The Joy of Community Singing with Choirstarter James Sills | Episode 5

Today we’re joined by James Sills, musician, vocal leader, and author of Do Sing, for a joyful conversation about the simple but powerful act of singing together. James has spent the last decade bringing people together in festivals, schools, workplaces, pubs, and cathedrals — proving that singing isn’t about performance or perfection, but connection, participation, and shared human experience.

We explore how singing can break down loneliness, strengthen community, and boost mental wellbeing — all while reminding us that everyone can sing. From football terraces and school assemblies to choirs like The Sofa Singers, James shares why rediscovering our voices might be one of the easiest and most uplifting ways to reconnect with each other.

In this episode:

• Meet James Sills: Musician, vocal leader, and author dedicated to making singing accessible to everyone.
• Why Singing Matters: How group singing fosters belonging, connection, and mental wellbeing.
• Singing Without Pressure: Debunking the myth of being “tone-deaf” and rediscovering your voice.
• The Power of Community: From football terraces to choirs, how singing builds social bonds.
• Science of Singing: Why group singing can synchronise heartbeats and reduce loneliness.
• The Sofa Singers: How online choirs are bringing thousands of people together in song.
• Singing in Schools: Why bringing music back into education matters for confidence and community.
• An Everyday Joy: How anyone can reclaim singing at any stage of life — no experience required.

The Ways to connect:

www.james-sills.com

Doo Sing book

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Jon or Harry with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-growth-collective-uk

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Would you say you're a curious person? Do you have a burning passion that not many people know about? Have you really frustrated your personal life or career? This podcast is for you. Welcome to the gallery, the podcast for inquisitive minds from the Grove Collective. I'm your host, Harry Made. People, places, and purpose lead Timedic Range and Environmental Consultancy. And I'm joined by co-host John Perry, managing director of Timetic Range and founder of the Colin Less Podcast. Each month we'll be talking with some incredible people to hear their stories and to learn from their experiences, to inspire your own personal growth and to ignite collective action. We can't wait to share these conversations with you. So let's begin. Our guest today is James Sills, choir starter, author of Do Sing, TEDx speaker, and founder of Sofa Singers. He's someone who's dedicated his life to helping people reconnect with themselves and with each other through song. James talks us through his recent work with BBC and how he's bringing this practice into the world of business. This is a conversation about community, courage, what becomes possible when we stop worrying about how we sound, start listening to each other. Let's begin. Welcome to the gathering. Really grateful to have you on the pod and having met you in person now and seeing the impact that your work can have on a group of people. I'm very aware that there's like a there's a huge untapped power here that I think is waiting to be unleashed. So yeah, I'm looking forward to getting into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Totally, yeah. I mean, like, I I I really think that singing is like a superpower contained within all of us. Yeah. Excited to unpack that with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

I got to witness it firsthand. So I first met you, James, last year, 2025 Do you whales, where I was singing in front of you under your instruction, and it was a real moment actually. So for me, I guess this is the whole intention. It was the connection and the joy over those three days, and the energy shift between sometimes quite impactful talks or presentations, and then you're back in the room getting us singing, getting us collectively and enjoying ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Back back in the room and kind of maybe like back in our bodies a bit and out of our heads a little bit, and um, like say, like a shift of energy, shift of state. Um, yeah, I love it. And and actually um that kind of format, you know, I kind of developed with with David and Claire at the do lectures and through some of their other events over a number of years, and and that's actually the the format that I now you know kind of take into companies and organizations and uh and the format that you know um when I did your your uh your your winter solstice last month that we found to be really effective rather than just kind of like one huge kind of chunk, just like lots of small little kind of sections of you know, just five or ten minutes of just these little kind of like energy breaks, brain breaks, and just to kind of scaffold the experience like that. But yeah, the you know the the the do lex do lectures has been a really foundational part of my work actually.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

That's great, and it's one of the reasons we want to get you into our team day and talk to you today is to share it with more people, and as a bit of a workout for yourself before we start, we always start with some quick fire questions, whatever comes straight into your head. Not a physical workout, just mental workout. So I'm gonna fire them at you now. So do you prefer home or away?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Oh my goodness. Uh can I can I say both? I mean, I kind of I kind of feel like one enhances the other, like sweet and sour, you know. Um like I you know, I there's definitely you know, the kind of the slightly restless troubadour musician part of me just loves being away. Like I love traveling, I love being on tour, I love travelling to new places, meeting new people, meeting new musicians. Um, but you know, I think I love it more because I know I can come home. And um I you know, I'd I I've sometimes the balance you know might be tipped too far one way or the other, and you know, I can I can feel like I'm I'm itching to get out and see the world, or I can feel like I'm really itching to get home. So I'm gonna I'm gonna say both if that's allowed. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

It's a common response, and totally agree with you that reflecting at home on where you have been is so important, and that comfort and familiarity of home is is incredible, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, it's like you know, the um you know it's like you know, if you look at like attachment theory and psychology, it's like when you have a secure base, you're then kind of free to go out and explore the world and and you feel free, you know, kind of free and safe to do so. And I kind of feel you know, kind of the same way, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Okay, next one might be easier tea, coffee, or herbal.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Oh well, I mean, what time of day are we talking? Sorry, this is gonna take up the whole podcast.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

You must you must have to drink a lot of herbal tea to keep your voice in check.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Uh yes, this is a good point. Uh yes, yeah, and that's very true. I mean, look, coffee first thing in the morning, like it's uh non-negotiable. I've got three young kids, um, you know, and coffee is just delicious, let's face it. So, you know, I'm I'm like on the spectrum of coffee, being a coffee snob, I'm probably fairly high up with that. But I mean, there's nothing like a cup of tea, like, you know, there's nothing like sitting down, someone making you a cup of tea. You know, there's so much love in a cup of tea, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Um, it's an unfair choice.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

We won't make you distinguish. So uh I'm sorry, this might be my answer for all your questions.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Okay, then let's try this one. Slippers, socks, or bare feet.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Well, at the minute, definitely slippers, because it's winter, but um as soon as spring comes around, bare feet the hallway. Like we're really lucky, we live out in the hills in North Wales, and we can go straight from our back door and into our backfield, and just yeah, to feel grounded, feel the earth under your feet is is is beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

