Fix Your Face

Most leaders know they're supposed to stay composed. Very few talk honestly about how hard that actually is, or what it costs when you don't.

Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley get into the part nobody puts in a leadership manual: the moment your face says everything your brain didn't mean to share. They're both people who wear their emotions visibly, and this conversation is the kind you'd have if you actually had colleagues willing to be honest about it.

• Erny breaks down his most recent stumble with this — a confrontational meeting where someone put their hand on his leg and whispered "relax" because his whole body had already given him away
• Ryan shares the "fix your face" mantra that a coworker gave him early in his career, and how he still reaches for it in high-stakes meetings today
• They walk through what it felt like to lose composure at a public board meeting, on camera, with the superintendent watching, and what the fallout actually looked like afterward
• The difference between emotional authenticity (an asset) and unfiltered reaction (a liability), and why conflating the two can quietly stall a career
• Practical resets: physical anchors, preparation tactics, and how choosing the right place to vent can reduce the pressure that builds up before the moment you need to hold it together

This isn't about becoming someone you're not. It's about leading with intention when your instincts want to take over.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

John and I are on uh vacation this week, so Leading Ain't Easy is taking a break. But we wanted to share one of our favorite episodes recorded before. It's one that's very personal to me. It's called Fix Your Face. For those of you that haven't heard it, please listen and enjoy. For those of you that have, enjoy again. Thank you and see you next week. Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Rides, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, Ernie Epley, founder of Bus Pro Network, as we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. Well, at least I'm having a blast doing it. I can't speak for Ernie.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I was just about to say it's a miracle we got to six with all of our schedules and trying to align this. It's uh it's a logistical nightmare at times.

Ryan Calkins 1:33

Today's focus is uh we're focusing on fix your face, where you know that that one person whose face just kind of says everything that they're thinking, like like me and sometimes uh some Ernie. So this Ernie, not a Ernie. Uh but today's episode it's really for the the the leaders that have trouble hiding it. It's the the ones that wear their emotion on their sleeve, which directly uh uh affects their face and broadcast everything that they're thinking. And the thing for us that that we were kind of talking about to form the episode was just how we can struggle sometimes with the the that visible emotion where it's good because it it you know it it shows that you're genuine and it allows you to form bonds with people sooner and helps with relationship building because you are you know who who you present and and people respect that more than trying to figure out somebody that always seems to be hiding who they are. But that can also at times undermine your credibility and and your influence when you are trying to do things that are important if it's kind of left unchecked. So today we wanted to focus on that idea of fix your face and talk about our kind of own struggles with projecting our emotions without saying a word.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Man, I'm I'm so glad we're talking about this. It I think this is a timely topic. It's so relevant. Uh, and then of course I'm I'm speaking from uh from where I'm coming from. I uh just a little background for those of you who don't know me. I am uh an incredibly emotional person. I wear my heart on my sleeve, um uh just as a person. Now, this is and if I'm looking inside and giving myself a uh an objective critique as as possible as that can be sometimes, or how as challenging as that is, right? Because we don't we don't like always like what we see staring back at us when we look in the proverbial mirror. But if I'm being honest, this is the my biggest challenge to date. Um, and and I'm saying that 11, 12 years into this, I I don't know. I'm not even I lost count, but I'm this far into this whole leadership thing. And it's something that again, full disclosure, like man, it's so tough for me to do. I've always made the joke, but it's it's it's a true joke. Uh I am the world's worst poker player. I I will not play poker because if I get a good hand, I'm like, huh. You know, just that face. I can't hide it, man. And the same is true on the other side of the coin. If someone pisses me off or says something that like that I I find so absurd, I you know, I give and and you just can't do that in some situations, man. So uh very timely topic for myself. I have an example. When we get to examples, I have one from about two weeks ago um that I can give for for this uh topic. Um, but I guess we'll start. How did this come up, Ryan? What what uh what drove us to make this as the topic for episode six?

