Holiday Chaos & Healing Body Image

Inspired by the outcry around "Wicked for Good," Cat and Jayenna discuss their own body journeys. Around 80% of women report being dissatisfied with their bodies and tens of millions of women will suffer from a clinically significant eating disorder in their life. Cat and Jayenna share some of the body insecurities they have faced, along with tools they have used to work through the negative self talk. You do not have to be at war with your body. It is a journey but peace is possible.

#wicked #freewoman #bodyimage #bodypositivity #menopause 

https://www.thefreewomanpodcast.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Hello, free woman. Hi. Welcome to our podcast. It's always a weird start for us every time we start. We're like, how do we say hello to the world?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Well, we are just kind of weird people. So if we were in person, it would probably be a similar level of awkwardness.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

It's pretty similar to how we sound like.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

How do we end talk to each other?

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Well, welcome to our Free Woman Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

We are so happy that you're here and we are happy to be here too, because I guess it means we're not dead. Yeah. Or violently ill.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Well, once again, we have been sick.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Jayana got it a little um harder this time than I did. I just needed a whole day of doing nothing and sleeping, and I recovered.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Well, it's just I had that struggle that moms often face where you feel it coming on, and I just remember looking at my bed with this like longing. I'm like, I'm like, you know what I need is I just need to lay in that bed all day and not get out. But it was the day before Thanksgiving. So what did I have to do? I had to cook all day.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

I know, and you were a champion. You powered through. I didn't even know you were sick. You had so much energy, and I'm like, oh my god, we're prepping another meal.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Well, you know how you just get to this place in your brain where you're like, I gotta do it, and I can't stop because if I let myself sit down, I will just not get up.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

And you didn't stop, and I I felt compelled to stand up and come help you. I was like, oh my god, we can't rest yet.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

She's still going. Well, we were hosting, we had a friend over, and we had we both had our kids, and it just was a lot of people and just the two of us cooking. And we wanted to make everything fresh, and it was delicious.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

The only thing we didn't do fresh was the desserts, and I'm glad we're gonna have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I'm so glad that we surrendered on that one, and we just got store-made pies.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Well, the pie we got was delicious, it was it was an apple cranberry pie, and then the other one was like this chocolate cream pie that's like frozen, and everybody was happy.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

And I was honestly, the kids liked it better than if we had made something fresh because that's where their taste buds are at. That's the sophistication level of our children's.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

They're teenagers, they don't like pumpkin pie anymore.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

No, I if I like you know, bend over backwards to make something really fancy, they're like, what's this?

SPEAKER_02 2:58

I I know poking at them.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

They would be thrilled if we just gave them a box of fruit roll-ups.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

I know. Like, thank you. Oh my gosh, the best Thanksgiving ever. They would be so thrilled.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

They're like, please do this every Thanksgiving. So, yes, we had Thanksgiving this week. I assume that I mean, if you're listening to this in real time, then you also had Thanksgiving this past week. Yeah, hopefully you survived it. Um, we the holidays can be pretty rough, they can, especially Thanksgiving, because that's when I feel like even more so than Christmas, we see family members that we often choose not to see otherwise. I know.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Well, and that's been different for us because um I think this was my third Thanksgiving without my family. I went no contact a few years ago. It's been that long. Yeah, it has, I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Oh my god. I know, wow, right? It's like um in AA when you've been sober for so many months, it's like you should get your your third Thanksgiving badge. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

I should. And then this was your Thanksgiving where you decided to not join with your family.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

My family doesn't do something every year. I mean, I think the ones that live by each other often do, but this was the first family event that I have bowed out of. Um I just had this feeling like that I just needed to take a break. You know how sometimes you just need for some space from a relationship because it's been bringing a lot of angst into your life, and you're like, I just kind of need some space. I need to see how I feel. See how I feel and process things, and I just feel like this would it's kind of an intuitive emotional thing where it just rises up in you, and you're like, I need to breathe, I need to think about this, not by you.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

And it's not an easy choice either.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Yeah, it was the first time my family had ever experienced someone just kind of uh verbalizing that need in a very direct way and then not coming. And so it's been an emotional couple of months uh because they've been reaching out and there's been kind of this feeling of letting people down, and but then all day on Thanksgiving, it was just so beautiful. Our kid everyone was getting along so well, the kids were hanging out, like not like the moms were guilting the kids to come hang out, they wanted to hang out, they just were, they were just around and they were picking out Christmas movies to put on.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

My son was just sitting at the counter talking to us as we were cooking, and I I just was like, oh wow, this is what is this? I know, and I'm I'm trying to now like show the excitement.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

And so usually they are holed up in their caves with their electronics and their online friends, but they didn't. They wanted to hang out with them. We're upstairs hanging on the couch.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

They were picking movies out and having a few. And you and I just both had this warm glowy thing. And we just kept looking at each other, like, oh my god, look at this. It's all the things we're gonna do. Don't let them know how excited we are, and they'll like hide again. Yeah, don't don't scare them, don't scare them away. Don't say anything. But it was, it was a really beautiful Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Um and the whole time I was just like, I am so glad I chose this. I it's like we say on this podcast all the time. I am so glad I chose peace. Yeah. And I almost feel guilty because I'm like, oh, I didn't miss I didn't miss my family.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

