The Leadership Hangover: Living With the Decisions You Had to Make

Every leadership resource tells you how to make the hard call. Nobody tells you what happens after. Ryan Calkins and John Moore talk through the emotional and psychological fallout of difficult leadership decisions (terminations, layoffs, denied promotions, etc.) and what it actually looks like to carry that weight while still showing up for your team.

Most leadership content stops at the decision. This episode starts there.

Ryan and John get into the part that doesn't make it into the books: the aftermath of hard calls. What it feels like the day after a termination. How to face the person you just denied a promotion. What the team members left behind are going through that leaders often miss. And why nobody in leadership training ever prepared either of them for any of it.

What comes up in the conversation:

• The difference between making a hard decision and living with one, and why the emotional weight doesn't care whether the call was right
• What actually happens to a team after a layoff, beyond the logistics of redistributed workload
• The tension between confidence and callousness, and why the leaders who seem unaffected aren't handling it better, they're just further from their own humanity
• Why the compliment sandwich and the scripted delivery exist, when they work, and when they make everything worse
• The shift from ruminating on what you could have done differently to actually learning from it and carrying it forward
• Why mental health support, mentors, and honest self-reflection aren't soft add-ons for leaders, they're operational necessities

This is a practitioner conversation, not a framework. Two people who've been in these rooms talking honestly about what it cost them, and more importantly, what it taught them.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. Today we wanted to talk about the idea of the leadership hangover and living with the decisions that you had to make. And really, John and I were kind of talking about leadership and things that we've covered and how books cover what it means to be a decisive leader and making tough decisions and having tough conversations. But we were talking about how there's not really conversations on the fallout of what happens after you make those decisions because you know you're dealing with humans.

John Moore 1:20

And no one really tells you, you know, those kind of outcomes, those feelings, those whatever you want to call them, after you may have to make those decisions. It's easy for a manager to say, um, let go um 60 people or 50 people, but not think about what's that afterwards? What does that feel like? What are the, what's the, what's the the leftover remnants of not having 60 people? Where's that workload going? How do I manage that workload? All of those components as well, right?

Ryan Calkins 1:48

Yeah, well, I I don't know. I I think, I mean, I guess I don't know because I haven't been in a position where I was responsible for mass layoffs or or mass terminations. But I imagine it is easier for somebody to make that decision because they aren't necessarily the one that is conducting it or they don't have the relationship with those people and they're looking at a number and saying, Oh, well, there's a hundred people, but we'll be in the black or or whatever, you know? And I don't know, it's there's just something personal about having to terminate somebody even when it is the right thing to do, because you can always find something in somebody that is like, oh man, I missed the jokes they told, or whatever the case may be. But there's always some positive. Well, I guess there was one person that I never really found any redeeming qualities in, but I wasn't in a position to get rid of her.

John Moore 2:46

So But at the same time, even what you're saying about thinking of the positive, it's just me. I think I I always go back on the fact that to your beginning point, it's not a good feeling that you have to lay people off. I've, you know, had unfortunately we have delayed off hundreds of people, and it's not a good feeling, right? Uh, you're told by your executive leadership and your CEO, you're in a conference room and they're telling you, not by people, they're giving you a number. We need to get rid of $1.00 million. And it's in there, and we're sitting there thinking, uh, me as a lay person coming in thinking, like, so 1.6, so what's 1.6? And it's like, that's staff. You got to let go that that's salaries we got to decrease by $1.6 million. So that could be a hundred people in a small company, that could be an impact, right? So again, I think about the aftermath of it. What are you going to do with six people off of your team when you were only a team of 15? Right? So now you got to double up, right? Now you got to people is gonna, you know, people are gonna have to do all these multiple jobs that they didn't want to do from the get-go. So it's it's easy, like you said, if you don't have the relationship, if you don't see the impacts, if you didn't see how that person really brought value to your team, now they're gone. And it's like, damn, we, you know, we kind of miss Cindy, you know, we miss her. But at the same time, you know, it that when you when you thought about this title, I I immediately went to that topic of, dang, one point something million we got to get rid of. And nobody was thinking about it's around Christmas or whatever holiday it was, and all of the back story behind it. It's just, it's interesting.