You might have answered the next one with your location. So north, south, or midlands.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Well, I mean, north, I'm a northerner. I mean, absolutely. I, you know, if you if I had to identify as one of those, but actually, my family, my dad's side of the family is from the Midlands, um, my mum's side of the family is Cornish. I now live in Wales, I was born in Yorkshire. So uh, you know, I I am I'm a creature of the North. I I think I probably would identify as a Celt more than anything else, you know? Yeah. Over over over nationality. Um, but yeah, I'm yeah, definitely a northern lad. Mornings or nights? Mornings these days. Don't know if it's an age thing, but yeah, mornings.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Most of our guests have said that. They've reluctantly said, yeah, mornings.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Oh mornings.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Who have I become party or pamper?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Well, I it depends what your definition of a pamper is, I suppose. I mean, like, my idea of a pamper is going out into the woods and having a sauna and jumping in some cold water, um, which is like a party for the senses. I'd probably say pamper, really. Like pamper on my own terms. I'm I'm I'm not kind of just like brilliant at things like parties and talking to people that I don't know, and I'm kind of a secret introvert, really. I'm an introvert who likes to be on stage. So yeah, I'll go for a pamper, please.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yeah, I often use that term. I often feel like a confident introvert. Yeah. And the last one is like nature or people, which is unfair because I know we're one of the same. So link to that, it's kind of do you have any favourite spots or memories of nature or people that really stick with you?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah, all of those. I mean, I think um I think it's really important with nature just to to find the joy in the everyday. Like we think nature is you know like a peak of a mountain or a an amazing sunset, and all those things are important, but I've you know, I've just I've just dropped my kids off at school, and there's just a really lovely woodland, it's is in an old quarry that's been kind of rewilded, it's just beautiful, you know. So I've just just been for a walk there for 45 minutes, and I you know, I kind of think it it's important that we all find our ways to access that. So um natural people, I don't know. I'm gonna I'm gonna go with I'm gonna go with nature. I I really like people, but I've never met a tree that I don't like. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

I don't know. I've had a few arguments with them with the Hawthorne.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, well that's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

And it it's it's supposed to be difficult, isn't it? Because you yeah, if you're having to decide between these things, actually just wants to be a good thing. It's good, it's provocative. I guess that's what it was. When did you first realize that singing could be more than performance? Actually, it was about people.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah, I think my first introduction to group singing w was absolutely all about people and community and connection and not about performance, because my my first really kind of visceral memory of singing as part of a big group was on the football terraces with my dad, age five. Um, and I just remember it being this amazing moment where there were just all these kind of like levels of connection going on. And of course, this only really makes sense in retrospect. I just what I remember is the feeling and the sensation, but being part of this huge group, being part of all these voices, standing shoulder to shoulder with my dad, you know, all supporting the same team, you know, representing the team wearing the shirt, and then also, you know, just being aware this was like the same terraces where my dad stood with his dad and and all that kind of thing. And and and the the singing experience wasn't about you know it being good or or it being about a performance, it was about saying, look, we're together, we're behind the team. Uh, and I kind of like have a kind of a theory that whenever you know we sing and we're not kind of thinking specifically about the performative aspect that actually that's incredibly liberating. So I kind of think about like singing lullabies to young children, like we don't tend to get hang-ups about how we're singing it because it's got a higher purpose, which is to actually you know soothe the child or to get get the child to sleep or or that kind of thing, or like when you're sitting around, maybe sitting around a campfire, maybe you're on holiday or you're at a festival and everyone's singing, it's not about the performance, it's it's about being there in the moment, and and it's that that kind of aspect of singing that I just try to bring into all of the work that I do that like to forefront the the experiential aspects and it not be about getting it right or getting it wrong, like you're getting it right if it feels good, that's the getting it right.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

And did you feel did you feel the enjoyment in it as a child? Did you feel safe to sing at school? I know for me singing was part of the day. There were hymns and the in the assembly room at the start of the day. It's very much part of my schooling, and it actually felt really safe to sing at school. But I know that isn't the experience for everyone, it can be daunting or you know, challenging. But for you, was it was it an enjoyment? Did you think actually I really get something from singing?

SPEAKER_00 11:28

I don't know if I got something. I think maybe the enjoyment came later, but it was just normalized, and I think that's probably the most important thing. It was normalized, it was just part of the everyday, a bit like I said about you know, experiencing everyday nature. You know, it I grew up in an age where I kind of realised now it was a little bit of a golden age of singing in schools, you know. I was it was just a little village primary school in West Yorkshire where I grew up, you know. But yeah, we sung in assembly most days, and actually we had two teachers in the school who both played piano, so you know, we were accompanied, and it's been really interesting. I've been thinking back to it because that there's a terrific guy, you might have seen him called James Partridge, who um has this show called Primary School Bangers, where he got kind of recreates. Have you? You've been, yeah. Um I've uh done a couple of podcasts with James, and you know, we we're on similar missions, but you know, using slightly different means to do that. But it's kind of made me realize that maybe that was quite a golden age because he's bringing people together, probably of a similar generation to you know to ourselves, Jonathan, and getting people just reconnecting with that feeling of singing those songs again. So, look, when I brought when yeah, when I grew up, singing was just normalized, it was just part of my everyday. We sang in school, I went to my village church, we sung in church, sang on the football terraces with my dad, and I just didn't really think about it. It wasn't something that I was taking grades in, I didn't study. But then if you contrast that to, you know, I had um you know music lessons growing up. Um, my management was a trombone, so I was like playing the trombone, doing all the grades, playing in orchestras, and actually that was something where there was more of a sense of, oh, this is about getting it right or wrong and learning scales. So there was like you know, there's more pressure, I guess, in that arena. Um, I mean it was mainly pressure, I was putting on myself, you know, it wasn't any huge pressure from from anywhere else. But I guess what I'm saying is because I wasn't thinking of singing in the same way, I just thought that well, this is just something that I do, and I suppose looking back, you know, singing was just an extension of me being part of those communities. So, like when I was in school, just singing was an extension of that. You know, when I was in church, it was an extension of that. When I was at the football, it was part of that experience. So I didn't kind of really separate it out of something separate, I think. And I think again, there's there's there's a really valuable lesson in there about just bringing it into the everyday, just like everyday exercise. Like, don't be a weekend warrior, like you don't have to wait for the weekend to go for a big run, just like go out for 15 minutes, or you know, just like integrate it in into your routine, like normalize it, and then suddenly it doesn't become so daunting. So it was so singing was just a regular part of my upbringing, but also, and I think this is probably the most important thing is that I wasn't put off or put down or tapped on the shoulder and told to mine because that has happened to so many people, it's a f it's so common, and you know, and when I'm working with companies and organizations, I often will throw that question out like who's been told that, you know, who's been led to believe that, and it you know, it really kind of breaks my heart, you know, because it's so damaging, it does it causes so much damage at such a young age, and it can really put people off for life. Um, and in my in my book, I write about the I had a similar experience, but with with running with um, it was my P teacher. I I can just remember it like it was yesterday, you know. And I was you know, like I I love team sports, I love ball, you know, I love football, you play rugby and tennis. You know, I was I was a bit overweight as a kid, I was heavily asthmatic. So like running wasn't my thing, right? And I just remember my P teacher, you know, just shouting at me saying, you know, come on, cells, you know, my toddler can waddle faster, you can sprint or something. And then guess what? I didn't run for like the next 25 years or something, you know, because you internalize it, you remember it, and I use that as an example because that's so many people's experience with singing. So I'm just so grateful that you know that I was never tapped on the shoulder and told to mime because that's all it takes to put somebody off.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah, I mean, and particularly at that impressionable age as well, where you're um far more vulnerable, you know, still finding your place in the world. Because I'm getting PTSD from remembering just running at school, just similar experience. I was the overweight, asthmatic kid in the inner group at the back as well. God, I hate this, and really, you know, I'm trying my best, but I know I'm not good. But you're constantly being made to feel that you are lacking and you're not enough in that moment. And I think you know, if that can if that can sort of manifest in your relationship at a young age and you create sort of quite unhealthy associations with with an activity or or something. I wonder how how relatable that is to, like you say, singing. And that that leads me on to my question around um more broadly in your experience, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have about their own voice?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

