The Truth About Botox: Two Experts, Two Very Different Perspectives Ep 35

Botox might be one of the most polarizing cosmetic treatments right now.

Ask one expert and they’ll tell you it’s one of the most studied cosmetic treatments in the world and can be used safely when administered correctly.

Ask another in the holistic world, and they’ll tell you we’re injecting a neurotoxin into our faces without fully understanding the potential long-term or downstream effects.

So I kept asking myself, how can two worlds look at the exact same treatment and come to such different conclusions?

For over a year, I’ve wanted to put those perspectives in the same room.

And that’s exactly what we did.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Manolis Manolakakis, an Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon and Facial Cosmetic Surgeon, and Shelly Marshall, a former nurse injector and Founder of Beauty Shamans.

I wanted to understand how two people with so much firsthand experience in this space could see the same treatment so differently — and dig deeper into why their conclusions are so different.

This isn’t a debate. It isn’t about choosing sides. And this episode isn’t here to tell you what to do.

It’s an invitation to hear two very different perspectives, ask better questions, and ultimately make your own informed decision.

CHAPTERS

00:00 – Why this Botox conversation matters
06:54 – Meet the guests: Two very different perspectives on Botox
10:24 – My personal Botox journey
12:46 – What Botox actually is + medical vs. cosmetic uses
17:42 – How Botox became so normalized
23:15 – Who should actually be injecting Botox?
28:27 – Informed consent & responsibility in the Botox industry
31:11 – The toxin debate: Is Botox actually more dangerous than we are being told?
40:59 – The possible downstream effects of Botox
48:27 – What are women really searching for?
50:43 – Why Shelly stopped injecting Botox
58:44 – The psychology behind cosmetic procedures
1:01:39 – Can Botox actually be empowering?
1:05:42 – Can Botox, face yoga & holistic beauty coexist?
1:10:38 – Why are we so afraid of aging?
1:21:14 – Final thoughts: bridging both worlds

Wherever you currently stand on Botox, I hope this conversation encourages you to stay curious, ask better questions, and make decisions that feel informed and aligned for you.

I’d love to hear your biggest takeaway — or whether anything in this conversation changed the way you think about Botox — in the comments.

CONNECT WITH THE GUESTS

Dr. Manolis Manolakakis
Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon + Facial Cosmetic Surgeon
IG: https://www.instagram.com/drmanolakakis/
Website: https://advanced-facialsurgery.com/

Shelly Marshall
Founder, Beauty Shamans
IG: https://www.instagram.com/beautyshamans/
Website: https://www.beautyshamans.com/pages/our-story

CONNECT WITH LANAROSE & CONSCIOUS CONCIERGE

IG: @lanalanarose
Conscious Concierge: @yourconsciousconcierge
Website: YourConsciousConcierge.com

Conscious Concierge helps people navigate health, wellness, spirituality, and personal growth by connecting them with trusted practitioners, resources, and support—so they can make more informed decisions and find what’s right for them.

🎙️ Conscious Conversations with LanaRose explores the many perspectives within health, wellness, and spirituality. This podcast is rooted in curiosity, nuance, and the belief that no one person, modality, or philosophy holds the whole truth.

On a mission for personal truth, I invite you to explore these conversations with me.

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#Botox #BotoxSafety #BotoxSideEffects #NaturalAging #FaceYoga #Aesthetics #HolisticHealth #ConsciousConversations

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Botox has become one of the most normalized beauty treatments in the world. It's literally everywhere. We talk about it super casually. People are going to get it on their lunch breaks. And at the same time, I've been seeing so much rising polarity around this conversation. So I kept asking myself, how are these two worlds so far apart in this conversation? How can one world say this is totally normal and safe when done correctly? And another world say this is way more dangerous than people realize. As a seeker of truth, this is exactly what I wanted: a more honest and nuanced conversation with both perspectives in one room. Dr. M, I chose you because when I was thinking of like who is the highest credentialed person that knows the face, I thought of you because you're an oral maxiofacial surgeon.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

I think it's important to discuss the different sides of what's going on. I was excited to come here to learn too.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

And then when I talked to you, it was so refreshing because A, you had been an injector and a nurse. So again, you had already been inside the space. You understand Botox from a deep level. And then you chose to walk away from it. So what I loved about your approach was you were very graceful. I've been waiting for this.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

This is just such powerful information for people to know what the options are. So I'm very grateful to you for bringing us together with this. And I hope that this makes it everywhere because everyone needs to hear this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

My whole shtick with this podcast is bringing harmony to different perspectives and bringing nuance and letting people in to discover for themselves. This episode is not here to tell you whether Botox is good or bad. That is up to you. This episode is here to ask have we been having the full conversation? And with that said, let's dive in. Welcome back to Conscious Conversations, a podcast where we bring all perspectives to the table so you can choose what feels true for you in health, wellness, and spirituality. Today's episode is one I've wanted to have for a very long time. We're going to be talking about one of beauty culture's biggest debates. And we're finally bringing two very different perspectives into one room on the subject of Botox. Botox has become one of the most normalized beauty treatments in the world. It's literally everywhere. We talk about it super casually. People are going to get it on their lunch break. It has become almost like getting your hair or getting your nails done. And at the same time, I've been seeing so much rising polarity around this conversation. In the traditional medical and aesthetic world, Botox is talked about as common, studied, routine, and something millions of people do, with what many say are actually a variety of health benefits. But in the functional medicine world, the holistic world, the wellness world, the world in which I work very closely with, the conversation is very different. People are talking about toxin overload, nervous system effects, autoimmune concerns, chronic illness correlation, and whether this is something we should even be putting in our bodies at all. So I kept asking myself, how are these two worlds so far apart in this conversation? How can one world say this is totally normal and safe when done correctly, and another world say this is way more dangerous than people realize? As a seeker of truth, this is exactly what I wanted: a more honest and nuanced conversation with both perspectives in one room. This episode is not here to tell you whether Botox is good or bad. That is up to you. This episode is here to ask have we been having the full conversation? And ultimately, it will be your call to discern whether Botox feels right or wrong for you after this. And with that said, let's dive in. So I'm so happy to have you both here. I'm really happy to be here too. This conversation has been over a year in the making. I think I reached out to you a long time ago. And then finally I found you and we spoke. And the reason it took me so long is because I really wanted to have harmony with the conversation, but I also really wanted to go there. And so I was like, okay, I need, I need two people that will like really do that. And so I'm I'm really excited to have you both here. So before we dive in, I I also would love to share like why I chose the both of you and what came up for me around that. So, Dr. M, I chose you because when I was thinking of like who is the highest credentialed person that knows the face, I thought of you, right? Because you're an oral maxiofacial surgeon, right? You went to dental school. You have trained surgically, cosmetically, like neck up is you.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

That's my world.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

So I was like, we gotta have that. And also I just felt like, yeah, when I brought it up to you, like you were just like, let's do it, let's go there.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

I think it's important to to discuss the different sides of what's going on. I was excited to meet Shelly and um fascinated by the facial yoga stuff. I have to be honest with you. I don't know much about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Oh, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

I'm completely fascinated by it. And um I think I use a little bit of that stuff in my in my practice, but I I'm here to learn too at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, yeah. And again, that's why I like your your openness, your integrity with everything. And yeah, I also was like, not many people will sit in a room when Botox is being questioned. And so I just love that about you. You were like, let's do it. Like, let's have the combo.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, I think it's an important conversation.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yeah, yeah. So that's why I chose you. And then Shelly, it took me a while. I was meeting with all different people, people who felt they were Botox injured, people like functional medicine um providers. And then when I talked to you, it was so refreshing because A, you had been an injector and a nurse. So again, you had already been inside the space. You understand Botox from a deep level. And then you chose to walk away from it. So what I loved about your approach was you were very graceful in your approach. And so I loved that. And I'm I'm definitely really excited to have you. I'm excited to dive into this. And I'm really excited to to meet you and hear all about your work too. Yeah, I think even when I reached out to you, you said something like, I've been waiting for this.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