Ryan Calkins 4:21

Yeah, well, I guess I mean the crazy thing is because obviously, you know, you went to the big massive layoff, everybody is is gone in one foul swoop. And I was immediately thinking of, you know, people that I personally had to let go. And it's like the next day, it's the cubicle is empty or the office is empty. And it's like, shit, man, it's it's such a weird dynamic because that person had been here for years, and now it's just there, there's a void, even though it was the right decision for for the team or whatever it was that we needed to do, it still felt horrible. And every time that I've been in that position, like I've I've never, you know, thrown up, but sometimes it's been like a physical man, this moment sucks. Like it's hard to get through. No matter how much you prepare to go into it, it just it's gut-wrenching.

John Moore 5:13

But that's the and I honor that part because you have a lot of people that can do that and they have no emotions behind it. It's just like a robot, they're gone and they move on. And I honor the fact that there's an emotional response to it, and or physical response, or whatever it may be, because these are human beings. And we've been in those situations as well, and we know what it feels like. The shock of it. You're coming in, you're thinking everything is cool. You just bought a house, you just bought a car, um, you know, you just whatever, and then hear someone's telling you that we have to do mass layoffs. And just, you know, the first quarter you were the best person, da-da-da-da, and you just got a raise, and now you're being laid off. It's it's just the most uh horrific experiences, but it's one um that leadership must do. That's that's the pain of it all.

Ryan Calkins 6:00

You know, you just mentioned uh uh promotions that somebody didn't get and in the and the firing and whatever, but I mean, this topic it's even somebody that thought they were going to get a promotion and you're having the decision that you're not getting the promotion. And sometimes that's worse because now you're coming back every single day and you're facing that person that you just turned down, and you still have to work with them and try to encourage them and motivate them to continue despite the bad news or the expectation that they had that didn't happen.

John Moore 6:33

Well, one thing about that, and it's funny, a friend of mine just said the same thing, and I also think I've used this as well. Um, she was looking for a position to fill, and she's looking at different people, and she put it in as a consciousness to the employee, because you know, we know who we want to replace somebody with. And so she said to the person that she knew wouldn't be strong enough for the role, she said, Hey, so if this position doesn't work out for you, what other things would you like to get, you know, invested in? And I think just that, that's just that thoughtfulness, right? What it does is it plants a seed. And it not only says, okay, well, if I don't get this, at least she's looking at, you know, other things that I could be interested in. At least she's looking at I could, you know, do some other things. And this is not all, right? So it doesn't always just go to the point of saying, okay, you didn't get this, and I got to see you every day, and you're not gonna get it, at least, and which this person will, she could see opportunities for this person based on their skill set. But then you also have the scenario like you gave. It could be a scenario where it's like, no, they they're kind of the one of the worst. Nobody wants them to be of leadership, nobody really wants to see the movement or the growth because of their attitudes or the way that they may approach things, which is a default on us because we didn't correct it or we didn't manage them out like we should have. So, you know, it's kind of a catch-22, either way you go.

Ryan Calkins 7:52

I agree. And I think the so the the situation that you just talked about where she provided a potential avenue elsewhere, I think that really depends on the relationship and the trust that you have with that person, because that could very well be seen as I'm basically letting you know in advance that you're not getting this. And it's like, well, don't play with me. Like if you're not gonna give it to me, fine, but don't try to you know sit here and BS like you care about which direction I go. I mean, it could be taken. It it fully depends. Because I feel like I've been in situations where I've had leaders try that or managers try that, and I'm like, dude, you're full of like I know who you are, and I know you're full of shit, and there's no genuine care behind that at all.

