Episode 20 - Addressing Management Inaction (feat. John Moore)

What do you do when the same person keeps causing problems and management does not seem to be doing anything about it?

In this episode of Leading Ain’t Easy, Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley are joined by returning guest John Moore to unpack a workplace issue that frustrates employees and leaders alike: repeated complaints, little visible action, and the slow erosion of trust that follows.

Together, they explore:

• why leadership action is not always visible to employees
  
  
• when management may be building a case behind the scenes
  
  
• when inaction is real and leaders are avoiding the hard call
  
  
• how “productive” bad actors often get protected
  
  
• why unresolved issues spread and poison culture
  
  
• what leaders should consider when inheriting a broken team
  
  
• and how to communicate clearly without violating confidentiality
  
  

The conversation also takes a personal turn as Erny shares that he will be stepping back from regular co-hosting duties, with John stepping in as Ryan’s new ongoing co-host.

This is an honest conversation about accountability, leadership pressure, team morale, and the cost of letting known problems linger too long.

If workplace frustration has ever made you wonder whether leadership sees what is happening, this episode will hit home.

Leading Ain’t Easy is hosted by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, a career and leadership coaching practice helping veterans and other professionals realign their work and lead with purpose.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development.

Subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

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If this episode resonated, please leave a review, as it helps more leaders find us.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, Ernie Effley, founder of Bus Pro Network, as we unpack the highest, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. Welcome back to Leading Ain't Easy. Today we wanted to focus on a topic. We received some feedback from the last episode where there was an example where we talked about an employee that was a recurring problem as kind of a joke that Ernie and I did, and somebody said that it would be an interesting topic to explore. So today we wanted to focus on management isn't doing anything after multiple complaints about the same person and our lived experience there. You may notice John Moore back. He was our first guest when we started having guests. And uh we're happy to welcome him back for this episode. And uh yeah, welcome. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, welcome back, John. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Oh, thank you. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

So getting into this topic, uh, it was again one of a listener uh suggested topic. It's something that is I think every leadership personnel deals with it at some point, some level. And it's one of those catch 22s, it's real paradoxical because you want to address the the elephant in the room, right? Um, and it's you know, management isn't doing anything. We, you know, this this you know, X, whether it's a customer or an employee that that seems to be having trouble and and it doesn't seem like management is following through. And uh, you know, one of the one of the things that we talked about a lot on the show is leading with empathy. And if and if you are doing that, you are able to put yourself in that employee shoe. Heck, you probably have been that employee before. You might be that employee now. I know that that there have been times in in my leadership uh career where colleagues of mine where it didn't feel like they were lifting their weight, and I'm like, hey, other directors are doing this and you're not, you know. So I completely understand where that uh tension comes from. And I I think what I want to do, what what my goal is for this episode, is A, to get the perspectives of the subject matter experts in the room, but also put the message out there that hey, it there are a lot of things that happen behind the scenes that that you're not aware of. And I also have to remind myself of that, right? To just reinforce that and also acknowledge that, hey, there are leaders out there who just aren't addressing it. And and it really is that is a valid critique. And that is a that is something you are going through. How do you navigate that, right? And so without getting into everything all at once, that's sort of where I want to wanted to begin today's episode with is as an introduction, like that's some of the topics we're gonna cover today.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So I guess on on that note, being in a position where you're observing somebody that is consistently being a problem or affecting the rest of the team and it not being addressed, it definitely lends itself to eroding the chemistry and the culture of the team and and the organization, because you see leadership's repeated lack of of I don't want to say intervention, but but essentially an intervention.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

And then from if I if you if I can chime in, I think it's um is an assumption. I'll come from this angle. Yes. Assumption that leadership is not doing something, right? Because uh from my aspect of it and having had those experiences, what's happening are one of two things. One is that there's a strategy being built, right, to either uh build a case to identify different incidents and different things that are happening, so that therefore when I take my case to HR, there is something to take to HR, not just rumor mills, right? So there has to be a strategy that's built. That's number one. Then two, once we have gone with this scenario of HR, HR is telling you or asking you, you know, and or advising you which direction are we going? Are we managing this person out or we want to cancel this person because of the things in which they're doing is not really at the level of managing them out? Or is it that we are managing them out? And if there is a management out or managing out scenario, you have to build a case because we don't want lawsuits to happen. We don't want to be out of compliance with certain things. So we just can't do, you know, anything we want to do because they can come back and bite us. Now, how it appears to the employees is that nothing is being done. And of course, as is being uh taken care of with with uh HR, you can't really display what's being done to another employee in reference to disciplinary. But what you can do to try to solve for that is you can try to meet them where they are. I do understand it's frustrating. I do it feels like nothing is happening, but believe me, we are looking at this issue and and things will be corrected as needed be. You know, something real general, something that's not stating that something is happening, but something is happening.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