I've been waiting for this. Yeah, I mean, we'll get into it, but yeah, I just think this could be such a powerful, this is just such powerful information for people to know what the options are and know that they it's not an either-or situation. This is something that can actually be married together and people can actually achieve their beauty goals based on their values. And so I think that this is I'm so I'm very grateful to you for bringing us together with this. And I hope that this makes it everywhere because it everyone needs to hear this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah. And like I said, I was just it, there were so many moments where I felt like it was gonna be like a war. And I, my whole shtick with this podcast is bringing harmony to different perspectives and bringing nuance and letting people in to discover for themselves. I'm excited to dive in. I'd love for you guys both to introduce yourself, your credentials, your background, and how would you describe your current stance on Botox?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Ladies first.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

So I um I started in the world of aesthetics. For anyone who doesn't know what an aesthetician is, we basically specialize in beauty and skincare. Um, so I started in aesthetics, then I became a nurse. I worked on uh in a very big pub uh private hospital in New York on a med surge floor. I worked in a stroke unit. I also worked uh in interventional radiology. At the same time I was doing that, I was also learning about how to become a nurse injector. Um and so I kind of did all three of those things for a while uh while also building my skincare line. And then, you know, things just had to sort of balance out. I ended up leaving injections. I was at some point addicted to Botox, but I had left it and I will never go back.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

I um I went to dental school. You mentioned that earlier, and then after dental school, I did a four-year residency in oral and maxillofacial surgery, where it's a hospital-based residency, and essentially we take care of all things from the clavicles up, and that could mean cancer, it can mean reconstructive surgery, whether it's corrective jaw surgery, it can mean temporal mandibular joint surgery, um uh dental implants, um, cosmetic surgery. So essentially my playground is the face, the head and neck. Um and then I did a fellowship after my residency, specifically just in facial cosmetic surgery. So I spent a year just facelift rhinoplasties, autoplastes, um, contouring, lasers, all that fun stuff. And funny enough, when I was in fellowship, I think I injected one person. It wasn't, and this is 2004 to 2005, it was just like starting to, it wasn't as mainstream as it is now. There were no medi spas, there were none of the nurse injectors, didn't even exist. The that part didn't exist. I came later. So um I then came back to uh New York, New Jersey, opened up my practice, I run a fellowship in cosmetic surgery. And my stance on Botox, and I'm using Botox as a kind of a my Kleenex. Um it there are different types now, but my stance on it is when done correctly, it's good. When overdone, it's ridiculous. And it's you know again, this is my world of you know, trying to mitigate an overdose of people wanting to come in and not understanding like, hey, my I have this little line that keeps moving. It's like okay, it's just a line, it's fine. It's not like the end of the world. So less is more, in my opinion. But there's a business side of it from the not only from the medical um, you know, the the aesthetic companies, right? They're trying to push it, and that's the narrative. The narrative is, you know, push and get more, and then you know, things have expanded. You know, first it was just glabella injections, now it's full face and neck, and and it's okay in certain places, but you know, again conservative.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah. Amazing. Well, before we dive into the meat and potatoes, um, I thought it would be helpful to share with the the viewers um my stance and my story with Botox. So when I was 27, um, I got Botox for the first time with Dr. M, and it wasn't for wrinkles. I don't know if you remember, but I had very pitted acne scars growing up. It was something I was super insecure about, and all my acne girlies know. And um, I had done all the lasers, I had done all the treatments, and I remember coming to you and I was like, what can I do? And you were like, for the fastest approach, we can do Botox. And it was a game changer. It was like automatically and I I was a different person. Like I felt so confident. And so that was really helpful. So I understand the understood the benefits aesthetically, and yeah, it was a game changer for me. And then at 33, I got randomly really ill. So about three years ago, just turned 36 and um, like mysteriously ill, and the traditional medicine world couldn't figure it out. And it's now what we know Lyme disease and mold illness. And basically, what the functional medicine world had said to me was stop Botox, pause completely because it's a toxin. And what we now know is toxins, you know, fill the bucket, and then Botox can be adding to that and can overfill the bucket. So just don't do it. And then I went down the rabbit hole and I was like, what? I've never even heard that before. So went down the rabbit hole, and and that was kind of you know my journey with it, where I was just like, I stopped for while I figured out what was going on. Um, so I've lived both sides of it, right? Like the benefits and then like the fear. So I'm I'm viewing and discerning and learning along with you of like where I stand, but that's my my experience and really where the origins of like this conversation came from for me. Do you remember that when I was okay? I was like, I have so many acting. So yeah, I get I get both perspectives for sure. Before the bigger cultural conversation, I want to break down what Botox actually is, like what's in it, what it's used for, etc. A lot of people, you know, hear Botox and they just think of wrinkles, but obviously there's also other uses for it. So um, Dr. M, we can we go to you. What in simple terms, what is Botox?

SPEAKER_00 12:41

So Botox or botulinum toxin essentially comes from a bacteria, Clostridium botulinum. And every and it's a natural, very potent, neurotoxic um kind of substance. If you know you take it in its natural form, it can actually kill you because it can stop your breathing. I mean, so there are toxic levels of this. I think what we need to do as far as like understanding on the safety profile of it is that these this toxin or where this comes from is a purified uh version of it. It's in like one tenth of a millionth of the strength of what that is. Um and then relay that to how it's used medically. And I and I think when you look at that, and then you say, okay, well, it comes from a bacteria. Well, there are other medications that we use. Statins come from bacteria. There is cancer medicine that comes from bacteria, there are antibiotics that come from bacteria. So this is not the only, so to speak, drug that we get from nature, right? And then we use it in human beings and in for for medicine. That being said, um the way it works is it blocks the release of a neurotransmitter, which is basically here's your nerve, here's your muscle, right? And when it when it's injected, it stops the release of the message. And it's a temporary release. It's not a full, like you'd get it once and it's done, as everyone knows. If you've ever had it done, it only lasts about three or four, you know, four, three or four weeks. Months, sorry. So it's a temporary blockade of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine that then stops that muscle from contracting. That's essentially how it works. It's temporary type thing. Um so there are other things about it that people I'm sure we'll get to it, but that's the way it works. Okay. In essence, where it comes from.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Okay. Beautiful. Um and then Yeah. And and then um what is it used for both uh cosmetically and medically?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah, so you know, in initially it wasn't even a cosmetic uh procedure. It was used more in medicine. It was used in ophthalmology for uh double vision or diplopia, uh, where the strabismus where the eyes were a little uh crooked, so they would inject into certain muscles and allow that muscle to relax and then straighten out straighten out the muscle so the so the eye would be straight. Um it's used in all sorts of neuromuscular spasticity in in kids over a certain age, um uh hyperhydrosis, which is um you know oversweating, hyper excessive sweating. Um it's now used in headaches, it's used in uh urinary issues, there's used in uh anal fissures, there's a bunch, a bunch of cholesterolasticity, a lot, a lot of medical, right, a lot of medical things that are used. Uh even hypersalivation. If someone has hypersalivation, you can inject it into the glands where we make saliva, and it'll reduce the amount of saliva being made, which again, it sounds silly, but it's very helpful for a patient in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

And then, Shelley, when you were injecting, were you mostly seeing cosmetic cases or are you seeing some of those medical cases?