The biggest misconception is is that they can't sing. So you know, there are variations of this. You know, I'm turned deaf, a cart carry a tune in a bucket, you wouldn't want to hear my voice. Like people are very, very quick to be disparaging about their own voices, and it's it's really interesting, and then in some ways it may well be like a self-defense mechanism because when we sing we're we're making ourselves vulnerable. Uh, that's a perceived um new judgment. But um, you know, just from what I know from 20 years of running singing in all, you know, for pretty much all demographics, you know, schools, um, community groups, um, you know, I've worked with homeless groups, with with with returning war veterans, done you know, extensive work with companies and CEOs, I've taught football fans to teach opera, you know, like that there's been a very broad canvas of the people that I've worked with. And what I can say is this idea of tone-deafness at worst, it's it's uh been out of practice and it's been asked to sing in a way that doesn't suit their voice, or sing in a a range that doesn't suit their voice. So, like, you know, my my starting point is like, well, let's begin where you're at, you know, let's just like start with what we've got. Um, because uh you know this idea of tone-deafness is based on an idea. So, I mean, so tone deafness, um you're familiar with that term, right? Yeah, yeah, it is kind of short, it is the the clinical term for tone deafness is amusia, and and if if you um live with amusia, it means that you derive no pleasure from music because all all you know notes of the musical scale just sound jumbled and they're equal to you. So listening to music is really unpleasant. Um, and so you know, and it's a it's a kind of a processing, it's it's something to to do with your processing, but uh, but actually when we say that we're tone-deaf, it just probably means that we you know are just not used to tuning into our own voice, listening to our own voice, and actually that's why singing in a group um and singing in a choir is such a brilliant way to support that because quite often people think okay, I want to learn to sing, I'm a bit apprehensive, I'll go and have one-to-one singing lessons, and you know, in some ways that's really exposing because you're just there going one-to-one. Um, and actually, the beauty of a of a choir is that you're supported and you're part of something bigger, and you get the whole social element and that kind of thing. So I'm a huge advocate of kind of you know finding your you know, a group in which you feel comfortable singing, and then just kind of getting stuck in. Like, I'm not saying there's not a place for individual singing teachers, of course, but I think if you're in that stage where you're feeling apprehensive, you just want to dip your toe in the water. I think um actually finding a group where you feel supported and you feel held and you feel seen and it's at the right kind of level for where you're at and it's got the same aspirations as you, I think that can be a really powerful catalyst to help people overcome that idea of tone-deafness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

I was saying just just related to that, would you would you say that would be the same for for kids as well? Children just embarking on their love of singing. I mean, I've noticed my my four-year-old singing some hymns that she clearly sings at school, you know, just when she's absent-mindedly wandering around the house and it's very sweet and think, and then I'm transported back to when I was in primary school singing those same hymns that that haven't changed. Just seeing that confidence that she has just to just to sing. Um, and I'm wondering what what what would be would your advice remain the same for kids and and children as well to to it's it's sort of foster that love of singing?

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, I mean, my advice for kids and children is just is just do it and enjoy it, and um, you know, if it feels good, keep doing it, you know. And it's it's really hard because I think around end of primary school, beginning of secondary school, so around, you know, kind of 11, 12, you know, so much starts to change, you become so much more self-aware. Um, you know, and and I really understand that. And that's a really big fall-off point for all young people, but particularly boys, because you know, boys experience voice change and that brings its own challenges with singing as well. So we do see a huge fall-off. Um, and actually, you're directly related to this, um, that there's a there's a couple of brilliant new initiatives that I'm kind of fully behind and and hopefully gonna get more involved with that have launched this year. One is with the BBC called Get Singing, and that's aimed at 11 to 14-year-olds who recognise that fall-off and want to support that. Uh, and then the other one is uh a campaign called Acquire in Every School, led by the Music Teachers Association. And again, I'm gonna be getting involved with that. And they're both recognising the holistic benefits of singing, whilst at the same time recognizing that there's a big fall-off and that resources in schools going into music and singing are shrinking. So that's kind of the picture. But what I would also say is like particularly those people who are leading singing in in schools. I mean, first of all, hats off to them because there are so many pressures on teachers, and I know because I used to be one, um, that to prioritize music and singing in a school for a start is fantastic. But also, you have to be really careful about the songs that you choose and that they're going to be suitable for children's voices. So, for example, my kids at the minute are listening to K pop Demon Hunters, I'm sure, like you know, pretty much all the soundtracks or that. And got you know, golden like which is the big song, goes up to a top A, like that's top A like an octave and a bit above middle C, which is just you know it's not the kind of note that you should be encouraging young. Kids to be going for, like Let It Go from Frozen, which is another big song. I'm not saying like it's irresponsible of uh you know these like huge entertainment companies, but actually, you know, their songs that are not really designed to be sung by by young by young voices, they uh you know they the people to sing in those songs are the equivalent of like marathon runners or whatever, you know. So, like to go back to the running analogy, like we need an entry point for singers of all ages where it's the equivalent of like joining your Parkrun or something like that. And I actually think you know the there's many levels in which Parkrun is such a wonderful metaphor for what we can what we could achieve with with singing as well. So it's like uh you know, going back to that question about what's the biggest misconception about singing is that the other thing is that you don't have to sing like the elite singers of the world, like Beyonce or Adele or whatever, who have the training and have put the time in and have the physiology to hit those big notes. So that's kind of probably the first thing that I would always say to people working with with young voices, particularly, you know, if they say that it's like a music coordinator in a primary school, they're not music trained, but they just want to support music making. Like I would always really encourage that, but also encourage finding songs that are gonna suit um the range of young voices, so people aren't, you know, A, aren't gonna damage their voices and strain and push too much, but B, not be dissuaded because they're trying to sing things that are just like you know, incredibly technical. So that's why going back to what you say, Harry, about you know, singing the old hymns, and you know, it's like go back to songs that are designed to be sung by big groups of people. So it's like that's why football songs are a brilliant example of that, you know. Musically speaking, if I'd put like my uh analytical hat on, you know, they have a really small vocal range. So most songs on the football terrace, and I know because I'm I'm you know I still go regularly to the football, they've got a vocal range of maybe like a fifth or a sixth, which is like five notes or six notes. Um, and it's you know, hymns and kind of carols and folk songs, they're all songs that have developed to be sung by big groups of people, by amateur singers, if for want of a better term, and and not professional singers. So, again, I would always point to those songs as a starting point, uh, or you know, or traditional music as well. Um, you know, traditional music from all different types of cultures. I've you know, I teach a lot of songs from the South African tradition, um, again, because it's music that is developed to be sung by big groups of people who aren't necessarily technicians or kind of professional singers. That's another long answer, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