I that's a that's an excellent tool because my sort of knee-jerk reaction is, and I've I've said this in as many words, like it's none of your business, right? Like what I am following up and let me do my job, right? That's the the knee-jerk reaction. That's the very human part of me is to to feel attacked, saying, Oh, wait, wait, wait, you're telling me as manager I'm not doing my job? Well, let me tell you how I am doing my job, right? And so I think the the tactic of that you just presented is is is so much it's more effective. And I have employed that before, but it, you know, like like I said, the knee-jerk reaction is is, and I've said things like this before saying, look, I can't discuss with you the follow-up that was done, but believe me, trust me, it's getting done. And uh another sort of I guess tool to put in the tool belt is is let them know, like look, listen, all of you here, all of us in the state of California, we have emplo we have rights, you know, and so um you're not privy to all the the details of the situation. I can't bring you in on that. Um, but but we are exploring and we are following up. And it feels so sometimes that feels cheap to to say that, you know, because it feels like you're you're coming at it from an angle of just trust me, bro, I got you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

But at the same time, leading into what you said, I think I would also, and I know I've done it, is put them in that employee's shoes as to how you would the process to be. You wouldn't want a quick action that's not researched, that's not investigated, that's not, you know, make sure that all of the T's are are crossed before disciplinary happens or a person is terminated, right? You would want that same fairness because yeah, people are gonna have gripes about someone because they may not even care for them. It might not even be real, real things. We got to investigate it. And we can't just, you know, react because you guys are all coming at leadership at the same time. Now, if it's something drastic like sexual harassment, things like that, yeah, things do move more swiftly in those matters, but you don't have to do a lot. You just really go from the case and you rock and roll. But it all depends. It all depends. What do you think, Ryan?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

No, I was thinking about sort of scenarios where I mean, that's absolutely the case where management is working behind the scenes, um, you know, that you did you aren't necessarily privy to. But I've also seen situations where management really doesn't care and they go through the motions of looking into something, but that person is a producer, you know, they are moving the bottom line and they are a driver of of output that may be more uh uh I guess I don't want to say more valuable. I I say they they move the needle more financially because they are somebody that is is an output or whatever, but they're in a management position, having no business in management because most of the complaints are about their management and the way that they treat people and how they you know crap on their subordinates. And that goes unchanged and unchecked because this person is producing. And I think that that is it, it might be a I don't want to say it's an isolated issue, but I think it it's one where I've been in a position where I've seen firsthand at the level that I had access, that nothing was being done about this person. They didn't care because the person was producing, which is another dynamic and struggle.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

