in in my career when when I was younger. So if I knew like I had to talk to Renee about something, but we would sit down and then you know him and I would talk, and it's like you'd say, Oh, well, I did that because blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Well, okay, you know, don't let it happen again or whatever. And then you'd go off and do the same thing, and I'm like, but he likes me, you know? And being able to, I'd it would be a few talks to where I've I finally like got it, okay. Like, we have to do this, we have to move forward. And once those conversations started to occur, it became easier and easier to have them because it was never as bad as you know you you expected it to be. You know, you figured the person would be like, oh, screw you, like da-da-da-da-da. Most of the time people are they know when stuff is off. Like you'll you will have the people that are combatative at times. Most of the time, people know they can own it up. I yeah, I made a mistake, you know, I'll fix it going forward. And it's a lot easier conversation than you anticipate.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah. Yeah, I I I agree. I mean, I think I I think along with that is you know, being empathetic. Right? Listening, listening actively to that staff person, that member, right? Listen actively, acknowledge the issue, um, acknowledge the challenge, but also on the other side of things, acknowledge their efforts as well. Um, and you know, celebrate wins, uh, give credit where it's due. I think that fosters like ability, right? And and then you can be easily, you're easily approachable if if folks understand where you're coming from, if folks understand, okay, he, you know, Renee is not going to get upset with me. He's gonna listen and uh he might respond with some firmness, potentially, uh, but at least he listens to me, acknowledged uh what was happening, and we moved forward from there.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

I I have a question for for the the panel here. Uh I think between the two of you, there's decades of leadership there. Uh because it's it's it's something that uh it's something that I sort of still struggle with as a leader. Um and that is as a person, I want people to like me. Uh that's just my personality. That's Ernie Epley, that's who I am. Um I I enjoy a good time. And I think most people are in that that boat. Um, but is there anything wrong with wanting to be liked as a leader and and trying to strike a balance between lead uh likability and respect?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

I I don't believe so. I think what I've learned over time is it's it's not one or the other. It's not being respected or being likable, and you've got to choose one or the other. I don't believe that. Um I believe that there's you gotta balance both. There is room for both gaining respect and being likable. And again, that I think combining both really creates a sustainable influence. Uh, and I think it goes a long way towards creating a positive team culture. So I think you can, I think you really can do both, right? You you want to gain respect equals trust in your ability and character, right? That's what you want. That's what it is. Uh, and then like ability, right? People enjoy your personality and your presence. You know, they like to come to work. They have no fear in coming into your office, right? And I think aiming for both of those can only lead to success and and up or in a real positive, you know, team environment.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

I think well, just to add on, I I think everybody wants to be liked. Like even the hard asses deep down want to be liked. I think it's when the the need to be liked encroaches, and then you make decisions based on that feeling of I I need to be liked, so I'm going to jeopardize this or make that decision or not hold this person accountable. So I I think just the distinction between wanting to be liked and feeling like you need to be liked is just something to be aware of. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

