Why Nature Deserves a Voice in Every Business with Laura Ford | Episode 7

Today we’re joined by Laura Ford, Sustainability Director at Faith in Nature — the pioneering brand that became the first company in the world to give nature a seat on its board. For over 50 years, Faith in Nature has championed a different way of doing business, and now they’re pushing that thinking even further by treating nature not as a resource, but as a stakeholder with a voice and a vote.

In this episode, we explore what it really means to reconnect business with the natural world, the realities and contradictions of sustainable consumerism, and why honesty and transparency matter more than perfection. From rewriting corporate governance to making better everyday choices, Laura shares a hopeful and practical vision for how businesses — and all of us — can build a healthier relationship with nature.

In this episode:

• Meet Laura Ford: Sustainability Director at Faith in Nature and advocate for nature-led business. 
• Nature on the Board: Why Faith in Nature gave nature a voice and vote in company decisions. 
• Beyond Sustainability: Treating nature as a stakeholder, not just a resource. 
• Disconnected from Nature: How modern life has distanced us from the natural world. 
• Honesty Over Perfection: Why transparency is essential in sustainability conversations. 
• The Consumer Dilemma: Exploring the tension between growth, consumption, and impact. 
• Business as a Force for Change: Practical ways organisations can rebuild their relationship with nature. 
• Hopeful Futures: Why meaningful change starts with better questions, better systems, and collective action. 

Faith In Nature have kindly given all listeners an exclusive discount code for their next purchase. Listen to the end, grab your code and use it on your next order.

Ways to connect:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurahrford/

https://www.faithinnature.co.uk/

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Jon or Harry with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-growth-collective-uk

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Would you say you're a curious person? Do you have a burning passion that not many people know about? Have you reached a crossroads in your personal life or career? This podcast is for you. Welcome to the Gallery, a podcast for inquisitive minds from the Glyph Collective. I'm your host, Harry Mathe, people, places, and purpose lead at Tyler Grange, an environmental consultancy. And I'm joined by co-host John Berry, managing director of Tyler Grange and founder of the Kindness Podcast. Each month we'll be talking with some incredible people to hear their stories and to learn from their experiences, to inspire our own personal growth and to ignite collective action. We can't wait to share these conversations with you. So let's begin. Today we're joined by Laura Ford, sustainability director at Faith in Nature, a brand that's been quietly leading the way for over 50 years, and more recently challenging the very foundations of how business operates by giving nature a seat at the boardroom table. In this episode, we talk about what it really means to treat nature not as a resource, but as a stakeholder, why most of us have become disconnected from the natural world, and how businesses, big or small, can start to rebuild that relationship in meaningful, practical ways. We also get into the realities of sustainable consumerism, the tension between growth and impact, and why honesty and transparency might be the most powerful tools we have right now. So, whether you're running a business, working within one, or just trying to make better choices day to day, this one's full of insight, challenge, and a good dose of optimism. Enjoy. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Well, thank you for having me. Um, because I think at one point Harry did say thanks for being here. So I'm now responding.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Ten seconds later. We've had numerous interactions between you and Tyler Grange, it's great to get you on the podcast at last. And um, we usually kick off by starting with a quickfire, quick fire round. So some questions that most of our guests insist on answering both ways. It's meant to be a one-word answer, but you can't. You're allowed to justify it.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Well, uh they're very challenging questions for one-word answers.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

I think you've I think you've done that deliberately, really. No, we're gonna start. Would do you prefer home or away? Home. Oh, one word answer, brilliant. Um tea, coffee, or herbal? Well now.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Okay, now we're gonna now we're gonna get into it. Coffee, never. It is the devil's way. Oh really? Uh tea, normally and always, except for in the evening when uh I drink what we call in my house twig tea, but which is in fact red bush, but it does taste like twigs. If you've ever had red bush, it does taste like twigs. So we all call it twig tea. Yeah. And twiggy. You can start your own brand. I might well do.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Buy a twig tree. Twig tree, twig tea. And then are you a slippers, socks, or barefoot kind of person?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Uh religiously barefoot, but I recently fell down the stairs in my own feet, and so now I feel like I should be making a move back to slippers. Um, my husband suggested that we stuck Velcro to the bottom of my feet. I think we've just got slippy carpets. I think slippers call it's more assholes there. Well, somebody said this, and one of one of your previous guests said this, and I'm I'm not sure. My bare feet seem to be fairly dangerous, so I might I might go back to the slippers.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Okay, geographical question North, South, or Midlands?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Well, this is another tricky one. I am a southerner. I was born in Lewisham in South London. Uh I still live in South London, but I work uh in Manchester, and uh so I feel increasingly torn.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

I think you're allowed to, yeah, you're allowed to have a work and a home location, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Okay, so home location south, work location north. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

And then are you a mornings or a nights person? Definitely nights. Ah, brilliant. I think you should elaborate on that.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

I come from good gin drinking stock. I think that's all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Excellent. If you start drinking at 11, you'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