I can't tell you, right? That's at school, actually. I was introduced, we we sang at school, but then we had a choir club, and they were very much big anthems. And actually, I remember our choir teacher encouraged us to all sing the competing football club anthems across the West Midlands because there was five or six clubs, it was a really great way of getting the kids involved and having this sing off of their club's anthem, and it was for me, it was a great way to learn how to sing, and it was it was fun. And I guess I was gonna ask you that in your life as part of your story. Did you you mentioned earlier about you know, maybe how you deal with crowds of people, how you deal with your own sort of personality around large groups of people? So, how did you find your like your journey linked to sort of confidence building and anxiety around singing? Do you find that you gradually use singing actually to use it as your sort of like this is my superpower? I can feel confident when I'm singing, or did that just develop over time? Because your your stage presence now is so strong and you look so confident in front of people, or is it still a work on? Is it still in there and it's just something you you tackle every day in terms of confidence?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

When I stand up in front of a group of people to lead them, the confidence it's kind of like you know, I I think my style is kind of like a calm confidence. So my style isn't to come in and be like all jazz hands and let's you know be like Tony Robbins or something and just like get people fired up. You know, I kind of like to invite people in in a very kind of gentle way and bring them along with me, and that you know, that isn't um that isn't an act, and uh and that's something that I feel like I've just developed very gradually over the years, and that's the style that I've found not only that I feel most comfortable leading in, but it's the style that most people seem to respond the best to as well. Um, and I think that's just through like you know, 20 years of leading different musical groups. Like, you know, the first time I stood up and led a musical ensemble um was my first second year of university. I was doing a music degree in Liverpool, uh, and I I was invited to conduct it's like a it was like a community win band on a Saturday morning, like a Saturday morning music centre, and you had like you know, kids who were learning, sat alongside their parents, sat alongside retirees, and I just uh you know, I just kind of really enjoyed being in that position, and I think um that there's something about being in that position it as a musical leader where um maybe because it's quite a boundary space, like I know what the rules are, like I just feel really comfortable. It's it's almost like I think often you you speak to a lot of musicians or comedians, you know, they feel really comfortable on the stage, and it's not necessarily because they're like in the limelight and they they need like an ego massage, but it's kind of like I know the rules of engagement here, you know, and um, you know, and and and that so I I think I've always felt quite comfortable in that space, and you know, there's been so many iterations of it over the years, you know. I've I my first experiences were working with instrumental groups, so orchestras, you know, wind bands, swing bands, and I I just kind of fell into leading a choir by accident um in my early 20s. It was a primary school in Liverpool in Everton, and uh you know, they said, Oh, could you just do some singing with the with after after school? And and basically it ended up being about 85% boys, and they all came and they just got stuck in and and they loved it. And it was just really fun and and and joyful, and uh, you know, that that was I guess that was a pretty formative experience, and um, it's just kind of gone from there, but it's just been a very, very gradual build, and I suppose specifically related to my confidence as a vocal leader, like there's been certain building blocks in my life that have been really foundational that have given me you know not just the leadership experience because I think you know, I've like I say I've spent a long time in the classroom prior to going to freelance. I've spent a long time leading musical groups, but actually, in terms of a singing technician, you know, I I sang for a few years in a fantastic a cappella choir in Liverpool called Sans of Sound, where I just learned so much, and then off the back of that, I was invited to join a group or audition and uh join a group called the Spooky Man's Chorale, which is uh an all-male a cappella group. And and I've been touring the world with that amazing group for the last 14 years, and and that really I think has given me the foundation to go out and to lead others in singing because I've just I've really put in the hours with that group, you know. I've done hundreds of gigs over the years, we've led workshops, we've sung on festival stages, we've you know, we've we've sung everywhere. Um, it it's you know, and it continues to be a massive part of my life, and so I kind of I you know I I guess I gain so much from that experience, and I know through singing with that group what it feels like to belong and connect with others through singing, and that's what I then want to help create for other people, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yeah, and the confidence in something you love, isn't it? That's where the confidence comes from. You you you live and breathe singing and the voice, and that's giving you confidence because it's yours, it's like yeah, like you say, you belong to it.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Um I think so, and I think just like on a really kind of um pragmatic level, like I just know that it works. Like, I know and you know, it you know, it it's often when I come into you know, like I'm the energizer at a conference and people aren't expecting it or whatever. But I often say to people, like, look, honestly, I've got a hundred percent success rate, like just trust me, like we'll get there, you know. And and and like I said earlier in the conversation, I've worked with so many different groups over the over my career, and I just know that everyone has it in them. So I kind of go in with that belief, with that innate belief, that everyone can sing, and it's my job to find the right way, the right song, the right approach, the right humour, whatever it is, to get people to that point where they feel comfortable singing together. And yeah, sometimes it takes a bit longer, sometimes you have to try a few more things out, but that that's kind of part of the enjoyment as well, is like figuring it out. Like I never go in with a completely fixed plan of how it's gonna go and what material I'm gonna use because you might need to adapt it. It's like it's like yeah, it's like a stand-up comedian, you know, maybe they've got their routine, but you know, they need to be prepared to be flexible and and work with the room and work with who they've got in front of them, and and that's why you know enjoy the fluidity of that and and the you know so it that means each time it really is different, you know, and that keeps it fresh.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Amazing. Um, can we talk about Do You Sing? So TG, we love a do book, we absolutely love them. I'm holding it holding it here in my hands. Yeah, this is I'm holding it up now. Um they are lovely things. So do you sing? Subtitle Reclaim Your Voice, Find Your Singing Tribe. Can you tell us what you were setting out to to solve with this with this book?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