I didn't miss my family either. I didn't even think about them. Family of choice is a thing. It is a family of choice, and you know, it's helping me to be excited for the holidays again. Oh, excited is maybe too big of a word. It's helping me to melt away the bitterness in my heart.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

To keep joking, the cat's grinch heart is growing. I really don't, it's like the shriveled up thing that's expanding.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yeah, it's been well the holidays have been really hard with um figuring out my family and the toxic dynamics and being a single mom.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

If you come from abuse, fam any kind of abuse, whether it's romantic partner or familial, oftentimes you will have kind of weird hang-ups around certain holidays because holidays are a chance for abusive personalities to make it all about them.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah, one of the reasons I actually started therapy, I mean, there was a a couple reasons. The one was because my mental health was not well, I was in a pretty dark place. Um, but also because it was around July, and I was like, it just hit me. I was like, oh my god, the holidays are coming. Because you know, that's what it feels like. Yeah, it just comes so fast, and I was like, I just had this like overwhelming feeling and I anxiety come in, and I was like, I don't think I can do the holidays this year, and I'm already feeling this anxiety over it in July. So I finally got a therapist because I just had one um one thing on top of the other that was causing a really dark place for my mind to go. So I went and sought out help, and I'm so glad I did. And I've been seeing her almost weekly since then. It's developed into this beautiful relationship. It has, I really love her.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, I think a lot of mothers also especially have that feeling around the holidays because so much of the emotional labor falls on the woman to make it magical, to make it special for everyone else. The cooking, the decorating, planning, the skilling, and the planning the perfect presence for everyone. And it just feels like as the holidays approach, we just feel this weight of there's so much we have to do, and so much we have to cover.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

And just the cost of it too. So you're planning out a budget on top of everything else you have to cover that month. And uh, well, and that's one of the reasons why I started to get pretty bitter about Christmas, is because I was a single mom, and each Christmas I was putting everything on a credit card, and the family was like slowly starting to grow, more nieces and nephews, and well, your family's really weird how they would give presents to every single niece and nephew.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah, like it's just not normal.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, it wasn't always like that, it just slowly started to become that way, and I was like, I can't do this anymore. I don't I think at one a few Christmases back, um, I think at one point I had like seven dollars left, and I at by the time I was Christmas, and I had a little bit of money left on my food stamps card. So I was trying to figure out what's what was the most inexpensive little hors d'oeuvre I could bring to my family's mill or dinner, Christmas dinner. And you know, I'm trying to enjoy myself, but there's just this like sinking hole inside of me of worry and fear and just how stressed out I feel. Yeah, and I'm like carrying this stress and burden alone too, because even if I try to talk about it with my family, they don't even acknowledge it ever.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, it's pretty toxic to be that insensitive.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah, insensitive is yeah, my family lacks empathy big time. But that's like a whole there's like a whole background of why and where that came from.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

So yeah, it's the holidays are just a mixed bag, and I think a lot of people feel like they're falling short or they're failing when there's these it's just like everything else. There's these Hollywood depictions of perfection and magic and social media is rampant with everyone getting their family pictures and those stupid family letters where people pretend their lives are perfect. Oh, I know. I like writing my family letters very real, and everyone's like, oh, I really like your letter. I'm like, yeah, I just really gave you guys the dish. But what's the point? Like, why am I sending these letters to everyone just like to brag about how perfect I am? You know what I mean? It's the ideas that I care about you, and I'm informing you about my life because I don't get to talk to you very much. Yeah. So yeah, there's I think every family has their different things that are kind of triggering or in addition to family traditions, we have family trauma.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Yeah, it's great, and then you know, the holidays is when everyone comes together. Maybe some families have like the even the distant cousins show up that you don't see except for once a year, and then all this drama unfolds, and it's like, please, Lord, when is this gonna be over?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

There is a reason I don't normally hang out with these people. Like and now during the most magical time of year, I have to see these people that I just can't stand. Yeah, it doesn't feel magical. I have nothing in common with them, yeah, except for the fact that we're blood related.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah, so this is why my heart has become bitter around the holidays.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

It's still wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

It's not, it is not the most wonderful time. We're gonna ruin everyone's Christmas spirit. I'm so sorry. Okay, can we just stop talking about Christmases? So, anyway, well, like I said, it's slowly starting to soften. I'm starting to find new traditions and new ways to bring in the magic for me.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

It's like we were saying with Thanksgiving, it's choosing your peace and getting rid of all of the things that bring in the, you know, the Grinchy feelings of resentment and bitterness.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, well, it's slowly starting to shift. It's a process.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Maybe uh maybe the next episode we can talk to you about Kat's Christmas miracle. Has she found joy and faith again?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I mean, I have therapy. Wow. I don't know if I could trust that. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

That's healthy. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

See how far I've come? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah, we could do a whole episode just ripping apart the different Hollywood romance movies. Yeah. That come out around the holidays.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Oh my god, yeah. They're they're kind of fun when we sit down and we just like eating junk food. Yeah. Yeah. So moving on from Christmas. Well, sorry if I, you know, shifted that or made Christmas uh not sound glorious. It's okay. You're a little bitter. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