I don't know. Having had two children who were both they're both quite early risers, that has done nothing to enamor me of the early morning start. And so it's yeah, it's still it's still night time, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

And uh from that, are you a party or party or pamper?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Party party. Always. That's this is yeah, this is great. This is well, if I you know uh I feel like I'm the person on the Titanic that would have been raiding the bar at the last minute. I think that's that's the kind of vibe. So I think you know, if we're all going down, we may as well go down having fun. I think that's where I am today.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

That's a great value to have. Yeah. And then finally, this is the hardest one, really. Yeah, yeah. Note to self. Go about having a good time. Yeah. Um, this is the one where you can't really choose if I ask you whether you prefer nature or people.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Oh, I just don't think it's an either-or, John. I think that you've really you've deliberately stuffed us up there, I think. Because it's we are part of nature. You can't, there is no, there is no us without nature. Um, obviously, the balance is all wrong currently. There's too much us and not enough nature. Um, but definitely we're part of it. For spending time in uh, I think nature with a very small select group of humans, mainly my my husband and children.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

No, it's sort of a pushback we want on that question, and it almost leads us into our first uh theme of of question for you. Is like do you think that's where the balance has fallen away? It's like people don't see themselves uh alongside nature. Do you think a lot of people are operating in the human world and they've forgotten that that actually it's it's a single world and we're part of and collaborating with nature, but they've forgotten it?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it it's and the way that we live now, it that is quite an easy thing to forget. I mean, I live in zone two in London, and I do happen to live near a lot of parks, but in my day-to-day life, I'm trudging around on you know pavements and concrete and tarmac, and that is a lot of the lived experience for a lot of people, particularly living in the UK. Um, and so I think we've just we have we've just we've just lost touch, we've just forgotten what it's like to be close to nature. Um and that's very sad actually for us as you know, in our lived experience, living our lives, that's really sad. Nature has amazing effects on humans if it's allowed to. Um and the fact that we are disconnected from it, I think is only fueling the kind of you know, the massive mental health crises that we face as humans. You know, there's all sorts of stuff that actually I think, whilst not attributable directly to the fact that we're disconnected from nature, time in nature would absolutely help. Um, and so I think if we can if we can real rebuild those connections a little bit, we're on to a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, definitely, I totally agree.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Not a little bit, a lot. Rebuild all the connections, put it all back.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Absolutely. Um I think uh something we've been hearing more about in the last few years is the concept of green prescribing and how actually time in nature has proven benefits to to health recovery and aiding in that process. And I I wonder if you have ever experienced this in your own life or know of someone that has.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Um I mean I experience it on a on a daily basis, to be honest. I go out for a walk every day. There are beautiful parks near me, and huge plain trees and huge oak trees, and um taking the time to notice them. I don't want to sound like a crazed tree hugger, um, but I do I do kind of mentally note trees and um you know, in the same way that some people kind of greet magpies, I do mentally greet trees and kind of go, oh, you know, hello. Um, and I think that does um, you know, my work-life balance is a is a very particular one because all of my colleagues are in in uh the factory at just outside Manchester, and I work from home largely and then I go up there every couple of weeks for two or three days. So I am a bit kind of um separate from them. And so actually a daily walk for me is a really it's a really lovely way to anchor my day and for me to have some contact with yes, seeing other people around, but also just kind of um grounding myself in the fact that actually, you know, and reminding myself that actually we are part of this much bigger scheme of things and that everything is connected and we are just part of that whole system.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

And is that something that you uh I guess before we go into faith in nature and values and its mission, and do you mind telling us a bit about your background and like how you've how you've been ended up or how you've ended up with nature as being kind of your job now?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