But go ahead, Ernie, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Well, I I I was just gonna say I could I can empathize with that because I've been there. And I I wanted to give just a quick example of a previous uh place of employment. There was uh uh we were having a meeting with all of the the leadership across the departments in the in in this agency, and I was sitting next to uh uh a fellow director and they we we were doing a budget exercise where we had to pull up and say, hey, you know, we're we're you know, we're over budget by 30, 40 percent, whatever the figure was. We need each of you to take a look at your overall budgets and find some, you know, some some places in your discretionary budget where you can cut. And we need to cut approximately 15% across, you know, and so we're doing this exercise. And there was a certain what I thought was very basic and very entry-level for anyone who's managing a budget as as a as a director to pull up this report and you know, sort of then go from there and see where we can cut. And we're all doing that. We had break off into our little cohorts, and the person next to me, uh, who I might say is making probably a hundred thousand more dollars a year than I am, um, and and they they've been there for a long time. Uh, I had been at this institution long enough to know that, man, that things bottleneck that department a bunch, you know? And so, and that's a for me, that's a direct, you know, spotlight on the leader. Like, hey, if everything's bottlenecking here, all the all of us other departments are doing our jobs. It's bottlenecking here, what's going on with the leadership there, right? Um, and then, you know, we're the this this person leans over to me and says, like, hey, how do you pull up that report? And I'm just I'm floored. I'm like, what the hell do you mean? You're over here making a hundred G's more than I am a year, and you don't know how to pull up a fiscal report to show your overall while my my accountant does that. Your accountant makes those what about when you need to make a transfer? What about, you know, and I start like you know, going in a little bit, and she's like, no, they just handle everything. I'm like, ah, that's why everything bottlenecks there, because there's no like, you know, and so I I didn't necessarily go from there to talk to, you know, a senior leadership to say this, but uh cut to a few weeks later, we're we're in another round table where it's just certain divisions, um, not necessarily the whole district management team. And somebody out of frustration starts saying, Well, yeah, this department XYZ, and then and I kind of chime in and and out of frustration, I'm like, yeah, and why isn't you know the board or this person, why are they doing anything? You know, I a couple weeks ago, I was, you know, I gave them the whole story that I just gave you all, and and I had to really it was it was sort of uh if looking back on it, I I I wish I hadn't been so emotional about it because I feel like I could have done it in a lot more professional way, but I said this our topic in so many words. Like, hey, this sounds like this has been going on for a while. What are you guys doing about it? You know, this is affecting the service and and and across everything. So yeah, I I definitely have been there and I and I know and and and maybe when I'm done, like I I want to hear like some tools that that helped y'all in the in in the past and kind of navigate through that situation. And I'll I'll just say this and and shut up. But uh it was it was um the way I ended up, you know, sort of working through it was going back to, hey, you could only control what you can control, Ernie. You could only you need to focus here because the more I focus out there, I'm not, you know, my eyes aren't here, and things are gonna start slipping up here, and then I'm gonna be right there with it, and I'm gonna be contributing to the problem rather than being part of a solution and just doing what I can do and letting that process play out. Um, the process did play out.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

I'm glad you mentioned the uh the frustration piece because we talk about teams and how it can be affected by this type of managerial lack of stepping in and how it can erode the team. And just after a while, like that frustration mounts and people stop reporting anything because they feel like management isn't gonna do anything anyway, you know, and you end up losing a lot of people that they don't conform, so they just leave, you know, or or they become disengaged and stop producing like like like they used to.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

I would like to come from both sides scenario. I want to come from a management side and from uh an outward-looking side. From a management side, you have one of your key players that's that's producing and is making the team number one over and over and over again, right? But they're also a problem. So you're trying to weigh this scale. Do I come out of the ranks of being number one? Do I come out of the bonus pools? I'm making my, you know, I'm making my bonuses, my staff are making their bonuses, you know, all this is happening because we have, let's say, uh two or three people on our team that are producing and they're really carrying the team, right? And so in that, yeah, we have some bad actors in those three. Those bad actors are um making the team feel certain kinds of way, and they might be uh bringing disgruntledness and all those things from a leadership standpoint. You try to weigh those pros and cons because you're sitting there saying, what outweighs the most? Do, does the complaints about this employee outweigh that everybody on the team is making their bonuses? We're ranking number one. No one is glaring eyes on us 24 hours, seven days a week to saying you're not producing, you're not making your numbers. You look at this, and it's and it's really a hard aspect for a leader to say, well, damn, if I get rid of my three, then I'm gonna be effed because now I got to catch all up six months to a year later to get to where we are now. So that's where that paralyzing of making that decision kind of comes. It's like, fuck, I'm gonna be in this situation that I can't move left or right. So that's one aspect of it. Then you have another aspect of it where I know this for a fact. Uh the person will come to work drunk, high, uh, and every day coming in this way, and they're a producer. They are a producer. They get out there, they sell, they sell roofs, they sell, you know, all this over construction stuff to make the to make the company money, and they're getting money in. Nothing is ever done about it with the simple fact that they produce. And so for years, they kept this employee on because of the simple fact that they produce. So it's not always this black and white to say the manager's not doing anything. They're looking at bigger picture that let's say, and this is no, you know, no disrespect to any employee, that the employee is not privy to. The employee is only privy to is what they see in the now. What they see now, it makes them feel the way they feel. We get it. Totally get it, totally understood. But what the leadership standpoint is supposed to be not only for now, middle and future. And whenever they make their decisions, the decisions have to be precisionally cut. They can't just be cut and not think about the the outcome of that. What are you guys thinking of that? What is that thought around that?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Well, you said the leadership manages what what they can see, right? Or people see the result of those leadership decisions. But there's also times where you have executive leadership who would be making the decision to terminate or or whatever else. And a lot of times they only know what they hear. Like they're removed enough from the situation that it's one of those frustrations where people make their complaints and and they bring it, they see no action, they stop complaining. And the managers that would make the decision on uh accountability and everything else for certain individuals may think, oh, well, things have changed. There's no more complaints coming in. And it's like, well, it's still happening. It's just people gave up because they don't they know nothing's gonna happen. And it's just I've seen that too.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