Ryan Calkins 4:59

Well, I was just I I had a client recently that was dealing with her emotions and and receiving feedback that it just the the nature of the conversations and the way that they turned were becoming problematic for her. And it reminded me of the conversation that you and I had a couple weeks ago about your incident. And then I started thinking about man, I've struggled with this my entire life. Like when I was in boot camp, the the Marine Corps you know refers to it as your bearing. You're it's essentially your composure at all times, and you're expected to maintain, you know, the this straight face, no smiles, no whatever. And I was always getting into trouble in boot camp for my lack of composure. Oh yeah. I dude, everything was funny to me because the the drill instructors were like so over the top at times that like I remember so there was this guy, this guy Taylor, right? And he never ironed his uniform, like his camis. And it got to the point to where the drill instructors walking down, he's like, you know, if you if I wake up tomorrow and your shit is wrinkly, like basically he's screwed, right? Sure enough, dude doesn't doesn't polish his boots, doesn't iron his uniform like we're all expected to do. Next morning, like we're standing there, we're we're all in in line at the position of attention, you know, we're standing there straight up, just watching, right? Drill instructor comes walking down the aisle, stops right in front of Taylor, looks at him, grabs his blouse, and just rips it, right? And the sound of the buttons hitting the floor. I lost it. Oh yeah. So not only is Taylor up there getting physically worked, um, I I was joining him, and it was it was basically we had to take a towel, like a washcloth, and fold it up into a little square, hold it with our fingers, and run this, run the run the towel all the way across the the barracks, all the way back, like back and forth until we like needless to say, you would think that that would make me learn my lesson, but I've never been able to maintain that composure. But the idea of of fix your face specifically came about when I was working. Uh I had a coworker who tried to coach me on, because she's a couple of years older than me, but um wise beyond her years. But, you know, she would let me know, like, hey, your face is gonna get you in trouble, it's gonna hold you back, you know, da-da-da-da-da. And there were times in meetings where it's like, you know, you hear directives or people's suggestions, and you're like, this is such a waste of time. Like, why are we doing this? Except I wasn't the kind of person that would sit there and be like, yeah, that sounds great, you know, and then come back, you know, with a with a a calculated uh uh response to where I could articulate what was wrong with it. Like I would just sit there like with it completely expressed on my face that that I was completely against it, or I would get defensive if you know there was undeserved critique and feedback. Um like I've always been a person that can that can take critical feedback. It's all in how it's delivered. Like when it comes to you like an attack, obviously you get defensive. Some people are better at masking it that than others, but I wasn't one of those people. And up until that point in early in my career, um, you know, she used to coach me on it and telling me that it will potentially hold you back in your career. So whenever she would sit next to me and we would talk about stuff, she'd lean in, she'd be like, fix your face. Or she was sitting front across from me, she would mouth it, you know. So it's like I always had this fix your face. And I was so grateful to have her because as my career, you know, continued to advance, and I would get into these situations where I could feel it. Like I could feel that my face was showing all of my cards, you know, or I'd have my arms crossed, or I'd be sitting like not aggressively, but I guess defensively, and I would think like, fix your face, fix your face. And as I'm thinking about it, like I would correct and try to prepare a response or or whatever it was that I disagreed with and focus on delivering the message to make it clear what the the issues were rather than undermining any value I potentially brought to the table by expressing my my distaste or or whatever it was in in that moment, and then making it more of a combatitive uh you know interaction when it didn't need to be.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

All right. So in that, in these moments where your colleague was leaning over, hey, fix your face, fix your face. Do you did she ever tell you what ask you or like, hey, what, or did she ever tell you like what your tell or your tell is? Do you are you aware of what your tell is?

Ryan Calkins 10:07

Well, dude, I I mean it's it's it's my face. Absolutely. Like I I already have like a resty bitch face, right? So it's like that, but more aggressive. Like I would just, I don't know, like, or or it wasn't even always like an angry thing. It was just more like, you know, like wow, are we really talking about how stupid this idea is? You know, it was just very expressive in in every way that I don't know, like it was just a thing that I always thought to myself would be more beneficial is is being real and not trying to mask what you're thinking, you know. But there are times and and places for, and that's not to say, you know, to to fake who you are or anything else. It's just a matter of keeping that that composure in order to rebut. Like I would never tell anybody, you know, don't don't disagree. You know, I want people to disagree. I want you to speak out if you have a problem with it. Right. But don't do it in a way that kills any credibility you have before you even get a chance to to provide it.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