I know, it's extraordinary. Um it's a huge privilege, in fact, to to have landed where I have landed in a in a business which has made it my work to embed nature into everything we do. It's um I feel really, really lucky um actually, and it's a job which sort of fits me perfectly, and it's one that I I couldn't have dreamt this up if I'd tried. Um my background has always been in kind of working on broadly sort of social good projects, um, and um I didn't really it didn't really finesse itself into uh thinking about environmental sort of impact and nature until about 2018 when I I went to an XR talk in a local pub, and I just had that sort of moment of the person presenting kind of said, you know, imagine what could be possible if we all responded to the climate crisis as if it was true. And of course, it is true, but you know, for the most part, we're not responding to it as if it is true. Um, you know, we're kind of doing that brilliant thing where you, you know, you separate your brain, and one part of you reads these awful sort of news stories and pieces of research and thinks, oh, I I don't really know how to process this, and then the other part of your brain goes, My kids need school shoes, so I'm just gonna focus on that bit instead, you know, and you've got to, oh, and I've got to do the Sainsbury's order, and you know, so you kind of you separate out in order in order to keep going, really. Um, but I just had this moment of thinking, if people don't start responding to it as if it's true, nothing's going to happen, nothing's going to change. And then I felt like a massive hypocrite because I wasn't really responding to it as if it was true either. So I thought, well, I need to redirect my energies um so that this becomes my daily work. And so I um I chatted to the guys I was working with at the time who were running a um, I was working for a sort of a design studio, and I said to them, listen, I think we should really we should become a B Corp. So I talked them into training me to deliver B Corp. And so I did that with them, and then over time I kind of went freelance and I started doing taking various businesses through B Corp and working on their sort of sustainability strategies and kind of real like CSR stuff, I guess. And then I did the course at Cambridge that a lot of people do, uh, and I've done various things since environmental management courses and whatnot. But I do, I was saying to Harry the other day, I feel like a terrible imposter because you know I don't have an environmental science degree. I've actually got an intern working for me at the moment who's probably better qualified than I am, you know, and uh so I do I do have um a touch of the imposter syndrome. Um, but essentially I think that's why I got the job at Faith. Um, I think they were um, you know, I was I was being an activist for uh Surfers Against Sewage when I when I met um Simeon at Faith in Nature, who's the brand director, and uh I was sort of I was a bit enraged really by um various things, you know, I was I was camp I was campaigning against uh single-use plastics. And so when I went into Faith in Nature, it wasn't with the sort of um I didn't have kind of 40 years of corporate social responsibility behind me, which I think can make you understandably feel pretty depressed. You know, there would be a series of kind of compromises, I imagine, in that sort of um role, and I just wasn't I wasn't willing to make those compromises. So I went into Faith in Nature with very, very high standards and um I think just terrified everybody the board with what I was proposing that we do. But luckily for me, um they were already on their own journey um to what I can only describe as you know, it's changed my life, really, um, what what Faith in Nature were already doing, and I can't take any credit for it because they were absolutely on that journey before I got there.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Um but it was there quicker, though.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Well, I like to think so. Thanks, John. Um, but it was really a perfect moment of um, I guess that's serendipity, isn't it? When you know, kind of I arrived with my very, very high standards and they were already kind of going, what we're doing isn't good enough, and we're about to make this huge change. Um so it worked out beautifully, actually. Yeah. This is great.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

I mean, I think to your earlier point there about you know that imposter syndrome, which I think many, many people do feel that. I think you are perfectly uh qualified to do the role you were bought into doing. I think uh, you know, if roots in activism, you know, ultimately that's that's that's change, it's making change and it's communicating it, and it's it's educating people and it's it's storytelling and it's passion and it's doing something which science really struggles to do. So I think a foundation in in conveying that messaging and and demonstrating an impact and pushing for better is actually far more of a solid platform for you to make change from than a you know traditional science background. So I think you've you've ended up exactly where you're meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Well, it kind of does it does feel like that actually. And um I as I'm saying this, I'm thinking, I wonder if Simeon feels the same way. I hope he does. I hope he thinks it's worked out. Um no, but I definitely feel I mean, I I was I was kind of brought up um by uh by good recycling hippies who worried about the end of the world um extensively, and so it's always been kind of in the background, but it it really, yeah, it wasn't until I attended that talk and I thought I really I'm I'm just kind of part of the problem if I'm not part of the solution. Um, and so and then everything that I did from that point, I feel almost kind of set me up perfectly for this job and the and the work that I do at Faith in Nature. So it's um yeah, it's I feel really lucky actually.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Well, I think it's an important message for our listeners. There's there's people that listen that are sitting in organizations and they're not sustainability trained, but they're the person that has to represent nature in their organizations, and it can't. I know for a lot of them it can be lonely and isolating. They probably go to sustainability conferences and also think, wow, I feel like an imposter. But actually, it's really a good story, isn't it? So you can still have a voice, you can change how an organization behaves if you just stick to your story, convince them to change, like you say, going with high standards.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Um so yeah, you don't have to be an expert to make a difference, and I just think every job could be a sustainability job if you wanted to give it a label like that. I mean, sustainability is a term that I actually struggle with, but um, if you you know, if any j any job could be a job where you look at the impact you're having on nature and decide to do things a different way, that you know, anyone can do that if you're buying the toilet paper or ordering pens or you know, or it's your job to find the bank account or you know, any anything really, there is there's always there are always little improvements that you can make that actually will go a surprisingly long way. Um certainly within I mean businesses have a huge impact on the natural world um almost without even really noticing it now. This you know, we're at the point now where most businesses are extractive in nature but don't even really realise it themselves. Um so I think being able to make those little changes along the way is um absolutely possible.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

