When Loyalty Becomes the Default

Ryan Calkins once turned down a job offer (and a $50,000 raise) because leaving felt disloyal. A year later, it turned out to be one of the biggest mistakes of his career. Ryan and John Moore talk through what loyalty at work really costs when it stops being a choice.

Most leaders don't worry about being too loyal; they worry about being disloyal. But loyalty is one of those qualities that can turn into something else entirely: guilt, fear, or just habit wearing a nicer name. In this episode, Ryan and John sit with the uncomfortable side of a word that usually gets treated as an unqualified good.

Ryan opens up about a real turning point in his career: a competitor offered him a substantial raise and a promotion, and he turned it down to stay where he felt invested and needed. He took a smaller raise instead, and thought he'd made the right call, until a year-end conversation with the CEO revealed how badly it had actually gone.

John brings his own story from the other side: being told by leadership to clean house and fire an entire staff, and having to decide in real time whose side he was really on.

Ryan and John get into:

• What it actually feels like to stay somewhere out of obligation instead of choice
• The moment loyalty stops being healthy and starts being self-sabotage
• Why companies expect loyalty from employees without ever explaining their own decisions
• The difference in how loyalty gets treated at the executive level versus everywhere below it
• How to know when someone's history with you is clouding a decision you need to make now
• Where boundaries fit into loyalty, and why loyalty without boundaries usually goes wrong

This isn't a framework for how to be more loyal. It's two people who've been burned by their own loyalty, talking honestly about what they'd do differently.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

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Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. But you can often find yourself being loyal or what you call loyal when it is really something else.

John Moore 1:11

And we want to talk about kind of the re-examining that word of loyalty and how loyalty can be interpreted in different ways and how you have been put in those situations to where you can relate to the topic we're going to talk about today.

Ryan Calkins 1:25

Absolutely. So most leaders probably don't worry about being too loyal. You worry about being disloyal a hundred percent. Like you don't want people that are disloyal, but loyalty feels inherently good, right?

John Moore 1:38

Yes. Always. I I've always been one that says loyalty is important to me. I want my staff to be loyal to me and things like that. If there's anything going wrong, let me know so I can be aware of it and things of that. But then I also know that loyalty can be almost to a default. I think that's where I was going too. It can almost be it to a default. And that's what I really want to talk about today is to when it gets to loyalty being at the default of you, your department, you know, however, we want to, you know, go deeper into that.

Ryan Calkins 2:06

You can be loyal to a fault. And I probably know better than anybody as a dog on the Chinese zodiac. Um I'm inherently loyal and it has bit me many times.

John Moore 2:22

Absolutely. And I think, well, let me ask you before I think, do you think it's because of what we define loyalty as being that that's why we sometimes get bit and the booty about it? Or is it how it is redefined within the industries that we go into? Where do you think that kind of thing happens?

Ryan Calkins 2:42

I mean, there's there's the idea of what loyalty means in general, right? But I think for me it's harder because I also carry that emotional attachment to things and people that when I go out of my way for somebody, they go out of their way for me. It's kind of like, you know, you you start to build this bond, and then I fool myself into thinking, oh, well, this place or these people can't function without me here. Like I need to stay part of this team because we're invested in each other. And it, you know, it's sad when other people leave, but for some reason, I hold myself to a different standard. It's like, oh, I can't be the one that leaves. Like I have to remain consistent.

John Moore 3:26

But is there something really wrong with that? I guess I'll come back with you. Is there something really wrong with feeling like you're needed? And not to the point of like we've talked in previous um uh segments, uh, where we're saying, you know, that's for the negative, but for the good. It's like you know that you're a good part of the team, you're an asset, all those wonderful things. And if you leave, then you know, what what does that do? Is there is that a bad thing?

Ryan Calkins 3:51

Don't think it's a bad thing until it is. Like there are there's times where it's like you feel the writing on the wall, or or you know that you've outgrown a position or a company or a team, but you stay out of that sense of loyalty and duty. And I think digging deeper into that and kind of the stuff that you and I had discussed, a lot of time when you're looking at that, it is your, I guess, external justification of being loyal when really it's more guilt or fear or everything else that you chalk up to being loyalty. Maybe it's a, I don't know, a scapegoat or whatever, but you feel that sense of abandonment in that time, too? Or you would be abandoning your team? Yeah, I mean, I guess it's it's it's kind of like leaving and leaving them hanging and not wanting to be the one to do that.