I think I think you hit the nail on the head too, and it's something that we hammer quite a bit on this show pretty hard, is is the balance, the need for balance. And uh, you know, I give example yesterday. I had a uh one of the team members come into my office, and this person is rarely in my office. Um she's a driver, and uh the way our sort of uh operations are is I'm sort of two stops, three stops removed from uh the the ground level. Uh and so our our operations supervisor was out of the office. So she came to me with something, and you know, having a background in operations, I actually like the challenge here and there. Um I can't take on take it on all the time and do my my duties. But um, you know, once we got it started getting to talk about it, there was a point where, you know, it's a very pleasant conversation, very, very uplifting. She was very happy for the support, but it it towards like the middle part to the end of our conversation, she started heading in a direction where I'm like, I I need to I need to step in here and just just to what to what you said earlier is is making a firm statement, like, look, uh ooh, what you said there, like, you know, in my head, I'm like, oh, you probably shouldn't have told me that. But but in the moment, I'm like, well, I I have to correct it now, right? It's it's here. And so it it wasn't even anything like uh there was no discipline or anything, but it it was something that, oh, now that I'm aware of this, look, this is what you know, you just told me you you've been doing things this way. Um, I can't have you do that, you know, and and this is how we gotta fix it. And then the top, and then she's like, oh, well, we're on this, something else sprung up, right? Um it it just kind of came down to um yes, and and and not to not to sound like I'm I'm being flipping or anything, but it really did come down to yeah, that uh that is within your job description, and you are on the clock, and and yeah, you are expected to to complete that duty. And then she, you know, she's like, well, I just don't like to. I'm like, well, let me tell you something. And it got back to the likability part, right? After being like, you know, laying down the line, like, there's a lot of things in my job description that I don't like to do. You know, I don't particularly enjoy X. And you know, we just went on talking about it. But um, I think it all goes back to that balance where we did have the conversation where I was firm, and I I can't move on that, right? Because if I start doing that for you, I gotta do it across 40 drivers, and that's just not sustainable. Right. And so there was a level of both respect and likability gained in that in that moment, and which earlier in my career, full disclosure, I probably would have just let it go. And then then she would have left that meeting think, oh, I told Ernie I do this and and thought it was okay. And then all of a sudden we got a problem that's growing and festering that I could have stopped right when I was made aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Yeah. No, I I I absolutely agree with that. I think one of the kind of tips, right, uh, and trying to balance um respect versus likability, right? Is and along with what you're saying, right? Set boundaries without being harsh. What what what do we what do I mean by that? Especially, for instance, like in an agency of just over 300 people, right? You need to enforce standards fairly and consistently. And people are watching. People are watching how you responded or the decision you made in this scenario versus this other scenario. They're watching. Um, so I think enforcing standards fairly and consistently is key. And yeah, yes, you can be firm on principles. Definitely firm on principles. Um, but you can also be somewhat maybe flexible on methods when possible and when appropriate. Um and so I think there you've got to try to find that balance as well. Um, not every situation is the same, uh, but you know, treating everyone with equal respect, you can certainly do that. Everyone can be treated with respect. Uh avoiding favoritism, let's say. Um that that that you you you need to try to do that as well. But I think um, yeah, I mean, setting boundaries without being harsh, I think you you can be firm on principles, you can be flexible where necessary, and I think that that lends itself towards again that balance of respect versus likability.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Do either of you have a time in in your career where the I don't even know if you necessarily had the the need, but do do you guys have an instance where trying to be liked cost you credibility or anything else in the in the moment?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm I'm trying to just trying to think out loud and and kind of quickly here. Well, I mean, I guess I can go to the example, Ryan, where you and I crossed paths, right? A previous agency that I was at, um, there was a particular department that um not to the fault of the the employees and the staff within that department, but there was some there was a big decision to be made. That particular department and and that budget, we were that that budget was bleeding money. And that's because just uh it it was an enterprise type of department where residents pay for this particular service, and the rates that the residents were paying um did not cover the costs. That those rates hadn't been increased for many, many, many years. Yet the costs kept going up. So there was a decision to be made. Thankfully, it wasn't a decision that I had to make, right? It was the city council of that particular city that had to make the decision. But as the director of public works at the time, I was the face of that issue. I was the face of that decision. Again, although it wasn't my decision, I was the face of that decision. So The employees, because I was the face, because I was the one keeping them um posted on status, how we're you know, how the process is going. I was the one to explain that to them. City council wasn't coming to the to the guys, you know, on a personal level. I was the one sharing, here's where we're at, here's where we're going. And so I became the decision maker, again, although I wasn't. And I tried to feel, I tried to be likable, right? I still wanted to be likable. I wanted to be empathetic because these guys could potentially lose their government job, was the ultimate decision. And I was empathetic. Um yet the facts remained as they were. And so it was it was hard. I I again I wanted to be likable. I didn't want to be that bad guy that that uh could be providing the information to the actual decision makers. Um, and then they make the decision, which in fact they made that decision that listen, listen, we're gonna have to get rid of this department and we're gonna have to go third-party contractor to come in and provide those services. So um, so in fact, they did. That third-party contractor, we require that they hire these guys, and a lot of those guys did go to that company. So that was good. That was a good thing. But obviously, as a government employee, there are certain benefits you you have as a government employee that you now are going to lose as a private employee. And so that was difficult. That was probably one of the hardest moments and times in my career, right? I still wanted to be liked. Um and that was that was difficult because again, I was the face of that decision. So it was hard.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Do you feel like they they understood, or was there initial backlash at first that that made it more difficult for you?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