I guess like moving on from that, so this sort of the vision and the approach that Simeon put in place for faith in nature and and nature being almost the brand philosophy. Was that there from the start, or was it kind of I I I always confuse myself as like was the brand and was faith in nature set up out of the cause, or was the brand did the brand evolve to respond to that cause?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Um sort of a bit of both, really, and um I think um I mean so the the brand we are 52 years old now, and the brand was originally set up by um a wonderful woman called Rivka who is a aromatherapist by trade, and so her premise really was that the natural world could provide um toiletries for us which were not damaging for us but also not damaging for the planet, and that was her kind of original starting place, and so that's why we've always had this really, really strong kind of naturality. Um, we've been vegan and cruelty-free for years as well as well, and those were big things for Rivka. Um, and I think just over time that's just sort of evolved, and so as our understanding has developed, that actually as a business, yes, we do rely on the natural world, you know, it's very obvious for us because our ingredients are natural, so we do rely on it in a you know, it's in our supply chain. Um, so it's very obvious that link. But it's also true that, you know, for our for our brand, it's it's part of who we are. It's you know, we and it's what our customers want from us is an understanding that yes, we're drawing, you know, um, we use the natural world, but we also need to repair and regenerate it, and that's very obvious for us because it's in our supply chain, but it's also it's it's just part of our kind of DNA as a business, it's who we are. Um, and so that understanding has sort of evolved over the last few years, I think. And obviously the landscape around us has has changed quite significantly in terms of what customers expect, rightly so. You know, they they should expect more from from brands, um, and so it is, you know, it is incumbent upon us to um to protect what we rely on, and that is a kind of you know, that's a sort of micro example of of humans at large. You know, we we are all reliant on nature, we don't really understand the extent of that on an individual basis, but we are all reliant on nature, and if we don't start to repair and regenerate it, it's going to run out. You know, it's not an endless resource. It's like a bank, a bank account, and we're sort of horribly in the red. That's kind of like we need to need to start making some investments. Um so I think it's it I think it's evolved over time, but but the the family um that that run that you know own and run faith in nature have it's always been a huge part of what they uh what they do. And so there have been long-standing things in place that you know I can't take any credit for, nothing to do with me at all. Um, you know, the use of recycled materials, everything you know, as much renewable energy as we can get our hands on. All of those things have been in train, you know, for for years, and really we're just um kind of built on on Rivka's kind of understanding of the natural world and and need to replenish it and protect it wherever wherever we can.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah, it's amazing, really, considering that to well to me at least, Faith in Nature being sort of decade decades old, I think, right, and saying it feels that it feels like the you know so relevant to us right now. Um is i is that coincidental or has Faith in Nature really been looking at the market and uh positioning itself to respond to where the sort of trends are overlapping with people's general awareness and that that uh the real urge to to do something less impactful and and and ref be reflective of consumer habits.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Um well, I think I mean partly uh consumer desire for sustainable products. Um Is is increasing, absolutely. I think we've always tried to be as transparent as possible and as authentic as possible. And so I think consumers do respond to that. They kind of come back to us because they trust us. And, you know, um, there's loads of stuff on our website, there's loads of stuff on our impact report that I think your average business probably just wouldn't put out there, just probably just wouldn't say. Um, but we're really trying to understand what is possible for a, you know, we're a manufacturing business, we have, we have environmental impacts. Um, and so we're really trying to understand what is possible as a manufacturing business. How can we be a model for other businesses? Um, because if we can do it as a manufacturing business, then there's no, there really is no excuse for everyone else not to follow suit. Um, and so I think that quest for us to, from our point of view, to really understand our impact on the natural world, we tell people about that with authenticity. We're very transparent about it, and I think consumers respond to that. So and that's kind of landed at the kind of the right time for consumers who who are wanting to make more conscious purchasing decisions.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah, because I said to Harry before this, it's interesting that I said it it must be also quite challenging because sometimes you're changing the consumer habits of a group of people that have used the same product for 20 years and they go to the same shelf in the supermarket every week. And it's like, how do you break that? How do you get them to realise there's a choice? And particularly like economically now, it's like I always worry that sustainability comes with a price, and that people won't make that choice when times are tougher on the pocket, and people are like if they've got the money to spend, they're gonna go for a cheaper option. But actually, I think what we've seen since we've been a B Corp that like actually responsible products don't always have to cost a lot more. Um, yeah, you've got to convey the message to the to the consumer, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah, I think you just need to be really clear with people about what it is they're buying and what they're spending their money on, and and therefore what the implication is for what they're spending their money on if they're not buying, you know, your kind of better in inverted commerce product. Um, you know, and I I do think that we are a better product than than a lot of those on the shelves. We're doing absolutely everything we can. Um, you know, we're reducing our carbon footprint year on year. We're working on a huge project at the moment in the factory to reduce our water consumption, you know, so we're and we try and be, we try and tell people about that stuff as much as possible. And so I think you just people need to know what it is they're buying, and and I think a lot of a lot of um purchasing decisions are made by you know, it's not it's not clear what the carbon footprint is of a of a product, it's not clear how much water's gone into it or you know why you've chosen this packaging or that packaging. It's not clear to consumers, um, and that is very com that is very confusing. Um so it's not surprising that um I think I don't know, pe people often kind of think um that they or they want to purchase differently than the way they do actually purchase, but I don't know, our sales are still going up, so we're we're happy. We must be doing something right. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

And I feel like the retailers retailers could probably do more to make it an easier choice in some stores of what is responsible or sustainable. It's very confusing as a as a customer, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 25:45