You're like, I find that to be a compliment. I'll take it. Well, there's been a lot of um, I guess, talk, a lot of um social media frenzy about the release of Wick Kicked. Yeah. Um, we went and saw it because our daughters were over the moon excited. Yeah, yeah. We had to go see it on opening night.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I mean, I've seen it in uh Broadway a few times. I've seen it live a few times.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

I don't know if we would have gone on opening day though if it weren't for our daughters.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Yeah, no, I would not have. Yeah. Um, but I actually found it difficult to watch because I cannot believe how the main Galinda, how how thin she has become. And I and it's not even from a place of judgment. I was just like really concerned for her. I'm like, that does not look healthy. But then I was just also worried about all the young girls who are gonna be looking up to her and idolizing her.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I mean, I felt like that the first the during the first wicked like that came out, and how so thin she was. Yeah, and she had talked online about how she does have an eating disorder, and I was like, Well, I understand that this is something people deal with, but we are putting her up here as this role model to young girls, and they're gonna want to look like her and dress like her.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

And why isn't this taken into account of how this is gonna affect the mental health of this whole generation?

SPEAKER_02 15:29

I know, it's gonna be like the 90s again when toothpicks. Oh my gosh, that really bone thin, skinny is the style.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, where your hip bones are like jutting through your clothes.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah, I do not miss that at all. I mean, a lot of my I mean, I grew up in the 90s. I was born in '83. So by the time I got awareness of what my body looked like, it was through the 90s in middle school and high school. And I was never thin enough. I had a lot of insecurities.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yeah, I mean, look at the, you know, even the actresses on Friends. Jennifer Aniston was so thin and Courtney Cox. I mean, she wasn't I maybe wasn't unhealthy, not like Glinda, where it look, I'm like, are your organs all functioning?

SPEAKER_02 16:20

I know, like when the body starts to shut up.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, I've I'm worried. So there should be an inner intervention happening. Like, what is going on? Well, it's not even just her now, it's like the whole cast. Yeah, it almost was like it spread.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Yeah. But we started talking about this. We were talking about like just how hard it is for women to never feel satisfied in this culture with their bodies from a very young age.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Like, I can't think of a single Disney princess that is above a size two.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

I I know. Yeah, it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Like they all are suit have these super tiny waists.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah. I mean, I've I I mean, as a a woman, and then looking back in my life, I can remember from a pretty young age worried about being fat.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Well, and I remember having friends too uh when I was younger that they were big boned. Like you could just tell, they just had like a stockier build, and they were always trying to lose weight and always like trying to eat uh air. Yeah. One blueberry with one bit of cheese. Yeah, you know, it's like really sad what we have done as a society to women and their bodies, and uh you think that it would get better as you get older, that you'd fall into more acceptance, but we don't see that in our society. And it actually, if anything, becomes even more of a journey because then you have menopause. And that's if you have children, that's a journey too. Oh I know like what body changes.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

I know, and I hate now, well, maybe not now. This has been a little while, like pregnancy and like working out while you're pregnant, which I think is great. But it's the image of these women trying to stay so fit while they're pregnant.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

It's like if you could just be real thin and only grow in the belly, which isn't normal, like some women get to have that, but normally the hips change. Oh, yeah, because you know, you're gonna have a baby and the boobs change, everything changes to accommodate this growing baby, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

And it's normal to have like a layer of fat for nursing and I wish we would praise how much um our bodies change, how beautiful they come become to carry this baby and this extra weight you have to put on. It's like healthy. It means your baby is healthy. The bait you're giving your baby all this nutrition.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Well, it's another way that women become disempowered, that we become enslaved, that we lose our freedom. Yeah, because we chase this ideal body. And honestly, like I've been on that journey, and even when I was a size zero, I had things I didn't like about my body, and I knew other women who we would, it was almost like how we'd bond as we just talk shit about our bodies. I know, and so and they were all super skinny too, and so it just doesn't matter, it's like no matter where my body was at, I just never was happy with it.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Same when I um after I had my children, I was pretty dedicated to uh getting back into shape and um which I actually really loved. It was the strongest I ever felt, and that's what I enjoyed from it. Yeah, but I still in my head, every time I looked in the mirror, it was never enough. Like my belly was never flat enough. Um, I you know, I have this thing in my head about my love handles because of my childhood. My grandparents, my parents, and other family members always pointed out my love handles, or if I listen to them talk about like women on TV about how small their waists are, or they would mention if they do or don't have love handles, or they would talk about other people with love handles. I don't know. I it's a love handles is a thing in my family. That's really weird. But I guess also coming out of the 90s, the low red jeans jeans part of why the low red jeans, yeah. So they're like hanging off the side. So I was extremely insecure about my love handles because they were pointed out to me quite often. And so I think almost my whole life when I check to get ready, I look behind me in the mirror to see if my love handles are showing and uh, and I feel really insecure and embarrassed when I have a little bit of skin hanging out. And now that I've healed a lot of this, and I look back and I'm like, it's not even bad.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

It's not. I was like, I've just hips.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