I think there was some, I think there was definitely understanding. I know when I would have different sessions with them, Q ⁇ A's with them to give them updates, you know, they would ask questions. Uh, and I, you know, when I would give answers and it I would give the facts, I I I do recall seeing guys, you know, in the break room, nodding their heads, understanding what was happening. They didn't like it, but they understood it.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

I think in in my example is is of wanting to be liked. It it happened early in my career, and it and it it was a situation where um as as a trans as leader of a transportation department, a school district, our work just ties right in with school sites, with CNS, which is the child nutrition system, like, you know, trying to get them there for breakfast. Like there's a lot of moving parts where we are an integral cog in that machine. And um it was one of the first sort of joint task force meetings I've had I had with other department heads. And one of them I had known from a previous employment, and I really liked this person. We got along. And and to if I think that's why me and Ryan are friends, because I was about to say, if if if you want to get me to like you, get me to laugh, and I'll probably, you know, uh, you know, that that's a good way to get on my good side, is is say something maybe borderline inappropriate and and uh get me the laughing and chuckling. And and I'm like, I can trust this guy. Ryan was born that way, he can't help it. Uh yeah, and so like that. So I had this relationship with this person, and they're you know, the head of a department. And um, you know, in in in in this task force meeting, there was work, and she's like, you know, hey, historically, this has you know been something that our department has handled. Can your department handle this? And I should have made it, you know, hindsight being 2020, I should have gone back and so, you know, let me talk to the team, let me see, make an informed decision. But I made a snap decision because I liked this person, I wanted this person to like me. And, you know, I was like, yeah, we could do that. And then, you know, once I took the lid off the whole operation, I was like, oh boy, my team is gonna be really like, oh, this is I thought this was just you know a quick maybe one you know hour a week task or whatever. And it it ended up working out, but in that moment, it really like exploded, and I had to really get creative and how I was gonna break it to the team. Uh, it it it definitely led to a lot of you know looks and side eyes. Why are we taking this work? It's their department, it's always been theirs, you know. And you know, and in that moment, trying to be liked by, you know, my colleagues in a district, because you know, I I do have to work depend on these departments. They have to depend on me. And uh a healthy relationship between department heads is it's key for every any any operation I've been part of. And trying to be liked right away kind of kind of messed things up on my end. But again, it all worked out, but it cost me.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

So I got a question for you guys. So there's kind of two scenarios, right? You you are an employee that gets promoted, and now you're managing your peers, which can be difficult when you've been cordial and friendly and and have these relationships with people that now you have authority over more or less, or you're coming into a new situation where you need to be respected. And I mean, I've had both as as a leader and manager, but I've also seen it as an employee where people come in and the person that comes in and tries to be liked right away, people are like, oh, this person is weak, you know, blah, blah, blah. But then you have the hard ass that comes in, it's like, oh, screw this, let's get this guy out of here. So it's like, how do you balance coming in as a leader or a manager into a new organization, balancing that line to try and get buy-in over the team? And have either of you been in a situation where you've been promoted internally and now you have the authority and responsibility over people that you have spent years as you know, friends with?

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Yeah, I I I can think of uh a scenario or two where that happened. I think the my previous agency that I worked at, uh I was the city engineer just overseeing the engineering department for about five years. Then I became the director of public works, overseeing multiple departments, right? Um I I I think I think what helps that transition is really trying to be authentic, no matter where you're at. When you're working alongside folks, right, be authentic. Be who you are. Um and so when that time comes when you're the one that got promoted, you're not really changing the title, has changed, but you're really still who you are. Um and I think the other thing is you you you can't try to please everyone, um unfortunately. Um it's not that easy. Um, but as long as you know your time, if you happen to be at one agency like this previous agency, I was there for 10 years. So people knew me. People knew who I was, and they were actually like excited for me when I got that promotion. They wanted to see me in that role. And so it it it didn't, it it wasn't such a difficult transition, thankfully, um, because I was just being who I am and I shared my values with people and I shared my visions openly with people. Um, I think people respect authenticity and and they like leaders who are relatable, right? And I think that was that was important for me um uh in my time, especially in you know my previous my previous position. Uh, and and that really helped me.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