John Moore 8:42

And you're right. But in this scenario, and you're right, because it go either way. You have some that they just do it as a blanketed statement because they know, because again, we know who we're going to put into these roles. And then sometimes it could be a true factor. With this particular one, there's a true factor. I'm trying to think, for me, when I did it, I'm trying to remember was there another role or opportunity, or was it because you and to your point, you gotta also think this way as well. Um, from an HR standpoint, you just can't say, well, you ain't gonna get the role. You gotta kind of play it because, and that was one of the things that I learned coming into management is like even if you know that you already have the person for this, you gotta make each person in the interview feel like they have an opportunity to get the role because now you're talking about litigation. Now you know, or or litigation or or liabilities or regulatories, whatever. You're now talking about or even discrimination, right? So you can't just be like, well, you're doing a good job, but we just doing the interview because we gotta do it. No, you you really have to do it for to show face. And you're right, you do know that some people are BSers, but at the same time, it's a part of the game that we unfortunately have to play.

Ryan Calkins 9:56

That's it's such a hard thing because it's like, I don't know. How are you familiar with the with the Rooney rule in the NFL? Well, because I'm not sure. So teams by this this Rooney rule have to interview one African-American coach when they're doing a coaching search.

John Moore 10:14

Okay, okay.

Ryan Calkins 10:14

And a lot of times it's like they've already picked the coach that they're going to have, and they have to go through the motion of having these interviews. And it just, I don't know. I mean, obviously, I've never gone through those interviews and I've never been a piece of it. Just from the outside looking in, it seems like such a waste of everybody's time. And I understand that there's a liability there, but I I don't, it just doesn't, it seems so disingenuous to me. And I I don't know.

John Moore 10:46

Well, look, that's kind of even where we're where where we are right now, even in the work, uh, looking for work now. You have multiple people who are going through to go interview. They know that they don't necessarily like what's on that resume, but they wanted to at least get enough pool of people to say, yes, we've interviewed multiple people, instead of just again choosing just the person that you, you know, you felt was the best fit for the job internally. Uh, so it goes a little bit both ways, but you have a valid point. I agree. It does feel disingenuous. Uh that's one way to look at it, but then on the other way, you gotta cover your butt because you gotta resource enough people to say, yeah, we look for the best candidate. We didn't just choose Ryan. We didn't just choose John. We went through all the candidates. And then when you're talking about this thing through the sports thing of Majig, it's probably not even uh the men very well not even doing that anymore. It's just probably choosing the one that they want now and just moving forward with it. Because I mean that especially in that world, you know, that's something that people dream to be is that coach, if you will. And then you go through all that and then nothing comes of it. It's crazy. That's crazy. But you know, I I think I I think you know, coming back to this uh topic too, which is really a great topic, that I really don't think, and I I'll even take responsibility for this too, that even when I was teaching leadership, I never really talked about the the emotional effects, the physical effects, the uh the effects of making decisions and what the decisions then and how they land on you afterwards. No one really ever talks about it, and nobody ever really gets you prepared for it. Yeah, no, it's true. Do you remember anyone ever, you know, saying, you know, you know, you're gonna have to do some hard stuff and one of the things you're gonna have to do, and you know, here's how we deal with it. I don't ever remember that.

Ryan Calkins 12:38

Hell no. I usually was on the receiving end of, well, I'm not gonna do it. You need to go fire them. I'm like, why do I have to do it? Man, I worked at I worked at this company where there were uh there were three owners and they were all guys. And anytime it came to termination, they would have the HR admin lady do the terminations and they would just like leave the office for the day or or you know, leave early.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

And I'm just like, man, really? Cowards.

John Moore 13:10

Yeah, but because it's not, you know, some men, you know, they they they they give that tough image, but they they just can't they can't deal with that. They can't deal if a person gets emotionally emotionally response to firing, can't deal with it. But they, you know, they reap the benefits of sock going up and all those things, but they don't want to deal with those types of things.