SPEAKER_02 16:31

I was doing only cosmetic, and people would come to me for the medical, and I would just have to say, I'm sorry. Like I can't, I'm not trained in that. I'm not, you know, I'm not a doctor. I'm literally a cosmetic nurse injector. So we can do your forehead and maybe a little lip flip and something for the DAO muscles, and that's it. People would even come to me for a masseter, which is a fairly simple way of injecting, but I still was always very conservative because, you know, you you you just we have a we have an oath to not do harm. And so why would, you know, why put myself and that person in a position where I could possibly do harm? Because while it is like a when you're doing Botox cosmetically, it is such a small dose compared to these medical uses, like the amount that you're putting into the body for someone with cerebral palsy or post-stroke spasticity, way different. Way different. And so, and that is one of the ways when I was injecting that I would explain it to people because they would be concerned with the dose. And I would say, Do you realize it's such a small amount compared to what it's medically used for? But I was only seeing people for cosmetic reasons.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Okay. Um I want to get into the normalization of Botox. So, like I was saying, Botox has become like it's like nails, hair, Botox on the lunch break, right? Um, but at the end of the day, it's still something like literally you're injecting into your face. So not so casual. So I I wanted to ask either and both of you this. When do you think Botox became so normalized that we stopped treating it like a real medical or cosmetic like intervention?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Wow. Um I think social media played a huge I was gonna say the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Social media. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

I think once you started getting some of these actresses and really, you know, high power stars coming out and doing things and and being open about it, I think it kind of just like opened the floodgate on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

And you were on the Housewives of Jersey. I remember seeing you on that, right? That's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

I think it was and it was an experience. It was an experience. Wow. And you know, um I think it shouldn't be normalized. And I don't think that you know, putting something in your body should be something that's done very flippantly. Um but you know, y you can walk and not to name any like medis, but you can walk down a street and probably hit ten different medi spas without an appointment, do a quick intake form and say, I want to get shot up. And it could go south. It could go south really quick. But but the normalization of it, I believe, yeah probably happened like at the end of like normally like towards like the end of like 2000, right after right after 2008 where the economy hit like the pits. Yeah, and when we came back, it was like gangbusters, and then everyone was getting it. And then what we've noticed, or at least what I've noticed, is it was normally like the 30s and 40s, like old like 30, like late 30s, 40-year-olds were coming in and getting injected. It started to creep down, and now we're seeing you know, I I call them kids 20s.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

And it's kind of like we don't need to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

There's other ways to so for me, I I I don't have like an age limit, but I do have a responsibility to like say, This is young, you're young, yeah, let's talk about other things. And and we do, we push them towards more collagen stimulating and stuff that's gonna keep them young.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah. I remember you did that with me at 27. You're like, I mean, we there's other and I'm like, I need something.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, it's like so easy, right? It's a couple needles. Yeah. Three or four days later it kicks in, and it's like, wow, it's erased this what we what people consider the aging process, which is a line. Right? But when you were a kid, your face moved normal, right? You raised your eyebrows, you smiled, you did all sorts of facial movements, but you didn't look at yourself and say, Wow, I look old. Right? At a certain age. So is the movement or is there other things that are going on in the facial aging process that as me as a surgeon that I look at and say, okay, it's not so much the muscle as it is other things. Volume, laxity in ligaments, skin texture. That is way more important to me than muscle movement.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, I would agree. And there's also, I mean, just to kind of piggyback on that, there's so many different ways that you can work with the face. There are different layers of the face, they all work synergistically. And so I know that we'll get into this, but like the way I approach it now is just by basically working with all of those layers of the face so that they can function together, so that that muscle movement is not being compounded and and you're not seeing the wrinkles as deeply. You're still seeing the expression, but you're not seeing the wrinkles as deeply because you've been creating movement within the connective tissue and within the fascia. And um, and you know, to to talk a little bit more about the normalization of it, you know, you see like I I think I actually kind of blame like um, I mean, obviously social media, but like actual media, like editors, like you know, bringing bringing faces up and scrutinizing and talking. About what these people are doing for their luxury treatment. So then it becomes something that we all want because it's a luxury treatment, because it's what celebrities are doing, it's what all the rich people are doing. I mean, they did that with soy milk, right? They marketed soy milk as this like high-end thing to get everybody hooked on it. And now, you know, we know it's not necessarily the best thing for your body. And I think they basically did the same thing with Botox, yeah. Where they just made it so like this achievement that you can, I can afford Botox. I look at my forehead, it's so smooth. I have Botox now. And it it became more almost like a status thing than it did about what was going on with the face. That's what I saw as well. And then social media just like makes it worse because you, you know, look at my forehead, it's so smooth. And you know, people want to have that too. And then the, you know, the whole comparison with like other people, and it just kind of just spirals until everybody it just becomes a normal thing where you just walk into a a shop and you can literally get it because all you need is a license to order it, a course, a weekend course to you know, learn and get your certification, and then that's it. You can shoot people up with it.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Like Greek. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Because that kind of brings me into the next point, which is like skill and responsibility. So again, we'll we're gonna get into the cultural conversation, but and like the moral and ethics and all of that. But the more we normalize Botox, right, the easier it becomes, like I was saying, to forget that the face is not like a casual situation. But there's so many people injecting to your point, like med spas, nurse injectors, doctors, dentists, surgeons. So it I think there's a lot of options, and it feels confusing for people, like even who to trust, and because I think that's also adding to the normalization. Like there's so many places you could literally walk down the street and hit 10 spots. So, Dr. M, in your opinion, who is qualified to inject Botox and what kind of training could someone really have?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

So when I first came out of fellowship um as an oral and maxillofacial surgeon trained in facial cosmetic surgery, I could put people's faces back together from a gunshot wound. I could do blephyroplasts, I could do all sorts of things. There was, because I was the kind of the first one of my specialty that was specifically trained in aesthetics, the local, you know, plastic surgeons, ENT surgeons, dermatologists, they kind of got their you know, their their their hair went up a little bit and was like, Well, you're a dentist, you're not qualified. Um so the whole specialty thing um is you know, as long as you're licensed to treat that part of the face, I think is one thing, right? And that's like saying, well, you can go to a breast reconstructive surgeon who sits there and does cancer reconstruction, but he's licensed to do Botox. But if you go to him, you may or her, you may or may not get the response that you're looking for. It may not be natural, you may get a drow, a brow drop. So the question is, it's not just the it's not just the degree or your your specialty, it's your education, your experience, and your aesthetic. You're your your aesthetic of like what should be and what shouldn't be. You know, cosmetic surgery for me, and I say this all the time, every time I lecture or whatever I do, it should whisper. There's no reason why it needs to be like boom in your face, like I got my lips done, or I got my brows, and and they're like peaked up into your forehead. It's that's a ridiculous thing. So getting back to who should do it, um I think uh I think nurses should be able to do it. I I think you know, dentists, if they're qualified and they're trained correctly, I think should do it. I think any obviously any medical doctor who is trained and and and experienced in doing it, but the training is the most important part of it. So just because you have a license to kill doesn't mean you should be going out and doing whatever it is, you know. Um so for example, my I have a nurse injector in my practice. She watched me for three years. And I trained her for three years before I allowed her to touch a patient. She watched, I try, you know, we drew on her face, we talked about muscles, we talked about nerves, we talked about injecting this, what happens here. So, you know, the face is very complicated, and it seems like, well, it's just you know, a little toxin the forehead in between. Everything is there's a re there's an action and a reaction. So it was become, you know, and and when she finally started to inject her, you know, her her education, the three years with me doing, you know, learning, she basically caught on really quick. I mean, it was just repetition, repetition, repetition. So I think a weekend course is not, you know, that's ridiculous. But that's that you can do that. You know, you can do that. You can, you know, you can order, you can go to the and you go to the course where the the companies are at, and essentially they put a training course on, and at the end of the training course, like how many vials you want to order, and you're a new account, and that's the way it works. Um, so I think that there's there's something to be said about training and not just training on a weekend. Um but there are many different specialties who are exceptional, and and and there are people who are not great in each specialty. There's you know, it's not not one specialty is better than the other because there's good and bad in in all of them.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

So if that's yeah. Some people will say, like, oh, you should go to an injector because it's all they do is just inject, inject, inject.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

And then some people prefer that's a valid argument because you know they do. They see day in and day out. And my example of going to, you know, a reconstructive, you know, breast surgeon who probably hasn't picked up a needle in years, um probably he would say to you go to my nurse injector, you know, because they're better at it at that point. So the the I I know I know some nurse injectors who are like wizards, they're amazing. Um and then I know some surgeons who maybe not the best, yeah, because they're just not doing it all the time.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Right. So good point. And Shelly, as someone who was inside the industry, did you feel like the industry held the level of responsibility and informed consent that injections require?

