Kama Sutra : Intimacy

 Jen and Dagda continue their Kama Sutra deep dive, this time focusing on intimacy, foreplay, and the difference between intimacy and sex. They explore the eight forms of embraces (four non-sexual for mutual love/respect, four sexual for increasing pleasure), the 26 forms of kissing (from respect to foreplay), and why academics over complicate everything.

The conversation covers manual stimulation, mutual massages, and why people need guides for intimacy. Jen and Dagda discuss communication in the bedroom—why most people aren't aware of their own bodies, why women want men to "just know," and the importance of speaking up.

The Kama Sutra teaches how to pinch and bite properly (the kink community would agree!), and addresses adultery—discouraged but allowed under 15 sutras, including seducing married women to piss off enemies, widows seeking remarriage, and abandoned wives. The text has a near-total disregard for caste/class in relationships, focusing instead on wealth (Artha) and the ability to dress well, pursue leisure, and surprise lovers.

Jen reveals the Kama Sutra's progressive stance on same-sex relationships, called "third nature"—not shamed, with instructions for male-to-male and female-to-female intimacy, effeminate men, masculine women, and gender-fluid Hindu gods. They discuss  the evolution of acceptance from the 80s to 90s.... and why "consensual" should be the word of the year.

Artwork:bubulina65

Always a good time to be had...After Dark.

We truly enjoyed our time working on the brick and mortar side of the adult industry. We spent A LOT of time trying to satisfy and satiate many a curious mind while educating the 1st timers on some adult fun ideas!

We had a great employer who was not only the 1st fully licensed adult store in Washington , Momma D was the 1st FEMALE adult store owned in our state!

**Music: Burning Night by _NeutralMatrix_**

Transcript

Welcome

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Welcome to Everyday Life. This is our After Dark podcast. My name is Jen.

SPEAKER_06 0:11

And I'm Dagda.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Here is your explicit content warning. The following episode includes adult language, content, and situations that is intended for entertainment purposes and mature audiences only. So sit back, relax, and take a listen. Ready for the journey, Dagda? Yep. Alright, let's go. How you doing today? I'm doing alright. How you doing? I'm I'm I'm doing good. I think I'm doing better than you.

SPEAKER_06 0:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yeah, I'm not as sleepy as you. I'm fucking sleep deprived. For sure, especially after this hot streak we're going through, but uh you just look sleepy.

SPEAKER_06 0:52

Yeah, I don't know what the deal is. I fucking slept fine. Like I it was it was 80 something yesterday. The first day anywhere near that warm this year so far.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

It also might be the flush of pollen.

SPEAKER_06 1:07

Yeah. But my room gets super fucking hot because it's south southwest facing.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

So you get that sun from midday on.

SPEAKER_06 1:16

Yeah. And uh I didn't bother to put in my air conditioning unit in my window yet. Because it's kind of still kind of early for all that. But I put in a fan in my window, and that wasn't helping a whole lot, so I was like, okay, I'm taking a cold shower before I go to bed. So I took a cold shower, uh laid down and fell asleep almost immediately. Because well, that's what that can help you do when it's super hot. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Kind of like a Egyptian like the reverse of it's really cold, and you take a hot shower and it just relaxes you and warms you up.

SPEAKER_06 1:49

Yeah. Um, but then I have an alarm for when I need to go to bed in case I'm fucking off on the computer or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Wrapped up in the tube of you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

And so I had just fallen asleep and the alarm went off.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

I'm like, god damn it, right? There's nothing worse than we suddenly woke up like that.

SPEAKER_06 2:08

Yeah. Although I I slept fine until like two o'clock in the morning where when I typically wake up to go pee.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:17

And then fell back asleep almost immediately, and then was woken up by my normal alarm, which is at 4 30. And I was like, I don't need to fucking get up this early today. And so I just sort of laid there. I fell back asleep, and then my 5 30 alarm went off. And I was like, I need to get up to make sure that I don't interfere with the other people in the house.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:42

Even though today's my day off.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

But yeah, so I was like, um, yeah, on podcast day, you ain't gotta stress about being up that early to come over here because like, bro.

SPEAKER_06 2:52

And I was like, I want to go back to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Were you napping when I texted you? No, because I was running late.

SPEAKER_06 2:58

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

So for some reason I texted you and it didn't tell me if it had delivered. So I tried to text you again, and then it said that my text messaging wasn't working. I'm like, man, that's why I just called you because I was definitely running late and behind, but yeah, no, but it's still, you know, it's still a good day.