I looked, it's just I'm like, wow, I actually looked really good. But anyways, it so I never stopped. I never like running seven miles a day was not enough. Doing an hour-long workout afterwards was never enough because I was like, I need to get rid of this problem, that problem.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

It it just Well, I've just found that with women, it doesn't matter what size you are, if you're plus size or if you're teeny tiny, there's something about your body that you don't like that you're insecure about that someone said something insensitive or some growing up in your family or whatever it is, and it just stays with you.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

It does.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

And um yeah, my ex used to like point out that I had this pocket of fat by my knee. Wow. And like I said, super thin. And I was just like, I think that my body just holds a little bit of fat there. I don't think there's anything I can do. Like, I'm like a size zero, and I'm I I'm I would probably have to get a lipo to remove that. But he always would point it out, always would point it out.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah, my family also did that with like my neck. Like I have this like little extra skin right here, but uh they just always like to point out this in me, and especially my dad, or they call me a little piggy when I was eating. I was a kid, I was growing.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah, I have like kind of lines right here, and my ex would call them my gowels. Oh wow. He'd be like, Oh, you're gonna you get you have gels just like your father. Yeah, which makes you feel really attractive.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah, but but there's a reason to abuse us through our body. Okay, so yeah, they need you to feel insecure. That is their goal. Um, obviously, now I can see that my family was jealous of me.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Oh, yeah, Kat's family is not very attractive.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Um, the genes turned out. Well, thank you. But um you know, as a little kid, I didn't really know this.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Well, and as a kid too, when you're lit when you're little before, you don't look at people's bodies that way.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

No.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Like my three-year-old does not look at people and think, ew, gross jowls. Yeah, no, he just sees bodies, he sees his belly. He's got a little belly, yeah, he sees my belly. He's talking to a belly cute.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah. I actually, with my kids, I have been extremely careful to never talk about my body in front of them. I never talk to him about dieting, I never tell them why I want to go for a run. I'm just going because it'll make me feel good. I never like my daughter, she's just always been this really uh real, like skinny, tiny thing and long. I never ever say that to her. I'm always just telling her how beautiful she is. And then my son has insecurities about his body too, but I'm like, I think you look great.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

But let's face it, as a mother, our opinion is one of the lowest in import in importance to a teenager.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

I agree. Well, but I've been doing this since they were little. I've been trying to do the opposite of what my family's done.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Still hearing those positive words of like, you look so good today, or that sweater looks so good on you. Like finding ways to kind of build them up, even if they brush it off.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Well, I guess I just heard about body image talk a lot around my family, so a lot of my insecurity just came from like listening. So I try to not do that.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Well, I think that the 90s were really bad for girls because it was that heroin chic look, it was the low rider jeans, yeah, and everyone was trying to be like a size zero.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

And how do you do that? You run 10 miles a day and you don't eat.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

This body abuse is not only within maybe the Christian culture, which is what we grew up in. I found it in the new age community too. Well, they'll do these really crazy diets.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Strict diets. So strict.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Like they can eat watermelon and like purify the body. And so we are just like at war. We are at war with our bodies as a society.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

It's never gonna be enough.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

And this is your vessel. Like, I have found that so much of my insecurity in telling my story has to do with my body, has to do with how I look and feeling like I am not, I don't look the right way, I don't present the right way, people aren't gonna listen to me because of my body.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, uh same. Like so many times when I was younger, I'm trying to have a conversation, and I'm actually har having a difficult time engaging into that conversation because I'm just so worried about what my body looks like right now.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah. And um like how many of us have gotten on to do a video call or a zoom chat, and we're so distracted by how we look that we can't even communicate. Yeah. We're like, oh my god, what is going on here? What's up?

SPEAKER_02 25:46

I know. Yeah. Well, you're just human. That's what's going on here. Yeah. And just a body. And we're getting older.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

And Could you imagine if we picked apart like our pets' bodies the same way we pick apart our bodies? Oh, well, people do.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Oh, look at those. Well, I know in Southeast Florida where I used to live, there were people that would get face cuts for their dogs. Yeah, I'm not kidding. Wow, okay. Well, I just need to process that for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Yeah, so you know, it's it depends on where you live. I can just not imagine like looking at a cow and being like, wow, she really needs to shave some off the rear end there. Like, it's just a cow body. This is just a human body.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Yeah, I think it just goes to show how deep um you are in that uh wound when you start doing that to other creatures. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

But um Well, they probably see their dogs as an extension of them. Oh, absolutely. And that's probably why they're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

But I was shocked to find out that the average size for a woman in America is 12 to 18.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Wow. The average clothing size. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Um, but the average model size, the person who wears the clothing to sell it to us.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Let me guess, like negative zero.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Yeah, a size zero. Is there anything lower than zero? I know. And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. No wonder we all have eating disorders. Yeah. Because the only depictions we're seeing are anorexic women. Yeah. I mean, models are pretty open about the fact that they mostly have eating disorders.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Yeah, we we just don't eat. That's how we look like this. Well, you know, it actually started to help me um shift my mindset with my body and body image was uh when I started studying history, um, and uh I just started seeing art and paintings of women from you know a while back, and they were volumptious. A lot of them had a little rounded belly, they have the love handles, they have the love handles, they have like the soft arms, and I was and I was like, oh wow, look at how they used to paint women. And I'm like, well, this is like what women really their bodies really do look like. I'm like, oh that's like actually kind of how my own.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