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yes and no. Um, you know, with any sort of medical procedure, you have a consent form and you can put whatever you need to in the consent form to cover your butt. Um, but I I think that especially now that we're seeing at least, I don't know if it's more prevalent or if we're just seeing it more, more complications of Botox. I think that it is something that if I were to be in, you know, if I could put myself back um, you know, those years ago when I was injecting, I would be a lot more like in depth going through that consent form with people to make sure that they were making an informed decision. Because when I was, you know, starting out, I started at a weekend course and they were like, oh, you can inject. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, I don't feel comfortable doing that. And they're like, no, it's easy. You just here's the consent form. They give you a sample consent form with all the information you need. Um, and then they give you, you know, a map. Just follow the map. Just follow the map and you'll be fine. And I was still so I I just couldn't do it. I had to get, you know, private training. I had individual training, uh, you know, groups. I, you know, joined like a chat group where we were all like helping each other until I finally felt comfortable doing it. Um, I think that um one thing that is not on the consent form, and this is not really a medical thing, but there are, in my opinion, long-term downstream effects of continually doing Botox and injections in general. You know, I know we're not going to be talking about filler, but especially filler. Okay. We are going to get to like there are downstream negative effects that if you continue doing them over and over and really just becoming reliant on them. Uh, that is something that's not talked about in the consent form. That is something that's really not talked about in the treatment room because I don't think a lot of people recognize that that is something that can happen to people. It doesn't happen with everybody, but it can. Um, so do does the consent form cover your butt as an injector? Yeah, because you can put anything you need to in there. I mean, like you go get a medical procedure, they will put you could have a stroke and die. You're still signing it. Yes, I want this procedure because I need it to save my life, you know. But um I think that nowadays the consent is a lot more important for people to really scrutinize and go through and ask questions to their injector before they move, you know, move forward and get stuff done to their face.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

I love that you brought up the downstream effects because now we're gonna talk about the the toxin debate. So the biggest polarization that I see in the conversation of Botox is between the traditional medicine world and the functional medicine holistic world. In the functional medicine world, there is a lot of conversation around toxic load. You know, whether it's mold, lime, parasites, heavy metal, environmental toxins, inflammation, just all of it, a bucket filling of toxins in the body. So when I got sick, like I was saying, with lime and mold, one of the first things they said to me was stop Botox because it's a toxin. And then you have communities like Instagram accounts like NeverTalks. I think I sent you it today. So NeverTox is starting to pick up a lot of momentum where people share stories of what they believe has been Botox injuries, things like neurological symptoms, weakness, seizures, hair loss, ending up in wheelchairs, and feeling dismissed by their experience. So with all that said, um Dr. M, we'll start with you. When you hear the claim that Botox is a toxin and could contribute to toxic load, chronic illness, autoimmune issues, neurological symptoms, et cetera, what do you say?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Well, I go back to thinking on how this toxin works. And I think one of the things that maybe the functional medicine view is that when you inject to uh Botox or any of the neuromuscular blockers, when you inject it, you have a potential spread. So the spread is what fear is the fearing, right? And that spread, you know, let's say I'm injecting someone's crow's feet, but the spread was a little too much, and it got into levator, which is a muscle that opens your eye, and then someone gets what's called pis, where the eyelid is a little bit droopier. So the the potential or the fear is that it's going to spread. But to extrapolate that because these work at a neuromuscular junction, to extrapolate that, to say that there is something that's going on at a distant site from a from a medical standpoint, I don't grasp it. Um do I think the toxin, as we talked about earlier, is a high dose toxin? I don't. I don't. But you know, and I've been doing this for twenty something years and have I seen my fair share of like weirdness type of stuff? Yeah, I have. Um do I feel that I can contribute it to an injection? It's hard to do that sometimes. And I'm not saying anything's possible, right? I don't think the numbers are there. Like, you know, there's always like a bell curve, right? There's always like the outliers of what's going on. And to to to sit here and say absolutely not would be ridiculous. That's not the that's not the point. Um, but I would say for the major it's a very I mean Botox has been used for many, many years. For the majority of people, and I'm gonna say 80% because I'm gonna say ten are on either side of the bell curve. Um I I just think it's it's a pretty well s kind of uh studied type of um medication. I mean you have a higher risk of having an allergic reaction to an antibiotic than you do of having a a real like adverse effect. I'm not talking about a complication from an injection. You can get a bruise, you can get the dispersion to another muscle. Those are different things. But an actual problem down the road, I I don't I don't I don't see that, but that's you know, that that's just my experience too. You know, uh and I don't know any personally, I don't know any studies that can contribute um and say, well, this medic this long-term medication that you've been in for a decade of your life has created X, Y, and Z. Unless I just don't know. I haven't heard it.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Right. I haven't heard it. So what do you think? Same question. When you see Botox injury stories or you hear the holistic concerns about toxin load, I know it's not your main focal point and we'll get dive into that. But what do you feel about the conversation of toxin load?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

So I believe that there is, you know, such a thing as, you know, as you were to say, like filling the bucket with like toxins and toxins. Um I think there's definitely something to that. I feel like nowadays, especially, you know, we have like 5G, we have toxins in the food. We have, I mean, there's so many things that be could be compounding. And then you put like a toxin on top of that. So yes, when I see those stories, I have a lot of sympathy because I'm like, you're like one in a million that that happened to you. Like it's a very, very small number of people who that happens to, but it's possible. Yeah. Right. And we don't know who, why, like how. We don't know, but there I believe that there is some sort of either toxic overload happening or there's something where that injection just sets something off in your genes that like caused a reaction. Yeah. Um, but I I mean, I don't think that happens a lot. Yeah. I think it's a very, very small number. Yeah. I think it's becoming more spoken about. And so people believe that it's happening more, but I still think that it's a very, very small number of people. However, I, as a former injector, if someone is like asking me, like what, you know, what my stance is on Botox, I never use the toxin argument. I never use the toxin argument because it doesn't work. You can tell people a million times, don't drink alcohol, it's not good for you. They're at the bar like that night. I mean, you can't use the toxin argument to sway people because you're just trying to fear-monger them, first of all. You're trying to shame them and no one cares. If they want a smooth forehead and they don't want wrinkles around their eyes, they don't care. They're going to go get the toxin. And so my perspective is to talk about it more from okay, but what if I told you that this could actually uh prevent you from reaching your full beauty potential? Yeah. That's what gets people. When you, when they hear that this could actually with those downstream effects actually be affecting their long-term beauty, that now they're listening.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

And that's really, that's really what it is. Like, I mean, everything is a toxin. You binge watch on Netflix, that's a toxin. Your relationship could be toxic. Like there are so many other toxic things you're doing in your life. You want to say, like, that just Botox is the toxic thing you do. It's a small thing, but when it's compounded, it can make a difference. Yeah. But I mean, you can't, you, you can't just say, oh, you know, that person does Botox. They're toxic. Yeah. I mean, it it just doesn't work that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Yeah. I the even the word tox is kind of weird to me because, you know, yes, it comes from a bacteria that's a toxin, but again, it's so modified and it's so like it's not a we're not putting toxin, pure toxin into your body. Like I said before, there are antibiotics that we use that's a that comes from bacteria. Yeah. These are these are bacterial sources of medications that we use in our bodies. And and and you know, some of you would say, well, that's because they need it, right? That's a medical reason. This is an elective reason. And you know, but medicine is medicine. And I think that even just the word toxin, it almost makes it fear-mongering just by using toxin.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

This is a whole section because this has been very there were people that wanted to come on, like I said, that were like ready to go about the toxic.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

It's not about scaring in. It's not about saying, oh, we're gonna neuro, we're gonna tox you. Like I don't want to get toxed.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Like, also, as someone, as a female, if someone said, hey, this is a toxin, but I really want a smooth forehead, that argument isn't going to work on me. I'm still going to get it.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

I tell them I'm putting crazy glue on their forehead and they're gonna kill it because they're gonna be smooth. It doesn't like to be. What about the black box warning?