I'm I'm glad you took that one on because I've never promoted from within play within place. I've always uh, you know, it's been a a a shift in in agencies. Um but what's crazy about that, and sort of ironic in the same way, is outside of the uh the trust that you built with your peers and you know over the the the years that you served alongside them, um outside of that, everything else is the same, you know, authenticity, that consistency. Um and and what what you'd be surprised to know is that, or what some people would be some people would be surprised to know is that that trust actually builds really quickly if you keep those things at the forefront. You know, um I always one of my I always open with whenever the the three times I've you know moved uh around and and come into uh a team as the leader is telling them, you know, don't I I'm I'm gonna introduce myself. This is you know, the resume is a resume, they don't really care about that, but I want you to know that anything I say from here on out, don't take my word for it. Let me prove it. All I'm asking for is a chance, you know. Give me the chance to show you that I'm gonna have your back, I'm gonna be right there with you. I'll go out and drive a bus with you. I I did it a couple few months back. Like I I've I've I've really not only made that pledge at the beginning, but really put my money where my mouth is when it came time to cash that check. And it it you're never gonna gain uh uh the amount of respect until like we alluded to it earlier, until your your actions are showing not only that you're gonna back what you said, but even when it's not advantageous to you, like people aren't people aren't stupid. They know they've had managers who don't want to work alongside them. They've had you know that. And so they see the the true authentic self um more than you know, you ain't gonna BS them, they're adults, right? So yeah, a lot of the the through lines are are actually the same in in that regard. And the trust actually comes pretty quick if that if you if you lead with that. Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah, so a lot of the things that that we've talked about is uh being okay with with not being liked and knowing that it's not your job to to be everybody's friend, uh letting go of that that need for universal approval and knowing that there are going to be people that don't like you, you know, it's just unavoidable. Uh we talked about um kind of the difference between being kind and being agreeable, and how moving and allowing people to do whatever they want just for to make things easier is obviously not a good thing. And uh I think just overall that there's a an understanding of a certain level of discomfort in being a leader and being okay in managing that and and trying to find that balance. And we've talked about on the show before, not everybody is cut out for leadership, and that's okay, you know. Um, but those that are, it is a constant mental uh uh drain and load on top of everything else that that that you're responsible for. Um and I guess just kind of uh the th those pieces, when you guys started to uh incorporate those in in your own careers, was there something that that shifted for you when you when you stopped trying to be liked and took the approach that it is okay that sometimes people don't like you or or or don't disagree or don't agree?