John Moore 4:52

I think about still, as we're thinking about the others, how much we don't think about ourselves in those moments, too, right? That you're thinking about, well, dang, if I leave them, you know, what's gonna happen, blah, blah, blah. But what if there is a prime opportunity that can really take you to your career level, your next level, and you're literally just focused on them and not you? Is that a selfish thinking, or is that being selfless?

SPEAKER_02 5:17

What do you think? I don't know.

Ryan Calkins 5:23

It it's not I've come to realize it's not selfish to think about yourself and put yourself first, but I still struggle to do it because subconsciously I feel like I need to put everybody else ahead of myself. And I take the brunt of it and and feel the effects more because I I don't I don't know why. It is something I have always struggled with. And it's just okay, I need to shoulder this load for the sake of everybody else when I'm the one that's getting boned. And even having, you know, a wife and kids now, it's like I still find myself struggling with that dynamic to not do it and put myself first.

John Moore 6:12

And with my feedback, as you were talking, I was thinking about my scenario where, uh, and I've mentioned this before in our session, in other segments, whatever, um, where the the leadership said, we want you to fire everyone. And I was just like, ah, Lee, how do you do that? You just, you know, I don't I I you know, I don't know these folks. I've already had our one-on-ones, and they want to fire everybody. And so the first thing I thought about was, dang, they've given their time, they've given their efforts, they've been here. How do you just fire people across the board and say, oh, we're just starting anew, right? And then on top of that, not even thinking about the um the the the the the the the down period, if you will. So if you let everybody go, well, how are we gonna do our jobs? Because we need them to do our jobs, right? So it it's it's it's very interesting because at that time I could have very well thought about me. And I could have thought about, well, this is probably what they want to see me do and see if I'm gonna be a team player. Am I gonna just go along with it and just you know not go against? And I I think I pay, I think I failed the test because I think that's what they wanted. They wanted me just to come in, finally get somebody who's gonna wipe the wipe it clean, and then, you know, there we go. But I came in thinking about them having their loyalty and their sacrifice for the company. Why aren't we thinking about that? Now, since I've had that experience, I don't know if I'll do the same thing again, to be honest with you. Um, because I've always been the one that thought about the staff before me. Always, always thought about the staff before me. And the staff has always gave me their ass to kiss. Every single time. So it says, well, how many times are you gonna get burnt for you then to realize you have to try something different? And so I said, even this week, I said, if if an opportunity comes up, I will be different. I'm not gonna be cold-hearted, I'm not gonna be callous or anything like that, but I will be more in the directive of, you know, we gotta do what we gotta do. And that's sad because you get it from both sides. The staff gives you buckets, your leadership gives you buckets, and it's like, so which one do you lean more to? And I think you have to look at what's best for yourself. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 8:28

I think it's always a struggle to look at what's best for yourself. Um I don't know. Like isn't that D? It is. I think the most recent major event that I had tied to that sense of loyalty was a job that I was at where a competitor approached me with a job offer. I went through the interview process. They were going to give me a promotion and a raise that was 40 to 50,000 more than what I was making, which seemed great. You know, I had just had my second kid, and it was a huge opportunity to transfer over and and join something else. And I don't know, I didn't want to leave because of the you know, six years or seven years of investment that I had where I was with the people I had built relationships with and all of the growth and everything, and being the only subject matter expert in my department, I felt guilty uh about leaving. And then I, you know, let that influence a major part of everything. Part of it was also I just had my second kid. So I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to go in and invest all of the time and effort that I could into this new role. Um, and it was just part of the fear of change, and all of it was just kind of building up to the point that I decided I really wanted to stay where I was and let them know like I don't want to leave. I was approached, this is what I was presented. They did end up giving me a promotion and they gave me half of what the other company was going to offer, and I was fine with that. I mean, not half of the the overall salary, but half of the uh the bump. Oh, the bump.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 10:29

And for me, it's like, okay, well, I'm fine taking that half because I'm staying where I'm comfortable with people that I'm invested in, I know these processes, etc. And on the surface, it seemed great, like a huge win, it was a victory. In hindsight, it was a major screw up. I would have been better off leaving and taking the new role because the moment that I approached them with that job offer, I had a target on my back. And the CEO at the end of the year, we were having drinks at our holiday function. And he let me know that I put them in a horrible spot by forcing their hand before they were ready to give me the promotion and the raise. And uh it was a it was an open conversation, which I appreciated, but I also read the room and everything that he was saying, and it uh definitely went downhill over the course of the next year from there.