SPEAKER_01 39:43

What what does that actually mean? Because that's been coming up a lot on never talks accounts. Like it's a has a black box warning. It shouldn't go in the lot of medications have black boxes. So many medications have black box boxes.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

So basically what happens is they they they put out a drug, right? And then after they do post-release studies, and then if something pops up that didn't really pop up before, they put a black box warning on.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

I think what people need to understand, at least from my perspective, is that you your decision needs to be based off of not feeling afraid, right? Whether it's whether it's I'm afraid of wrinkles, so I'm I'm afraid of wrinkles, so I'm gonna go get Botox, or I'm afraid of the toxin, so I'm not going to get Botox. The decision should not be based out of fear. If you understand the face, if you understand the downstream effects of what could potentially happen with your face as you get older, and what is what the toxin and what fillers and what injections and you know, sometimes what even surgery is preventing you from discovering within yourself and within your own face, then you'll get people listening.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Then you'll get people to start thinking of beauty and themselves in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

You mentioned the downstream effects. Yeah. Right. So tell me more what you you were meaning by that, your opinion of downstream effects.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Um, so I think when you become reliant on injections, uh, a couple different things can happen. Um, when we're talking about just Botox specifically, and we can also bring filler into this as well, but when we're talking about Botox specifically, I can just speak from my own experience. I was starting to notice weird things, just you know, droopier brows, uh puffiness in the face, things that I just couldn't really explain. But I, you know, and that's just the nature of what Botox does, right? It relaxes the muscles. So it's going to affect the nearby muscles as well. And I don't think that Botox is for everyone. I think that some people just don't look good with it. I was one of those people. But I think some people can wear it really well and they're fine. Uh, I was noticing weird changes in my own face, and I was noticing other things like puffiness, and some of my clients and my patients were also kind of reporting the same thing. So I started noticing this pattern. And at first it was just kind of like, oh, that's weird. Let's do some lip drainage. But it kept coming up and it was coming up for me too. And so I just started connecting the dots more and digging a little bit deeper into what is actually happening to the rest of the face when you're injecting this stuff into your forehead, for example. And basically what happens is, you know, you're paralyzing the muscle. And so when you paralyze the muscle, the muscle's no longer moving. And our lymphatic system moves through uh muscular movement, uh, manual manipulation, and like breath and sweat. Okay, so when you stop that muscular movement, you're not gonna have as much pumping of the lymphatic fluid. And so that's where things like that puffiness come into play. And so I was starting to question like, okay, this is starting to look weird on me. And then I started to really kind of go deeper and just, you know, ask, like, what am I doing? You know, like what am I chasing? What am I, what am I really after here? Like, am I just, do I just want like a smooth forehead or do I want to like really love my face? You know, and it's just I it was a struggle. And at the same time that I was noticing that, you know, I was also, you know, as the injector, I was also just feeling like, where is this taking people? Right. And ultimately, I just wasn't fulfilled with leading people down a path where they were basically bypassing the opportunity to heal the very thing that put that wrinkle there on their face in the first place. And that's getting into like the more like spiritual aspect of it. Yeah, sorry. Went ahead. No, no, no, no. But like, you know, you also, I mean, to go back to the physicality of it, you know, like when you're the downstream effect is, you know, the muscle will relax and you're constantly injecting it every few months, it will eventually start to atrophy because you're not using it, right? You know that like if you break your leg. You know, a couple weeks later, that leg is going to look smaller because the muscle hasn't been pumping. So you get this atrophy of the muscle. At some point in your life, the Botox just doesn't work. I think it's like past age 70 or something. It just kind of stops working. And I experimented with that. And it kind of just doesn't take the same effect on older women.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yeah, I think it, I think the effects are different when you get like to an I would even say 70, 75. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Probably the age. And I was noticing that it just didn't, it just didn't work the same. So then I was just thinking, like, what is the plan for people when this starts to happen? When you start to have that droopy brow that's like pushing down, pushing down consistently, consistently, when you have like this puffiness that just perpetuates in the face, that's like, you know, could restricting the movement of the face. And um, you know, eventually the muscle like just atrophies. Like, is that leading to like the sagging skin?

SPEAKER_00 44:55

I don't know, but like can I comment on the atrophy part? Because I think it it's really important. I think the atrophy, you bring up a great point with like breaking a leg and getting a cash. You definitely, you know, I think your long your skeletal muscles of like working out, lifting, there's studies on showing you know your quadricep. If you have a strong quadricep, it actually makes your femur a lot stronger, which is really important for you know, especially for women getting older, you don't break a hip, you don't break your uh a femur. Um the if if you're again, I'm gonna go back, if you're doing this correctly, right? If you're injecting correctly and you're not being insane and injecting every month or every two months, the way the nerves are stimulating the facial muscles are you you blockade that and the main nerve, right, going into the muscle. And during that time, the nerve is really, really smart. So what it does, it starts to branch off new nerve endings to go beyond that blockage. So it's going to come in and it's going to start to try to stimulate that muscle, and then around the same time, the neuromuscular block, hey, Botox, well, then it doesn't work anymore. So then these nerves are coming back. You need to give the muscles some time to get stimulated. Definitely, if someone is going to treat and not have any movement on their face for years and years and years, you're gonna atrophy. Of course you are, but that's not the way this stuff was meant to be.

unknown 46:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

As far as the sagging and the drooping of the brows, sometimes if you put too much in the forehead, you're dropping brows. But again, it's a much more complex thing that the dropping in the hollowness and the volume and all, it's much more complex than just muscle. Aging process is way complicated. There's there's facial bones that are atrophying. Your your eye sockets are getting bigger as we age, your chin projection actually gets you know retruded. There are facial bone changes that we see over time that tend to add to the aging process. It's not unfortunately, or fortunately, it's not just the muscle, you know, thank God, um, but there are ligaments, there are muscle, there's fat pockets that are very, it's very complex in the in in the in the reason why someone's brow would be dropping.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Yeah, I think it's also like, for example, my background is Asian. And so I notice that in a lot of my Asian clients or people with just like a deeper set eye or just puppy, it's very difficult to inject because even the little bit of a droop, just like a like half of a millimeter, it's very noticeable. And then you get that heavy brown look. And so no matter what I did, I would eject super high. I would inject that like half of you know the normal amount of dose. It always did it to me and my sisters. Like it's just Asian eyes, just it just, it's very difficult to treat. Um, but you know, again, to your point, I think if it's done well and if it's done spaced out and if it's done intelligently, it can work really well for people. It's when people become reliant on it that it becomes an issue physically and spiritually. That is when it really becomes the issue.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

And this is where we arrived in the next section because this is this is like the most beautiful point. It's like I keep saying this, but like I literally thought we were gonna have the conversation of toxins versus no toxins, because it's just all people are pumping. Bulling. And it's booming. And you you really brought me to this perspective of like, it's so much deeper than that. What's going on? It's so much deeper. It's so much deeper. And so I think that this whole fear-monging thing has gotten really out of control. It was to the point where I was not eating out at restaurants, I wasn't touching receipts, I wasn't doing anything because of the fear being pumped by the holistic. I stopped getting my hair dyed. Thank God I'm back. But like I was going to the organic-only salons and it just became a prison. And moving into the next part, because I love what you said about it, really is not about the toxin conversation. It's so much deeper and it's so much more profound. And this is this is really like what I think is so beautiful about what you brought to the table, which is, you know, the question of like, I felt like your concern was much deeper than toxins. It was like almost like the way I would articulate it is like, what are women really searching for when they are trying to defy aging?