What I wanted to do with the book was to bring singing into a more mainstream conversation around health, well-being, self-care, whatever you want to call it, and it not be in a silo, because one of the many problems of the singing world and the musical world, and particularly the classical musical world, is that it often exists in silos and it exists in echo chambers, and there's perceived um barriers to access. And so, what I wanted the book to do was to kind of open the door to people to say, Look, singing is for you, okay. And and actually, it's not about the singing, it's about this, you know. So it was it for me, it was a real opportunity to bring singing and bring my experiences to a much wider audience. And you know, I was a huge fan of the do book series before I was even asked to do a talk, let alone asked to write a book. So it really was a dream come true to be asked to write the book, and I think the real beauty of the do book series is that it introduces um you know these very kind of niche topics um to a broad readership, and and that's I suppose what I've always been interested with music making and singing, particularly, it's about taking this thing that that I'm a specialist in and that I've got a lot of experience of and opening it out to as many people as possible, you know. So that's why you know I I said at the beginning of the conversation that the doolexes has been a massive part of my kind of journey. And I think when I gave my talk in 2018, which led to the book, that was one of the first times that I'd kind of stepped out of the music education world or the choir world, and you know, it felt like a massive risk because like why are a hundred people in this, you know, barn, you know, who have come from all different worlds, you know, entrepreneurship or you know, creative backgrounds or or whatever, you know, all the different backgrounds people come to do lectures from. No one's come to hear a talk about singing. Why would they be interested? And actually, um, you know, it's been a huge catalyst for so many different things, but I think it allowed me to see singing in a much broader context and see it for what it truly is. So that that's kind of what I wanted the book to achieve. I wanted it to kind of open a door to people to singing, give people a different perspective on it, um, but also give people some just really useful tools, like a few of the things we've been discussing, like, okay, if you're gonna start, you know, using your voice and and singing songs, maybe start with something familiar from your childhood and songs that are designed to be sung by big groups of people, and just some really like practical tips. So trying to demystify the myths about singing, and in fact, the first part of the book is demystifying, you know, like I'm turned deaf, or I've got the wrong type of voice to sing, or I can't read music, and all these things that are often held up as reasons for us not to sing.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