John Moore 11:37

I said it's but you know what's so funny is that when it is of higher leadership, executive leadership, that is thought of as being a positive in a lot of ways because you know, somebody else wants you, you know, you, you know, whatever, whatever. But when we're at that mid-level, director level, VP level, or anything less, it's like, uh, you know, you're really putting us in a bad position. Because if it was a CEO that they wanted to go to another company because they're doing so great over there and how they're, you know, being productive and they're making their numbers and they want to bring them over, it's like, you know, do what you got to do. Or they'll say, no, we need you so Matt, you know, we'll keep you. What does it take to keep you? But it's a sad thing when they put us in such situations too, because if they would have said to you, all right, we know we can't do this for you right now, but you are on track for this promotion. You're the only person we're gonna give this to you. You might have very well saved the course. You might have very well continued on. Maybe, maybe not. You you might have, but then to say, well, we gave you the money, but you really put us in a bad situation and then made hell for you for the rest, that's not cool either. Because it's like, why do something if y'all knew y'all really weren't ready to do it too? Yeah. Or or if they didn't want to. It's like, don't do it. Let me know. I would have happily, you know, bounced. Yeah, and bounce and take. But that's the thing. They they wanted, they wanted to keep you, but then as you as you said, they say, you know, you push their hand. It's just the most precarious situations that employees are put into. They expect for you not to grow or not to have other opportunities or not to want other opportunities. Uh, and but I like I said, I've seen at the executive level, it's like, wow, you know, this is what we groomed you for, blah, blah, blah. And then nobody has a problem with it unless they're just bitching after the fact. But it's it's just so sad. I want to pose something to you. I thought about this question. Do you think that leadership, uh, do you think that leadership probably doesn't worry about being uh too loyal, uh, whether to the staff or to others, do you think they they worry about it being, you know, too loyal?

Ryan Calkins 13:47

I think a lot of times leadership expects loyalty from employees that they have and expects them to wait for promotions and raises and everything else, which I as a leader and a manager I respect. The problem. Oh, go ahead. No, I'm I'm talking with you saying, and then an employee. Go ahead. Well, the the problem that I have is a lot of times I feel people don't provide reasoning on why they aren't providing a raise or promotion or whatever it is at the time. So it just leaves everything open and questioned, and then you have a dissatisfied employee. And that's not to say that your justification will make somebody happy anyway. They may still leave. But if you let them know why, like the one that I shared before, where the entire company wanted to promote this woman that was great at what she did, but wasn't prepared for the next level. And being able for me to talk to her, be reasonable, let her know exactly what was on the table and what we were shooting for, I think it was a huge benefit for what we needed to do and it got her to where she needed to be. Um the person who gave the same, you know, responses to me, had I done that to her, it would have just left things, you know, up in the air. It's like, okay, well, we're not gonna do that. Or it's like, okay, well, I'll give it to you, but now I'm gonna be petty and annoyed.