When they're not constantly being assaulted with size zero models all the time, the height of perfection.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yeah. But um I mean, I think this issue has been around for a long time with women being thin, and like you you are empowered and you are a power you are seen as powerful when you are a beautiful and thin woman. Because like, look at the way women used to dress too, with ways to make their waist look smaller by accentuating things underneath the skirts, like making their hips look bigger, really, yeah, really fluffy skirts to make the waist look smaller. But I think we're at a new level of you know extreme, extreme with being like skeleton, skinny.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Well, it is a way to detract women from their power because how much money do we spend? How much time do we spend? How much of our emotional energy do we spend on our appearance? Oh, absolutely. Because we're trying to be more beautiful, we're trying to be more thin, we're trying to get attention through our body. What could we create if we stopped thinking about our body all the time?

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, we're seeking love and validation from the outside world. So that's the trick, is you have to learn to like find that within yourself. That's that's when it really shifted for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

It's so hard though. It is because every time that you go on a camera or you go out into society, someone is interacting with you based on how you look. Yeah, I notice a huge difference if I go out after I get ready versus like not.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah, oh I get it. Oh, I mean, like, speaking of this, like we were just talking about this a little while ago. Uh, so I've been putting my uh abuse stories up on TikTok, and it's been really funny how people have been calling me out and saying someone like me would never have the someone as beautiful as you can't be abused.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

You are the abuser. Yeah, you're probably solely based on your face.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

They're like, you're the you're obviously the narcissist, and I'm like, huh. Well, this just sounds like abuse to me.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

So well, just to put it out there, just a little PSA. Beautiful women are often targeted by abusers because it is a symbol of status to have an attractive spouse. Yeah, they do want that, they like having the arm candy. It's why they will dispose of you once your looks start to fade. They will and replace you with a younger woman.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

With a younger woman. Yeah. So So just throwing that out there. Yeah, well. And I've been minimized my entire life because of the way I look, but I've also been targeted by the way I look by um really disgusting men.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

There's really it's a no-win situation. If you're ugly, society will dismiss you. If you're beautiful, society will dismiss you. Yeah. Women just cannot win.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Well, that's the thing we were talking about earlier. It's like, yeah, we just can't win. It doesn't matter what you look like. It's the world is just cruel and dark and evil. It's like they want to just put all their hate on you.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Well, you in order to make yourself above, to make yourself bigger, better, more important, you have to make someone less important. Exactly. And that's what's done to women so that men can be more important. And it's been done for so long and it's so ingrained in our culture, in our religion, in our society, that it's almost invisible. Like people just see it as normal.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Well, yeah, I was gonna say it's been normalized, like it's normal. Like women, the only thing we can think about is our beauty and our body. Like that's all our worth is.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, and that's how you get validation, and like you said, that's how you can get how you can be important in society is by being beautiful. But the whole reason that you need to be beautiful is so that you can attract the male gaze. Yeah. Because the more men pay attention to you, the more power you have because men have all the power.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Wow. There it is. Men have all the power. Yeah, well, you know, when you really start going down the journey of healing, you realize this. This is truth. Yeah. And it's really hard to find get your power back. Here's the real thing: how do you learn to love your body?

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Well, and I can't even say that I 100% love the way my body looks.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

I appreciate my body. I see us as partners on this journey, and I see that it's been through this like battle and it's survived, and I think it's pretty freaking awesome that it carried me through that, and that we're still here because wow. Yeah, I felt like a close call. Um, but it is still hard for me to look in the mirror and see such a different body than what I lived with for 35 years.

unknown 32:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

You know, it's like these last five years that's really shifted. It's still hard for me to dress and see how the clothes fit differently or not feel comfortable wearing certain things because I have a perimenopausal body now. And um, I always had like such discipline with my body, and like you said, such strength and such energy, and just to feel that that has been um I I just don't anymore. Not that the discipline isn't there, but I don't want to abuse my body anymore. I don't like that feeling of deprivation and cruelty. It does feel like cruelty, at least the way I did it. Like, you don't get to have this, you have to go do something first. You have to earn. So you should feel guilty because you enjoyed that too much. Yeah. You had one bite too many. Like, look at like kind of like you were talking about the negative voice. And I'm like, I think I'm so afraid of that negative voice coming back that it's like I feel a little bit stuck.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, well, I think it's uh it's a practice. It's just like how would you talk to another person about their body? You have to catch yourself.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

That's smart, yeah. Like flip it around like you're talking to a friend, and how would you talk to them?