So that's it's funny you you touched on the exact uh thing with my most recent lesson with this. Um uh two things I want to cover. One was a meeting I had today with my boss about and and what came up during that meeting was the reason uh I was sort of just just uh you know, having a conversation with him. Uh he's he's actually where he's super tight, very uh he's probably one of the best bosses I've ever had, if I'm being honest. And I'm not just saying that because he listens to the show. He does a matter of fact, he doesn't even I don't even think he's aware the show exists. But um uh he he's I'm I'm learning a lot from him even now. Um so we were we were talking about a situation and he's like you know, giving me basic but very good advice, a good reminder, you know, hey, in this situation, if you react defensively, they've already won. Like just you know, coaching me through some of the some of the uh what we're going through. And uh I was like, man, where I come from, you I think it was uh both a a genetic thing because my my mom's the same way. Um and and a lot of folks on my mom's side are the same way. Like, you know, we me and Melissa always joke, like we couldn't sigh around our mom because we'd be like, What what do you what did you say you're talking back? And we're like, I just sighed, you know? And so growing up in that, and then also being from environments where you couldn't, you had to react, otherwise it was seen as weakness. Like if you had somebody, you know, shoulder check you or or give you a certain look or something, you had to be like, What? What do you you know what I mean? Or else you were punk and you didn't want to be a punk, right? Um, not that I just grew up in a in a super bad ghetto. Well, it's kind of ghetto, but I'm I'm getting lost in the detail. What I wanted to to to convey to my boss, and what I want to convey here is a lot of this stuff, a lot of us are this stuff that goes far, far back. So of of who we are as individuals. So it's it's trying to peel all those layers back and start from a foundation of look, this is this has served me well up to to get here, right? Now I gotta peel that back because it's not gonna serve me well moving forward. And the the sex sort of second piece of that was uh the situation that that um you and I spoke about during our session, and which, by the way, I'm gonna take a quick time out here to plug reframe rise.com, my boy Ryan. Um you're it's on your face again. What you're you're telling. Fix your face. Enjoy this plug. I'm a client and it's it's uh it's very effective. I'll say that. I won't go on and on about that, but I appreciate you, bud. I'm just happy you you got the website right. Dude, I'm uh I'm I'm happy too. Like that's a win. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna tell my grandkids about this one day. Uh I don't even have kids. Uh sorry, I'm I'm up for the rails. But um, no, what we talked about was a situation where uh it was I I uh I don't want to get into specifics, but in a moment my character was my my character was attacked. My um not not necessarily my morality, but definitely my character on a personal level and on a professional level was called into question. And here it goes again. That that that Ernie that was, you know, grew up in the household where we couldn't sigh and grew up where if you got a crooked look, you had to check a motherfucker. You know what I mean? Like you had like, you know, so that came out and my who, like just my whole body, wasn't just my face, my whole body, like I leaned forward, my body, and I had uh someone next to me who was who is very much aware of me, knows me very well. She puts her hand on my leg and she's like, relax, relax. Because she already knew, like, you know, and I'm glad that was there. Um, and even doing that, the other, the other side picked up on it. And in that moment, I lost. I I fucking lost, man, because just just by going and doing that, and and that's all it took. And so to to the point of today's topic is fix that, peel that, you know, peel that back. Understand that most of the time, and certainly in the situation I was in, when you're in a position of leadership, they're looking for that. They're looking for the very first thing. And I'm talking about an adversarial uh situation, and sometimes in a negotiation situation, or even even in situations where you may be dealing with vendors, I'm just trying to throw this all out there so it's not just a confrontational scenario we're talking about where fixing your face could be beneficial to you. Um can't tip your cards, right? And the thing that we always I feel like I'm I'm gonna beat this horse to death until the day we quit this podcast is balance. How do we balance out the the want and the need to say, hey, you're not talking to a robot, so I am gonna be a little bit animated, right? You're not talking to Siri or or ChatGPT, you're talking to Ernie, so I am gonna be animated, but then again, I gotta not over-animate myself and not tip my hand or um give you the uh satisfaction to know that you struck a nerve, right? Or whatever the scenario might be.