John Moore 15:29

Exactly. But I I want to expand more on your statement about leadership wanting you as the employee, us as the employee, even if we're in leadership, uh, to be loyal to them. Um, I find that to be such uh a one-sided scenario in a lot of ways where they want you to be loyal, but they don't be loyal to you, like you just described about defining the why. And I think you have a valid point there because if we define the why about, okay, look, and get full transparency. Listen, the reason we're not doing raises, the reason why we're not doing bonuses, the reason why we're not promoting is because look, here's our numbers. This is where we're at. Full transparency really does allow for a person to feel like they're part of the decision making. And it's not just because you're being an a-hole, you're not moving people up or you're not giving raises, it's because we can't afford it. I've heard many companies be real about, hey, this is the situation, this is why we're not. But when we are, we'll make it, we'll make it golden for you. We'll make sure we take care of you guys. I've seen that. But I think a lot of times they want you to be blindly loyal, is where I'm going with that. Uh, with with into the not asking questions and not deserving an answer, right? I think that that's where you lose a lot of people because it's like, okay, I appreciate the fact that yes, we want to be loyal, but can you also give me why I should be loyal? Right? Not for this is the fact that I have a job. I get you on that, but also what's this relationship about? Is this relationship with honesty? Is it dishonest? You know, loyalty has many levels with it. And I think that it's not just you do as I say and I do as I do. Um, I think that it's deeper than that. And I and I find this topic very interesting because I've been in situations where a boss I could think of immediately, I was doing a contract job, and um he really liked my work and he liked my turnover. And it was really a blessing to hear that because no one had actually recognized the work that I was doing. And he was like, Well, look, I don't have anything right now, but by January, I'm gonna literally create a position for you. And so I was like, Yeah, yeah, whatever. He did it. Literally, he did it. And I was like, wow. And so even in the time that I worked for him, it was like he couldn't do no wrong. You know, I had to make sure that I didn't, you know, rock the boat or anything like that. But then I had to start seeing him for who he was too. Sometimes he he sometimes he would stir up pots, sometimes he wasn't, you know, the best of nicest of persons. I mean, you have to see people what they really are. So loyalty should not be a one-way thing. It should be more universal and it should be transparent. That's what I've learned over the years. I think at the beginning, I was very um naive, that it was more appreciative that I had the job, and I was like, do whatever you tell me to do, I'm gonna do it, rock and roll. Um then a change happened, and it was like, okay, do everything you want me to do, but then I would question. And then now I'm in a whole different place where it's like, okay, you know, look, who who are we gonna look out for? And I think prioritizing oneself is okay. Uh, and I think it's okay to prioritize yourself and also when you're in work environments when you find your balance. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 18:46

No, I think I fell victim to the the thankful for a job, blind loyalty at the beginning, peace at at every job, because I mean you are grateful that you were afforded an opportunity and you want to make the most of it. And when you first start, you have no reason to feel any way else, right? To to distrust anybody or anything. And as time goes on and you see how people are, um, I think things can change. I think the problem that I've had is that I see that change. Like I am blessed and cursed with an ability to read people and see behind the facade and everything else that they put forward that a lot of people overlook or just don't pay attention to. And it makes things very difficult for me to operate knowing that somebody is completely full of shit while also trying to not show that I know it, which is another challenge of mine, not being able to have a poker face. But I don't know, when when I start to distrust people, it makes things at work hard to show up the same way. Um, and it's a battle that I have for myself that I need to do, but it's also trying to convince myself or or or tell myself, oh, well, it's it's not really like that. You're reading too far into it, you know, it in delaying and delaying out of this sense of loyalty or or whatever it may be that I'm chalking up as loyalty, and oh, I should give this person a chance. I don't know them, blah, blah, blah. Even though they're presenting things that I've seen a million times before and I know where this is headed, I still convince myself and I talk myself out of it.

John Moore 20:43

No, I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

I totally hear you on that. Do you think that loyalty is inherently good? Or should it go the old-fashioned way where we kind of, you know, you earn the loyalty?

Ryan Calkins 20:59

It's difficult because I used to be very reserved, um, and I would operate from a place of making people earn my trust. And it was better for me in the sense of I guess emotional security and everything else, but it took a lot longer to build relationships and network, which I still hate, but just being able to be socially present and open, I I feel like was delayed a lot when I was reserved myself. So I tried to shift into being more open and honest, which really helped to I guess accelerate relationship building. But it also at the same time. Exposed me to getting screwed over and presenting myself.

John Moore 22:08

I I just no that question itself, you know, we cannot always assume that loyalty is inherently good because one the persons in which you are maybe wanting the loyalty from doesn't deserve that same. So they may misuse it. I mean, when you think of loyalty, loyalty is not just a word, it's a it's a it's a downing and transaction, but it's kind of even the spirit, it's kind of it's deeper than just some surface stuff. So yeah, it's hard. It really, really is, and I totally get it. Um, I was also thinking about um what happens when someone did something yesterday that influences um basically what decisions you have to make today. You know, like if somebody stayed late and they stayed with you, it was a project that we all need to have all hands on deck, and you see that some stayed and some are your old faithfuls, right? Um, they stayed behind, and then now the next day you gotta, I don't know, give out bonuses or you have to give out time off. Are you are you being influenced by what they did the other day? And I would say yes, because we're human. We're gonna go based upon what someone's good actions would be, and that we're gonna we're gonna appraise them or applaud them for it.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

What do you think? I love when I see it. No, it's just I love it, I love it.