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Yeah, and that's um that's what's really helped me because you know, our brain is just so powerful, and you know, it's the master of our world, the way we think, the way we choose to think, the way we choose to talk to ourselves. So you have to kind of make it a daily practice of just taking a few minutes and speaking kind of speaking kind to your body, and when you find the negative thoughts, I mean, for me, it helped me to actually allow the negative thoughts to come all the way through. Because to me, it felt like anger, all this like it's like frustration, suppressed anger and frustration. I'm like, okay, this part of me actually wants to speak, let's let's hear it. And then you listen to it, and you're like, wow, that is really awful. That is a really awful way to talk to someone, you know. And but then once I let it all out and like listened to it, it and then I was like, Well, you know what? Actually, I'm really grateful for this body because we've done a lot together. And I mean, I know my body doesn't look anything like how I want to.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

But you know, just like we were saying, there are people who probably wish they could have a body like this, uh-huh. Whether they're very sick or have different things going on, like they wish they had the health that we have. Exactly. And so it's like learning to appreciate what you have instead of chasing that size zero anorexic figure.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I think it's also learning for me, a lot of it's uh a lot of shifts for me has been learning to just live in the moment. Like you said, I'm going to really appreciate this body right now because what if we got sicker one day? Or what if, you know, like being really sick, like you have been, like I have been like last year, walking up the and down the stairs was really hard, not necessarily like having the energy to, but I was afraid I was gonna trip because my brain was not connecting to my body because it was so fatigued, and I thought I would trip and fall. And I was like, wow, I've never felt this way before in my body. Yeah, and it was just this feeling of like, have we lost our youth? Like, I was kind of mourning this youth and like this part of me that might be gone.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

The thing is, eventually you will exactly we're aging, like uh-huh, that's inevitable.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

It is, we will get older, but now my body's like starting to get healthy again, and I want to approach it in a different way of like, you know, we don't have to do this the way we used to do. I'm not gonna go run miles like I used to now. I'm like, how can I allow myself um to be healthy, to do this in a way that is for me and for my body so we don't injure ourselves and we can hopefully have this um I'm like thinking about my joints because I said running. How can I approach the next stage of my life with exercising that's good for both of us, that we're both content? So it's almost like finding teamwork with my body now versus like a partnership, a partnership, thank you, versus I'm just in control, this is what I want. I'm gonna really hate you and um punish you because you're not doing what I want. And now I feel like I've gotten to the place of partnership. I don't think I 100% am in love with my body, but I think I'm in a much healthier direction than I used to be. It I think it's just a daily practice.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

I think that for me, the because I'm a I've always liked to do running, and that's was always my thing, but it's I've had this question of how do I get back into running without using the negative self-talk. Like, like you don't get to have pizza tonight unless you have run your five miles, you know, 10 miles. And what I've found now is that it's like there's just this joyfulness in moving the body and like feeling alive and feeling, like you said, strong. And so it's entering into this conversation with the body of like what makes you joyful, what makes you happy? Yeah, like what brings us energy, what energizes us and makes us excited versus this like punishing taskmaster relationship.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Yeah, again, it's like having that partnership. What do you need today, body?

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Yeah, so I invite you to ask your body what does it need today?

SPEAKER_02 38:28

And your body is beautiful wherever it is. Okay, I'm gonna say something.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Okay, there's a problem. Your body is beautiful. I'm not sure I can always believe that about my body. I can believe that about your body, though.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

I have to say, another thing that has really helped me with body image is seeing women from around the world in different sizes. And one is I think it's the confidence that a woman carries that makes her beautiful and makes her body like first she's beautiful, then you notice the body, and then it's just like wow, her body's gorgeous because of the way she carries herself. And I love going to other cultures, especially when we've gone to the Mediterranean, and it's so hot, so everyone's just wearing like a little score brain. They're just loving it now. I was like, wow, look at their bellies just hanging now, and they're just walking around with confidence. And after that trip, I was like, I'm wearing crop tops for now on as a way to help me like heal my body image. And now, yeah, yeah, you better believe I got love handles, they are hanging off the side. My belly, sometimes we look pregnant, and I'm like, you know what? I've been other places and women walk around like this, and I think they look beautiful, and I love the colors, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

I love the colors they're wearing, and so I'm trying to do the same thing, is I find that I'm able to look at other women and see how beautiful they are, and I that has really helped me to like turn that back on myself and be like, you know, she has a body like us, or she's kind of like middle-aged like us, or just look how empowered she is. Like, maybe there's something to just being this badass woman powered body versus this like pretty little thing that men want.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Exactly, right? We don't need we don't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

No, no, like what does a war general woman look like, right? You know, yeah, like where's the woman that's gonna inspire and lead? Yeah. Maybe she doesn't look like the size zero dainty little children. I don't want to be a size zero. Maybe she's got a few wrinkles, yeah. I have to do that. Maybe she looks a little battle weary. Because she is just sick of this shit. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

We let's not do this. I I've always like said this too because like I said, I have a like there's a lot of toxicity in my family. And yeah, and the way I write a few books about your family, and the way I present myself, you know, they I've been put down a lot for feeling uh for presenting myself bright and beautiful. I do it because I really like it. I like getting ready every day, it makes me feel good. And I have felt this way for a long time. I do not present myself for any man. I do not I love that. I don't, I've not done it for a long time. I do it for me. I do it because it makes me feel really good. I get my hair done because it makes me feel great.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Yeah, I don't do it for them, but that's when I when I decided to go like white purpley with my hair, lavender. There's a word for that color. It's called lavender. And I just remember especially that like my parents' generation, they were all like, Oh, you like are trying to dye your hair white, you're trying to like have old lady hair. And I was just like, No, I just have this vision in my head of of me, and it has this kind of hair, and I I feel like I'm stepping into who I am by owning it. I don't care what you think. I don't even care if none of you like it.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yeah, that's what it's about. It's what makes you feel excited inside. What brings you that sparkle? And what like just you also why do people feel the need to tell us? I know, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Oh, you did your hair like that? Oh, I don't like it. No one asked you.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

I didn't ask for your opinion and I don't care. And this is another great thing about getting older is you you feel more you feel a lot more confident and just not caring and what people think or say about you.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah, well, it is this kind of attitude of did anyone ask your opinion? Why is a woman just this walking invitation to tell her how she looks or should look or lipstick or makeup or hair or her clothes or her love handles? Why do we all feel the needs to give unsolicited advice to women?