So that was one of the things that really came out for me, James, when I first read it. It was a couple of things, but one of them was the power of the handclap, which which is he started our team day. I thought that was brilliant because for me that was just that reminder I got like, isn't that collective rhythm is so important and so ingrained in us? I'd I'd almost forgotten about it, but you make a great reference to it in the book.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah, the power of the hand clap, yeah. It's um, I mean, it sounds pretty innocuous, but actually it's massive. Like, if you think about um like Queen, you know, in the heyday when they were doing those massive stadium shows, how do they unite you know, tens, hundreds of thousands of people, you know? Oh, we here is the whole audience, they're there, they're together, you know, or like we will rock you. Um, and but he's you know, like if you look at it in a broader context, the hand clap is just like such an entry point. Like, I lived in West Africa in my twenties and immersed myself in in you know all types of music, but but the foundation of kind of West African drumming and dance and song is for participation is the hand clap. Um, you know, so you'd have the bell going like dum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum and the hand clap's dum dum dum dum dum dum because that's the entry point for everybody, and suddenly everyone is involved, everyone's involved in the performance. This separation between performer and audience is dissolved. Um, and you know, it feels good, it feels good, but also we know from the science that when we synchronize with other people, like there are really amazing things happening in our brain. You know, there's like I think there's a study of rowers, you know, and about the the feeling of kinship you have when you you're in a rowing team and you're all physically moving together, and it's like going back to the running analogy, it's like when you're running together or you know, when you're dancing together. Um, in the book I write about singing if you're happy and you know it and you clap your hands with my daughter, you know. Um it's just like so simple but so like foundational. And um thank you for picking up on that, Jonathan. Yeah, because um it's it's great.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah, it just took me back to my childhood. Uh and the other big thing in the book that really hit me quite hard actually um was the was the reference to the age of loneliness. And actually, you know, there were there was a big drop in, I guess community choirs started to disappear. I guess colories close when the coal industry was hit hard in the north. So you know, collective singing did take a dip, didn't it? And actually, you were right about calling it that age of loneliness and the rec the need to go back into something collective. Um, so yeah, if you could expand a little bit more on that, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Yeah, I mean I I think the phrase that the age of loneliness was coined by George Mombiot, I think. Mombiot to Mombiot. Long time ago. Um, and you know, I I talk about it in the book as one of the many aspects of group singing, you know, but I think I've come to realise that that really is probably the most important. No, it is like without doubt, the most important aspect of of the work that I do is using singing for connection, using singing to create a sense of belonging, because you know, we are the world is becoming like more fragmented, we're becoming lonelier, and you know, this is not just kind of you know conjecture. This is you know, if you look at the World Health Organization several years ago, they identified loneliness as one of the greatest health risks to the world. You know, there's a stat about feeling lonely is is worse for you than smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Um, when Vivek Murti was um chief physician of the US, you know, he did some fantastic work um around in this area, wrote a brilliant book about it. Um, you know, it's it's a really pressing issue that is only gonna um gonna get better if people start to put back into society what we've lost. So, like you said, Jonathan, you know, yeah, Colin is closing. I mean, I live in North Wales. It's like I can from my home office I can see um the um there's there's this amazing um what's it called? What's the what's the name of the building? The the miners welfare. It's called the miners welfare. I can see it here from my home office, and it that was the social hub of this area, um, and it's still here and it's still open. Um the pits have gone, you know, the collieries have gone, you know, the job markets have changed. That is still here as a beacon of of what used to be, and it's actually quite a rarity that that physical building is still there. But there, you know, that is kind of an example of there's so many facets of communal life that have disappeared, you know, um, whether it's um the the mines in the pits, you know, like across Wales, like in Cornwall uh industry, you know, whether it's the decline of um kind of organized religion, you know, church attendance, people don't sing in church as much anymore, um, you know, whether it's a move to, and I'm not saying this is this in itself is a bad thing, but more flexible working, you know, so people aren't actually gathered as much in in workplaces, um, whether it's the closure of pubs, so people aren't gathering, you know, so there's there's so much there's such a tapestry of reasons like there's not time to go into that that why opportunities for us to gather and do things communally have reduced and are reducing, and it's a lot easier for us to be at home on our devices and and order food to be delivered to our house, you know, and and not actually have to interact too much with other humans. And whilst that might be easier, um inverted commas, you know, we're like losing such an essential part of like our humanity, like you know, it we we know that that belonging is so central, it's such a central pillar of what makes us human. Like, we all need it, we all need a sense of something to belong to, and I think as I go into 2026, recording this in February 2026, that's the thing that I'm just really curious about, and and that is like another level of the age of loneliness, you know. So I think it in the past I talked a lot about community, my work, and you know, set up and run community choirs, and community is really important. But I actually think one level deeper than that is a is a sense of belonging, and and actually what singing does does provide it, you know, it provides a sense of belonging to self because you're engaging with your voice and you've got a sense of self, but it then helps you engage with with other people and and with your community. And what I'm also curious about is then what can we take from the singing experience and how can we open that out to other facets of life? So, a study that I refer to loads to and is in the book is a study from Oxford University, the Icebreaker Effect that found that that singing with other people is the quickest way to form social bonds. Um it was an Oxford University study. Um, so I'm really I'm really interested. Well, what is it about the singing experience? And we've touched on some of those things already, like it's a synchrony, uh, you know, when we're synchronizing our voices or our hand claps or whatever, it's coming together in the room, it's making ourselves vulnerable, doing something joyful. You know, what is it about the singing experience that that bonds people the quickest? And how can we then take that out into our everyday lives? Because you know, the the kind of logical outcome or necessary next step from my workshops doesn't, you know, it's not intended to be go out and join a choir, but it's go out and like, has this reminded you of something that you might be missing? Like, has it has this sparked a bit of joy? Has this sparked a sense of connection? Has this reconnected you to something in some way? Has it fostered a sense of belonging? And if so, like how can we go out and find that in our everyday lives? And so I think as I go forward, that is it being, you know, that's increasingly clear that that's what I need to be doing.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah, you talk about that in your book really, really eloquently, I think. Um you know, you you talk about the distractions of modern life and devices and how we're, you know, both more connected and at the same time more disconnected than ever. And how how singing can can be a way to help us to feel present in the moment in a very sort of visceral and physical way. Um I was fascinated by the the phenomenon of our you know heartbeats being able to synchronize when when singing together, and I think that that's that's incredible. And there's something interesting there, isn't there? Really fascinating going on. And I wonder how since you've since you've written the book, um how your sort of reading in that area is has maybe changed the way that you you see what what power, what potential impact singing can have on on groups of people.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Yeah, I mean that thing about heartbeat synchronizing, um, I think about that a lot in relation to my online singing community, so which has happened, so by that I mean the sofa singers, which happened uh has happened since the book was written. So the book came out September 2019. The name of the book is Do Sing. Six months later, the official government advice was do not sing, because of course we were in our the throes of our first lockdown were singing, you know, essentially with other people breathing air in the same room. You know, I mean it really was the last thing to come back. I mean, I think my community choirs, I think it's about 18 months that the rehearsal room fell silent. It was a very, very long time. And of course, you know, it was a it was a it was a health precaution. There's all different number of perspectives on it, but but basically, um, I had to think on my feet and think, well, okay, I want to carry on helping people connect through singing, can't do it in the room. Is there any way we could do this online? And I kind of stumbled upon what turned out to be an elegant solution with uh the sofa singers, um, you know, which is a bit like a remote yoga class where everyone's joining in from home, wherever they are in the world, and they're all singing the same song. I'm leading it from home with a guitar, um, like I would, you know, in a in a regular singing workshop, people can't hear each other, but they're still engaging with their voice and their breathing, and most important, they're engaging with each other. So going back to that study about heartbeat synchronizing, I suddenly thought, Oh my, oh my word, like there's you know, in the first session, session number one with 500 people, we maxed out the Zoom room, we'd 500 people in about 30 countries. We're all singing Stand By Me. And I was like, Okay, we've not only got 500 people singing, well, more than 500, because we often we had like whole families on the same camera. We're not just singing this song, like, our heartbeats will be starting to align because it's to do the breathing and it's to do the in-breath and the outbreath and the phrasing. Uh, and I was like, this is this like blows my mind. Like, surely I need some kind of like medical certificate to be able to synchronize heartbeats, you know, like what is this voodoo? Um huge disclaimers, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So, you know, I I do think about that a lot. You know, I'm really interested in kind of mirror neurons, and you know, I suppose I've started to look more at the kind of the neurology um of singing, you know, and just kind of reading around the whole thing, like it never stops being fascinating for me, and I never stop getting new ideas and new perspectives on it. Um so yeah, so yeah, it continues to evolve.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I think it is a I I think the health aspect that you've touched on. I mean, quite rightly you won a points of light award for Safer Singers as an initiative. And actually, for me, coming out of COVID, for someone who suffered pretty badly from the after effects on my breathing and lungs, it's like actually singing, singing helped me recover. Singing was amazing for my breathing and recovery, and um, you know, everybody I know that has experienced a challenge in their life through mental health, physical, so many of them have used singing as a way of recovery. And I think again, it's probably not understood and researched enough in full, but it definitely has a healing effect, and it's that you know, that is that collective power, as well as the like Harry said, it is it is a very mindful practice because you're in the moment completely on it.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Yeah, it's like a form of kind of like active mindfulness, you know, it's almost like I don't know, like surfing, or you know, it's not like kind of just sitting still and letting your mind wander and be empty because you you're really engaged, like there's so much going on when you're singing. Um, you know, you're thinking about the words or the melody or the harmony, you're listening to yourself, you're listening to other people, you might be lost in the emotion of the song. Like it can just you can you you can really get swept up in it, and um you know, maybe particularly when you're performing, or you know, I at the end of last year we did we with my Bantam of the Opera choir, we recorded with with a symphony orchestra, and it's just you know, it's just such an all-encompassing experience, and I think that in itself is really positive, you know, because our brains are so busy and there's so many distractions and there's so many things vying for our attention. Um, so just to be able to be present in the moment, I think is is a really great thing, anyway. But we know from all the research that there's so much going on physically, um, you know, in terms of improving our breathing, oxygen, oxygenating our blood, our cortisol luring, the release of endorphins. Like this there is so much going on, and I think this is why I'll just continue to bang the drum because what you know from what you've said, Jonathan, it's really helped you, you know, with with with with your recovery, you know, from from from from COVID and other people who you know who have other challenges, and and and you know, that is almost always a story that I get from from people is that you know um how much it has helped, and it's incredibly powerful. And and it, you know, it that's the thing that really kind of keeps fueling me to do what I do. And um, you know, I've mentioned Bantam of the Opera, which was uh an amazing project um set up by BBC Radio Leads, um, inviting football fans to join form a choir with me, and we had this amazing journey that culminated us in singing on sports personality of the year. We sang for the king, did all kinds of amazing things. But um one of the wonderful things about that project was because it was a Radio Leads project, we did these kind of mini kind of vignettes, these mini podcasts with every single member of the choir, asking them about their life, about their reasons for wanting to join the choir, and what the experience has been. And without fail, everybody was able to articulate the way that it's made them feel more connected, more energized. A lot of people spoke about how it's helped with their anxiety, with recovery, you know, from you know, we people who are who who are living with cancer, you know, all kinds of different life challenges. Um, and and that's just it's lovely to have that as a kind of a permanent reminder, um, you know, to to hear that because as much as there is all this scientific evidence and studies, there's nothing more powerful than just hearing a story, hearing someone firsthand talk about it. Um and and that's that yeah, it's it's a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Yeah, I do I do wonder if it's one of those things that it almost has to be experienced to be fully believed or fully realized. Um I don't I I don't sing that often consciously, probably probably when I'm not realising it, but I do have uh um an experience from my sister's wedding last year. It was midnight and we were gathered around on what what was called Whiskey Island. It was essentially a little jetty that came out to this uh this this lake and a few guitars, um you know, the night was kind of winding down and we were just singing away. And I think it was only for me at least getting over that vulnerability through probably having a few drinks throughout the day and just feeling sort of yeah, able just to jump in and really enjoy it. And also I think I'd had a bit of a sore throat, so my voice almost didn't sound like my own, it sounded very husky, and I was like, okay, I can try this on disguise.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