Ryan Calkins 13:29

Well, I mean, uh, even with I don't even know. I mean, I guess it's it's more uh uh visible with with the termination because you know now there's a void there. But also with the denial of promotion or or whatever hard conversation you just had, it's like you have your own internal stuff that that you're dealing with, but you also have all of the other staff in in the office or or the team or whatever that are now adjacent to what just occurred, and everybody knows. So you're trying to not only manage what you've done, and I don't even want to say safe face, because it's not like everything that you do is a bad decision, but sometimes it's it's it's not a popular decision. And a lot of it is trying to get people to understand that to the degree that you can, that decisions were made for reasons. This is the direction that we're going in. And, you know, I understand, you know, you may be bummed or or whatever it is, but we will we will push through.

John Moore 14:39

Well, and that I wish that that was the way someone would have said it to me. Uh, a manager had said after he uh let go or my manager resigned, we however they want to say it, uh, they came to me because I was his director under him, and he, the manager or the SVT or whatever his role was at the time, um, basically said, um, you know, if you want to say, you can say, but you know, if you want to go because he's, you know, he's leaving, you know, we're okay with that too. And I'm sitting there like, well, damn. Well, damn. You know, I mean, it's just like people, some people are just so callous. They just don't, they don't think about. But one thing I did want to, one of many things, but one thing I wanted to ask about, what do you think, what do you think happens with the remaining people after a layoff? I mean, when we talk about the emotions that we feel, just think about the coworkers, you know, people who had been with Sally 14 years or 20 years. They went through the birth of the child. Now that they went through the birth of the child, they went through the child going into school, they went through all these things with their fellow cohorts and growth, and then, and possibly, you know, marriage, college, whatever. And now she's laid off. You know, and you know how we all know how our work becomes our family because we're there sometimes more than we're there with our family, right? And some don't have family, and that's what they call family. What do you think? What do you think happens to that, to the folks that are left behind?

Ryan Calkins 16:13

I think it depends on the impact of people. It's it's very easy to say, oh, it depends, but it it's it it depends on on how the the person was. And, you know, there's some situations where it's like, oh, thank God, they should have fired her 10 years ago. But I don't know, more often than not, I I feel like it it's immediate, you know, grief, I guess, that that a person that you had a good relationship with is now gone. Um, but then it's like the the next thought is like, well, how much of her workload am I gonna get now? So then, you know, it's kind of the anxiety of, okay, well, what does that mean for for my job now?

John Moore 16:51

And my yeah, to your point, and the workload, because think about it. Let's say it's a travel job, and now it was 15 people, and 15 had their regions, they're doing their thing. Now six are gone. So now that means that we're gonna double because we now got to take care of, you know, what's missing. So you got that, and then you have the other piece to it. And I don't think that was a wrong statement. I think that it does depend on the individual. So I'll say Sally, I'll say John, whoever the person is, you know, if they really didn't make an impact to their team, right? Some may say good riddance. If they did make an impact to the team and they were family, it could be a tremendous loss. I've seen people go through grieving processes because it is a tremendous loss.

Ryan Calkins 17:37

It is. And I I don't know. I mean, obviously, once a a termination or or decision that doesn't occur takes place, like the I mean it's made, right? So the the decision is final. Like people move on, business goes back to usual, they bring in replacement employees, everything gets back on track eventually. But I don't know. I I think depending on the situations, some of them stay with you for years. Like there's I mean, there's a couple of people I I think about that it was like 15, 20 years ago that I had to let them go or deny them what they expected. And it it still is something that I think about. And I take it into every similar conversation that I have, you know, in in situations going forward. And it's like, man, like at some of some of them just linger for different reasons.

John Moore 18:42

Tell me, tell me in some of the occasions you had the lingering, if you will. What were some of those occasions? What was it that made it linger? You know, that now 20 years later, 26 years later, you still think about it. Is it that we could have made a better decision? Was a decision that really wasn't on you? It was on somebody else. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 19:01

Well, one was it was totally on well, it was on somebody else, but it it was a situation where the person I I felt from the outside looking in that they didn't receive adequate training and things just from the get-go were not where they needed to be for this person to be successful. And then I was put over this person uh too late to to really make enough of a difference, and I I felt bad also because I didn't push back enough on trying to buy this person more time, and I think it's something that I was able to take into my last job at the the consulting company where it was a similar situation where somebody was facing termination under another manager, and I did go vouch for this person. I said, give me time, give me adequate time to help get this person turned around. But I felt I guess I felt compelled to try because of how I felt I let this other person down, even though I had nothing to do with the failure.

