The Gift of Boredom

Midlife often triggers not only perimenopause but trauma work in women. Hormonal shifts make it difficult for women to continue to pretend and anger begins to surface as they process the many disappointments and injustices of life. Cat and Jayenna discuss the difficulty of processing their personal rage as well as the peace and even 'boredom' that comes from letting go of toxic cycles. Join them as they laugh their way through the hard parts.

https://www.thefreewomanpodcast.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome. Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Happy New Year. Happy New Year.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

For those of you listening in real time. It's a new year. Yeah, we're back after taking our little break too, which was really nice. Yeah. Little Christmas break, vacation time. Holiday vacation.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Yeah, but unfortunately it has been raining. So it doesn't feel very holiday-esque here.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

It doesn't. Where we're where we live, usually by now we'd have a lot of snow. Yeah. A couple inches at least. We usually have snow starting in October. Yeah, but we've been having rain. It's mud and rain. Yeah, and it just doesn't feel like winter and it feels kind of depressing.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah, it's like we live on the Oregon coast without the beauty of the ocean. We're just here in this muddy desert. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

It's not as pretty. Well, these Oregons like lush and here it's just like you said, a desert.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah, I think the nature is really confused. It's like, should I grow? The animals are like, do we hibernate? Wake up.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah. It's been weird. Like I've like felt it too. I'm like, this feels really off. This feels really weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

So it's interesting how much our rhythm or system kind of unconsciously is accustomed to the seasons. To the seasons. Yeah. And so when it's raining and it's supposed to be snowing, you do. You just feel off. And people are kind of grumpy.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

They are. Yeah. They don't like it. I mean, the snow, I like it because it is bright. It's pretty. It does, and you know, when it gets dark at like 4 30 in the evening, it makes it not feel as dark. But right now it's just been so dark and gloomy.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

It's the silver lining. It's the snow lining. It is snow lining. The darkest time of the year. But here we are in rain. So so yeah. So that's how we're doing and how we're feeling right now. Yeah, we had, I think, a pretty good holiday, in spite of all our grinching on our last episode. It was a nice holiday season. It was. I got through it and it wasn't too bad. Minimal minimal drama.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Minimal drama. Just what I wanted.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

It's kind of like what happens when you just cut out all the toxic people.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

It's just quiet. It is. It was really quiet. I think I was even a little bored. I was like, wow, I don't know what to do with myself. It's just so quiet. There's nobody around. I don't have to go to a bunch of families' houses and uh say hi to people.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

And I did notice that that was an adjustment when I started cutting out toxic people from my life. Is suddenly there wasn't all this drama. There wasn't this roller coaster ride happening all the time. And it was a bit of an adjustment for my system. I was kind of bored. Yeah. I was just like, oh, well, I guess it's just gonna be a normal day. There's no fireworks going off or bombs exploding or people showing up in the middle of a meltdown, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Just feeling fuzzy and kind of wired all the time. I know. I was telling myself when I was bored, I'm like, you know, we've dreamed of having this. Like, we've dreamed of feeling so like quiet and had nothing to do. We want to have wanted to be bored. And you know what? We got it. And it so that kind of helped. And I was trying to really embrace it and enjoy it, and watched a lot of movies I wanted that I like to watch during this season, and it was our nervous system kind of gets addicted to the abuse cycle.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Um, it's like uh it's like riding a roller coaster, and even though it's not good, there's some really low points, there is this kind of feeling of exhilaration. Yeah, like the drama, the drama.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah, that's why I'm sure people love like soap operas.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah, they love the drama. I know, like in uh my uh a marriage that was so toxic, I used to always say, Well, at least I'm never bored with him. At least I'll never bored with him.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Well, I want the opposite now. I want someone that feels calm, relaxing, and there's no big surprises.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah, when I started dating a healthy man, it was really disconcerting because he just always showed up when he said he'd show up. He always responded when I texted him, and there was never any question in my mind about what's going on or where he's at or what he wants. And I was like, well, this is almost kind of boring. And then I was like, Well, let's remember what it was like when we were with someone not boring. Yeah, that was bad. That was really bad. It was really bad.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah, and stressful and exhausting, and then you're trying to take care of your kids at the same time with like just a thread of energy, and yeah, uh, well, you're just constantly on like an adrenaline rush, it's just survival all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Because even when you're having a peaceful day, you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, well, and then as you get older, your body can't really keep up with that adrenaline cortisol high all the time, and then eventually you just start getting sick and aging.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Which is what I think a lot of women are getting perimenopause symptoms earlier because of that, because uh our adrenals do affect our hormones and we're all in adrenal burnout.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, you hit 40, and it's like you hit this wall, boom, I can't do it anymore. My body's like, you know what, you gotta listen to me now because we're done.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Or you leave that super abusive relationship that you got into when you were young and dumb.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Well, young and naive. Like we didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Like Well, yeah, and you can say uneducated, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Uneducated, like we just didn't know. We were just following what we were told we were supposed to do. I mean, I was dumb. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Young and dumb. Yeah, just you know, that confidence that young tea young adults have where they think they know everything and they know nothing. And then you just get to learn everything the hard way because you decide to be so stubborn. Well, it's just it is a really great way of learning about life. And then a decade later, just you're falling apart. And he finds another younger woman or easy, dumb woman replacement. Yeah. Um, and you're just left, you know, a bitter cat lady, I guess. I'm like, what is the life cycle of the perimenopausal woman?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