Ryan Calkins 16:39

No, I'm glad you mentioned kind of the the character piece of it, because I didn't mean to imply before that it's like anything you disagree with, you go off the rails. It's more like you said, it's it's a disagreement with your character or your values or things that you just vehemently are against. And that's the time where you really show it on your face. And it's kind of one of those double-edged sword pieces, as we mentioned before, of of kind of emotional transparency is that it is a an amazing asset in terms of of relationship building and and you know, building trust and honesty and in in that regard, but it can also, like we said, I mean, there's times in in meetings where you're you know, you've already lost both before you've you've said uh a single word. And I don't know. I I still struggle with it at at times, you know. It it's yeah. It's a it's a it's a tough thing because especially, you know, like like mentioning uh your your character, it's just when you live a a way to try and do everything right and do right by everybody else, um, you know, it's just you can give so much of yourself that when it is called into question, it's like, well, the hell are you talking about? Like I'm doing all of this for for everybody else. Or when your your leadership and and management and everything else is called into questions on on things or or the choices that you make. And it's like, well, I made that choice because I'm doing it, you know, for for these people. Like I'll be damned if if you know that's fine, I'll fall on the sword, whatever. I don't care. Um but yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

No, thank you. Uh it's it's I did you what you said kind of interrupt or not interrupted, but but spring to interrupt. But yeah. I did. Um, uh what I wanted to remind folks is something that I have to go into every meeting knowing. Um, and not every meeting, I just it on your day-to-day, especially if it's a conversation, a conversation is so much more than words, right? In in this conversation you and I are having right now, the words we're choosing to communicate are only 40%, 50%, whatever. I don't even say 50%, I'd probably say 30. I don't want to do get involved in math, but uh, because math is hard for me. I don't have a calculator up. Uh no, but it's it's it's a small percentage of what goes into the conversation, you know, body language goes into it, objective facts that I may or may not be aware of. So going into something, again, especially if if there's a lot of uh if that's a a conversation that's gonna, the outcome is gonna be disciplinary, or if it's gonna involve a lot of funds being dedicated to a certain topic or something, um, whatever it is, you need to go into there knowing that the the whole of this conversation or the whole of this interaction, that words are only gonna go so far, the rest of your more uh effective communication tactic is gonna be with your body language, with your face, with the objective facts that are there, and doing your best to get gather any facts that you're not aware of. Um, so I just wanted to kind of add that caveat to you know, to this topic in that area.

Ryan Calkins 20:08

No, while you were talking about that, I uh it reminded me of a a workshop that I attended that was facilitated by by a mentor of mine. And it was it was fascinating because we're we're in there with a group of of uh up-and-coming professionals um, you know, with within an organization, and they were selected for this kind of leadership tract. And there was one project manager that was within the group that that worked there, and he was very vocal, outgoing, and you know, the kind of person that is eager and and quick to volunteer. So she asked for volunteer. This guy shoots his hand up. She's like, Okay, come up, you know, for the next minute, I don't want you to communicate anything. Like, I don't want you to say a word, I don't want you to to to communicate, period. Do you think you can do it? He's like, Yeah, I can do it, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he's standing up there, like 15 seconds goes by, and he like starts looking around and moving his face, and he's like kind of like moving his arms. And she goes, you know, at the end of a minute, it's like, do you do you think that you were effective in not communicating? He's like, No, I think everybody could tell that I was nervous and blah, blah, blah. She goes, Do you need another minute? You know, you want to try it again? He's like, I don't need to try it again. Like, you know, and everybody got the point, but it's it's like impossible to not communicate because your movement is communication, your face is communication, your your hand gestures, everything that you do is communicating something. And it was just, I mean, like you, you know it because you've you you know you've learned it and you've been taught and everything else, but seeing it in practice and that exercise, I don't know. It was just it was a really cool thing to to kind of see it play out. Um, I don't know. Yeah. I it's just another thing that I kind of added to the the whole concept of of a fix your face is yes, you're fixing your face, but you also need to be aware of every other way that you're communicating. That's also nonverbable, nonverbally, but it's also you can start to catch yourself in your tone. So if you have everything else under check, you also need to make sure that the tone in your delivery isn't, you know, uh aggressive or defensive because you could have your poker face on and then you're and then you're talking, and it's like, okay, well, this shit's not meshing because this guy's got a smile, but he's clearly pissed off, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Oh man. So let's talk about some tools we could add to our the old toolbox. Uh, how do we maintain bearing when you disagree? What are some of the uh the tactics that you've employed in in in relation to this topic?