John Moore 20:19

No, I I still appreciate the fact that you tried. And and I definitely have been in the same situation. It makes me think of when I went to the company, and as soon as I got to the company, they said, we want you to lay off all the trainers. And I'm like, but you can't do that. You you know, you're not thinking about the outcome of it all. But in their mind was and said it consistently, even when things went awry, we told you to lay them off. And I'm sitting there thinking, how are you gonna lay off a whole team and y'all are hiring mass hiring that has to be trained? Who did you think we're gonna train all of those people coming through the door? I mean, you're you you weren't even thinking. You weren't even thinking. So I I it's it's sometimes you peep you're placed in such peculiar situations that really put you into a bad place. You have to make those decisions.

Ryan Calkins 21:09

It does. And I I I I think that there are times where I guess it would be easier to be emotionally detached to just be like, well, Sayonara. Next. But I mean, is that really healthy? Is that the way that you you should, you know?

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Mm-mm.

John Moore 21:29

No, I wouldn't want that, even if it was someone that and I know someone would disagree who's listening, who deserved to uh be moved or or or managed out, because there are people that, you know, realistically close. Come on, you gotta think about it. There are people who deserve to be managed out because of their behavior, because of their workload or their work ethic or lack of, um, that you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. But I still don't celebrate in that. I don't find joy in that, even if it It is on them. I don't find joy in that. But you have some people that do. I truly know people who do. I know an SVP that does.

Ryan Calkins 22:09

You you mentioned the the callousness before. How how do you stay confident without becoming callous?

John Moore 22:17

It's a it's a hard balance, but then it's possible, right? Um, because you you you don't want to get to the point to where you become a machine or you become unfeeling or none of that. You don't want, but then at the same time, you know you got to keep this business thing going because now that's all on you. You know, we talked about that before about our responsibilities and what we have to do, keeping teams running, all these wonderful things. You have these dual responsibilities. You have these roles that you have to play, and there's really no option in it. So you just got to find your balance, unfortunately. But getting to the point of callousness is also getting to a point of an emotional detachment that really we don't want to ever get there. But then we don't always want to be so attached to we can't make the decisions and we're paralyzed. It's kind of this balancing act of trying to not go so cold and then not be so warm. So you gotta kind of be in that middle, just kind of teetering, you know, on what you got to do. But I think, I think it's how we go about doing things, to be honest with you. Um, it's it's about being respectful. It's about, you know, when you when you tell someone it's their last day or it's going to be uh a last you know day or whatever it may be, is how you go about doing it. You do it with a sense of pride for that person, you do it with a sense of respect for that person. I think it's how you go about doing it too. And that's what really humbles it. I think that's really the the the it is that humbleness to it as well.

Ryan Calkins 23:45

No, I I I I agree with that. I I know I mentioned crucial conversations on here before and how beneficial the workshops that we had were, and I think it helps when you have a level of EQ and empathy that aids in having those difficult conversations. And I don't want to say that going through those workshops necessarily made anything easier because you still carry that weight having hard discussions. But I think having the practice and the toolkit to better navigate how those conversations go is definitely an asset. Um, because the last thing that you want to do is get caught up in a difficult conversation or have somebody challenge you and you, you know, trip over your own self. And it's like, well, I how about we talk about this later?

John Moore 24:41

Or you say the wrong thing and now they got you. Now HR is you know, calling and all those types of things. Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 24:48

Well, I wanted to give you that promotion, but John really doesn't like you.