I was like, I'm gonna make the most gonna make the most of this, but really enjoyed it and you know sang for a good few hours. Um let's be disagreement. It's just like a really lovely moment. I'm thinking, God, have I have I got to get is that is that the answer? Like I've just got to save this for for weddings and Christmas and when I've had a few drinks. How common is that story?

SPEAKER_00 51:23

I think it's really common for everyone to have an experience of singing like that, where they were just like in the moment, they weren't thinking about it. Um and I think it's one of the early questions in the book where I invite people to reflect. Like, was it, you know, was it singing in a you know, was it singing like at Glastonbury with like a hundred thousand other people, you know? Was it singing a big crowd, or you know, was it sitting around a fire or late at night? And it it's I I guess it's a it's something about where you feel kind of safe. It's about maybe where your guards down a little bit and and you feel comfortable to do it, you know. So so there's usually like a few things at play. Um, and I think it's just important that you have that experience, like, because then you've got that as a foundation. It's a bit like people who go out to James's primary banger show, they might not have sung a hymn for 35 years or whatever, but because they have that experience, they've got something to relate it to, and I and I think it's a bit like the same with like the natural world, like that's why it's really important that we need to engage young people in particular with like the natural world because if they don't have that, then they've got no reference point, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Yeah, it's kind of like listen listening to classic uh hymn bangers, we were like instantly all drawn together as a group of people. We could remember the curtain pattern at in the school hall, we could remember the school dinners, we could remember the smell that you got as you walked in.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

I could still remember all the words to the golden cockerel crows in the morning. I was like, how has where's all this come back from?

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Yeah, well, I mean, we would we were talking about um about you know some of the uh the neurology of singing, you know, the the bit of the brain that's to do with music is like the oldest and the the most foundational part of the brain, you know, and so it's the it's the first thing that we develop in the womb and it's one of the last things that we lose, you know, later in life, you know, that the so it's really well documented, you know, people who um you know who are living with dementia can still access singing and songs from their youth because it's just really it's just really hardwired, you know. Um I I can't remember exactly what age it is, but in in you know, when we're in the womb, you know, we we get used to the sound of of our caregiver's voice, our mother's voice, and you know, and and and the singing of that and recognising those melodic patterns. So there's something about music that's just incredibly hard, you know, it's hardwired into our brains. Um, you know, it's there from you know, well, before the cradle to the grave. And yeah, so it kind of isn't it isn't a great surprise to me that it's then linked to all these other things, but it's almost like the sense of smell is like one, like one sense smell can just take you back to a whole host of other things. Like it's you know, it probably has all these kind of neural pathways where it just links up suddenly with all these other things. Um yeah, you know, there's a great thing, yeah, there's a great thing about nostalgia and singing. I think that's really powerful too. Like, think about um, you know, all the I don't know if you went to any of the Oasis reunion gigs last summer. Um couldn't get couldn't get tickets. No, no, I didn't either. But you know, I think there was something that really euphoric about those concerts because people were just there, not just like singing those songs, but with like in a huge crowd of people and maybe having nostalgia for a time that you know, like the 90s did feel a little bit kind of easier, and we weren't all working walking around like with our devices, and you know, like you know, there's there's always stuff going on, isn't it? But you know, politics is in a very different place, the environment is in a very different place now. You know, you know, I don't know. So I think there was a sense of escapism, and um I you know, I think I think that's a really important part of singing as well, is just like reconnecting with another time, nostalgia. Like often I say that at sofa singers, you know. Um, I'll be like, right, let's just um jump in our you know, let's just go back to 1963 and let's just sing some Motown. You know, it's just like let's just it's fine, let's just take ourselves back, let's have some mindful time travel.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Love that. Uh it'd be really good to just find out a little bit about what you are really excited about this year. You know, what are you what are you working on now? What's next? I know you're you're so busy, we don't have enough time to talk about everything that you're involved with, but I'd love to hear about what yeah, what you're fascinated about right now.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