Ryan Calkins 23:35

All these questions just carry so many different uh it's it it's really people get stuck in in what have you done for me lately, right? Mm-hmm. And it's just and hold it over you too, right? They do, but it is just another instance of you could have somebody that you've been with for five, 10 years that has always been dependable, and now you know, the this past six months to a year, they're not dependable. And it's like, okay, well, do I cut this person, bring in somebody cheaper? You have all these decisions. Do I afford them some leeway because they have historically been dependable? And it's just trying to measure what that new line in the sand is, I guess, in order to make a decision. But I don't know. I it for me personally, it's hard to separate that relationship and historical context of what that person brought to the table and just make a cold decision to where, oh, well, they're not performing like they used to later. Um, I always want to try and dig, well, you know, within a professional limitation and boundary, but try to find out what is going on with this person now, what you know they need in order to get back to where they were. And maybe it's a situation where they're never going to get back, but I feel like it's part of my responsibility as a leader and manager to do what I can.

John Moore 25:23

And and I don't think there's anything wrong with remembering, you know, that they were the ones that stayed behind or they're the ones that always say late. So I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Um, but I think what becomes wrong with it, with it, thank you for that, is when it becomes an expectation. Right? I think that's when it something becomes wrong with it. Like, you know, I stay behind, so why don't I? Why can't I? You know, why didn't I get the promotion? You know, it's not about that, you know, because again, we all make a choice for what we do, but it should not be now you're holding me hostage based upon the things in which you do. And whether it's extra or whether it's not, right, uh the choice was yours. You know, we never said this is, you know, a mandate that you have to do. You chose to stay behind. If you chose to stay behind and work or do whatever that was, well, that was because you had the time to do it. And it wasn't like you did it for free, because of course we still paid you. Um, but this the scenario comes, I think, more when that person tries to bring it back up and say, I did this for you, I did that for you. And now they have an expectation.

Ryan Calkins 26:30

Yeah. And that part, right, that that and the and the entitlement that's tied to it. So as a leader and a manager, like you remember all of the things that occurred, and I mean you're human, so it's not like you don't know that this person has been there.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Absolutely.

Ryan Calkins 26:49

But have you ever been in a situation where you allow kind of that history to override the present when maybe it shouldn't?

John Moore 27:01

Yes and no. Um, because uh when you think about people standing in the gap or we don't have the staff, and you know, these things do occur. I want to give, I want to give um, I don't know, kudos, want to give props, want to give credit for that, right? And then at the same time, um things may happen to where, okay, they may they may not have time anymore. I think I've had this scenario, they may not have time anymore on the books. So now they're not gonna get paid for whatever, you know, their reasonings. So I might go behind and talk to HR or whatever and figure out how we can, you know, go more. I may go the extra laps to get those things done for them because of what they've done, because of the history, because of who they are. Um, but then the come back uh to that same point and then they have an expectation, that's where it kind of gets a little funky because it's like, you know, again, we've done these things, I've done some things for you, you've done some things for me, and now it's like now it's an expectation. I think that's when it kind of crosses the line, when it becomes an expectation. Because before we were more of a the relationship was more of a transactional and a positive, in a healthy way, but now it's becoming more of holding me hostage. And that's when when the roads then have to, you know, have a break off because I don't like to be held hostage and I don't like for anyone to hold me hostage.

Ryan Calkins 28:30

What about when the the situation isn't isn't a matter of somebody else's expectations, but it's your personal investment in somebody that you have helped develop and you get them to a spot where they start to stall, but it's hard to come down on them because it's like, okay, well, I got you to this point, I can get you further. I'm, you know, I'm I'm uh uh invested in you now. I want to see you succeed. And you give chance after chance after chance, and eventually it's like, okay, this isn't going to go the way that we want this to, and you have to make a decision for yourself. Like, did I put this person on the right track? Do I need to find a new position for them where maybe they can succeed because my hope for them isn't going to materialize, or do we cut bait as as much as it may hurt?