Ryan Calkins 22:42

Well, for me, it it's having the the knowledge and the experience with the the fix your face from my coworker. Like that is immediately my main tool is thinking about it. And it's not just in the moment when it's happening, but if I go into a meeting to where I know it could be a touchy, you know, anytime there's like a uh professional um performance related discussion, whether it's me delivering the message or receiving the message, I go into it with fix your face, fix your face. Like this isn't, it doesn't need to become a defensive battle or anything else, because again, you can lose. You can lose as a a leader and supervisor having the conversation, but you can also lose as a leader, you know, working your way up. Like I have been in situations previously where I haven't received a promotion because I'm too open, or I'm the person where it's like, oh, I know you've got something to say because it's on my face, you know? So I'm like, yeah, I do, you know, and I'll provide my insight and and opinions on things. Um, again, it it's it's one of those things where it can be a great asset, but unchecked, it can be a huge hindrance. So my biggest tool and something that I hope people are able to take away is that concept of fix your face. And when you feel yourself start to get defensive, or I mean, you can feel it when your body's changing, you know? And start thinking right then fix your face, fix your face, and try to correct and relax your shoulders and uncross your arms and you know, sit up or or back, depending on on how your body is uh situated. But hopefully people just take away the concept of fix your face.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

For me, what has what I've found success in in these moments is when when these when the face wants to do what it says or my reaction, right? Do a quick readjustment, like you said, right? And in that moment, right, in the in the two or three seconds that it's taking you to clear your throat, readjust yourself or whatever, but remember why you're there. Keep your eye on the price, stay focused on the objective of why we are meeting today. And that goes whether it's if you're if you're feeling like you or when you disagree with somebody, or if you feel frustrated, or if you feel like you're getting blindsided. Like I can't tell you the amount of times I've been blindsided in meetings. Um, and it's getting to just do a soft reset of something physical, whether again taking a drink like you just did, or you know, clear your throat, something, but in that moment, reset your composure, not only on your face, but in your head, thinking, like, okay, why are we here? What's the objective? Are we getting off track? And even if you have to say that out loud, you can say, hey, I I appreciate the feedback, but I feel it's taking us off track on what our course is today. Our course is to help you show up on time, right? That's the the example I'm going to use every time in this in this show. But the the the extent is to get you here on time so that you could provide service or to our customers or you know, fill in the blank. Um, just just go back to the basics, strip it back, and then after that reset, I've found that once we've gotten back on track, it's my face just falls into and my whole body language falls into like, okay, this is why we're here. Um, we're here for X, get it done, uh, appreciate the time, you know, all that good stuff.