John Moore 24:52

Or one time I went up to um a young lady at work and she was kind of being a little erratic, and I was like, You okay? Is everything okay? And I'm looking at her, and her pupils are like, humongosaurus. And I said, You ain't take nothing, have you? You know, I was joking, I thought we had that relationship. She ran HR. John said, Well, I high. I was just asking, are you okay? Because your pupils are like big water saucers, you know what I'm saying? But that's the world you live in that people always want. And in that exchange, I think what she was trying to do was get in front of it so that she wouldn't, so she can already, no, I wasn't high, I was high. Don't say, and I'm sitting there saying, Well, girl, I was just checking in on you. It's so you have those kind of situations as well. It's just you can't be nice to people, you don't have a relationship with people. I mean, the world's changing so much. It's just, I just feel for what the future is going to be like because generations to come don't know how to find the balance in relationship. Um, and not only relationship but words and words that are being said that everything is not to be taken as an offense, right? I mean, because we're talking about generation that everything can be taken as an offense. And it's like, no, you know, we just we just had a lunch together as a teen, you know. So why would I want to offend you? You know, so it's it's just so the world is ever changing. And I don't know what what it's gonna look like in the next 30 years.

Ryan Calkins 26:23

And the crazy thing is, half the time it's not even the person you're talking to that gets offended. It's somebody else getting offended on their behalf.

John Moore 26:30

Thank you. I did one time I did learn, and I must say I was uh I I took it, I took it to the bank. Um, I had said something, and I was trying to explain that that person shouldn't feel. And this was, of course, at work, we're on a conference call, and I was explaining to the person that's not what I said, and you shouldn't feel that way. And so the other person, as you said, who got offended, said, You can't tell her how to feel. And it made me pause and said, Well, I never thought about that. Because I'm not trying to tell her how to feel, that's not the pretense I was thinking, but then I was because I was like, I'm telling you, that's not was, you know, that was not what my intentions were. And hopefully you don't feel that way. And and people always get offended for something that has nothing to do with them. But in that case, I learned from it because I I was of the understanding was I was trying to make the person understand, hey, I'm not trying to offend or do anything like that. But um, the young lady told me you can't tell people how to feel, and I never forgot it.

Ryan Calkins 27:34

Never forgot. That's a good lesson. I I I don't know, I feel like that's something I still catch myself doing.

John Moore 27:41

Me too. Even still, I know better. I still, because it's it's hard.

Ryan Calkins 27:45

Go ahead, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, like, even talking to my wife, it's like, I that's not what I meant. Like, this is what I said, da-da-da. And I'm like, it doesn't matter what I said or how I intended it because how she received it is why she feels the way she feels right now.

John Moore 28:00

Absolutely. So and then you're apologizing all day long and saying, What am I apologizing for? Because that was not my intent, and that's logical. Yeah, that's the logical side of us, but the emotional side of them received it as if there was an intent. So this guy I'm telling you, it's no, it's just it's a constant learning process. If you're not learning from work, you're learning from home. If you're not learning from home, you're learning from somewhere. But I think what's most important is that you have to be open to still continue to learn.

Ryan Calkins 28:33

Yeah, no, I I I think it's it's part of of maturity as as you go through leadership and just kind of learning what to navigate and and what not to, and what you can separate. And I don't know, like even looking at uh you know the so somebody high in empathy like myself, it's easy to become compassionate to a fault to where I don't know, like I've never tried to sugarcoat a message because I always hated the feeling of somebody doing that and telling me, oh, well, you're doing such a great job, but this, this, this, this, this, and this, and you're not gonna get promoted or or whatever it is. It's like, well.

John Moore 29:23

So would you rather just then come straight in without the lube and just go right?

Ryan Calkins 29:28

No, not exactly. I mean, you you still you still want to soften everything, but you know, it it's you you don't want like the the compliment sandwich and just the the level of of I don't know. I uh it it's it's that fake pleasantry right before I don't, you know, like when people come in to a conversation like that, they try to make small talk, it's like, oh, well, how's your day going? How are the kids? How are da-da-da-da-da? By the way, I want to talk to you about what you're doing wrong at work. I'm like, really? Can we just skip all that and just let me know what it is that the problem is? I don't I don't know. But and I've seen you know, managers that do that to other people, and I vowed that I would never be that person to the point to where I've mentioned it before on the show, is that I would let things go, and sometimes it became too much. And I think going through maturity, maturity in leadership, you learn how to balance the level of compassion for people, but also maintaining the boundaries and really keeping yourself from avoiding having those conversations that are absolutely necessary to correct the the behaviors or the issues that that you need to.