John Moore 29:26

Yeah, and I and when you were saying that, and you have asked me this question before, and I didn't think of it until when you asked it again. And I have had a situation, I won't go too too in depth because it turned out to be real ugly at the back end, but I had brought in someone that I had consulted with before and brought them, gave them the job, everything was working out fine. Um, so we thought um the training could have been a little bit lax, but by her coming from the background she came from, I expected more of her. Um, but it came to the point where she wasn't um, she wasn't performing. She wasn't performing at all. She wasn't doing anything she needed to do to get to the level she needed to do, and we had to start uh managing her out. Started having conversations with her. Umfortunately, she threatened me. And unfortunately, she threatened me via text. And so she had to go. Um, because, you know, we we can't do that. You know, we cannot not do that. And so, yeah, it it and and I mean, totally sponsored her and everything, made sure she had everything she needed, got her everything she needed, boom, boom, boom. And then when you weren't able, meaning that person wasn't able to come up to the to the plat and play, up to the bat and play, um she then had expected that we were not to do anything and just allow her just to ride out, and that just couldn't be. Couldn't be. So yeah, I've had those instances and it just didn't it didn't end up well at all.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

And more for them, not for me.

John Moore 30:57

Yeah, you know, people I'm telling you, staff has really given me their ass. And I mean, I've gone to bat for them. I mean, stupidly, hey, how much do you want your salary? They said what they wanted, I put it down on paper, I got it for them. And you still give me your ass to kiss.

Ryan Calkins 31:15

Well, because once you get something, it's it's like if you give a mouse a cookie, you know?

John Moore 31:20

Yeah. It's just, you know, it's it's but it's sad. But not to feel like the victim, I've learned so much from that because I think my whole management approach was from my experiences and I wanted to be the opposite, right? So if I had asshole bosses, I didn't want to be that. If I had people who didn't care for me or care for us as a team, I didn't want to be that. So everything that I saw, I wanted to be total opposite of that, especially in being a leader. And then going up in the ranks, I wanted to be better and better and better. But um never knowing, and no one ever trained that John, you have to be mindful about staff. These are individuals. They all have their motives, they all have their logic, their manipulations, and things like that. And I've learned that over the years. So yeah, if I ever get an opportunity again, I totally would be different. I probably would still be about, I would say, 60 to 50% same, but then I'll have another 50% that I would be approaching them differently.

Ryan Calkins 32:19

No, that makes sense.

John Moore 32:20

Because you can't have, you know, all this experience and then not learn something from it.

Ryan Calkins 32:25

Well, you can absolutely the knowledge and the history and still struggle to implement it. Yeah, to implement it. Not me. Shit.

John Moore 32:37

Nope-mm. I mean, because I mean, I'm not gonna lie, it hurts. You know, leaders, leaders are not um, we're not a we're not um robots. We are human beings. We have feelings just like anybody else. And so when you think about when you fight for someone, you get them, you know, get them in, what are all these things that we do to get folks in, and then they do what they do. It's a very daunting feeling. So I have really learned from that. Really, I have.

Ryan Calkins 33:03

No, as you were talking about that, I was thinking about the organizational change that I led in this company where things were very toxic and problematic. And part of the ownership change was a shift in culture. And I don't know, as we were going through everything and I was pushing to focus on team building and being reliant on one another and trying to develop that that sense of loyalty to each other, you know, to build a strong, formidable team. And as we were going through it, it's sometimes culture change can lead to a culture that you don't want to be part of. And just going through it, like I I was seeing a lot of people for who they were, and realizing that a lot of it was just posturing and it wasn't real, and just knowing that you know, things change, like organizations change, people change, you change, and I just I don't know, I I part of me still stayed loyal because I guess not only did I have the relationships with these people that I was starting to distrust because of what I was privy to seeing. It was just I I guess I still wanted to see myself as a loyal person, and it wasn't like justifying my loyalty, but I guess it was more in line of protecting my identity as somebody that that is loyal.

John Moore 34:56

What do you think you because I I think I know this, so what do you think you got your foundation in that whole theory of loyalty? What do you think you got that from? Was it from the service? Was it prior to?