So yeah, so I buy. I've also seen it to where um the boss and that employee are friends because that person gone up the ranks, and now that person is a friend of that employee, and they have the difficulties of now managing that friend, right? Or telling that friend, I'm gonna put you on a disciplinary action because blah, blah, blah. I know someone who just went out of town with their boss. And at the same time, they're gonna exceed all of their vacation. That boss is gonna have to write up that employee because they've exceeded that vacation timeframe. And that could cause an infringement on the friendship. But that's also having managerial ethics, right? And knowing what you're supposed to do. And that's where we we are in a dilemma in today's times that they don't do a lot of training on managerial ethics or managerial training period, to be honest with you. That really is rooted in how do I manage, right? Not how do I meet my numbers, not how do I work this report, not I'm talking about how do I really manage people. That's not being done as much.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Well, it's is I mean, I guess uh an element or or it could vary by individual, but there could be a a lack of confidence in handling a a situation and taking the the easy route of just not addressing it.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

True. Absolutely. But the the outcome of that, Ernie, y'all, you know, you let me know if you feel the same. The outcome of that is when you do nothing at all, the problem doesn't get the problem doesn't just disappear in the in the in the shadows. It just continues to get bigger and bigger and bigger and it stretches wider because now a person is saying, well, if she can do it, I can do it. So if she can come in 15 minutes late, now I'm coming in 20 minutes late. And if I don't say anything to her, then I have to say, you know, then it's just a big thing that happens. So there's a a cause and effect.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Yeah, it's it's something that just grows exponentially and it's that has that domino effect, and not just the domino effect where they're all equal, the dominoes get exponentially bigger, meaning the dominoes beating the problems. Um one thing that I wanted to to inter sort of introduce here and interject is is coming from someone who's come in uh and into a situation where I'm now managing these folks. Um previous manager had let this stuff, previous management had let this stuff slide, had you know, um these these these dominoes as they were, these problems are huge now, and I'm inheriting them. And one thing I want to to point out uh in this perspective is that you're going those folks who were going on vacation with the managers, who were the privileged in the previous regime, right? Now that they're gonna they're gonna see, and I use regime just for lack of a better term.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

I saw uh snort on just a bit regime.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yeah. Uh I use it tongue in cheek, by the way. I should say that. But anyway, uh, you know, the what what what you need to understand, what I didn't fail to understand, is now they're gonna see equality as being targeted or being unfair and trying to just communicate to them that no, like I'm treating everyone equal. You were you were a uh uh you were the product of privilege before with previous regime, with the previous management, right? And now I'm just bringing everybody to an equal playing field. I understand where you're gonna feel like you're being slighted and you're not getting the perks you had before. I'm not that that person. I'm not, you know, John Flanagan, who was manager here before. I'm Ernie Epley. And uh, this is how I choose to lead and run. And and and I I would hope that you can see objectively that I'm not giving you anything that I'm not giving uh Kevin, you know, or whoever else the other employee is. Um, so that that's a pitfall that that I think that that certainly wasn't no one ever explained that to me and never gave me that heads up like, hey, these people who were privileged before, now that you're treating them equal, they're gonna feel really some. Some sort of way on it.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

If I can interject, how are you, how are you, two questions. How are you introducing that change? And what is the period of time that you're giving them to adjust to that change before, you know, writing up and all those other things are going to go on?