It's like and I think the the other challenge for us, I mean, um, you know, our our sort of big move to integrate the rights of nature into our corporate governance structure, so nature on the board, um that's a very it's not an easy thing to explain on pack to a customer that's going to look at your bottle of shampoo for approximately 20 seconds, um, if you know, at most. Um so it's quite that's quite a tricky concept. And so, you know, whilst I really I do really support all the kind of legislation moves towards um clarity and transparency of claims for consumers, at the same time, when you're a small business that's trying to do new things and coming up with new ideas, is then very challenging. Um, because you know, there isn't a tick box certification for having a nature guardian on your board, and it's also something that needs quite a lot of explanation. Um, so you know that that is a bit of a challenge for us. Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Wow, good, yeah. You know, you're absolutely right. Um I think increased sort of scrutiny and regulation and origins of of uh ingredients and genuine impact that that is being had through the supply chain. I think it I think it seems to put put faith in nature in a in a really strong position actually, if it brings out others to to up their game and be more transparent. I I found when I was doing a bit of research on one of uh one of your products, I found an article, um well no, sorry, it was a it was a blog, it was a it was a blogger um who was comparing various um products, and what was interesting is that many of the competitors just did not have the information available to present about the origins of certain things, whereas you you were owning it, you were being honest about the impact, and I thought, well, you know, that just I think that builds a lot of trust. And even if it's okay, we're we're struggling with with changing this one thing or replacing it or or or reducing the impact, you're owning it, you're being honest, and I think that means just as much actually, the honesty and transparency.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Well, and I think it takes away that that that kind of grey area, which uh which can then lead to customer confusion, and then they then they've lost trust and then they're they're not going to buy your product. Um and I think we yeah, we just we just try and be as transparent as we can be, really, because you know, pe as I say, people need to know what they're buying, and they're only gonna do that if you tell them. So yeah, we we try and make it as clear as possible what we are and aren't able to do. And to be honest, the challenges are not they're not insignificant. I mean, and this is partly, you know, when I started at Faith in Nature and I thought we're only gonna we're gonna switch out our entire supply chain, we're only gonna buy from other B Corps, and then I had to kind of downgrade that and go, we're only gonna buy from you know uh businesses that are sourcing regeneratively and then you know, and basically the system isn't ready for that. We're you know, we are we're operating in a system which is which is not ready for that, but that doesn't mean that we can't champion it and try and take our supply chain with us on that journey. I mean, we do um an initial assessment of of every new supplier that we onboard, and if they're it's it's not so much that we don't work with them if they're not up to scratch, it's more that we would work with them then to try and develop their practices and take them on that journey with us. So, I mean, we do we do do quite a lot of that. I'd I'd almost rather work with a business that is at the beginning of that journey and take them with us, and you know, we have a supplier toolkit that we give out and action plans that they have to submit to us before we start working with them if they're you know if they're um still at the beginning of that journey. And I'd almost rather do that and work with those suppliers to improve what they're able to do than I would work with a supplier who's kind of already miles ahead. Um, and I think also you know, we've got we've got a lot of really small suppliers and there's no legislation currently requiring them to do a lot of this stuff. So if they haven't got a customer say, you know, us saying to them, you really need to start thinking about this, there's in a way, like why why would they? You know, they haven't got the they haven't got the resources to to put to things like that. So I think it's you know, it's that's the power that we have as a as a customer, um, you know, with our suppliers. And so we we try and use that as much as possible.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

I guess you have you have the potential of having that big impact of just switching a small supplier off because they can't supply you with a form or a bit of information. That's as that's as as bigger impact on them in a way, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 30:31

I just like the power, John. I just like the power.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Do you mind like talking us through like just a product example of like say for one like a body wash or a shampoo? Like, where does stuff come from and how you know is it how does it get to you and how does that get monitored?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Um I mean it's actually sort of really beyond my pay grade because most of this is managed by the the technical department, but um they do we do kind of go through they have to sign various forms with us before we kind of get going, and and one of those is about the kind of technical spec, and we make sure they're that they're uh vegan and cruelty-free. And then all of my my assessment is um it's like a mini B Corp, actually. I feel a bit sorry for them because they get send this form. Um, and I was listening to your podcast with Adam from Small Nine Nine, and he was talking about you know, people receiving these kind of environmental assessments, and I was thinking, I might need to have a look at ours again. Um, because you know it's true that you know we ran a pilot with our um 12 of our biggest suppliers. About three years ago now, we ran a pilot with them where we did interviews with them to understand what their biggest challenges were, and then we created a toolkit and an action plan template for them to complete, and that kind of went out to them. Um, but actually we didn't get a huge rate of return. Um, and you know, there are all sorts of other external factors going on at the time, but but it's probably true that had I got them all in a room and done a workshop with them, pro potentially facilitated by Adam, um it might have had a, you know, it might have landed differently. And we so we're now kind of that was a pilot and we're now kind of looking at at how we kind of um move towards something that's a bit more co-created with um key suppliers within our supply chain. And I think we'll definitely that is the way to better data for us, really, um, because a lot of our um a lot of our our data ends up, you know, you have to use massive data sets to fill gaps. Um and so we would all you know we're always trying to improve our data, so that's one thing that we're doing currently. I say we, I've got my intern working on it at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