Ryan Calkins 35:05

I think part of it was prior to and just kind of my upbringing. Um but I feel like it was really enhanced, I guess, by military service and experiences that you have with people that nobody else shares. So you have this kind of, I don't even want to call it blind loyalty because it's not like people got in trouble. I'm like, oh, well, let me go do that too, or whatever else. But it it's you you have these bonds with people that share experiences that you'll nobody else will have. Like different people will also go through boot camp or go through traumatic whatever, but it's it's it's all different, you know. Your exact experiences will never be identical or the same as anybody else's. So it's unique to that group and team. And even when you go, you go through work and you, you know, you have projects that you work on or or school projects, whatever it is, like the bonds and things that you share with people are unique experiences.

John Moore 36:06

Yeah, and I I would say the same. Mine was definitely more in growing up, my mother was one unknowingly until I became an adult, that everything was about loyalty. Everything was about loyalty. So yeah, I get it. I totally get it. But I wonder is loyalty healthy? Is it also a healthy thing? Can it be healthy? Yes. Okay I I I make it unhealthy for myself. And we all could. We could all could do that. Go ahead. Talk about when it's when it's healthy and unhealthy.

Ryan Calkins 36:39

Well, so you mentioned the service, and then there's this whole concept of no man left behind, right? So you want to go out of your way to make sure that everybody that you are responsible for or that is part of your team has what they need to be successful. So you try to bring them up and and go out of your way to keep them at a point where they need to be, even if they don't want to be. And just not wanting to be a person that gives up on somebody else, even when all of the signs are there that it is not going to work.

John Moore 37:13

Mm-hmm. And then so it's which is that the healthy or the unhealthy?

Ryan Calkins 37:19

That is the unhealthy to where you are ignoring all of the signs that things are going very, very wrong. Like when you are able to come out of that quicksand to be on top, then it's like the validation, you're like, yes, I did it, you know, I'll do it again. But more often than not, it doesn't work out the way that you hope.

John Moore 37:44

And so when it's healthy, I think you correct me if I'm wrong, I think when it's healthy, when it is projected in the level of honesty, transparency, we have the full understanding as to why we're we're being loyal to the companies, to the individual, whatever it may be. And then we also know our boundaries. And that's something that we hadn't talked about. Within loyalty, you still need to have boundaries, right? Especially when we're talking about leadership and we're talking about uh corporate America, that there has to be boundaries. Because in corporate America, and really in life too, but sometimes people cross those boundaries, is that there has to be a limit to your loyalty because you can go so far out of bounds where now you're in jeopardy. So that's why I think healthy boundaries makes loyalty healthy, um, because you have to know when loyalty is at one point and now doing something that's not a part of loyalty is now just doing something that's just an infraction. It's totally different. And I think we have to know those, those, those lanes that you're in because you have to have a healthy boundary within loyalty. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 38:51

I agree. I think it's even when it when it comes to relationships. And, you know, you and I have a I consider a loyal relationship. And I trust you, we can speak freely, I can talk to, you know, other people about it. I but there's also the other end where, you know, if you and I stop talking, or if I find myself that I'm the only one that ever engages and you become short or you're not really responding after a while, it's like, okay, well, maybe I need to accept reality that this isn't really a friendship anymore. And I mean, it's just it's another piece of of loyalty that becomes unhealthy because you can only do so much. You can't force the other person to do it. But when you can be loyal and have it reciprocated, I think that that is healthy loyalty to somebody that you know would do the same for you.