You do, you do become well, you do. You can become bitter. Like, I've definitely felt it in me. I'm like, oh, this is where the bitterness comes in.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, I was like, I understand now why old women, some of them are so damn bitter, or like our mother's generation has so much rage.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Oh yeah, and just like that snapback that they have.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, those Karen's videos that are out there where women are just losing their freaking minds. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

In public. Yeah, I just sent you one of this woman screaming at another lady that was sitting on a rock she wanted to be on, and she was like in her face screaming at her. And I was like, Well, this is what happens when you never let your rage out.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

And then you, you know, you hit middle age and the hormones start shifting.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, it's just not good.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

It's like a volcano waiting to erupt.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

It's not good, it's awful, and then your body just starts falling apart, and you have no more energy, and so you have a choice. Yep. Either start doing some of your inner work or just become old, bitter, and blaming everybody else. A victim. Just become a victim and blame everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Well, you can always just, you know, keep getting Botox and injections and fillers and lifts and pretend like not none of it's happening.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I have to say, no matter how much Botox and facelips lifts you get, you can still see the bitters. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

It kind of shapes their mouth. It looks like they're sucking on a lemon all the time.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

It doesn't matter how much you get injections in those lips, they are still very mmm.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

It's not resting bitch face, it's resting bitter face. It is the bitter taste of life. It just fermenting on your tongue.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yeah. Well God, I mean, there's just so many injustices that happen, and it is. It's really hard to um like as a I mean, any anybody, I mean it can be a man too, but come on, women, goddamn.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Well, yes, like men are abused and they go through obviously victim situations as well, but I think that it's undeniable that women have been oppressed as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, for a long time. A long time, thousands of years.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

I mean biblical.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

I mean, we used to be just like sold as property.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

We still kind of are. We still kind of are. My ex, he wrote a return letter to my parents when we were getting divorced. He said he was returning them because he didn't returning me because he no longer wanted me anymore. I guess so. Like I was a piece of property being handed back.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Oh my god, so old fashioned that you know he was what Mormon, so that makes sense. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I mean he was raised Mormon, but I don't know if I blame the Mormon for it. I I feel like it's more kind of that like radicalization that's happening in men who are not they don't have a lot going on for them. Yeah, they're you know, they're not like super attractive, they're all super rich, and they have mommy issues. And so they just kind of hate women.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah, well, it felt like he was really trying to jab at you too. I mean, like, you can have her back.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah, I think well, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

She has your trashy girl back.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Well, that's what happens when you leave an abuser and they have to try to humiliate you and devalue you because it's a way to protect their ego.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, you've embarrassed them, you've like hurt.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

You're not dumping them, they're dumping you.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

And you can have this trashy whore back.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Exactly. Meanwhile, he's got someone who's like 10 years younger than him with like triple D boobs moving in. I'm like, am I really the trashy one? I know. Such is life. See, this is the life cycle of the perimenopausal woman. Yeah. It's like, you know, butterflies go through their stages.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

And women go through this. Yeah, and then women, yeah, they do. I know, it's really awful. Like when my I got divorced with my ex, he had a woman lined up right away too.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

They always do.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

They always do, which it didn't surprise me. I actually was not surprised because I was like, well, he did this through our entire relationship. What really surprised me or hurt me is like how quickly he moved the kids, moved her in with the kids and she became their mommy. I was like, oh, that, oh, okay. Well, that's where that's a low.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

It's one thing when they're, you know, humiliating you and doing horrible things to you, you know, it's bad enough. But when they start doing it to your children or your loved ones, or he even came after some of my friends. And I I don't know, it was such an awful feeling to be so grateful for the very few people who stood by me, but also feel like guilty. I'm so sorry that my your friendship with me is causing this chaos in your life.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, you don't want to hang out with me anymore, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

I really do understand. I do understand. But also, you're like my last friend.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

It would mean a lot to me if you stuck around. Not too much. I have no one anymore. Oh, it's kind of nice. You know, I go through the divorce and kind of get a sleep clean slate with even friends because you know it's Yeah, you learn a lot. You learn a lot. A lot of them are just um Fairweather friends.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Fair weather friends.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

A lot of them are just like your ex-husbands.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Some of them aren't even fair weather friends. They're like, as long as you drag my dead weight forward. Friends. A lot of them are just using you.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

As long as you prop me up with you know, you make me feel better about myself. I'm gonna keep you around. And then you know your life goes to shit, and they're like, oh wow, you you look horrible now. We're gonna we're gonna walk away as quickly as possible. Distance, you're not making me look good anymore. We're just gonna we'll hide over here, and then when you start to put your life back together again, we'll be like, oh, I'm so sorry. I was just so busy. I had so much going in my life, too. I'm sorry I couldn't be there to help you, and you can just go, fuck you.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, that's where the bitterness comes in. Yeah, it's like, you know how to feel my mouth doing that thing. I'm like, there it is. That's that's like the sour taste. The lips are starting to pucker. Quick, go get the Botox.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Relax the mouth, relax the mouth. I know we oh yeah, that's I don't know. I don't think I want to have the pucker lip look with the.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, we were we were playing around with the camera before we started and we're like looking at what our lips would look like if we got them if we got them done.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

That's all lip and no no eyes. We'd have to get our eyes done after that one.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Well, that's why, you know, one thing leads to another. It looks out of place.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