Ryan Calkins 26:18

Has losing your composure ever kind of had a negative effect for you? Uh I know the the thing two weeks ago, you felt like you lost, but you didn't really lose everything. You know, it was like that that battle. But have you ever had a situation where it basically ruined whatever opportunity you you were you were pursuing or or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Uh I not an opportunity, but definitely a um uh uh what am I trying to say here? Like faith and uh from my superiors. Okay, so let me tell you the story. And and we this was man, I had this was my very first board meeting when I became a director. So for those of you who don't know, and this is public information, you could look it up on the internet right now, and there's a video of me losing my shit and and losing faith, and having uh they don't show it on the video, but in my eyes, like you could see the reflection that I'm looking up at the board of education and the superintendent, and slowly they're just like this motherfucker's out, you know what I mean? Like, so I'll give you an example. Um uh uh so we're we're at a a board meeting. So for those of you who aren't familiar with the California school system, uh our org chart is that the superintendent is over the day-to-day um activities and the logistics of a of a massive district like this, where there's 32,000 kids, uh, you know, 4,000 employees, and uh over everything is the board of education. And then I answer to uh someone who's just under the superintendent that's in my current role. Um so there's a uh uh a board agenda item up that I'm being called upon as the subject matter expert. Uh, and it's it has to do with what's called known as an RFP, a request for proposal or a bid. For those of you in the construction business or or government business, like you know that whenever a government entity requires services, there has to be a document put out saying, hey, this is the services we need, and companies have a chance to respond with their proposal. I say that to lay the groundwork. Um, they had a question on why we're awarding the bid to this person from company A versus company B, whenever company B is offering us uh uh a bigger break. And what the backstory is is that a colleague of mine, when they went to uh type up the board uh agenda doc, they had a typo and they they recommended the wrong vendor, right, to the board of education. And nobody caught it because it was after my approval process went through. I didn't approve the actual write-up. I just approved uh the vendor we were going with, and it was a verbal, there was nothing in writing. So when it got to the clerical piece of it, that person forgot who I said and just was like, oh, well, I'm gonna look on this, right? Anyway, uh, without getting too into the weeds on it, she made a mistake. And I'm there in front of the entire my boss's boss's bosses, right? And in front of uh the community I'm part of now. They're very active. At any one point, we could have a couple hundred people on stream that's uh they they publicly broadcast on our local PBS channel, our board meetings. So it's a very public uh place. And and they're take sort of taking me to task on like, why are why is this company being uh recommended when this company gives us the better price? And so I'm trying to say, without say, without throwing my colleague under the bus, that was a mistake, right? But in that in that moment, I dude, I got so flustered. I'm moving all over the place. Um well, you know, yeah, I know what you're saying, and I'm doing the trick to clear my but I dude, there was nothing I can do. Um thank God that that the person just to my right who was who was on cabinet at the time, just was like, hey, how about we just put forth a resolution to go with the best price, and then we don't have to name the company, right? Just kind of gave a solution and saved me. But that I was like, dude, where the hell were you two minutes ago? I've been up here for two minutes, and two minutes is an eternity if you're just stuck in that moment. So uh I could have, again, there's many lessons to be learned from that. However, as soon as I saw the was up there asking, uh answering the questions. As soon as I saw that, what I learned later learned was the superintendent came to me and was like, we saw your face when you read that. And your face was of panic. Like, just look like you were about to get hit going head on with an 18-wheeler, and you're just like, oh no. And they knew everybody that looked at this agenda item knew what you were oh knowing about. And it's your job to explain this. That's why the the board member asked you what he did. I mean, this is their it's their job. Like, I'm not blaming them at all. They're doing what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to follow up on fuck-ups like this. You know, we have to explain that. So uh uh again, I think it would have I would have started from a much better place had I been more composed now. I mean, I feel like I'm a little more seasoned now. I would look at that and I would probably still make a face, but it wouldn't be like, ah, dear in a headlights face. It would be like, okay, well, they're gonna ask about this and I'm gonna be ready for it. My answer now would be look, it appears to be a clerical error. Can we agree to use the best price? Right. And I mean just just what my the the the my boss did at the time there. Um, but that that all comes with experience. So I lost a lot of, I don't know if it's credibility, but there was a lot of follow-up to that. Uh the the fallout from that was that anything I brought to the board was under a microscope. You know, and it wasn't even necessarily my fault. Uh you shouldn't.

Ryan Calkins 32:04

Sorry, long story. So, with that, had you just owned it as the the clerical clerical error and corrected it then, I I'm I mean, obviously this is something we can totally take offline, but isn't there a danger in setting a precedent of now going with the lowest by default when you could have future bidders that come in and they underbid and now you're stuck with a a less qualified and shittier quality product and service because you set the wheels in motion to just default to the lowest bid.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yes, and no, that that's uh that opens up a little bit more of an operational thing, but in this case, it was diesel delivery and gas delivery to our uh our facility there. We have on-site underground storage tanks, and so it's the same diesel no matter what. Uh, they're getting it from the same refineries. And the the the error came because uh again, everyone's gonna learn something new today. When our our bid is their they their bid is just like 11 cents off market price. So whatever if if a gallon of diesel is a gal uh a dollar, then they're gonna sell it to us at at uh 89 cents. And that's excuse me what they said. So it looked like the lower number, which was I think the lower number was eight cents, and they're like, oh, eight's eight is cheaper than 11, let's go with that. When in reality, minus they forgot the little the little negative sign there that no 11 cents in this cheap this case is better. And it it's a significant cost when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel a month. So yeah. So that's that's in that case, that that saved me. But uh yeah.

Ryan Calkins 33:46

No, thanks for the that clarification. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. So whenever you're ready to be director of transportation, you could uh you could have that the that in the tool belt. Oh, I'm ready. Step aside. Probably do a better job than me.