And do you think you've seen suppliers like do you see evidence of them being empowered in their local community because they're now providing a product to you? Do you think there's evidence that actually you know it it's given them growth, it's given them opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

I don't know. I mean, I've definitely I've definitely had several suppliers say to me, You're the only supplier that's ever asked us for this level of information. Only customer, sorry, and um, and I've kind of gone, okay, well, I'm I'm sort of worried about the state of the world that that's the case. I'm delighted that we're the first, because that's faith in nature. I feel like there's, you know, like if we're not asking, then something's wrong. Um, but I do think that it's it's it's just on us to get them to start thinking about it. You know, they app our suppliers absolutely have to start thinking in this way. Um, and so it's you know, it's an education piece, really, um, that we you know try and take with us everywhere we go. But I was with um a potential new supplier yesterday, and um they were talking about you know, they want to become a B Corp because they've seen that we are a B Corp, and I think they actually want me to handhold them through the process. So I'm gonna quietly back away from that one. Um but um especially with the new standards which look really challenging. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

I I suppose sort of slightly related to that, my question's around if if there's businesses listening to this and feel maybe okay, maybe I'm not too small, I can I can take some first steps towards doing better, being better. Have you got any sort of advice for maybe where they where they should start with that process?

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Um I mean so we have a nature guardian who sits on the board of Faith in Nature, and she has um she's got a background in in plant science and horticulture, and she's the director of development at the um Eden project in Cornwall and she heads up the National Wildflower Centre. She's incredibly knowledgeable about a lot of the ingredients that we use. Our you know, the way that we've got it set up is that she has a formal vote. She sits on our board, she's registered um with us at Company's House under Lawyers for Nature, who kind of devised this whole sort of governance structure. And so for us, you know, that works really well. She has a vote and it's a formal vote. She doesn't have the power of veto, but she votes alongside all the other directors. Um, any business can do that. Um, it's a very accessible model. I think for businesses that have uh external investors, it can be a bit more complicated, or they might have already a quite a complicated governance structure, which doesn't necessarily lend itself to adding a nature guardian to their board, but they can also have um a um uh a nature guardian who sits as an advisor in their board meetings, um which is a slightly less formal role, or they can just have nature as an observer in their in their meetings. And even that it goes a long, it goes a really long way, actually. Having having someone sitting in the room who is representative of the natural world does just make things people just make decisions a little bit differently, you know, and we have this um phrase at faith, um, which is hey, what would nature say, which you know was originally developed as a kind of um I guess a little snippet of how we think about things at faith. Um, but it does having a nature guardian in the room does it brings that question to mind all the time, basically. And you kind of know the answer, actually. You don't need you know, you you know it yourself. It's enormously helpful to have a nature guardian there to kind of um keep that on track um and to be that kind of checkpoint. And and and in my case, you know, I work with Juliet really, really closely. Um, and it has working with Juliet has completely changed the way that I work, and you know, so where we had a sort of corporate sustainability strategy, we now have a nature and sustainability strategy. Juliet is, you know, between us, we are running uh all of the work that Juliet and I do through everything at Faith in Nature. So we've got sort of five streams of work and about 15 projects which touch every department within the business. So it's not really just about having someone that sits in the board and just has that one touch point. You can you can embed a voice for nature in in many different places within your business, and you know, and to a more or less formal degree, depending on what your um business structure is. And that's probably something because I think once you've got a nature, a voice for nature within your business, they will suggest all the other practical things that I could otherwise have listed now, you know, like you know, looking at your materials and looking at your energy sourcing and you know, getting a renewable energy contract in place and you know, all that practical stuff, they would inevitably suggest. Um, but the thing that kind of really changes how you think about decisions, how you make decisions, what the basis of those decisions are, you know, that that would be achieved with a with a voice for nature in your business, in whatever format that took.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Such a powerful move to make, and I think just visualizing what that would feel like actually in a in a in a meeting, and just having that presence there, like you say, even as an observer, would I think would make you feel quite conscious about what you're saying, how you're saying it, and yeah, might probably add a great degree of reflection that might not otherwise be there. Um really fascinating concept.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

I have even what would nature say at home to try and get out of jobs, but it didn't get out of them.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Which jobs are you trying to get out of?