John Moore 30:46

And what's also kind of going back, and then I'll go forward, but what's also um funny about what you were saying about them uh uh kind of uh, if you will, um kind of coding or or making the smooth coming into the bad news. Literally, that's what we teach in leadership as to how to deal with difficult conversations. I need to come, you know what I'm saying, come in with this to then go in with that, right? But it's sometimes it's effective because what it does is it takes the it calms the person because they already know that they're in a room, something is happening, you know, they're already preparing themselves for the worst. And so what we were taught, and then I teach is you know, try to calm the situation, bring good things, good compliments, ask about the kids, blah, blah, blah, and then come in with a kind of a soft pitch of the bad news, and then come with the hard pitch, you know. But if you just come in just bam right in there, I don't think people want that either. You may like it, I don't like it. Come in with a little sugar, give me some coffee, you know. Don't just, you know, I need I need a little bit of something.

Ryan Calkins 31:51

No, I I agree. I I think that you you want to temper the bad news, and I think that you want to lessen how abrasive it is. I I don't disagree with that at all, and I do do that, but I try to do it in a way that respects the other person's intelligence to where it doesn't seem like condescending. Yeah, like condescending, or like I'm following a playbook, and you are just a piece of this that I'm going through the numbers to deliver the news that I have to deliver. It's like I have enough respect for you to let you know what is going on, what we need to fix, and offer, you know, whatever resources I can to help you get there. Um, but also it I don't do it in a way that, like you said, it is condescending. And there's so many people that deliver the news that way. And uh then when you sh then when you take that piece of it where it's already condescending and you sandwich it between BS conversation where it's like you don't care about my don't let's not go there. You you don't care.

John Moore 33:02

Like, don't, don't and and I and it's funny you're saying that because I could just remember so many different occasions where that happened, and I think I might have you know boldly said what you just said, uh, but then going into leadership, you know, years after that, you you get it. But I don't think the condescending is good, and I don't think that the um fauceties of things is not good. You know, you really didn't like the person, or you really didn't care nothing about their kids, don't ask about their kids. Don't don't do that. You know, how's your day to day? Okay, good, good, good. I'm sorry I have to give you some bad news, unfortunately. And then you come on in, you know, with it. But don't sit there and say, Well, how are your kids doing? Oh my God, how big is Johnny? You ain't never asked about Johnny before. You ain't never, you know, so I I I get that. I totally get it. But some people, and in everything, some people are nervous. And so they default to the things they think would be more relevant than not. And that's unfortunate, but it's real. And sometimes they, you know, don't know how to deal with you. So which which I'm finding so interesting, and this has a lot to do with how people are are raised, is that they don't know how to deal with difficulty or difficult conversations. Um, they just are so uncomfortable with it, and you know, like those guys, they want to be gone when the administrator is laying people off because they don't know how to deal with it. There was no examples or good examples on how to deal with conducting bad news. And so they stray away from it or they don't do their best in doing it and the delivery of it.

Ryan Calkins 34:33

Yeah. Yeah. And I I well, going back to the the the playbook analogy, I I guess it it is easier for people that are uncomfortable, like you said, to to default to kind of a script.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Uh-huh.

Ryan Calkins 34:48

I think as you mature, you learn the nuances of the discussions, you learn about the people that you're having those chows conversations with, the way that they like to receive the information, and you become more loose with how it's delivered, as long as you are accomplishing the same goal, you're getting the information across, you're making sure that the information is clear and that you are genuinely there in the conversation for that person.