John Moore 39:46

Absolutely. And I and I think that's spot on because uh, as I mentioned about the transactional, transactional relationships can be a good thing or a bad thing, but also transactional relationships can be healthy because if I'm in a friendship, I check in on you, I want to have you check in on me. You know, it should be these types of things, uh but which also creates a form of loyalty, right? A form of an expectation, right? Because that's what loyalty is, is in the form of an expectation. And so um I just believe, especially coming back to uh corporate and corporate America, loyalty can be healthy with boundaries. If you got good boundaries in play, oh yeah, you could do really good. If you don't have boundaries in play, you can do some things that can cause some infractions, and we don't want that. Even down to having inappropriate relationships in the corporate environment because you you're so loyal to the person, you're thinking this is what the expectation is. You know, uh happens a lot uh in a lot of different industries where they think that's a part of the call. You have to do these things, you know, if you want to, if you want this, want this, you gotta do this. That's a part of the job. And it's like, wow. And some people feed into it, some people don't. Yeah. Some people do. I was watching this new, and it's off topic, but I it makes me think about she was more of a setup, but it's this new movie called Kate Fear. And so the two attorneys, you can see that she likes him and he likes her, and both one is married and one is not. And it gets to a point where uh the person that they're uh consulting with says, I don't want her on this case anymore. And so then the attorney says, Well, look, um, you know, I'm not the kind of person that will call HR and say, you know, these are the things that happened, blah, blah, blah. And you're sitting there saying, Well, wait a minute now. I didn't ask you to engage with me. I didn't ask, but these things happen because sometimes people believe that that's what you wanted to happen. That that was a part of the loyalty, that was a part of the whole bigger picture, and really it's not. Sometimes we make choices that we shouldn't make.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Well, you yeah, you do.

John Moore 41:55

Make choices that we should make, and we make assumptions. I'll put that on there too, that you shouldn't make.

Ryan Calkins 42:00

Well, I mean, so we talked about some of them with with the external decision making, like staying in an organization you've outgrown, or keeping people in positions too long, or making protecting relationships from consequences. Exactly. Internally, you could be avoiding guilt or lying to yourself or or afraid of looking selfish because you're loyal, you know, or or even hiding behind like a uh, you know, a fear of failure or or or doubt. Impassion. Yeah.

unknown 42:36

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 42:36

And confusing gratitude with obligation.

John Moore 42:39

Absolutely. Oh, that's a very good one because a lot of people do do that. That's a very, that's a very big thing. They confuse gratitude with obligation and thinking, oh, they think that I'm so good, so I have to.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Pretty deep, but it's real. So, what do you think when you think about this?

John Moore 42:59

This has been a good topic. So, when we think about this whole, and I'm speaking also to our audience as well, when we think about this whole thing called loyalty, and we are identifying that there's healthy loyalty, there's unhealthy loyalty, loyalty with boundaries, loyalty with consequences, um, loyalty that can be a positive thing, one could be misinterpreted. Um, does it give you a different perspective as to you know how we look at loyalty, how you looked at loyalty as a leader? Do you now have a different perspective about it? Do you think the way you did it, you did it right? What what do you think?

Ryan Calkins 43:36

I think as I've grown and matured, I've realized that I can appreciate people for what they've done for me, but I can also disagree with them for things that go against what I believe or or see, and know that I don't always have to agree with them. Because of the things or positions that they put me in.

John Moore 44:04

Now, and I'm I'm gonna probably use myself in this one, but then also suffer the consequences of if you go against, because you know that's kind of our makeup too. It's like if we go against it, there could be a consequence, and then we're worried about the consequences, whether it's you at the bitter end where they do what they do to you, was it me, whether they, you know, have a setup in the beginnings. I mean, there's that consequence there that can lie there too.

Ryan Calkins 44:29

Yeah, I think also actually listening to your intuition and feelings when things don't seem right, and knowing that you can love the organization or love the people you built relationships with and still leave because the people that you truly had relationships will still be there even when you're not part of the organization. The ones that fall off and disappear never really saw you as anything more than a colleague anyway.

John Moore 45:03

I agree. And that's real because that has happened multiple times. So yeah, I get that 100%. Very good topic, very good topic.

Ryan Calkins 45:11

So a couple of questions for the audience. Think about where loyalty currently shows up in your leadership. Is there a person, a decision, a team, even the organization that you're protecting primarily because of history? And think if all that history disappeared and you were looking at the situation for the first time today, would you make the same decisions?

John Moore 45:35

And if you were to make the same decisions, would you worry about the outcome? I mean, I think that's important too. Would you worry as much about the outcome? Um, now knowing what you know now, would you worry about the outcome? Would you still stay firm in your decision and knowing what you're doing is right for you? And as we spoke of earlier about prioritizing you and prioritizing your career. If you like what we're talking about, please like and subscribe. Give us some feedback. Uh, we would love to hear from you. We would love to see comments from you. We take your comments and your feedback. Very important to us. Uh, we would love for you to like and subscribe. Until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone. Take care.

Ryan Calkins 46:23

Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Refraimerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.