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Um yeah, I I I I think so. I I I'll kind of answer that with another example, right? With a with a situation that happened. I talked earlier about the issue that I had to deal with at my previous agency where an entire department um had to be let go, right? Um and when I moved to my current uh agency, um this agency provides the same service. And it was I I I hadn't even thought about this, but it was so weird because my second week here was around the holidays, and uh we had a nice uh holiday party for the agency of just over 300 people. And um there were some folks that came up to me uh once I was introduced as the new guy. Uh there were some folks that came up to me and shook my hand. Welcome, you know, glad you're here, look forward to working with you. Um there was another person that came up to me, uh, shook my hand. Um, and I didn't know who he was. I didn't remember at that at that moment who he was, but he just looked at me and said, Hey, uh, just want to let you know that all these guys here in this department, um, they're all good guys, and you're not gonna do what you did over there, you're not gonna do that here. And I realized in that moment that he was a staff person in that department in that previous agency that left uh because I think he saw the writing on the wall and he left and he came to this city that I have now come to. And so that decision that I was a part of but also looked upon as the guy who made that decision, although it was the city council, um, it was a realization that that moment in time in in that previous agency now follows me where I was. And so it was it was a lesson in okay, realizing that um, again, although I wasn't the one that made that decision, I was certainly a part of it, and that's gonna follow me. So it was a lesson, and now I have to gain the respect. It's not necessarily being liked at that moment, but now gain the respect of this new department. And and and and and and uh bring upon them this understanding that hey, I didn't come here to this agency to do what I did over there. That's not why I was brought here, that's not why I got hired. Now, I can say that in so many words, but it's been uh, you know, just over a year now that I've been in this new, in this new role. And uh I'm gaining that respect and I'm gaining that understanding that yes, oh, okay, we realize he didn't come here for that. And so I think we can start liking him too, right? Um and so um, but it's it's gonna it's gonna be a continued effort. Um, it's gonna be, you know, me coming to more of their monthly meetings at 6 a.m. in the morning when they have a full room of a hundred guys uh and gals. Uh and it's gonna, you know, showing my face and saying hi and shaking hands and asking how folks are doing, um, and then realizing, and hopefully they can realize that, yeah, I'm not here to do what I did. Hopefully it's there. But it it was uh it was a hard, cold lesson.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Yeah, it seems like a real full circle moment for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a few of those. Um, one, I wanted to kind of shift gears a little bit and have a moment of, I guess, vulnerability here and um bounce something off off of you too. Um we've all had bosses or seen bosses or seen folks in leadership who are, I mean, at various stages of their career, but most of the time this I've seen it and observed this happening towards the latter stages of the career where I mean, after so long in this in this uh in the leadership role, they begin to feel jaded and be jaded and not even caring if they're liked and only sort of going through the motions and whether they're respect. You know, there's there's that uh sort of disconnect moment. And if I'm again being completely vulnerable, the longer I do this, the more I see like, oh, I can tell how you fell into that trap. Because it would be so much easier for me to to lead with a, hey, do as I say because I'm the director of transportation. And and and it's and not really care about the fallout, right? Only care about the end product, you know. And um, I I guess what I'm trying to ask is, is am I the only one that that feel that kind of has to fight that and has to be like, no, man, remain engaged, uh, stay in the pocket, so to speak. Don't slip into a bad habit of, you know, up there's a certain amount of folks, like we said earlier, not gonna please everyone. Um and there, that is the reality of the situation that I've seen with leadership. Is I've always said you talk to people within my department, and half of them are gonna love me, and half of them are gonna hate me. And I'm I I feel like I'm doing the best I can to lead with integrity and and and and so on and so forth. And no matter what I do, those people who are gonna hate me are gonna hate me. So I guess uh an easy trap that I kind of see folks fall into, and I've been tempted to fall into, is like, you're gonna hate me anyway, so screw it. You know what I mean? And not really care about that piece of it. Um, so is that something that that uh that that you've you've had to to to to come across and and you know stay stay grounded and stay focused, or is that something that uh that that isn't so common? I Orion, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