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Yeah, I know. Well, this has just been, again, that invisible normalization for centuries.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Why do you assume that the way I've gotten ready today or or dressed myself or done my hair is for you?

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Has anything to do with you. It doesn't. The only time I do actually do that is when I am actually interested in a man. I'm like, oh, I want him to notice. Maybe we'll do a little extra. But otherwise, it's just for me.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

The colors I choose to wear. Well, I think of that a lot of times I get dressed now because, or like you said, for me, I do it because I want to feel beautiful. And sometimes we look in the mirror in the morning and we're like, well, this is this is where we're at. It's been a rough road and it shows. Yeah. You know, I'd like to not feel like this today. I would like to feel a little like brighter, a little more alive.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Well, I used to watch this show. I was on TLC, What Not to Wear, and that show really helped me to understand how to dress the body, uh any shape, and it like transformed my life. Oh, cool. Yeah, and it's you know, you can be any shape, any size. And find ways to feel beautiful. Exactly. We do not have to be a model, a size.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

But it's like you said it's letting go of that image of perfection of you're like, I love this shirt, I love wearing it, even if it doesn't fit me, like if it's the size zero five size zero model, I'm gonna wear it. Exactly. And I'm gonna enjoy myself.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

And you know, I haven't always felt this way, but this is where I'm at now, and it's been just through a lot of inner work, and it's from having burnout and not caring what people think anymore.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

You know what kind of has surprised me as my body has changed, is it hasn't only affected how men treat me, uh-huh, it has affected how women treat me.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Oh, I know, I know. Oh, women. Wow, they are brutal.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

They are, they are awful. So funny when we get men commenting on our reels and being and um and telling us that you know women can be abusive too. It's like you think women don't know that other women are abusive. I mean, why do you think we all have trust issues around feminine friendship?

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Yeah, I'm I'm a lot. I think, well, I don't know, maybe both sexes. I'm pretty carefully cautious.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Our earliest memories are often being bullied by girls at school. Absolutely. They're horrible. Like, oh yes, but we need a man to tell us that. Yeah, we we know. We know the darkness that is in women. We have been brutally assaulted by it.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

This is why our circle is very small. You know, just you and I basically.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

I mean, there's a few others, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

That's why we just hide in Cheyenna's house and make videos. Yeah, but women will gather an entire tribe and have them stand against you. Or they'll like quietly uh.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

They do it in a very manipulative, quiet way. They like to do the digs, they like to do the little um catty comments uh to see if they can get you ruffled. Or I have this lady at a coffee shop I go to that purposefully messes up my drink. She does. And then like loudly reacts if I if I say anything.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Yeah, you're like, this is actually wrong. Can I please have it adjusted? And then she's like abnox and then purposelessly makes it worse. Yeah, and then messes it up more. Yeah, so that's what's how women do it. Yeah, they're they're pretty catty. They're they're awful. So yes, we do, we know. We know the abuse comes from all areas.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Yeah, men will beat you to death, a woman will poison your favorite meal and turn everybody against you.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

I mean, men do that too.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

So yeah, I think women, I guess they just they just both do it. Toxic men, toxic women, they follow similar patterns, but yeah, the women tend to be more co covert and manipulative than the men just because they have less privilege. Yes, yeah, but yes, women do this with the body too, they will point out things about your body. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

And they'll be like, oh, that was rather brave of you to wear that. Well, my family does this thing too, where if anybody from the outside is in a like uh a gathering and uh they compliment me or something, they'll be like, Oh, well, you should have seen what she looked like as a baby. She was so ugly, she was such an ugly baby. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, when will this ever like stop? Can you guys just stop bringing that up? And I just was not an ugly baby. I look like a normal baby.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

I know you like went through this too, where you know, we had low self-worth. I had low self-worth. And so I was I didn't realize for a long time that I was getting treated by women, like bullied by women because they were threatened by me. I was like, oh, you think oh, you think I'm pretty? Oh, yeah. This is why you're treating me. Because I just look in the mirror and see all my insecurities. Yeah. I did not realize that that's not what you were seeing. So it is I'm just pointing out how it's not just men that treat you different. Women treat you different based on based on your body size. I noticed when I was pretty run down and sick, we had a pretty dark spell spell there for a minute. Yeah, it was hard to even get dressed in the morning and barely got out the door. And I noticed the women were a lot nicer to me.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