SPEAKER_02 38:55

I was claiming that some DI some DIY jobs weren't good for the planet, nature would definitely discourage me.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

I will not install that tumble drive.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

I've got the horrible question of the day now. So sustainability obviously is a scary one. Um if we take sustainability as the meeting present-day needs without compromising the ability for future generation to meet theirs, but then we've we we marry that up with consumerism and the increasing need to sell more stuff, and like I guess that's the uncomfortable reality that ultimately faith in nature's got to sell stuff, but you're trying to do it in the best way that you can. We're the we're the same as an environmental consultancy, it's still we're still supporting change and development, we're just making sure it's done in the best way it can be done. How do you how do you kind of deal with the the consequences of those two things? It's like is there is there a limit to what you can sell and uh in terms of your mission, in terms of faith in nature, where it doesn't become acceptable or sustainable, or actually is it much more nuanced than that, much more complex?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Well, firstly, I think this is very unfair because none of your previous guests have had such an awful question.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

I just like to point that out to the point.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Yeah, letters will be written, John. Um well, so when we when we first um started working in this way, our first nature guardian was um Bronte Ansel, who is the co-founder of Loys for Nature, and with her we set some sort of North Stars, I guess, some kind of you know pieces of work from which we would never deviate. And one of those was to get plastic out of our products, and and the other was to move towards a regenerative supply chain. The bit that makes it tricky being a business that sells products is the type is timescale. And so, you know, we are still committed to those pieces of work, and eventually, you know, I would love us to get to a place where everything that we source is sourced from suppliers who are creating that raw material or that component component regeneratively, so they're using waste and they're using you know renewable energy and then they're making something from nothing because there's enough waste to go round, quite frankly. Um but that will take us years to achieve, and in the meantime, obviously, we still need to be a functioning business, so we keep moving those pieces of work forward, you know. So last year we launched our first um 100% recycled aluminium bottle, um, and we will launch more of those. It just you know takes a lot of time, they're very expensive, uh, is a huge piece of work, you know. But we will continue to work on those projects, um, but the time scale changes, you know, so so things take us longer than we would like them to, certainly. Um I don't know if that's answered your question. Yeah, it's a good answer, though.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

It's a good answer. And I and I actually it you know, growth can be seen as a dirty word, but it's like actually if you get more of the population to choose a sustainable product, then that can only be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Well, because at this point we are, you know, humans have to be a huge part of the solution to restoring the earth to being one which can actually support us. That kind of that can only be done by us now. So um you know, we need we need people to start sourcing their own products in a different way. Um, you know, I I know that our products are better than than the average, and so anything I can do to kind of enable people to make that shift is all kind of moving in the right direction. I think I'd feel quite differently about it if we were making something that I didn't view as sort of a you know a necessary item. I think I would struggle, I would say I would struggle with that a lot more.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Everybody's got to wash, well hopefully, that's the a bit.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

I mean, everyone should wash a bit.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

But I've had my own habits of my own habits of change. I use the solid hair bar. Yes, John, which lasts so much longer than so long, I know, and it's really foamy.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Things like that would be likewise. Yeah, refilling, solid bars. It's amazing how you like actually I yeah, I was buying this every two weeks, now I'm buying this every six weeks. It's like you notice the change.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

I think I think that's the angle, isn't it? Like you're you're saying that growth can be seen. Is a dirt dirty word, but ultimately, you know, the more the more you are are selling to consumers, the more market share you are taking away from a company that quite frankly doesn't give a damn. They're interested in creating shareholder value, uh, avoiding as much scrutiny as possible on the supply chain, and ultimately just uh maybe slightly leaning into greenwashing. So I think it's a really positive thing if you if faith nature's doing well.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Yeah, I'm glad you said that, Harry, because I I would never say that about any of our competitors, just to be clear.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

There are some great ones, don't get me wrong. It's just that uh you know, there are also some awful ones.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Very good competitors, um, yeah, and I think um I don't know. It's uh we just I'm stealing, I'm gonna steal something from Simeon now, shamelessly, but you know, Simeon has this idea that in this kind of huge challenge that we face, we all sort of have a it's like a huge jigsaw that we've got to put together, and everyone has a piece that they can play. And I think our our piece as Faith in Nature is to champion, you know, integrating the rights of nature into business decisions in any kind of any way possible, really. Um, and and at the same time for us to keep kind of trying to take our customers on a journey with us. I think you know, one of the challenges we face is that people our growth area at the moment is um in the the 400 mil recycle plastic bottles that you get in soup, because we're in supermarkets now, you know, which is huge for us, that's great. But so the idea is that they might come across us in the supermarket where we are next to you know other brands, um, and so they might come across us there, but then when they have a look at the website, they can kind of go, Oh, actually, if I'm you know absolutely wedded to liquid products, I can do my own home, you know, refill station at home, I can keep this packaging, I can reuse it. Oh, there's a nice aluminium bottle, I might try that, or ideally, you know, move on to the solid products. And I think the challenge for us is to keep educating people about the efficacy of the solid products because they do really work. And I think you know, solid products have taken a while maybe to get to this point, and people maybe have tried other brands, and maybe they haven't the efficacy hasn't but quite been there, but you know, the faith in nature products are really good. I'm just gonna say it. Um so we try kind thank you, try and take customers on that journey with us so that they are um moving through an ever increasingly sustainable kind of product range. And the challenge for us is to kind of just keep improving that, really. So, you know, we are working on reducing the um water that's used in the process for making our products so that we can reduce our water footprint. So we're doing a lot of stuff behind the scenes, but we also, you know, we do need to keep coming up with products that are attractive to customers and are less impactful on the environment. So we can continue to take them on that journey, you know, through you know, starting as a light green consumer, perhaps and ending up as a very dark green consumer. Um, but crucially staying with faith in nature, never buying another product again, John and Harry.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Yeah, yeah, that's once you sink your claws in, that's it. So just outlook for for this year. I mean, there's there's so much doom and gleam around um repeatedly, and I think within within our circles and the purposeful business space, we're we're some of our most uh own worst enemies in that regard, and you only have to turn on the news, and let's be honest, that's really not positive at all right now. But no, what are you hopeful about? Where where do you see hope for the coming year and and beyond?