Ryan Calkins 34:01

So with all with all the things that that we've been talking about, kind of the experiences that we've had in terms of still, you know, today, um, as as recent as two weeks ago, struggling with being able to, you know, maintain your composure and balance your your kind of authenticity with that transparency and trying to make everything work to where you're not so reactive and and defensive. Um what kind of uh I I guess lessons or piece of advice would you give somebody that that's listening on how to proactively mitigate kind of that that concept of of fix your face?

SPEAKER_00 34:44

First off, I would I would advise people, and this is a good piece of advice for myself too, if I could follow it, is give yourself some grace. You are still human, you still want to appear human. So so there's that. Um but you could also do yourself a lot of favors to do your best to be proactively ready for an attack, for getting blindsided by pieces of information that you're you weren't privy to before. So uh as is the case with most most things, practice is gonna make perfect. Getting prepared ahead of time is going to uh going to set you up for success. And part of that preparation isn't just what you're bringing to the table. Part of that preparation is okay, I gotta be able to expect the unexpected here and know that something is going to come out of the woodworks, right? Especially if it's a a confrontational uh meeting or if it's if there's a lot of money involved, right? There's there's going to be something that's gonna pop its head up. And I got to know that's coming and mentally prepare myself for that. So in the moment, you're already like, okay, knew this was coming. And your face could be one of, I saw that coming, I have an answer for you, versus oh, oh, oh, you know, the panic, or one of, well, fuck you, that wasn't my, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like I've cursed on this episode a lot, and I apologize for that. You cursed on every episode. I do. Now I gotta go back and really listen, not just tell you I listened and not do it.

Ryan Calkins 36:18

So to add on to to what you said, I I think that that self-awareness is a huge component of being able to work on fixing yourself and fixing your face, I mean. Because you you you can't manage what what you don't notice. So like being aware that you are that person that is very expressive in the moment, but also not being uh immediately reactive and and you know, spouting off. It's give yourself a couple of seconds to kind of reflect on what just happened. So while you're focusing on fixing your your face and and making sure that that what you're presenting is not showing your cards, you know, all on the table at once. And in that silence, it gives you a moment to kind of regain your composure so you can articulate what what what your your uh you know your your challenge is versus that immediate rebuttal, like you said, you know, the birds and all.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

One of the uh what I I just saw something in our run of show notes that I really want that that really come up kind of jumped off the page at me, um, is choosing where to vent. It's healthy to vent, right? Um, and and one choice you could proactively make is is subscribing to Reframe and Rise and hooking up with with my buddy Ryan. Uh secondly, I'm I thought I threw that in as kind of a serious joke. Uh secondly, is building a team around you that you sorry, my my chair almost broke. Couldn't imagine why. It snapped. Sorry. Sorry. Uh choosing where to vent, right? Building your team, putting, putting the right pieces in place to people that you can go into and you know, go in their their office, close the door behind you. Well, you wouldn't believe what I just, you know. That's healthy. Uh not only for for people in in your normal life, it's a healthy professional thing too. So that way you're not a ticking time bomb, just carrying everything and internalizing everything. So being smart about where you're going to vent to, knowing the the situations where you can let your face just go and do it, you know, let you let let that go. Because that that is a healthy outlet to have as leaders. And I would imagine that if if we took a you know show of hands in a group of leaders, how many people have somebody like that in their office? Whether it's maybe maybe not in their office, but maybe it's the office over in another department or whatever the case is. We all need that something and somebody to be able to bounce these things off of who knows that your frustration in that moment isn't directed at them, it's directed at the situation and they can support you, whether it's support of, okay, I'm hearing you, here's where you're wrong and you need to fix, or support of, yeah, that sucks, nothing else to do, or just to sit there and listen, right? And and I certainly have those people in in my place of employment who I offer that to, right? And this isn't necessarily part of the discussion, but uh being able to listen and diagnose of, oh, do I need to support, provide feedback, or I do I just need to get out of the way and let them go, right? Um, so so choosing where to vent is going to be uh pretty pretty healthy. It's it's it's okay to do that, it's okay to feel human. Um so yeah, that's one of the takeaways I wanted to add.