We're looking out of balance, so that's why we're just gonna let everything sag slowly together.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Well, makeup just becomes more and more essential to tell you. Wait, listen to our cat. Wait, I all the way up to our eyebrow. I remember when I was young and I was like, I think I look better without makeup. And I think I did. I mean you look better without makeup. Yeah. And then I'm like, nope, nope, we don't. No, no, no, no, no, better without makeup.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

I know there's days when I'm doing nothing. I'm just in the house alone, but damn, I gotta go put some bronzer on because I'm like, we look really bad.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, the skin just starts to show, you know, the miles. The miles.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Okay, now let's put some red lips on because wow. And then it's like, oh, okay, you know, we we look kind of alive again.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

And it's not just the miles, it's the quality of those miles, you know? Yeah. There's been potholes, like unpaved roads. Oh, there's been a complete like mud pin, mud slide come through now. Sewage overflow had to come through.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, it's not been good. So, you know, you go you're going through survival your most of your life, and then you hit 40, and then you're you just all of a sudden hit perimenopause, and then you just don't really have energy for anything anymore, and then you're just like, I don't give a fuck anymore. Did I upset you? Well, I don't have the energy to even feel that. So I'm not sorry. I don't even have the energy to say I'm sorry. You're like, okay, we'll go figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Maybe just don't talk to me anymore, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Love you. It is great. I would have I have to say, like being in my 40s, like having this like feeling of not caring is really refreshing. It's like being set free.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

It is like being speaking of free women. Free women? Yeah, sometimes you know, you set yourself free, and sometimes life just sets you free. It just pushes you over the edge. Yeah, a boulder just comes down the hill and lands on you. You have none no drugs. Oh, I guess that life, I guess you just can't do that anymore. It's dead now. Yeah, I mean you can still try to fight it, but you know, at that point, you I mean Well, you have to be careful because if you you try to fight it at that point, then you end up being on YouTube because someone caught you on camera screaming at a lady.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I know. Oh, that was I I actually was really proud of the lady that sat there and just took her screaming at her, and eventually the lady sitting there spit in her face because she just couldn't tolerate it anymore. And then the lady screaming really lost it. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, you might need to walk away. She might rip your hair out now.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yeah, I I I just feel bad. She had family with her. Yeah. Um the screaming lady had her family with her, and I was like, Oh, you poor souls, did she do this to you at home?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

You probably they were all like, baby, it's okay, just stop screaming, come over here, please stop. Please stop. But that's what happens if you never take care of like all the injustices that have happened to you in your life.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Well, and the thing that I I find so many people uh struggling with, the hurdle that they can't get over when it comes to taking care of that internal rage grief, uh-huh, is they try to do it in a logical way. They're like, I'm going to process this logically, I'm going to try to like label everything, categorize it, blah blah blah blah blah. Really, what you need to do is you need to feel all of the emotions.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

And you need to just be able to allow yourself to look really just know you're gonna look ugly and hideous as you go through it. Like maybe don't tell them that, let them be surprised. Oh, I'm just trying to no, never mind. Just you just go through it, you create a nice little space, maybe do it with a therapist or you know, alone. Yeah, it's it is, it's like a volcano or cystic acne. Yeah, and it comes in layers. Like I've like found when I've gone through it, um, like when I've had release moments, and then I'm like, wow, that felt so good. And I'm like, oh, I think I'm done. Life is gonna be dandy. Month later, we're doing it again. It's like another level, and then eventually you get to the pit of it, like the wrought root of this like disease that like slowly or a bit of yeah, infection that was underneath the acne pimple. Yeah, you know, you gotta get that sucker out, and then you have the most like amazing screen cry of your life, but it's also like quite uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Well, there's a lot of bravery required because you to be able to go into your trauma, you have to well, you have to face things that are terrifying, but you also have to stop caring what other people think so much because as you start doing your trauma work, people are gonna push back. They are, and you're gonna because you're gonna be changing, and that upsets their reality change.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, it it does, and then next thing you know, you might have to be going no contact with everybody you know because you tried to better yourself and then their world just like completely changed, and they don't want that, they don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

And yeah, well, I mean you think about it like when uh Mormons, which is where we live, when they leave their religion, um, they start doing that deep work and looking into some of the falsehoods they've been told, how much pushback they get from their community. And so there's kind of a contract you're unknowingly in with people in your life to mutually act out this fantasy or this lie. Uh-huh. And as you start doing your work, you start being more authentic, and the fantasy or lie, that contract gets triggered.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Yeah, you just trigger the shit out of everybody around you. Yep. Unless they're authentic and they actually truly do care about you as a person.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

They're like, I'm really proud of you. I'm really proud that you're doing what's best for you. Well, and I found that you know, when I come up against that in other people where maybe they're doing some kind of work and it's gonna shift our relationship, I'm like, you know, good, good for them. If if their path is gonna need to take them away from me or from this dynamic. Yeah, I I don't take it personally. No, it's not personal. I'm proud of them.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