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Some of it was things that needed to be addressed immediately, and there was no implementation period that I felt as management, not that I felt that I saw like, hey, this can't go on anymore because this is this is something that's grown huge. I need you to understand that we I know this is the way we need to move now. Um and there are certainly other things that weren't as big a deal. I'll use the example of of of uniforms, right? Um this person never wore the uniform before. And to be honest, like we're not gonna fire somebody over a uniform. You know, it's just it's never gonna get to that point. You're it's gonna, I mean, where we're at, right? Okay. Your respect for uniforms just went out the window. They weren't there to begin with. So with certain people, right? Uh so so I guess it it I would have to take it and scale it on. This is a safety issue. This can't change. This has to be addressed right now. There is no window for this. Um you know, the whole uniforms thing. Let let's give that a little bit longer of a runway and and let's see how how we can get better. And and and not, and and and here's another tip that I I I learned is is not waiting until you're at 100% to celebrate. Celebrate the days that you are 2% better. Celebrate the time, like build and build, try and build on that momentum. Say, hey, I noticed you were on time today. Thank you. I know we just had a conversation about that, you know, on a one-on-one, obviously a one-on-one scenario there with the employee. I appreciate you working on this. And it could be that that was the first since your conversation, that was they're only like one out of three. But hey, before they're oh for three, now they're one for three. Let's let's get three for three, right? You know, and sort of build on that.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah, I think that that what do you think, Ryan? Before I chime in, what do you think? What is it?

SPEAKER_01 24:14

I I like that. Go ahead. So sometimes sometimes Ernie Ernie jumps in and says something that I'm like, man, all right. Didn't know you had it in you.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Now, me coming from the aspect that I come from, and I agree with you, Ernie, if it's something that is of uh regulation and things of that, there's still a time frame of implementation, right? To make sure that persons are, because I used to do, I did used to deal with OSHA training and things like that. So there is a time that you got to make sure things are done, right? But I've always found and also gotten direction from from HR is that if we're implementing any form of change, you always give like schedule changes, you know, uh policy changes or whatever, you give them enough time because the adaptability is better. And also the receiving of the change is better because they feel like they are part of it. Like, okay, I gave you, I'm giving you 30 days. Yes, 30 days is good. You think you'll be able to, you know, get your schedule together by 30 days, okay, whatever, you know, or the uniform, or uh making sure that this particular valve is tight because it's it's uh a security or safety. Those kind of things, depending on what they are to your point, uh, some will have to be immediate, but even in the immediate sea, we're still not writing them up because they might have forgotten, kind of thing, right? And then and depending on the extensity of the safety issue, it may be. But at the same time, I've always found that if you give people enough time to adapt to change, they will. They'll be bought in, they will receive it. Um, especially in the example you gave when it was previous management and everybody was running amok and now you're trying to home everyone in. You definitely got to give enough time because think about it, they might have been doing that for years. Yeah. And now you're saying tomorrow everything is different. That's really gonna mess up the morale. That's gonna really not allow, and they're gonna fight against it. And they're gonna, you know, fight against you, period. So to get the buy-in, you give them enough time to do it. And and then you also explain the safety issues and you put them in the company's feet's shoes, you put themselves in the shoes, so that they really have the buy-in to what you know, what the parameters are. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah, perfect, spot on. If I may add to a bit to it, um I have found that you get even, you know, with the runway, you know, giving them the the time to adapt, in addition to getting their feedback, saying, hey guys, look, this is what's been going on for years. Uh we we can't we just can't have that. And here's why, right? And that and don't listen to what I'm saying, listen to the evidence. Here's what, here's why we can't have it. Now, how do we fix it? Uh, I want to hear from you. You're the ones gonna be out there literally with the rubber meets the road. You're gonna be out there doing this. I wanna, I want uh we've identified we need change. I want that change to work for you because if it works for you, it's gonna work for me, you know. So, so I I agree with what you said, just add that little bit on there.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Buy-in is always so, so more supported in change than anything else. Only thing with that is you just have to, some you're going to use and some you're not, and just let them know, hey, I'm open, we're open to suggestions. Some we can do now, some we can do in the future. Um, because then then when you don't implement their their suggestions, it's like, well, what's the point? You know, I and then you're not gonna do it. So you give them some realism around, yeah, these are great ideas. Some of them we can implement today, and some we're gonna look in the future. And it's like at least they were heard.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

And I and I think that sort of even answers the question, too, is like uh we're what some of these issues might have been brought up by other issues saying, hey, this is you know, back to today's topic. Yeah, that's that's a that's a great answer to hey, management is doing something. And sometimes that, like you said, they don't see that from their perspective. And when this feedback does come and say, hey, this is X, Y, Z, and and then you could, I've done this too. I've reminded them, hey, you know what? You know, the meeting, the safety meeting we had over there and these changes we made and this whole process we just went through, that's part, that was from this thing that this very thing that you're bringing me. You know, I I just couldn't make that connection in the meeting and chose not to, but I want you to know that that that there is this is part of that follow-up, and and you know, this is this is that in action, and thank you for bringing that to us. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