I was just gonna say I I I worked for a company where there were there was an owner that was a really gruff guy and was very direct and was just he seemed angry to everybody and was very off-putting. And I think it's it's one of those things where the the higher you go, the more responsibility you have. So the more stress you have, and you're used, you've been there so long that you've seen it all, you've seen people come and go. So the attachment that you have when you're a lower-level leader and manager isn't the the same because you're not necessarily rising up the ranks anymore, like with the same group of people, like people come and go, you've been there, and I think that the thing that really hit me for for this situation and being more open and understanding of that same type of scenario is as soon as he decided not to be an owner anymore, sold his shares, and became kind of a uh more or less a contract employee that was still tied to the company, his demeanor, attitude, everything changed. He was much more happy, uh outgoing, willing to work with people, serve as a mentor. And it was just like the craziest thing that I've seen professionally, where you just get so used to people that have been there. And like you said, that that sense of jadedness. I don't know if it's necessarily jadedness or if it or if it's you're so in invested personally. And I mean, you're financially, well, obviously not in the public sector, but in a in a company where you're an owner, director, things like that, a lot of times you're you're vested, you're bought in, you have shares in the company, whatever it is, your your personal stress and everything else at a such a higher level that you don't have time to not get work done. You need people to be productive. And I think it's easier, or well, maybe not easier, but I maybe you you just get used to that sliding detachment from caring about people's feelings at the at the expense of making sure things get done.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And I'll use uh my answer will be in another kind of situation that I'll never forget it. And I'll use it, it's with another person, not necessarily me, but um it has certainly helped me in my growth as a leader. Uh, this was almost 20 years ago, working for another local agency. I was a principal engineer at the time. Uh, the director of public works um was kind of one of those guys, right? Just kind of lead with fear in a in one respect. Um, smartest guy, one of the smartest guys that I've ever met. Like he, you know, I come from my philosophy is, you know, hire people smarter than you. I kind of buy into that philosophy. Hire people smarter than you. You don't, you can know a little bit about a lot, but he knew everything about everything. That's how I felt about it. He he was just super smart. He gave me a task one day. I had to look into the subdivision map act book. Not easy reading. Uh, and uh I had I had to look into that book to try to find to find the answer to help kind of solve this particular problem. I took the time to look into it, found what I thought was the appropriate response and the appropriate direction that we needed to follow. Got on the phone with him, he asked me, okay, Renee, what did you find? I said, Well, I think we can do it because this particular section of the subdivision map act says this. And he says, Okay, is that all? And I said, Yeah, that's it. Something kind of snapped in him, and he just started berating me over the phone. Um, because he already knew what I what I realized is he already knew the answer. And he was giving me an opportunity to learn. Uh, but he already knew the answer, and my answer was only half ass. And I think he expected he I don't he expected more of me. He expected me to put more time into it, and I did it. And as I said, he berated me on the phone. Lesson learned, thank you very much. I got it. Subsequent to that, as I'm you Know shaking in my boots still and not wanting to go see him whenever that next time was gonna be. Um he started reaching out to me more. And I think one of the things when we talk about balance and like you know, balancing likability and respect is investing in relationships, right? Invest in the relationship, take time to know who your team is beyond the metrics of work, right? Show interest in their growth and well-being. And that's what he was starting to do with me. Did start off well, but he started showing more interest uh in my growth and development. Uh, and I will say that since then, in these last 20 years, he has become a mentor of mine. Uh and and somebody I can call on if I have a question um about a decision that I need to make. So um it is it's an interesting kind of path that that has taken, but I respect the guy to no end. Uh, and like I said, I I I use him as a mentor now. But uh, you know, invest in relationships potentially, as we talk about ourselves, right? And maybe there's that faction of people who don't necessarily like you. We might need to make that effort to invest in relationships, right? Show interest in their growth and well-being. And maybe they don't turn around. That's a part of that's the part of the hat that we wear, right? We can't please everyone, as we said earlier.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

So do you go into everything whole ass now? You don't half ass anything anymore. I rely on others.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

I rely on others. You know, uh as as we talk go review of what we've covered today, I think one of the big key takeaways is uh for someone, again, just speaking from my perspective, is like it's okay not to be liked. It's okay, you're not gonna please everyone. We said that a lot today. Um, but there's a difference between saying it and really understanding it, right? When you make that decision and you see the the looks and the the shaking of the heads and and um and all those things, but but just being okay with that and also letting letting your team around you uh really see you know why this decision was made to the extent possible, you know, there's always confidential and and every situation is different. But um transparency is is is going to be your your best friend there. Um and and then leading with integrity and leading with intent, authenticity, man Renee, you you really uh hit the nail on the head there, man. Uh you're you're not gonna BS these people, you know. They're there you're your team's gonna know if you're you know if you know your first off, if you know your shit. Second, can you back it? You know, all that yeah. Um so uh yeah, it it it's it's it's okay not to be liked. I've I I learned that today, although I I knew that before. It feels good to have other folks that are in similar positions tell me that that it's okay to want to be liked. Um uh so you know, if you're out there as a listener and and and have feedback for us, we always love to hear it. Um Renee, thank you so much for being part of the the the program today. You know, I look up at our uh at our episode timer and I'm like, whoa, there's no way we're at that time. So uh I really enjoyed having having you on today. And I uh I believe I speak for Ryan when I say that.

unknown 47:23

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Thank you, thank you for the opportunity. What a what a great thing you're doing. Appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Until next week, leading ain't easy. You don't have to do it alone. Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's RefraMerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.