I'm really proud because we we both know how hard it is.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah, because sometimes we can play negative roles in other people's lives without even meaning to or in having that intention. And so yeah, if you need to walk away, then good.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah. When I was started doing some of my really deep, like looking at that rotted root me p uh pus thing inside me, I was just so shocked at how um triggered my family was with me. And I didn't even realize that me doing this was triggering them. I just started noticing that they were using me as the scapegoat in the family, and then they were triangulating the women, especially, yeah, and making me the bad guy. And I was like, I can't believe that I am doing this really hard work, and all of you guys are becoming like assholes. Yeah. And it was really painful, but I still chose to do my work, and then I realized as I was going deeper and deeper, I'm like, oh, I realize what I'm doing. I'm holding up a mirror. And me, like looking about the at these things, me talking about these things was making them before they even wanted to to like look at parts of them themselves or like the patterns and the triggers and uh the cycles that go on in my family. And so instead of them being like love and kind towards me, they decided to make me a bad guy. Well, that's the easier story for them to accept. And I understood, like I understood. I wasn't like I didn't like hate them. I didn't, I wasn't really necessarily angry. I think I was more like disappointed and just like really hurt that I had my in order for me to continue with my healing, my journey. My only best choice was to go no contact with everybody so I can like cut off any type of connection.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Well, your family though is uh how do we say those? It's alright, just put it out especially toxic. Especially toxic. Um there was some there was a lot of severe trauma in your childhood and in your cousin's childhood. And just a lot of hidden secrets. Nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody wants to talk about it, but they're all still acting out they are the stories.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah, and I guess for me, what was I didn't realize how serious it was until I started to kind of open Pandora's box, and then I saw how they reacted to everything, and I was like, oh, so this is who we really are. Yeah. And it's hard. So that's what I guess what I'm trying to say is is like if you start doing this, just expect some unexpected things.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

It is gonna be painful, it is gonna be hard, but well, I mean, there's been pushback, even people on the internet get triggered when you talk about oh yeah, your stories, when we talk about our stories, and bring up. That's so interesting that they are so triggered they feel the need to attack random people online, people they don't even know, don't even know the the background, the context. Sometimes they haven't even listened to the whole video. Oh, the whole video, and I'm like, did you listen to what I just said?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Because what you're telling me does not make sense at all.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah, and so I mean talk about triggering people in your personal life and your family and your friend circles. I mean, just look at what happens online when you talk about trauma and how triggered, triggered people get.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

I know, and that's why it's really hard to like put yourself out there because this is what's gonna happen. And I guess you just get to that point, like we were saying with perimenopause. Yeah, I almost just don't care anymore. I mean, I still do get triggered, and I have to process these parts of myself inside because it's like this wounded inner girl that's like, wow, they're right, they're attacking me. And so, you know, we have to go hang out for a while and be like, no, no, no, we're okay, we're we're doing fine, we're safe. Yeah, we did nothing wrong, yeah, and just keep talking because it's the only way through. You just have to keep telling your stories, and people are gonna accuse you no matter what, they're gonna, you know, gaslight you and well, and there's there's so many people that I've encountered in this trauma work who are willing to just go a few inches deep, I guess, and then they stop. They like dip their toes in the pond, and they're like, oh, that's a little too cold.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah, yeah. But then I I I've also noticed that a lot of people want the appearance of doing the healing work um without actually doing it. They they want to go to the ayahuasca retreat or the silent retreat or do the yoga or the meditations, but they don't actually go into the trauma.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

You don't turn around and actually face the shadow, the thing that scares you the most.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah, and that that was a hard lesson for me to learn because I always make this false assumption that other people are on the same wavelength as me, that it's like, well, of course, if I have something like that, I'm gonna look at it like I want to.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

There's some really good pretenders out there, but other people don't. Yeah, some people are really good at like acting and like putting on that persona. It's taking some time for us to really figure out and see who is like authentic or not. Yeah. And now that we've done it for so long and gone so deep, well, we can tell.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

We've uh not even just the false gurus though, but like a lot of the people that we've worked with because we do trauma work, it's like, oh, never mind. Yeah, it's like, yeah, there's abuse here with your dad. Oh, I didn't realize we were gonna talk about that. Well, we will not be back.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

We thought we were just gonna do a little work, so then my business will grow and I can make money. Yeah. Oh, no, no, no. I just want to not feel depressed anymore.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

I don't want to actually have to, yeah, go down into the pit of despair.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

You gotta go to that route where that, you know, where that disgusting raw is, and you gotta go in there and kind of feel it. And it yeah, because you're gonna still stay depressed. You're gonna be stuck. You're gonna feel stuck. I mean, there's things, there's tools you can do every day to kind of move it a little bit and make yourself feel a little bit more positive, but it just catches up to you, especially as you age. It's just that's it's implanted, it goes with you for life.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah, well, I know you've been doing a lot of work this holiday season.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I have, you know, it's my favorite thing to do when I'm alone during Christmas. I well, I I have been pretty dedicated to figure out a few beliefs I have about myself, and the only way to do it is have some space and some quiet space and sit with things, um, meditate, um, journal and sit with it and go into it. And then uh for me, a lot of stuff comes in dur in my dreams. So see a lot of things I'm able to process a lot of stuff through my dreams. But yeah, I've been processing. I have this really uh this part of myself um that believes I'm like the bad guy. I'm like this really bad person, and it comes from like my childhood, and it's been really hard to actually talk.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah, if you were a scapegoat in your family system, I think all scapegoats have that. Uh I know I had that too.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah, and I I also didn't speak about my divorce for so long. Like I haven't like I've been kind of in hiding for a long time. Uh, but a lot of it had to do because, well, one, I have a lot of underlying anger. What? And that anger wants vengeance. And I was afraid if I started speaking, I was afraid if I even talked about things even after my divorce, even years after it, I I was afraid that anger was gonna take over and I would do malicious things to um to have justice, to get or to get that relief a bit as well. So I'm I'm glad that I didn't. I'm glad that I kind of went in a different route. I'm glad I've done like a little a build-up towards my work. I'm glad I have a therapist that can help me too to go into things. And I'm glad that I well, and just to kind of go back a little bit, my father was a really dark human and he is a narcissist. And so that being a bad person thing is like I'm afraid of being the narcissist. So that's why I hold myself back a lot from talking or telling my stories or talking about my divorce because I really do believe that I am the narcissist. Which I know when you say you think that you're not, but I I know how they um handle things, I know how they react, I know how they are as a human because I grew up with it. It's like I got a PhD in this stuff, you know? It's like everybody in my family is a narcissist. Like my ex-husband is a narcissist, almost all my ex-boyfriends are narcissists. It's been lovely. But I finally see it, but I'm just so afraid if I talk, if I express myself a certain way, that is gonna make me the bad guy. So it's it's been challenging. But now I'm realizing it's it's not. I've had to like turn around and just look at this part of myself and tell myself every time I talk, I'm not the bad guy. I don't want vengeance. I mean that maybe a little bit, like a little, I mean I just I want justice, I want fairness, I want people who have gotten away with a lot of abuse to just be seen. And I've realized, well, the only way that's gonna happen is for me to actually talk about it and tell my story. And so it is. It's like it's a really hard thing to like face within myself. I've had to like find ways to actually healthy, a healthy way to get the anger out. But I think now that the anger is kind of moved, I'm feeling a lot of grief. So it's been fun, a lot of crying, a lot of really big sobs. Yeah, rainy, rainy Christmas is a good time for that. Yeah, just gonna sit on the couch and cry.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah, I think that a lot of survivors, in my experience, a lot of uh victims of abuse, they are afraid of letting their anger out.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