And then they really feel special because now they they feel that what is was discussed or brought up now applies and it's applicable and it's changed or it's a part of the change. So absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

And now we're kind of talking about like the the the culture and the result and building back from it, and a lot of the way that you end up is by today's topic of inaction, where the standards and the things that you say that you stand for as a department or division or team or company or whatever, if you're not holding people accountable to those standards, they become meaningless. And then you have the people, you know, the the naysayers working on the inside that start to gossip, new people come in, it's like, oh, well, don't just draw and you know, he won't do anything anyway, blah, blah, blah. And it's just, it becomes more of a challenge the longer you let it go. And then, like Ernie said, you know, he came in, it was a full contaminated, widespread system that that he had to fight back from. And being able to nip those situations in the bud is is absolutely critical as a leader to make sure that you stop it.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Absolutely. And I want to sorry, go ahead, John. No, no, no. I'm just saying, absolutely. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah. No, the one of the I do want to throw this sort of book in that that one uh subtopic we were on is by saying, I want to be really clear. I'm sitting here talking to two of my buddies about this, and it's a great conversation. Let me tell you, in practice, it's not easy. You it's going to be a fight. It's going to be tough. And and that's where leading with intent comes into place. And leading with with a purpose is, you know, what what is your purpose? Are you are you just gonna let this go slide and happen before? We talked about the downfalls, right? So uh just just be in ready, be ready that it's and it's it's you're gonna be in it for the long haul. It's gonna, it's gonna take time. You know, this this we didn't get here overnight. We're certainly not gonna fix it all.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

And know that certain individuals, no matter what you do, will not buy in. No, and will not be happy um either. And and it goes to our our topic too of leading ain't easy because it isn't. It is not for the weak at heart. It really, really isn't, and it's not for those that are not gonna follow the game all the way through the end. Um, you can't stop in mid and say, Oh, I don't want to play anymore. It doesn't work. You know, when it gets hard, I don't want to play anymore. If you see like you're losing, no, you have to go through the whole thing. And that's why a manager has to be a good strategist. And they have to be able to look at every aspect of how things are gonna be effective, how things are not gonna be effective, how I can bring this in, how the cultural changes are gonna. You have to look at almost every, if you're a good manager, if you're not tunnel vision, you have to look at every aspect of the decisions that you're making and how they're gonna affect. Some of that decision making is not going to be in the inf in folks' benefit. That's kind of how, forgive me for saying that the system is rigged that way, that it's not gonna benefit every single individual. It's just not. But what we can do is try our best to make it happen in some way, shape, or form. If they at least get one thing, one thing is better than nothing at all.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah. And just to clarify the the nipping in the bud piece, I don't mean anytime something happens, and unless it's you know an HR issue like like John mentioned before. But it's it's when you start to see a pattern evolving, you need to get in as quickly as possible and and put a stop to it.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

And expand more on that because because why? What happens?

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Well, what happens? Well, it's it's what we've talked about. If if it goes unaddressed and it continues to become a problem, it starts to affect other people. They see that nothing is happening, so their uh uh you know, own accountability starts to drop. They may, you know, get in line with the person that isn't doing the right thing and it becomes a more widespread thing. Or we mentioned before that they disengage, it just destroys the chemistry and the culture and everything that you have. So, but you can't take a single complaint because I could have a bad day, a bad interaction with Ernie. I go complain to John, John reprimands Ernie, and it's like, okay, well, maybe Ernie didn't really do anything at all. It was my own perception of what happened, and I took offense to it. So you can't be quick to jump on an isolated uh uh instances, but it's when you notice a pattern to where Ernie did this to John, and then he did this to me, and then he did it to somebody else. And it starts to become a thing where it's reported. It's like, okay, well, Ernie's becoming a problem. I need to talk to him now.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