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Well, I think when people go to get an injection or a procedure, they're wanting to, you know, and consciously, like they're going to make that appointment to change something about their appearance. But I think what they actually want is to just feel at home in their own skin. That's really what they want. They just want to feel confident in who they are. No one really wants to go get injections. They're using it so that they can feel, you know, confident in themselves, right? No one's like, I can't wait to go inject my face. And I mean, like maybe maybe on some level they are, but I don't think any, I think some women look at other women who don't have injections, but they but they look healthy and they look radiant and they look smooth and they think, I want to be like that, but I can't, so I have to go get the injection, right? And so I just think that, you know, you use the injections to fix a wrinkle, but you're not fixing the underlying issues of why that wrinkle is there in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

From a spiritual and moral lens, why do you no longer administer Botox and no longer recommend it?

SPEAKER_02 50:45

It it got to the point where I was just no longer fulfilled for myself, getting in the injun getting the injections for myself. I did not feel I loved my smooth forehead, but I did not love myself. It it didn't help that. It gave me short-term confidence where I would be like, my my forehead is smooth. I feel great. It was sort of a status thing, like I can afford the Botox, you know, I have it. But it didn't actually make me feel confident. I still looked at other women who were moving through life so radiantly and they still had wrinkles, but they just had this light about them that I was envious of, that I wanted. And so I sort of just started to reverse engineer that. Like, how can I get that? It's injections are not the answer. And I was becoming dependent on it too. It was like a drug. Like I would panic when I, you know, when my forehead would start to move, like, oh, you know, people are gonna see that I'm ugly or whatever. Ugliness is just when you feel ugly, you have just become disconnected from yourself. That's really all it is, is that you have started comparing yourself with other people and you start, you start like going down this rabbit hole of like, I need this and I need that, rather than like, who am I? What is it that I truly want in this lifetime? And so I as I kind of said before, it just got to the point where I was also not fulfilled in injecting people because I was perpetuating them down this path that enabled them to bypass the opportunity for them to actually heal. And that was one of my struggles working in the hospital too, as a nurse. Uh, obviously, I'm so grateful for modern medicine and Western medicine. It can really save lives. And it's amazing what, you know, I mean, I had a C-section after six days of labor. I needed it, you know. Like, I mean, like you need, we need modern medicine. We need Western medicine. But I think that the way that we treat people in a hospital does is not conducive with healing. And my whole ethos, my mission has always been to help bring healing to people. And so it didn't, it didn't mesh well. And it kind of, I saw that when I was injecting too, is that I was fixing someone's insecurity and they were becoming dependent on me. And that energy just didn't sit well with me. And I what I really wanted was for people to feel empowered and to feel confident in their own skin. And so I just did like a total shift where I just was like, this is I I can't in in good faith do this to people anymore. I can't perpetuate this and enable this uh dependency uh for them anymore. And you know, they're not they seem happy on the outside, but they they keep coming back. They keep wanting my help, they keep needing it. I want to enable you to do this yourself. And so that's when I shifted to learning all about the face, how the muscles actually tell the bones to stay stronger and more lifted, how the fascia, it's not like long bones.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

So they're a little bit different on the face. There's not the they don't have that loading effect that long bone long muscles have on bones. So if you were to smile excessively and you're not gonna like grow your cheekbone. It doesn't have that type of mass building.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

I've actually seen with myself that it's worked very well. And I also I just had a conversation with uh an airway dentist.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

And we're gonna talk about it. Okay, and we talked about it. But that's also talking, that's also talking about the growth of kids. That's different when you have airway issues and you have your skeletal, facial skeletal is is still in the growth phase, and that's where orthodontists can like put headgears on and make the jaws grow. But at a certain time where we become adults and the bones are solid, we we just it's it's just not that it's it's not that it doesn't exist, it exists in certain things, like masseter muscles, like you can get a strong jaw from a masseter muscle, but that's because it's from bone to bone, right? Skin, uh facial expression muscles are from bone to skin. So the more you animate, it's gonna be more conducive to lines. Not saying that lines are bad, it just doesn't have that loading effect like a quad does.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

It may not have the same loading effect that it does with the body, but I have noticed with myself, with um a lot of the people who take my courses and are in my program, like they also notice the same thing. When you build the muscle, you're building volume and you know, in the face, new scaffolding in a way, right? Because I think we can all agree that muscles respond to exercise. Um and there is some kind, even if it's just a little bit, there is a little bit of that bone structure. I I think that what people don't realize is that the the muscles in the fascia are actually what hold the bones up and it's not the other way around. Like if you lost all tone in your leg muscles, you would fall, right? It's your it's the tone in your muscles. It's like keeping everything lifted. And then I really think that the health of the fascia is key to all of this.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Yeah, I think I think you're hitting on some very like important like concepts. I think muscle, muscle tone is very good, and I think fascia is very important. Uh these are the lay, by the way, for fat fascia, the layers between different layers of your skin, between muscles, kind of what envelops the muscle. And it's important to have healthy fascia. Um I just think again from a from a from an anatomical and a physiological standpoint, I think that the muscles, the the way the muscles are made in the face, they're not these like huge lifting muscles. Like I can't go, I can't go to the gym on my face and get huge zygomatic uh major muscles.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

It just no, it's not gonna it's not gonna work the same as like a bicep. I totally agree.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

Mastodor is the only master and the temples, the masticating muscles are a little bit along that line because if you chew gum all the time, your mouth your jaw muscles are gonna get like huge. Um if you're a clencher, your jaw muscles are gonna get fake. But but I think I you're you're hitting on some really important things. I I just don't I don't know if if it's a clinically now, you're saying you saw it in yourself, and I I'm you're gorgeous, so you have nothing to worry about, but I I just don't see it in my in my world where I see that type of stimulation of of bone. If anything, we see retraction of bone.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

So that so that's that's where I would respectfully disagree. Is that, you know, when I was also learning how to how to inject, that was what I was told as well. Like there, you know, this is how the face ages, the bones um start to shift, they start to fall, they uh the jawline starts to recede. And I fully believe that. Like, and that's why I I, you know, wanted to learn injection because I wanted to help people feel, you know, empowered in their face. But um from what I have learned, from what I have studied, from what uh from the from the face exercise and face yoga world, what we understand and how we understand the face is that building the muscle helps to uh, you know, you're building the the uh the weak muscles because we have muscles that are overworked, and then we have muscles that are underused. And so face yoga is really a combination of relaxing muscles that have become super, you know, overworked intense, and then exercising muscles that have become weak that don't have enough, you know, natural tone because we or maybe not smiling all day long. Um and then uh and then the the to pull to tie in that piece with the fascia again, the fascia is so important because it does, you know, sort of encapsulate like the skin, the bone, like ligaments, everything. And your fascia is very intelligent and your and your fascia also is directly connected with your nervous system. And and so now we're gonna get into like sort of the, you know, sort of how like the emotional aspect of this ties in. I know you had a question on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

I wanna um get your POV on what you were saying. The reality is women kept coming back and like you you walked away because you felt like you weren't actually solving the deeper wound that was happening. Right. And so, Dr. M, I'm curious for you, like, do you see desperation, insecurity, or distorted self-perception show up in how people ask for treatments?