I know.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

But I also noticed that people paid a lot less attention to me. It was almost like being invisible when I'd walk through stores or even check out, like they don't even like make eye contact with you or really communicate with you. And I was just like, oh, I'm I'm learning some things now. And it's just crazy that how the world treats you changes so much based on how you look physically. That is just one of the biggest injustices to me because some of the most valuable people, like the most wise people I have met with the most interesting life stories and experiences, are not attractive people.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

They're not your traditional someone you would pick out or notice. But have you ever noticed, like, when I've been around people like that, as I sit there and get to know them, it's like their beauty starts to shine through, and I'm like, oh, you're actually a really attractive person.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Yeah, yeah, they become more attractive. But in our society, it's like we have completely misplaced where we put our value. Yeah. And the most valuable people are oftentimes invisible in this world. And that is just crazy to me because then on the flip side, we have Kim Kardashian in the spotlight. Oh, I know. And everyone's hanging on every word that she says, you know? I know. And I don't even follow, so maybe she has good things to say. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

I but I I'm just using that as an example of like how we give all of this attention to people with these big followings because they're beautiful or famous or rich. Meanwhile, we have these incredibly wise people full of life experience that nobody's listening to, that nobody's even acknowledging. I know. You know, they're probably living on disability, and who knows, they might even be losing that soon. We're just turning them out on the streets.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

I know, it's awful.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

It is.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

So, yeah, so beauty obviously has power in our society, which is it's an unconscious thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

We're attracted to what we're attracted to.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

But I think that's been a it's been that way for a long time too. Again, it's just like beauty has just it has this um magic to it, and people are drawn to it, and then they want to like suck it out of people and absorb it.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

They want to get close to it.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

They want to get close to it.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

So but then you know, it's such a contradiction as well because the beauty standards are always changing. They are like you were just saying, historically, it's changed drastically. And there's even we have paintings of women that were considered great beauties in their time. And people are like, that's they're like, Wow, look at that nose, you know. It's like, oh no, that's what they liked back then. That was a regal nose.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Yeah, so really you just gotta learn to love yourself and your body and what you got because it really is like the person you are inside is where the the beauty and the magic is.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

And it it starts by listening to that self-talk. How are you talking to your body and how much of a taskmaster are you being versus being in partnership with the body? Because you know, you beat that horse to death, then you gotta finish out the rest of your life with this broken body.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Well, you're just never gonna be satisfied either. Um, yeah, you're never gonna be happy, you're it's never going to be enough. I mean you I mean you see this too with like plastic surgery as well, but we don't you're gonna spend all this money, all this time, all this energy chasing this perfection.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Yeah, and it's unreachable.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

And we we're still working on it. Like I have days where I'm just like, you know, those really dark voices come in and I'm talking really horrible to myself.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Well, I just feel like it'd be really inauthentic of me to be like, I completely love my body all the time. I'm like, no, we wake up in the morning and we're like, I know. And then we're like, okay, okay, we love you.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

Yeah. It's a lot easier to love my body when I'm dressed and you know, I'm wearing colors I like versus when I'm naked. I'm like, oh well, that's what we look like now. Oh well. I'm just like, you know, I'm just my energy is not where it used to be. You know, I've I'm uh recovering from adrenal fatigue and going through perimenopause. And PTSD. PTSD. Um, I don't have a lot of energy, so most of the time it's it's like, where do I want to put all my energy? I don't want to sit here and think about my body all the time anymore. I want to think about other things. Maybe that's just aging. Maybe that's what aging does for you. But if you if you accept that you're aging and don't fight it. Well, it's happening. I'm not gonna fight this one because I'm too tired.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

But you know, whether or not you think you have a beautiful body, it's the body you have. It's the only one you have, it's the only one you're ever. We haven't figured out how to do brain transplants yet. So that's the body that you are working with until death do you part.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

It is. So just you know, find that place within you. Take time every day to have conversations with your body and give it, give your body love and attention just like you would, like your best friend or child, or no divorce with the body.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

You can't. Nope. That one doesn't work. So you just have to figure out how to get into a partnership that's healthy.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Well, I hope all of this chatter, this conversation, I hope it's helping you in um in a way. I hope some of the things that we've talked about in our stories is helping you. And we'd love feedback. And if you have anything to add to this, or if you want to share your story, we'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

Every woman has a body story. We all have one. You have one. I think that it can be a really good exercise to even sit down and enter into a conversation with your body through journaling. Yeah. Sit with how how often do we sit and listen to the body versus always telling it what we want?

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Exactly. When I started doing that, um, all my body would tell me is I want to rest. And that was a really hard one for me because I'm like, well, I want to go run, I want to go do all these things. And my body's like, no, I really don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Yeah. So make room for your body to have it's just like any other relationship, except for you can't go no contact, you can't get divorced. This is it. This is it. This is it, your body and you till the end. And you can choose to make it a battle, or you can choose to make it a partnership.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Um, I love having a partnership with my body. I'm at a much more peaceful place within myself because of it. And it's again, it's something I have to be aware of and work at every day.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Yeah, your body is like a roadmap of all the battles, of all the experiences, of all the frustrations, the sicknesses, the happiness, the joy, the memories. Your body holds all of it. It is there with you in every single moment, in every single experience. And you know, whether or not it looks the way you want it to look, it can be your best friend.