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Um, well, I'm going walking in the lake district next week, so I'm hopeful that will be nice. Am I allowed to say a holiday?

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Absolutely. That sounds interesting.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Spending time in nature with my children. Um what am I hopeful for? I mean, to be honest, I I'm really excited by some of the stuff we're working on behind the scenes at Faith in Nature. I can't say too much about it, but you know, our our chairman Alex, who's um the son of Rivka, our founder, is it's not your average chairman. You know, he's in the factory making improvements every day. And so there is a you know, there's a lot of stuff that we're working on behind the scenes, which will genuinely make our our us less impactful as a business on the environment, which is great. We're you know, we're starting to work on our B Corp recertification, and there's a lot in there which is challenging, but which is also absolutely necessary. You know, there's a whole section on human rights now, which is really good. Um, there's a new climate action plan which um which is required, which is all really I'm actually I'm hopeful that those businesses that do kind of maintain their certification will be a very, very dedicated cohort of businesses. Um, and they'll they'll be you know, it's all stepped up a notch, which is entirely necessary and I think a really good thing. Um so that that sort of thing gives me hope. And I think um my kids are really angry about all of this stuff, you know. They are my my youngest said to me not that long ago, um, but mum, why why is everyone chopping down trees uh to make toilet roll? And I said, I know, yeah, it's really it's it's really not good. She said, but don't they know that the trees are the lungs of the planet? She's obviously heard this phrase at school, and I said, Well, no, I I think they do know that. It's just, you know, it's complicated. And she said, Well, I think that's just really stupid. Well, yes. So, yes, you've hit the nail on the head there. Um, we use recycled toilet paper, just to be clear. Um, and um I think they're really so yeah, I'm really hopeful that one of my children will will save us all. I think that's that's where I'm landing with that. Um, but I do think you know, kids that are growing up now are they are really worried about the future as they should be, um, and they have less ability than we do to ignore the impact of of their actions, and so I think uh I think they'll be more driven than perhaps we have been as a generation to to kind of take take more action. Um yes, it's all on the kids. I'm putting it all on the kids.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Over to you kids. Yeah, take it away and fix it. Uh I think you're right that we can all put pressure on whatever environment we're in for people to change. So, like whether you're in a you know, I I stay in a lot of hotels through work and I get really frustrated by the products that are placed at mass in bathrooms around the globe, and like but then you can we should make you an ambassador, John.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

You should just have a little chat with them.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

I just leave bottles of it everywhere about Faith.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Have you heard of Faith and Nature? They do 20-litre refills, did you know?

SPEAKER_02 51:15

But I think it is fine, isn't it? Actually raising it with with with other brands or other operators and saying, could you switch this? And most of them will just be like, Do you know what we we've just used this for 20 years and we got into a habit of ordering it?

SPEAKER_00 51:28

And I actually I do have a terrible habit of asking if I go into like a cafe or something and I can see they're not separating their recycling, I do go and point out that they do now have to do it under the simpler recycling legislation. Um the looks that I get, and like my kids are just so embarrassed. Um, but you know, you I think you can all you can all kind of mini be you can be a mini activist, it doesn't have to be something that's um very sort of self-conscious making. Um like leaving leaving bottles of faith in nature around is perfect, John. Just keep doing that.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

We'll do start that. We can start doing that rogue campaign. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on, Laura. And uh thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Certainly sprung some some questions on you there, and uh you can't I knew I knew Laura would be able to answer it brilliantly.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

That's what I'm just I'm just really hoping I'm gonna edit most of it out. It's gonna be an extensive edit.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

No, it was uh superb. I say you've been a big influence on Tyler Grange and the way we've worked, and thanks for contributing to our team day and our podcast. Oh, yeah. And um it's always great to have these chats, so thanks.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Yeah, nice to catch up. See you soon. See you soon. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

The lovely people at Faith in Nature have provided our listeners with an exclusive discount code. Simply type in Growth20 during checkout to receive a 20% discount on your order. Thanks for listening. The gathering is produced by the Growth Collective and is edited by Lisa Curtis. A big thank you to Emirate MP Co and Shenaza Tyler Grange. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please subscribe and rate us wherever you get your podcasts. If you think someone might enjoy this, please do share it with them. We'll be back next month with another episode, so keep an eye on our socials for a sneak preview. And until next time, stay curious and keep going.