And that's why they make such great targets for abusers, because they don't stand up for themselves, they don't push back, they don't have that like fiery.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

They can use the anger against you and tell you you're the abuser. And I think that's why it's so hard to let it out. I mean, that's why I've like kept it back.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

But the anger is what makes you leave. Uh-huh. It's what makes you walk away, it's what makes you set those boundaries and respect them. And it also is a reflection of self-worth of I deserve better. Like, I am angry on behalf of myself who deserves better than that.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

I mean, after my divorce, I really wanted to just go up to my ex-husband's house with his new girlfriend and go slap both of them in the face and spit in them, spit out them. I really did. I was like, wow, we need to contain ourselves because this is like my dream right now.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Well, and that's the thing is once the anger starts coming out because it's been repressed for so long and because the injustice is so huge, the anger is huge. And it a lot of times it makes victims look crazy. Exactly. So they can tell see you're the crazy one. I'm the crazy one. She's coming to our house and harassing us and doing all these crazy things. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

So I've been trying to contain that for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

And well, you have to find other ways to move the anger. Unfortunately, we can't go and attack people, even if they deserve it, even if they really deserve it.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

God, I know. Even if it meant they would if you like attack them and it made them look like a crazy person too, and then you know, people would see them for who they are, you can't do that. So I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah, I had a lot of anger when I was going through my custody battle because the injustice was just so huge. And anger, I think, was the most uncomfortable emotion to sit with. I am more comfortable with depression, with grief, with sadness, even when it's really sinking and low and heavy. I feel like I can sit with that one better than the anger.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, the anger uh it just it does. It feels it needs to leave your body. It feels pretty explosive. I mean, that's why exercising is like so good. Such a good way for that. Yeah, that helped me quite a bit when I could move my body a lot. Back before I was so sick.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Back before my body decided to completely compl collapse. Well, and I found that the unmoved anger creates sickness in the body.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

It does, yeah, it does. I mean, those really like deep pieces, I mean, I think it develops into like arthritis in the body, gut issues, um, it also I think can make like joints hurt. Maybe not necessarily arthritis, but like inflamed as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Yeah. Stiffness. Stiffness. Well, I if you think about when you get angry, how you tense. You tense different parts of your body. Yeah. And so it makes sense that it would turn into this kind of stuck energy. Like stiffness. Yeah, this stiffness, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:58

They can't move.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

And uh an exercise that I've been doing lately is sending things back to people. I realize how much from a very young age I would take other people's shit, and I would like take it upon myself, and I'd let them make me the bad guy, or make me the one who's supposed to fix it, yeah, or take care of it, or love it, or play a certain part so they don't have to feel it. And I've just been sending it back. I'm like, this is not mine. I am not the bad guy. I am just trying to live my life. Not gonna carry this. Just trying to find my own bliss, my own joy, my own peace.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

This is not my thing. That's uh like you were saying earlier with the scapegoat. That's like very common for the scapegoat, because that was me too. I was like kids.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Well, I didn't even know I was a scapegoat until I don't know, this last fall. Yeah, just recently you figured it out. Epiphany. Well, because my family is so polite. Yeah. I mean, your family doesn't have quite as much class. They're little class in the world, but your family not so much. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

No, no, no, no. They they are not classy at all. They're quite trashy. It's but classy people can abuse you too. Yes. They can't oh well no, yeah. I mean, classy people can be quite brutal, but very like very in a very polite way that you don't realize.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

And they're really smart about it so that it's like it's not obvious that they're the the bad person. Yeah, they really can stab you in the back too. Yeah. Yeah, your family. I know. I well it's it's been funny seeing how triggered some people are by your videos and the fact that you've gotten no contact, or the fact that you know, this or that, and it's like, well, maybe we should tell more stories about Kat's family.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I know. I was like, well, maybe I just need to go in and like just really tell you what I grew up with because it's like you know, and I think about it in my head, I'm like, oh yeah, but then when I say it out loud, I'm like, God, that that was that's really bad.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Well, it's it's awful as a victim that you even feel the need to justify your stories because I know when I was talking about getting divorced and my ex and our custody battle, there were so many people who are like, Oh, well, what do you mean by abuse? You mean that he like didn't say something nice one time, and I'm like, no, he strangled me, he hit me, he hit our kids, he screams in their faces, he doesn't feed them, breaks stuff, he breaks stuff, we feared for our lives, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Never knew what mood he was gonna be in.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Even like feeling the need to give those really personal details to strangers on the internet who don't think I am justified to use this word, you know? Yeah, how how dare you?