Ryan Calkins 39:37

Yeah, no, I I I agree. Uh having that that place to vent, it's also who who you vent in in front of, you know, when your team is around you and you're reacting that way, especially if it's you know to a superior or something else, then it you know challenges their view on things and kind of that composure is contagious. It's like, well, if Ernie's gonna blow up, I'm gonna blow up, or you know, whatever. They can either lose respect for you, they lose respect for your boss. It shows that management isn't aligned. It's just a lot of elements that also go into to what you do as a manager and leader, because as a leader, by default, there are people that that look to you for strength and and wisdom and and support and all of these things. And when you don't have you know control of your own composure, it can it can undermine you in in those situations as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Of course, you you gotta set the tone. As leaders, you have to be the one to say, hey, this is this is what today is, this is what we're doing here, and and yeah, very important to set the tone. Another thing I wanted to that kind of jumped out on me is authentic authenticity isn't necessarily doesn't equal transparency. And and I like this that uh the the notes you don't have to owe everyone your unfiltered reaction. What is your sort of take on that? And can you expound upon that a little bit more, Ryan?

Ryan Calkins 41:08

I I kind of alluded to it earlier, but it's that concept where I used to have a mindset that my kind of unfiltered reaction was favorable because I wasn't this fake person, and everybody could trust in who I am is is who I am, you know? And but also there's that that learning of of the of the cost of being completely authentic or over-sharing, which may be a another subject I tackle in a in a future episode, because I am an open book, both in what I share with people, but also that that expressive, just reactionary, just who I am. And it it I mentioned it before, but it it's always been a struggle and and an area of focus for me. I have gotten better, you know, which obviously comes with with experience and and and maturity, which I'm still working on on the maturity piece too. But uh yeah, it's just I I think having a filtered reaction in you know, those scenarios that that we talked about where it's more advantageous to wait and and make sure that you're calm and articulate what your desire or or need is in that moment. Because once you've lost somebody, it's really hard to climb back in. Like if you lose a promotion because people view you as a loose canon or that you aren't professionally mature, it's it sets you back, you know, and now you have to not just show that you can do the job, but now you have to prove that you can overcome this challenge in perception. And if that takes, you know, years now, because you could have 10 years of goodwill built up, and then you have one major fuck up. That's what people focus on is oh, that one time that the Lornie Er Ernie lost his composure. And oh, you know, now this guy is nuts. Let's not think about all of the good he did this year. It's that one incident that made you look like, you know, a complete unprofessional that comes into question. And is it fair? No. But it happens. I mean, it's it's real. And the last thing that you want to do is is undermine your your you know, professional uh uh trajectory, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yeah. So sort of in summary, I did want to to mention this as well. We've talked about on this show being true to yourself, being authentic, and and Things of that nature. I want to be make it abundantly clear. It's not about hiding who you are. It's not about squelching your personality. It's about leading with intention. And that's something that that that phrase leading with intention is something that I, again, being doing the self-reflection and doing the self-assessment here. I need to that needs to become to the forefront as well for for me and in my day-to-day, whenever I'm going through and making decisions that are impactful, not only to me, but the for the the staff that that uh that I work with to our customer base, like I need to lead with intention. And what is that attention? Well, it's pretty easy for me. I preach it every single day, a student safety and student service, right? From my particular industry, but you know, you fill in the blank with what you got. So even when your reaction and even when it's in your genetics to do this, remember like it leading with intent even when your face wants to go first is is something that I'm definitely gonna add to the toolbox moving forward. Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 45:02

No, I mean we we've we've all been there that that moment where your expression really says that you know what what your brain didn't mean to to to share. Yeah, you know, and luckily I had Amy, my my person that that had the my the the the fix your face mantra that has has stuck with me. Um and I guess hopefully everybody else has that person or something that they can rely on in the moment for aid. And we would really love to know kind of what helps others stay grounded in those moments. You know, if if you can share tips or stories of your of your own kind of experiences and growth, it's something that we would love to continue learning, you know, from our ourselves as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Absolutely, man. I I do want to say like any and all feedback is welcome. I know we end almost every show with this, um, but it's important. I I I I do want to hear from our folks um and and see if we're hitting you know the target or if we need to adjust, man. We no one's above uh certainly not as podcasters. We're not above crashing and and tips and tricks and all that good stuff.

Ryan Calkins 46:10

Yeah. No, so I until next time when when we when we're back next week, we'll close with a leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Dude, I'm so good at this now. I'm I'm never gonna forget that freaking line again. You're amazing. You are.

Ryan Calkins 46:29

Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's reframere.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.