John Moore 35:20

Yes, I agree. I agree. I agree. So for all of you that are out there that don't do well with difficult conversations, really and truly it's important and imperative that being in leadership, whether you get with um uh some form of a speech coach, whether you get on with somewhere that you can practice and and and figure out what's the best method, you have to. If you're gonna be a leadership, you must be able to deal with difficult conversations to be successful. Whether that's delivering bad news, whether that's whatever, you're gonna have to learn how to do that because it should not be always a script. It should be something that's innately a part of you that can deal with it. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 36:00

No, I I agree. I I guess I would add on to that, since we're providing kind of lessons learned, is that I I talked earlier about how I would almost ruminate to a point of unhealthiness on what could I have done better? What could this have, you know, what that, what this, blah, blah, blah. And as I got more experience and I observed other people that were in situations where they were either giving or receiving, you know, decisions that that kind of altered, you know, their career trajectory or whatever it was. It it started, instead of ruminating on everything, I was looking more at reflection and what can I learn from this and how can I take things forward rather than being stuck dwelling on what happened or what could have been different.

John Moore 36:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's a good, that was a very good point too. And I know this sounds crazy, but then that's also why it's needing to have some kind of health balance and mental health balance. Because when you're in leadership, speaking to you as well as myself and to our audience, is uh being in some form of therapy or being in something that reinforces that proper balance is so important because it is hard to do some of the things we've had to do, lay people off, disciplinary actions, manage people, you know, and and and not really have outlets like you would want to. So sometimes it's important to have those outlets and have those resources that really help you through those times so you know how to deal with them better.

Ryan Calkins 37:38

Yeah, no, I agree. I th I think having a therapist or or whatever is very beneficial. Yeah, a coach, a mentor that has been in the the position that you've been in. Um, even healthy self-reflection is very uh beneficial.

John Moore 37:55

Absolutely. Personality tests, uh I'm not sure if our audience knows how Ryan he's created this awesome personality test. If you want more about it, let us know. But it really breaks you down so good in the sense of you know where the areas you can improve, where the areas you should focus on, and things like that. Those things are very, very helpful when you're doing self-reflection, right? So you then have uh a kind of a guide as to where do I go, which is the direction I should go, and where should I, you know, prioritize, you know, those different things. So I agree with you on that.

Ryan Calkins 38:32

Yeah, I guess for our listeners, um, do you have leadership decisions that that you've made that are are still sticking with you and you know affecting you months or or years after the fact?

John Moore 38:47

And if you are, you know, what what are some of the things you're doing to process and how are you processing those things? Um, like Ryan is saying, are there moments where you feel like there's something you could have done it was in your control, or was it not in your control, and you need to figure out how do you resolve and accept and and and find that that balance in it because you know everything is not our fault. Sometimes we're not the ones that's in control, sometimes we're just the ones facilitating the things that need to be done.

Ryan Calkins 39:15

Right. Leadership isn't something that that you will go un unaffected, but it shouldn't it shouldn't leave you feeling trapped.

John Moore 39:26

Very good. I like that. Because then that defeats the purpose. You know, all of us seek this, you know, we're thinking this is the the you know the height of the mountain is being in leadership, and we shouldn't want to seek it, and then we get uh very disenchanted by it. Uh, you know, that defeats the whole purpose. But I think again, if we have mentors, people who can give us those balance, give us the balance, it could be a wonderful uh experience. Uh and also if you don't take it too too serious too, and don't take yourself too serious, be open for the change and be open for development. Um, you know, if you like what you're hearing and if it's giving you some some you know some food for thought, please like, subscribe, uh give us your feedback. Even even if you're having something that's happening in your line, you want us to bring it up as a topic and discuss it, we are open to that as well. We would love to hear from you. We have uh our audience members that do, you know, give us some comments and we do sometimes select them as our our our topic. So we're open to hear that. So like, subscribe, comment, give us some feedback, we would love to hear that.

Ryan Calkins 40:31

Absolutely. And until next week, leading ain't easy.

John Moore 40:34

But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 40:36

Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Reframerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.