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Well, I have found it interesting. Um, most of the videos I make talking about my abuse, there's always some idiot gaslighting me or calling me the narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Accounts are even real sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

But the ones when I actually talk about my sexual abuse as a child, those ones are actually the only ones where I don't get it. Everyone kind of gets quiet.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Everybody gets quiet. Oh, wait, that is really bad.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Well, yeah, well, even the ones where I've talked about my ex-husband going to strip clubs for years and then coming home and having sex with me, and I didn't even know. Like, I I was like so I wasn't disgusted then. I'm a lot more disgusted now because I actually have some self-worth. But I've had people who are like, your choice. I'm like, really? In what way? In what way? I'm talking about how I didn't even know for years, and then he's like got this high from just being at the strip club, and then he's gonna like sleep with me. Like, yeah, uh not really my choice, but guess what? I divorced him.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

I divorced then it's the same people that are are shaming us for being single moms or oh yeah, yeah, divorcing or yeah. Or you look at you, you've never been abused. Look at how you look. I'm like it's really highlighted how as a woman it's a lose-lose situation.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

It is, it doesn't matter what you do.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

If you stay, you're judged, if you leave, you're judged. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Well, and I even did a video about my mom and why I went no contact because I was like, the final draw is like when I was in the hospital and I couldn't speak because I had the tonsil in my or the abscess on my tonsil, and it really hurt to talk. And I was just it was still all about her while we were in the hospital, and I was just like, maybe text me because it like really hurt to talk. And even the doctor like looked at her and was like, oh my god. And people still were commenting and saying that I am the bad guy, or maybe I'm overreacting, or maybe I put myself in that role of being her parent and therapist. And I was like, All right, I think we need to make another video and talk about who she really is. She knew about the sexual abuse, never did anything about it, flirted with my brother's teenage friends, especially the ones that were interested in me. I think she may have slept with one, and then brought home all these disgusting, disgusting men and slept with them, and we could hear it. Yeah. And this is when I'm a teenager. This is like just the things that bothered me. Like initially, it bothered me as a teenager. But now as I'm told, I'm doing a lot of my inner work.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

I was like, God, where was my mom? I'm like, where was she? Not to mention the fact that your dad not only was molesting his kids but beating them. Yeah. And just all of this horrific abuse that was going on.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

I mean, my brother is handicapped and he had a stroke when he was a baby, and his right side is limp, and my dad used to chase him in the yard with a horse whip, and then beat him both my older brothers with a horse whip. I mean, and then, you know, I'm just like, well, in my head, I'm like, well, I guess this is just normal.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Like And so you're like, I I'd like to, you know, get online and talk about abuse. This is something I've been through. And people have the audacity to They're like, well, what do you know? Be like, have you thought about taking responsibility for your part? Like I was a child. I'm sorry for being bored. What did you want me to do? I know, I know. It's just been I'm sorry that I made a choice to walk away from my abusers.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Like, yeah, well, and they made it sound like, well, that's just kind of normal. Parent our kids slowly grow like separate from their parents. This is kind of a normal thing. I'm like, no, I I used to talk to my mom every single day. And if anything ever like happened, or you know, if we had a dispute or something, I was the one that always called her. Be like, we should talk about this. Why are you acting this way? Can we please fix this? And so the last time, the last time, I did not call her, I did not chase her. I was like, I'm actually gonna see if she tries, I'm gonna see if she reaches out, I'm gonna see if she actually acts like a big girl and initiates a conversation. Yeah, and tries to be a parent. And guess what? Nope. She didn't for a full year. And she actually started um playing this little game with me where she I have a sister and she doesn't see my sister as much. My sister lives really far away, but I'm the favorite child, so she and obviously because I'm the one that made her feel so good. And so um she started actually talking to my sister more, and she went to see my sister and was sending pictures. And I was like, Oh, I see what you're doing. You're trying to make me feel jealous. You're trying to let me see that you're spending time with the child you neglected, and and so it was not that long after that I blocked her. I was like, I'm not doing this with you. If you don't have the courage to actually call me and just say, Let's how let's talk about this. Um did I did I hurt you? Or I'm sorry, never, never I'm sorry. So that's uh kind of how it ended. And she's never even tried since the no contact. I think it's been three years. I mean, I've gone almost homeless, I've moved, I've been really sick, and she's not even tried to see if I'm okay. So it really is her. There's been a lot of grief around it, a lot of a lot of anger. Yeah. Very angry, disappointed. But um, but I know the truth now, and I know how much I put into that relationship, and it's really opened my eyes to the type of mom I want to be. And you know, and it's helped me to really go into parts of myself that felt I didn't really realize how emotionally neglected I was by my mother.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Well, yeah, you had um because your father was so scary, yeah, it was like you kind of had created a fairy tale about your mom because you needed someone, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah, yeah. When every time she she was hurt or she was scared or she was upset, I went and I took care of her and helped her and made me feel like I had a connection with somebody and that I was being loved and seen and like I had a mother. But now that as an adult and I look back, I'm I'm there's just so many moments where I was like, where was my mother? Where was she actually? Like, where was she? And then why didn't she do anything about my brother really physically hurting me sometimes? And I would tell her, and she'd be like, Oh, well, that's what boys do. Yeah, and I'm like Well, that's what they said about the sexual abuse too. Yeah, yeah. That um was actually from my aunt when I was older, and I started telling the family what I experienced and what I went through and why I don't talk to my older brother. And my aunt was her um comment was well, that's what boys do at that age. And I was just shocked that she said that. And I was like, my brother was 10. I was seven. That is actually not normal. I have children that are 13 and 11. That's actually not normal at all. Yeah, no, it's not. So there's just been a lot of parts of myself that I've had to go in and just really feel this like anger and grief, but also these parts of myself that never felt saved. Uh I didn't have parents, I didn't have protection. So yeah. I don't know why we started talking about my mom, but we did.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