SPEAKER_06 3:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

So, you know, I can just you just you're carrying like a hundred dollars worth of groceries under each eye right now, and it's like, dang, I can see you're tired.

SPEAKER_06 3:25

And I slept pretty good. Yeah, that's the fucking weird thing sometimes that happens. It's like, oh, I slept really good, and now I'm fucking tired of shit.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Yeah, and and that's why I'm wondering if it's the if it's the bloom of pollen in the air, because pollen makes a lot of people tired, even if you're only slightly allergic to or to it, or even if you're not allergic to it, sometimes just the flood of pollen messes with your sinuses and just makes you tired. Because I'm sure that's part of it for me, because I am allergic to pollen. Yeah, I don't know. But well, you made it through the night and the start of another day. So that's half the battle, right? Awesome. So we were let's kind of trudge on with the Kama Sutra because there's so much really cool stuff in it. And and I

Intimacy

SPEAKER_02 4:09

do find I find human behavior fascinating. Because what do I always say about humans? They're fucking stupid, they are inherently stupid. We have to be taught to be smarter. So it's kind of interesting that basically it's I kind of felt the same way. The further I read about this guide, the Kama Sutra guide, the more I thought, wow, this really is working on the principle that humans are stupid and you need to be guided in the right direction. Now, for those people who don't know, I'm also human. So I therefore inherently, inherently am stupid. Just so you know, I'm not singling any anybody out. I'm I'm I'm rope-doping myself in with that too. So so last time we talked about um like the courtship side of things. So as you expand on into the conversation, then it starts talking about intimacy and foreplay. Make sense?

SPEAKER_06 5:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Because they really do separate it out. And it's really fascinating to me because they separate out courtship and intimacy.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Because to me, everybody who's ever courted me, it's kind of gone hand in hand, but they really separate it out. Did you know that they consider there to be eight forms of embraces?

SPEAKER_06 5:26

Okay. Yeah, I was like, that's typical academic.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

I'm like, yeah, I guess because I'm just like, I can see certain aspects to there being eight and why there's eight. Um, especially the so there's four that are considered a mutual love or respect, but completely non-sexual. Front hug, side hug, you know, like that type of stuff.

SPEAKER_06 5:48

Christian side hug.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Right. Well, there's some people who only hug. Um, like say you and I are face to face, like we are right now. And then you would take your your left side and match it, your left breast side, man breast side to my right, yeah, my left breast side. So what you're doing is as you bring those close in, you're bringing your hearts as close as possible.

SPEAKER_06 6:09

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

So the so there's, I know that that's somebody actually I used to work with somebody who actually taught me with taught that to me, that it's a it's a it's a step of hugging that gives you a deeper connection that says, I mutually respect you and I wish you health in your heart and in your life.

SPEAKER_06 6:27

Namaste?

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Kind of, yeah, kind of namas day. So really interesting, right? But um, there are four that are uh there are four types of hugging that are all about increasing the pleasure during any type of intimacy and sex. Anyway, here's the thing there is actually a difference between intimacy and sex. Yeah, but a lot of people don't realize that there's gonna be people going, wait a minute, you're talking about the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

No, it's it's two different things. Basically, intimacy is you know, kind of like a foreign play.

SPEAKER_06 6:57

Also, like the term intercourse doesn't mean sex, but most people think of it that way. Yeah, because that's the most common way they hear the term intercourse, and intercourse actually sexual intercourse intercourse actually is is an interaction between that's right.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

We we intercourse all the time without having sex, it's great. It's the best intercourse ever. But that you're right, but but a lot of people don't see that, they just hear the word intercourse, and then uh of course, like they're you know, 13 again. They said interreport.

SPEAKER_06 7:31

I remember one time I was supposed to give a book report or something. Yeah, I was supposed to um do a report on a on a uh poem. Okay, and I didn't do anything until last minute.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 7:48

And I just randomly chose a a poem, and one of the first lines it's talking about intercourse, and I just started laughing.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_06 7:58

And the teacher got really fucking mad uh because it was obvious that I hadn't fucking actually done anything for this. I just fucking read it on the spot. Um, and yeah, I couldn't stop fucking laughing. And several of the other people in the class were laughing also, and then there's this dude in my class named Jerry Jenkins. Anyway, every time I looked at him, I just fucking start laughing again. Yeah, I couldn't complete it.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

That's what she said.

SPEAKER_06 8:28

Yeah.