SPEAKER_00 59:04

I see that every day. There's no doubt about it. I mean, there's there's there's insecurities that, you know, men and women come in and you know, they're they're looking for an answer to give them a boost in their step. I spend a lot of time, a lot of time with patients explaining to them none of this stuff is gonna make you happy. I spend I I spend about this much time on the actual procedure, and then the rest of what I do in my consultations is sitting around, getting to know the person who I'm injecting, and explaining to them like this is I I don't like to use a the word band-aid because it's not necessarily like that. Because that ins that that means that there's you know that this I'm just putting a band-aid on something that's really, you know, bad. But but from my from a knowing the person and and you know, having happiness, we're talking about happiness. I've had some of my best results on the most unhappy people. And I've had terrible results, and they were happier than a pig and poop. So again, happiness is all it's all coming from within. I think you have to be uh good inside first, and then the rest of it kind of works out, you know, another way. But I don't give I don't I don't treat people because I'm looking to make them happy inside. That's not it's not you know, they may get a little bit more confident, but happiness is a whole different level of, you know, people are happy, but they are they happy, happy. I don't know. I don't know. It's different. It's but I'm not but I'm also not a therapist.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

You know, I'm not trying, I'm not trying to dive into certain things that they need to work out. I mean, I do because that's the nature of what I do, but you know, if they need to work certain things out for to be happy, that has to be done by professionals who deal with that, you know. Yeah. Um so but I would say a lot of people who come in to see me are, you know, they have everyone's got issues. We all have issues. I have issues, you know. And you know, it's just the way the world is, you know. Yeah. So it's definitely not something I would say, oh, this is gonna take care of all your concerns.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Never.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Do you do you guys think Botox can be empowering from for one woman and disempowering for another, depending on the energy behind the choice? Yes, 100%. I think if you still do believe it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

Yeah, if it's based out of fear, then it kind of like you said, I don't think that any amount of injection is gonna make someone happy. I think that you can use stuff like Botox and filler as a springboard to kind of get you to a point where, okay, now I feel good in my face. Now let's, now that that's, you know, I'm good right now. I know I can't be reliant on this forever because I know of like the lymphatic, you know, effect of that and also the fact that this is not at all working towards uh creating a healthy functioning face. It's doing nothing for the muscles or the fascia. It's so I know that this is temporary. Now let me work on me. And I think that's where my work and your work can actually be married together. Because if people are doing some of these, you know, at-home rituals, which is what I uh take people through now, it's like, you know, five to 20 minutes of spending time with yourself, touching your face, touching your skin, getting to know yourself, just being in presence with yourself and using your hands and or using tools or moving your face in a certain way that releases stress, that helps you reach those emotions or at least bring them to the surface so that they can be dealt with. Because when you stuff those emotions down, deep down, they they sit inside the nervous system. They eventually settle within the fascia. Your nervous system is responsible for how your muscles move. So it's really not going anywhere, even if you freeze it, though it's still living inside of your body. So you use something like these facial rituals, like how to massage your face. You can release some of the tension and the stress that you're holding in your face. It can relax the muscles so they don't look as tense. Uh, you can work with the fascia, which helps to hydrate the skin from the inside out. It also helps to prevent any tugging or pulling because we know fascia is a very sticky substance that when it becomes stiff or dehydrated, it can start to pull on certain things or even lead to deeper creases because that's basically what wrinkles are. It's the repetitive movement of the muscles, the fascia becomes sticky, it starts to hold the skin in that tight wrinkle. So you release that. You naturally start to work towards building function and health in your face. You use the injections to give you a little boost, give you a little boost here and there. You don't become reliant on it, you don't do it all the time. That way you don't have to worry about toxic overload. You don't have to worry that all of my beauty is being outsourced to another person. You're finding the confidence within yourself. And maybe you use a little injection here or there, you know, just to get you to springboard you to, you know, a point where you're like, really like, I feel, you know, super empowered, but I've been doing it all on my own. And what I've found that has happened is that when women start doing, you know, working on themselves, they start touching their face, they start getting to know their face, they start breaking up the tension and really understanding how their face moves, they even get to a point where they don't need the injection anymore because we've softened our face through softening ourselves. And they also get to the point where they're no longer lured by the intrigue of injections. They're no longer being pulled by that anymore. It no longer has a hold on them. And they get to the point where they no longer want it anymore. And that's what has happened with me. I know that I have wrinkles, sure, you know, but I am totally at peace with them. I love them. They tell the story of my life. They are the calligraphy of my soul. They show depth, not decline. And I just feel like if we got more women to reshape how they think about beauty and reshape how they think about aging, that they can be really empowered. And it costs them nothing but learning the but the time it takes to learn some of these poses. And then once in a while you go get a little lift, you go get a little, you know, you go get a little, you know, frozen if if that still speaks to you. Yeah. But there's a way that these two things can work together where you actually get happy patients. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Yeah, I I think what you're you're definitely touching upon a much more spiritual in like your soul and um almost like a yeah, it's it's it's really nice. And you're and you're right. I think that you know, if you're the all the stuff that you're talking about is going to make you more whole and happier inside. Most people don't have that um focus to do what you're saying. I'm not saying they can't. Right. They all can. Men, women, we all can do it. It takes um that's it's a choice.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

It's a choice and you have to dedicate yourself to it. It's really what it's called. It's dedication.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:19

And you can fall off once in a while and get back on it. And I think, you know, again from from my perspective, because I deal with a lot of like surgical patients and and and women who are, you know, let's just say a little bit older, I I think they can feel what you're talking about, but then they also have this added thing of like, I have like advanced facial aging. There's I can massage and yoga and do all that, but I got this neck here. Yes, and I got this jowl.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:49

It gets to a point where if you haven't been doing the work and you reach a certain age, it does become it's I mean, you can't. Like that is the limitation of these facial exercises, is that young you have to start young. You have to, you don't have to do it every day, but you do have to have a dedicated practice. And it, you know, and why not? Like it's a moving meditation, it's a way of regulating the nervous system and slowing down at the same time you're taking care of your face. Why not? But I agree. You get to a certain age where these things have settled into the face, you know, the structures have changed, it becomes a lot more difficult. But like if someone were like 60 and they they discovered, you know, uh face yoga and face exercise, and they're like, I really believe in this, I want to do it. What I would say to them is uh, you know, start your practice, but it's not gonna do what you, you know, what your 20-year-old self, you're not gonna see the same results as your 20-year-old self would be. So if you're considering a facelift, you go get the facelift. Okay. You go, you go and you lift the face. Keep in mind that it's purely cosmetic, right? It's not doing anything for the muscle tone. It's not doing anything for releasing any of the tension in the fascia. So you use that again as a springboard and then you start working on your face. You've gotten your face to the point where you're like, okay, I'm happy where it is. Now you can start working with your face and keep it healthy and maintain the results. And that's the key thing is that people can use these exercises and these modalities to maintain the result. And I think it's really important because after a surgical procedure, the fascia and the skin, it starts to tighten around where those uh uh, you know, surgical incisions are. It starts to become fibrotic. Fibrosis is really what leads to a lot of the sagging because the tissue is no longer healthy and alive. You start incorporating some of these practices with your surgical procedure, you're gonna see better results. It's gonna last longer.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

We've actually uh employed a lymphatic drainage masseuse.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

After the surgical, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

Day one. They come in for post-op day one, they start getting some light massaging, light lymphatic drainage. It's completely changed post-op recovery, and then they continue on. They just stay on and they continue doing massages with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

And how empowering do they feel? Because they feel great. Yeah, they feel amazing because they because they feel like they're participating. They're part of the process. Yeah. And and then that feels very empowering for them. And and that light that lives inside you when you feel like look at what I've done for myself, it's a completely different feeling than I went and ha and transacted this guy to, you know, do something for my face. And yeah, I mean, it's a different energy, it's a different way of moving through life.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

It's completely different, but but synergistically at the same time, they can work together.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:27

They can work together very well.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

So I mean, the spiritual part, yeah, in a perfect world, would everybody be thinking about this in that way? It would be great. But yeah, I do feel like it is a choice.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:40

And if it was more normalized, that there are choices and that these things could be I think people just need to know that there's more than just injections because they they come to rely on it and they think that's the only way. And I think people just need to know that you have options here and you need to know the limitations of both. You need to know what this can and can't do, but you also need to know that like just relying on this is not the is not the answer either. So you know, I I'm that's why I'm really excited to have this conversation because I feel like people need to know that we need to bring awareness so that people can feel the empowerment at the same time, do things for their beauty regimen that's aligned with their values and their goals.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

I never even heard of facial yoga until I got asked to do this.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

And then I went into a deep dive. Then I did a deep dive. Yeah. And then a deep dive, and I was like, holy cow.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

It's insane. What do you guys think is at the root of why society has such a hard time with aging? Because that's the real conversation. Like that's like the real meat and potatoes of my respect.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:41

Society now. This has been since the beginning of time. Yeah. The Egyptians were using makeup and they were doing tattoos and putting fake teeth with bones together.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