There you go. Well, we were just talking about that, how you have that need to justify yourself when you're a survivor of abuse if you talk about being abused. Yeah. It's like the abusers are never put on trial and asked to prove their innocence, but survivors are. They are put on trial and asked to prove that they have been hurt.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

And it's pretty nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

And that the hurt justifies the words used.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Yeah, it's um it's taken me a long time to be able to even talk about this stuff. I mean, I remember the um I had jury duty maybe 10 years ago, and it was for a girl, a young girl, that had been sexually molested by a stepfather. I think she was 15. And you could you can raise your hand and you can say, I can't be a part of this jury because of an experience, or I absolutely already find him guilty. I wouldn't even raise my hand. I was like, no, I'm not even gonna raise my hand, and then acknowledge that I even went through that. I was like, I don't want all these people to know that I went through this. I'm like, I'm not gonna like be become a victim. And now I look back and I was like, oh yeah, we had some trauma. I thought I was being strong, but now I look back and I'm like, oh yeah, honey, we were just we were so traumatized. We were so afraid of letting people see that parts of ourselves. And yeah, um, but yeah, you still get shaky, you still get afraid to talk about it, you're still afraid you're gonna be accused of the bad guy and that you did something wrong, and you still feel like you're not safe.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Um, yeah, but but talking also is so healing. Oh yeah, it's really helped me to um kind of move some of that angle.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Yeah, yeah, it moves it moves a lot of the emotions, but it also it it it like validates reality. It does. It's like, no, this really did happen and it was really bad, and shockingly so, actually.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, there's been many times when I've made a video or listened to our podcast, and I actually am listening to myself talk about it, and I'm like, oh, you know, that was actually really bad. That was that sounds really bad. Yeah. And I always just tell myself, I uh, and that's I even think when we met, I told you, I'm like, ah yeah, I had a really great childhood, really happy with some really dark pieces. That's what I always saw at my childhood as. And now I'm just like, wow, that was really fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

That was uh that was a really dark childhood. Well, that's what's so interesting for me about going into different family dynamics, is it feels like each family has a story that's like their family story that's there that everyone kind of has agreed upon and everyone has their part that they're playing in that. Yeah. And so as you like go into different family dynamics, you have to figure out where you're gonna fit in that story, or they will like they assign you a role or what whatever. Yeah, and if you push back at all against the narrative, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Well, my mom used to always say she knew there was something special about me. She's like, I just always thought you were really special, and there's just something about you, and she's like, I know you're really strong, and and she's used that, she's kept me really close because of that. Um and but now she doesn't have it anymore, and I don't think she's doing too well. So well, it's kind of like a vampire or a leech just feeding on someone else, yeah. Yeah, so and I'm like, you're right, I am, I am all of these things, but I'm not giving it away anymore.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Because when you're in their story, everyone else is kind of validating that false reality. Yeah. And you feel crazy. Yeah, or you feel like you're the bad guy, you know. This is why scapegoats, victims, we take on this identity of like I'm the problem.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Because everyone tells you you are.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

All the time, and you believe it. And and then just, you know, you get perimenopause, your body's wiped out, worn out, sick, and you have no energy. Your abusive ex left you for a hot dog. A hot dog, yeah. Yep. And you just like, you know, fuck it.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

I just don't care anymore, and I'm gonna start talking. Yeah, that's what we call the replacement because it's uh hot dog's a really easy meal. Yeah, well, he needed someone easy. So when you just need an easy meal, you have a hot dog. Someone easy just to like you give your best years and children and body to this man, and he leaves you for a hot dog.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

He leaves you for a hot dog. Well, you just needed someone to feel sorry for him and believe his story and then make him feel better whenever he needs it. But I don't know, the hot dog will only last for so long.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Yeah, I it's interesting with with people and their healing journeys, and like we were talking in the beginning of the episode, how so many of the people we've worked with, they just are like, nope, don't want to do it. Actually, I don't mind being depressed too bad. Or whatever it is, you know. I don't mind the narrative I'm living in.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

And I'm like, well, I mean, your choice. Like, if that's what you want to do, okay. But you know, it's you're you're not gonna be happy, and you might get sick one day, or maybe you're already sick. You're probably a lot of them already are getting sick. Or you're just gonna continue being around a lot of abusive people who take advantage of you.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah, and so it's kind of like we were just talking about how you know you've started to do this work, but it took a lot of really hard things. It did, and that was the same thing for me. Like, life just had to, you know, we had to kind of have those rock bottom moments, those really dark nights of the soul. When you just want to give up. To force us to look at those false narratives that we are participating in. The fantasies, the stories, and to be able to make the mess of our lives in order to break free. And make that choice to all right, well, I'm gonna get back up and we're not gonna do this shit anymore and pull myself out of this and but part of setting yourself free, I think, is realizing the other people's work, their healing, it's not something you have any control over, any power over. It's like we've said we've we've worked with a lot of people over what five years about. We've been working together, yeah, doing trauma work.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