So, in terms of kind of like my ongoing projects, I'm really excited to be continuing my relationship with Bantam of the Opera. So, even though the BBC involvement has ended because Capital of Culture you know year is over, we are very much carrying on. We've got some amazing gigs lined up both within the football world and the wider world, and just um as much as I love coming in and working with groups of people on a one-off, and I love I love the excitement of that, like at your winter solstice, where it's like from zero to you know performing a song within like half an hour, like that's really exciting. There's also something lovely for me about working with groups over a sustained amount of time, and so actually um getting to build on what we did last year with the Bantam of the Opera, you know, start to chart new territory and bring in new voices and do new things with that is really exciting. So, I guess for me it's always it's always been important to have a balance of continuity. So, like having the continuity with Sophie Singers, we celebrate our sixth anniversary this year. We're not going to be breaking any new ground in terms of like do new stuff because we have a format that people love and it works with me and it works with my team. So I think just having that balance of kind of continuity where you you're building those relationships and and you're developing things, but also just just finding the new stuff and and saying yes to stuff that's you know a little bit scary, um, and and kind of jumping in. Um so um, I mean, so what else really? I mean, the the the there's these these other couple of campaigns that I've been talking about, these two initiatives, um, that I'm just really happy to give my my kind of backing to, and if I can help support those. Um, and you know, the the get singing and the um choir in every school campaign. Um I'm looking forward to building on my relationships with with comp there's a number of companies now who I'm working with you know fairly regularly, um, where they're recognising the value of singing to their people. Um, and that that's always a joy when when I find organizations you know who really get it and I feel aligned with and and developing those. Um and yeah, and I suppose on a kind of a broader, maybe like a more intellectual level, just just really digging down into belonging and and and belonging, how it works, why we need it, maybe what perspectives I can offer from a singing perspective. Because you know, you know, do sing came out in 2019. Like, I'm thinking it might be time to start thinking about book number two. Like, was it Guns N' Roses? They took like 15 years before the next album. Like, I don't I don't want to be on Guns N' Roses.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

Um, don't don't we can't wait that long.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

No, so it's keeping it's keeping all that in balance with being a dad and you know, um making time for all the other stuff that isn't singing and work as well. So um a bit like you know, when when we did the intro questions, you know, I it's just like the perpetual strive for balance is there, and that includes doing a lot of things that aren't um singing and work and thinking about that as well.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

And do you mind, James, just for any of our listeners that are thinking, do you know what I'd love to start singing, or where do I start? What what how do I look up where to begin or where my local choir is? And have you got any advice for people that just think, yeah, this I want to bring this back into my life?

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would always just say, first of all, take the pressure off yourself. It's not about the singing. Um maybe revisit songs from when you were younger or singing Wonder Wall with a big group of people, you know, like find the love in it, find the enjoyment. Maybe find a singer or a band that vocal range kind of like suits yours so you feel comfortable singing along. Are you a Barry White? Are you a Barry Gibb? Are you somewhere in between? Um and in terms of engaging with other people, I mean that's why sofa singers still exist, is because people often want to dip their toe in the water first and be kind of led and have the safety of that. Um, I think walking into a room uh of of you know in an established choir where you're new to singing can feel quite daunting. So that's another thing that I'm interested in is like what might a couch to 5k look like in terms of singing, like what would couch to choir look like? Answers on the postcard. So um, yeah, maybe re revisit songs that you used to sing, take the pressure off. Think about what type of group you might want to be part of. Do you want to just like join a sing around in your local pub, like a folk night, or do you want to go out and sing gospel? You know, like there are so many different types of choirs out there, and to use I've talked about running a lot, but to use another analogy, like there are so many different types of yoga, um, and there are so many different types of yoga teacher that you might not land on the right one first time, okay? But there will be the right one out there for you, you know. Um, and so much of it can be to do with the person leading the group, you know, the aspirations of the group coming in at the right level. So I wouldn't say just like as a knee jerk reaction, go and join your local choir, because actually a lot of people have told me they've done that and it's actually backfired because they didn't feel welcome, wasn't the right type of music, you know, the you know, the you know, all kinds of reasons. Um so they're yeah, that they're just a few kind of starting points. Um, and just and maybe just think about like when have you enjoyed singing in your life, like you know, when you were sitting around a fire, Harry, you know, maybe get the whiskey out, get the guitars out, you know, get your mates around, like don't wait for someone to start the um whiskey peer club choir, just like you know, do it in your front room. That's what Brian Eno does. He he Brian Eno um he every couple of weeks he has a singing session around his house, and he he just people bring some food and bring some wine and bring some songs and they just have an informal sing at his house. Like, that's great. Like, it doesn't have to be a choir, it doesn't have to be a formal choir, it can just be hanging out with your mates and singing, you know, and take the pressure off. And buy my book, yeah. From that poppy show, I could hear Miranda from Doomboard saying, Jeremy, why are you having to buy the book?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:54

You should because it's a lovely thing, and actually, it's a great, it's a great entry point or re-entry point, should we say, to sing because I think that's where probably most people are. They've they've they've they've yes they have sound probably at some point in their life.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Exactly. That that's why it's reclaim your voice, you know, because so many um you often hear the phrase find your voice, and I'm like, well, most people found their voice when they were younger. Like you're saying, your kids are singing all the time, Harry around the house, and you know, most of us found our you know, we may have had our voices silenced or been you know quietened or lessened as we've got older. That's very common, but it's you know, we all found our voice, um, and so it's like re-like refining it, reclaiming it, finding the power in our voice.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

Yeah, the power of owning. Amazing. Thank you, James, so much. That was incredible stuff, and um, I think something that pretty much everyone, every listener can relate to in some way, shape, or form. So, James, if someone has listened to this and thinking, Oh, I I want to get James into our business or our organization, or what's the best way for them to get in touch?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

Best thing for them to do uh if you're on LinkedIn, just find me on LinkedIn and uh send me a message, that'd be great. Uh, or you can go to my website, which is uh james-sills.com, and you can send me a message through there. Um and yeah, take the plunge. Um, the majority of people who are booking me at the moment are people like yourselves who've experienced it firsthand and then become evangelical and want to share it with other people, uh, which for me is a lovely way of working because people know what I'm about. But equally, you know, I think we need more people in business who are prepared to take a risk. Um, and um, you know, people often talk about connection and wanting to build a culture of trust and connection and and that kind of thing. And I know no better way than than singing to do that. So if you're feeling like you want to, you know, take a bit of a risk, then um yeah, hit me up.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

Thanks, change. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

Thanks for inspiring us. I'm gonna go and belt out Wonder Wall in the garden now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

Yes! Amazing. Do it, amazing stuff. Okay, take care. Cheers, Henry, cheers, young.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

Thanks for listening. The gallery is produced by the Grave Collective and is edited by Lisa Curtis. A big thank you to Emirate MP Co and Shenanza Time Grange. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please subscribe and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. If you think someone might enjoy this, please do share it with them. We'll be back next month with another episode. Keeping up on our socials for a sneaky video. And until next time, stay curious and keep coming.