Youth and beauty is a currency, no matter for sure. It's a currency. So people want to hold on to that. I think that we are also, as a society, uh, you know, and our are just culture and really just humanity, uh aging is associated with dying.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

Right. And so in a way, we are, it's like we start to see that cycle start to turn and we start to feel like, oh, we're going down that path now where we're, you know, we're going towards that, right? But what people need to understand is that everything has a life cycle. Everything has to go through a life cycle. And I think people are afraid of death. And I think when people just kind of zoom out, and and you do have to have some kind of spiritual awareness to really see it this way. But if you if you start to recognize that the point of life is not to just be beautiful, when you realize that the point of life, point of life is to live, to laugh, to learn, to evolve, to grow, it it changes your perspective. It changes how you view things. Earth's cool. And yeah, right. And so it it's, and that's exactly what it is. It's like our ultimate aim is to recognize our divine self through healing our human experience. And so that's why we have to have some of these deep-seated emotions. These are like guides to the depth of our soul where we can learn lessons, integrate their wisdom. And so that's that's another reason why I kind of stepped away, is that I felt like it was just erasing that for people and enabling people to just bypass rather than really understanding who they are, what they want out of this lifetime. For me, that was peace and just being comfortable in my own skin. And so when I, once I recognized that, and once I really decided to like call in my divine self to like be the guide for me and sort of dictate, like, you know, like how I manage my human experience of my fears and my insecurities and my anxiety, which I still have, it it completely changed the conversation. And so now I look at aging as like I'm excited to age. I'm excited to get to that point. I I can't wait to be a wrinkly old woman and like comfort myself and be like, look at all that you did, look at all that you learned, look at how much you've grown, like, look at the relationships that you have. Like you built this. And once you really see like your own, like when you see yourself in that divine light and you can recognize it, nothing can harm you, nothing can break you, nothing can penetrate you, no wrinkle can upset you. It just doesn't happen anymore when you can kind of get to that point. And so I mean, that's another reason why I'm so passionate is because I see women tearing themselves apart over these wrinkles. And first of all, I mean, I know this is not where this conversation was meant to go, but wrinkles are like not what age you at all. I mean, there's like a whole other side of that. I mean, in my opinion, especially from your perspective, I think facial structure is way more important than wrinkles. Like the way a person's face is is, you know, constructed and the and the shape, and that is way more, you know, it it it indicates so much more about someone's age than just wrinkles. Someone could, you know, have a face full of wrinkles, but if their structure is good, they I mean, they don't look as old, you know, let's be honest. But it's also just the energy. It's like the frequency that you hold that really is what I think what people are after. Yeah. And I think that when, you know, people are afraid of aging and they're afraid of the decline, but they don't realize the opportunity that they have with that to grow and to evolve internally.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:31

Yeah. And uh there's always ayahuasca if you haven't tapped into all this. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. I mean that's I think at the deepest core of that. And I'm sure you would hope people would do that inner work too.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:45

I I don't I don't there's there's you can't argue having a spirituality and a deeper meaning of life, and I think those are all important, you know, aspects. Everyone has different levels of what they can even go there. You know, some people don't even get it, they they're they're like not there. Yeah. And it'd be nice to see more people there.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

Yeah, I think people are just kind of afraid of themselves. Yeah, and we are going through what my last interview was about the Great Awakening that's happening right now with humanity, with with consciousness. It's a lot of what my mission is here to bring this awareness and the duality of me as I live in both worlds. You know, I sat with a lot of plot medicine and I have also, you know, and there's room for that. And then you can have you can have it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

Yeah, you can't you're not you shouldn't be defined by one thing or the other. Yeah. You know, just because um, you know, I I inject doesn't mean I'm not spiritual. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Right. Exactly. I think that's, you know, for me, that's what this conversation was about is awareness, options, looking deeper, thinking deeper, choosing, like I would say, like in a nutshell, what I got from this as the takeaway that I hope, you know, the viewers hear is choose from love, not from fear. And really that's yeah, the most important thing I I think in this conversation, I would say. Um what do you guys both hope women take away from this conversation? I guess men too, if you're out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:14

I think I think that we haven't really been fully taught or guided in how to age well uh up until like very recently. I don't even think it's spread um, you know, a lot. And I hope that my hope is that especially women, because that's really the target. I mean men too, but I think I hope that women will take away from this that they start to look at not just what's available and and what you know they can they can just, you know, go and like transact someone to to do for them, but really look at what it is that they want for themselves and what they want out of life. And I think once you can answer that question, then you can answer the next question, which is so is this what I choose for myself? Because if your if your answer is, I want to look ageless and beautiful and this is and I will do anything to have that, and I, you know, and I just want to feel my like my energy, then you need to, you know, maybe you do need to go down the route of of getting injections or maybe a surgical procedure. But if you're deep down, I think if your mission is just to be at peace with yourself, that's not gonna do it. It it's not. And so I think people I would hope that women take from this conversation that you do have options and there's a way to be guided in how to age beautifully and gracefully, and it's not just following the formula that we've been told the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:47

I would like for the women and men who are watching to take away from this that there are things that you can do to give you that wholeness and that spirituality and knowing what you want out of life. But it's okay if you do want your neck lifted or if you want your eyes to be not so it's okay to do that too. There is no judgment. There should be no judgment either way. Yeah. If you choose this is all about choice, right? Elective means it's a choice. So if you choose to want to do something that to make yourself look better, maybe you've already gotten to the where you're talking about and you've found your purpose and you've found your your your your your rock and the meaning of life, yet you look in the mirror and you're like, oh, this neck is killing me. I I can't look at it. I feel great, but I don't want to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:38

But if I could just fix this one thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:40

Yeah. And and maybe if you maybe if you ascend to the highest level of you know, God, maybe that won't bother you. Yeah. But as mere mortal humans, yeah, that you know, we have in those insecurities. So even though you found your happiness and you found your purpose and all of that, it's okay to have a procedure.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:01

100%. Well, where can the people find you if they're interested in both of your services? A little bit about beauty shamans and where people can find you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:10

So uh beautyshamans.com is my main website. I have um uh through that portal, we're actually going through a rebrand right now, but we have the Skin Within Studio, which is where I teach and I guide people through ways to move and touch their face that empowers them. Um, and we'd learn, you know, things like face yoga, facial exercise, fascia release, lymphatic drainage, reflexology, nervous system reset, all that type of stuff so that they have sort of a moving meditation uh ritual that they can do daily that just kind of brings them grounded, it brings them back to their center and helps them to ground their energy and really just discover the root of you know why things are changing on their face. And then we also have uh skincare tools, uh, a lot of resources on my website. And then you can find me on Instagram at Beauty Shamans where I do a lot of just free educational videos where I show people how to move and touch their face. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

Uh I have two offices located in New York City on 9th between university and 5th, and then also in Shrewsbury, New Jersey. It's called Advanced Facial Surgery. Um on Instagram, I'm Dr. Mattelakakis. Some people call me bearded surgeon, as you can tell. Um and this has been really enlightening to me, and I will tell you that I'm going to incorporate or I'm gonna ask you to help me incorporate a post-surgical, maybe even pre-surgical, um program for patients who are thinking about doing surgery or even having surgery and what they can do to be a part of that treatment plan. I think that's I think it's for me, I've always been like outside the box in in the sense of like treatments and stuff like that. So I think that this is right down my right down my alley.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:00

I would love to. That would be so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:03

Work together would be great.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:05

And this is why I do what I do. I love to bridge perspectives and help people think deeper and show people that it's okay to be all and everything, the spiritual and into aesthetics. If you are looking for what is next for your mental health, physical health, spiritual health, that is exactly what I do with Conscious Concierge. Help you figure out who is the next person, provider, retreat, medicine, experience. If you are feeling just lost in the sauce in the wellness and healing world. And um, yeah, you can catch us on conscious conversations for these thought-provoking conversations. Thank you guys for really thanks so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:44

Great to meet you.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:45

So amazing to meet you. This was so fun. This was so great. I think it's really like we finally got to the momentum where it like all.