I need to address and get this thing stopped. And that's what HR chimes in and says, where we, you know, what are the patterns, what are the complaints? They start to evaluate them and they start to see to build their case, because that is their goal too, to build a case. If they don't have a anything to build a case on, like you were saying, if it was just a one-off, that's not the case. But a case is built based on repetition, same types of, and it just continues to build, build, build. Something needs to happen. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Well, I mean, that that in a public entity and in a larger corporation, you do have HR as an asset and and you know, somebody that can help you. But a lot of times in a in a small company, don't have it. You don't have the luxury of HR. You know, sometimes it's a third party that just manages policy or or maintaining whatever, and you file with them. But the HR responsibilities fall on the leader themselves to track this, work with ownership. And it's just an another layer of complication where there can be relationships that you may not be privy to that make things difficult to navigate.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

So, sort of closing this topic off, I want to invite listeners to consider both sides and hit us with feedback. What issues are you tolerating that your team clearly sees? You know, and and hit us in the comments. And obviously, I don't know if we'll get to the bottom of it in the comments, but you know, we should we could certainly talk about it. Have you raised concerns constructively? Have you documented them for the for the employees? You know, this is these are all good things to to to take home about after today's episode. Um, and and um yeah, let us know where you're listening, hit us up uh with any questions. Uh John, I want to thank you so much for for joining us today for today's topic. Uh before we close with our tagline, I did want to um to mention to the to the audience, uh I might stumble my way through this, but uh I want to announce that John being so gracious enough with his time to join us today is the start of something new, sort of a pivot, if you will, in the uh hosting responsibilities and the uh of where this podcast is going. Um I for personal reasons that I don't I don't want to put out there for the whole world to know, but I'm needing to take a step back. Um and I think if I could in this moment say that don't be afraid to know when it's time. We talked, we we had a whole episode on it of of of putting up boundaries, right? And not to say that that this this podcast has been anything other than super therapeutic for me. It's it's something that Ryan and I took very seriously. I think I'm at a point in my professional life and my personal life where I I think I said yes to too many things and I'm getting stretched a little thin, and it was it came to a point where I had to really consider where am I going to cut, right? Because I only have 24 hours in the day. This podcast is something that is intensely personal for me. I I I'm part of it with one of my best friends in the world, probably fifth. Ryan, you're you're you're number five at this point. Um five words.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

I would have been on my space list.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Um I've met some incredible people, John. You being one of them. I I sincerely mean that from the heart. I hope you feel that, brother. Uh I I I can't thank you enough for for for uh for being willing to step in, and and I almost it almost feels like a failure, and I don't uh it's it's I'm just at the point in my life where I need to move some things around. I'm not going anywhere. You're not gonna get rid of me that easy, Ryan. Um or audience. Um we're just gonna shift over. John's gonna be taking over uh co-hosting duties, uh moving here on out. Uh my plan is to be here where time and space allows. But um I I I do want to just wrap this whole thing up by expressing my sincerest and heartfelt thank you to Ryan and for making something like this possible. Uh thank you to John for for stepping up in a massive way. And this is not the end. Um it's just a shift. And um I have complete faith and trust that John, you're gonna take this and be a hundred times better than anything I could have ever done with it. And um I think I think if I could just tag along here and there, I would greatly appreciate it. I love you both. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

And and can I say something real quick if you don't mind, Ryan? I think it's awesome, um, Ernie, for you to identify what you need. You know, I think this is important. Men don't do it enough to identify what they need for themselves, right? And to be honest with the fact of what is too much and what's too little, right? You have now paved a way for me and for others, if you will, in this sphere to be able to talk about topics that need to be talked about in a in a very comfortable setting, guys just talking about life. And and you've done this, you know, with Ryan. So you're you're leaving a legacy that I'm just taking, taking the baton and just keep running the race for you. Uh, you started this, and all I'm doing is just continuing it for you. So if it wasn't for you and Ryan, there would not be a John. So we appreciate you and we appreciate and respect the fact that you know when you need to reorganize, and that's totally okay. And we're here for it. Appreciate that. Thank you so much. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

All right. Well, now that Ernie's gone, uh let's just kidding, man. I tell you. But uh yeah, so like like they said, next week, uh Ernie will be taking a a step back. John will be stepping in as as co-host, uh regular co-host serving uh forward. Ernie will try to join us as as able. Um, but next week will be the the first episode with with John and I taking the the helm and hopefully we'll carry over the the same chemistry and and and fun and conversation that Ernie and I have brought to this point. But until next week, leading ain't easy. Don't have to do it alone. Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Refraimerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bust Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.