And well, it's like the same with like your children too. Like you realize they have to figure some things out, or they have to just go through the narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

And it's not even a negative reflection on the person. It's just, you know, it really sucks. Doing the deep trauma work is really painful. Yeah, you can't do it for them. No, and you do it when you're ready to do it, or sometimes you don't do it at all. Yeah. And so getting hung up in your own journey, waiting for someone else, whether it's a spouse or a friend or a parent, to do their work. It's wasted energy. Yeah, you it's not a statement about them being a bad person or a good person, it's just where they're at, and there's nothing you can do about it.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah, you can stay stuck with them, like you can keep waiting for them, but you're just gonna be in that forever until maybe, maybe they'll do it, but then you're gonna waste all this time. Sometimes they're not doing the work because you're staying there with them. Yeah. I felt that with um when I went no contact with most of my family, like there's like one cousin I still talk to, but I like some of my like family members were not as bad, but they were playing the game, and I just knew I'm like, the only way for you to do your work is for me to be completely out of this mess and chaos altogether, and so I had to. I had to like just walk away from everybody in order to have freedom and have peace in my life, but also just to know like I'm not gonna be your guys' parents anymore, because that really is kind of the role I have in my family, too. I'm like, it's time for you guys to all grow up and go see your wives and siblings and parents. You go figure it out. See your patterns, see your patterns. I'm not gonna do this for you guys anymore. And it sucked, it hurt. It was like probably one of the most painful things I've ever done in my life.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

But well, that's the thing is like they need the scapegoat. It they need you in the dynamic to support the narrative, to support the false story. Yeah, and if you take yourself out of that, then it creates this chaos, but it's also the only way they have a chance, an opportunity to see themselves, yeah, to see their patterns is if we remove ourselves from the equation.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Well, yeah, I think I was like the also the cozy blanket, the one that makes them feel better, or well, you become an enabler at a certain point if you continue to engage. That's another great thing to even talk about is being the enabler. Yeah, that's why you have to like walk away and let them figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Yeah, because you'll end up enabling uh abusers and the harm that they're doing to other people if you continue to interact with them. And a lot of times we don't think about that. How the fact that we have not drawn a hard boundary with this person, we are giving them credibility, yeah, or we are giving them like this cushion, yeah, so they're not feeling all the way the damage that they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah, again, it's like being that blanket, it's like the cup, comfy, cozy thing, and so they don't have to fill it all the way. Well, well, you take that away, they're gonna fill it. It's like a little toddler losing its favorite little blanket and they have a big O tantrum.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Yeah, it's the only way people do their work is if um everyone stops making it so comfortable for them to not do their work. Yeah, it we reward as a society, we reward people who are toxic and who are unhealthy, and this is why people aren't doing the work. This is why we have like a narcissism epidemic. It's because they get money and fame for being horrible.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

They do. It's god, it's even in like movies and shit, it's just everywhere. Yeah, and it's like this really needs to it needs to stop, and that's why you know the ones that are actually really doing the work are like, wow, there's really not a lot of people out there. No, it's pretty lonely because there's not a real lot of really authentic people self-reflecting and taking accountability.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

You age, you get tired, you get very menopause. Yeah, you don't get rich and famous for it.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

You well, the the reward is that you feel you feel good inside, and you have joy in your life. Yeah, joy in your life, and you have good people around you. And if you're a parent, you're probably giving your kids a better job.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Yeah, like you're not carrying forward these abuse patterns with your children, with the friends in your life, with your family.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Yeah, it's like you have peace in your life, like life feels good, like it's not stressful. You get to just have a happy, quiet environment, home, and it's like I don't know what to do with this. It's kind of boring. It's kind of boring. Life gets kind of boring, and it's great, but it's great because I'd rather have that than the anxiety and then the like panic attacks that come in sometimes, and then the chaos, and just not feeling it like enough.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

And well, I we just forget so often. We think that we're the only one we're hurting is ourselves when we engage in these patterns and these toxic cycles. It's only hurting us, but in reality, we're hurting everyone. Everyone around us. Because the toxic person is not they're being enabled, uh-huh, and they're being enabled and hurting others, and you're hurting yourself, which means you're not showing up for people that need you to show up because you're giving everything to this toxic personality. And so we think we're just self-sacrificing, and it's so noble, and it's just us that's gonna be falling on the sword. But when you hurt yourself, you hurt everyone.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

It's that same idea of like you lift yourself up by lifting everyone up, uh as within, so without. Like what you're doing internally affects everyone around you.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Yeah, so that's why we have this podcast. So free woman. Free woman. This is why we've created this because you know, we're trying to reach out to others. There's not that many out there, but they are out there.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

You are not alone. There are other women and a few men, and some men.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

I'd like to, you know, it'd be great to meet some of those men because they're like very far and in between.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

I mean, they all are just healthy people who are taking accountability for their decisions, or fewer far between. But they are. But they are there, and we are here, and we will continue to be here.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

We will continue to be here, and we will continue talking and being courageous and brave and talking about all the shit we've been through. So stay tuned.