The Embraces

SPEAKER_02 8:31

The thing, you know, it's just it's so funny. We are humans, we are so flawed. But if you can, if you can laugh at your flaws, then then it's okay. You're learning.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

I it and and I truly like my partner hates it when I start laughing at some things. What are you fucking laughing for? Sweetheart. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I find that fucking hilarious. And it doesn't matter what it is. If I find it funny, I find it funny. You know, and it's just like, um, anyways, squirrel. You really should watch more Burt Crusher. It's hilarious. Okay. I think he's hilarious. I love it that he whips off his shirt to do his comedy specials. I like seeing his hairy little belly hanging out.

SPEAKER_06 9:13

Any fucking way.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

His wife is about as big as Mama D's youngest daughter.

SPEAKER_06 9:18

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

And he's like two of you. So it's kind of it's really kind of funny to see that big old belly hanging out. Um, little belly. Anyways. So, anyways, uh, eight forms of embraces, right? So, four for mutual non-sexual, four for you know increasing the pleasure of intimacy and sex. Again, intimacy and sex are two different things. They can go together, but they also can be used exclusively apart. Go ahead. You got I y'all can't see this look, a smirk on his face.

SPEAKER_06 9:48

I was gonna make a comment of uh embrace for murder and non-consensual activities.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah, we don't talk about non-consensual activities because historically, when we talk about assault, we get banned. So we can't do that. Thank you so much. Anyways, uh, but now, so there's only eight forms of embraces, and I like to think there's more than that, but you know, I'm human, I'm stupid, I don't know. However, there are 26 forms of kissing, and it ranges from respect and affection respect and affection. So obviously, we automatically all see the Godfather ring kiss scene or the mwah, ciao bell, moi, moah, the the French, you know.

SPEAKER_06 10:30

Yeah, the weird European and Middle Eastern kissing for greetings.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah, and it you know, so so they talk about using these 26 different forms of kissing. Um academics. It can't just be get a tongue down it, you know what I'm saying? Like if you think about it, there you could just say there's four basic kinds of kissing. There's respect, there's love, like, oh mom, I love you. Have a good day. There's so so what would that be? Love, familial, yeah, intimacy, and let's get dirty. I mean, you could just have the four, it's fine.

SPEAKER_06 11:08

Yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

You don't need 2900,000, anyways.

SPEAKER_06 11:12

Um you do if you want a PhD. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

If you want to pet a hard dick, no thanks. I I don't I don't need 26 different kinds to pet a hard dick. That's what PhD means, right? Yeah, sure. On this podcast is shit, right? Yeah, your eye like wait. You literally had to think about that for a second. PhD. Oh no, yeah, you looked like you were confused. Anyways, uh, so they have all these different forms of kissing, ranging from respect infection to foreplay and sex. Now, they talk exclusively how you should hold and embrace each other for a better connection. No matter, like, look, we've probably in 16 years, we've probably hugged like what, maybe a dozen times, maybe something

Intercourse Doesn't Mean Sex

SPEAKER_02 12:00

like that. Something like because it's just you're a very personal space person, and I've become that way very much so over the last 10 years. Yeah. Where I'm a very much I am Patrick Schwagey, and you are Jennifer Gray, and this is my space, and that's your space. And I'm like that with everybody, you know, just because it's just like people smell. I here's a fun fact for people when you get older, your old factory senses change, your everything changes, and especially women as you start going through perimenopause or menopause or whatever. Oh my god, that smell that used to smell delicious last week does not smell good anymore. I don't I'm gonna get banned in like 29 countries. I don't really care for bacon that much anymore. I really don't.

SPEAKER_06 12:44

Sacrilege.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

And I don't like hot bacon when I do eat bacon. I want it warm or cold if I eat it.

SPEAKER_06 12:51

Weird.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Okay, yeah, but yeah, yeah, I bacon's just it's too salty.

SPEAKER_06 12:57

It's just it's too salty, Mr. Brown.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Anyway, anyways, um, mutual massages, manual stimulation with uh hands and your fingers, they'll teach you how to do that too, which I find interesting because I always thought for most people, intimacy and foreplay and sex kind of came naturally as a explorative thing because each partner's different and you kind of learn them as you're with them. And so I I find it fascinating that they've had manuals. Like there's even an American manual, I think, called like The Joy of Sex or something.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

And it's just and it's fascinating to me. It's just like I thought the whole point was to explore your fire partner and find out what you like together.

SPEAKER_06 13:48

I mean, uh, I think if you asked most women, they'd be like, Yeah, they need a manual.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Well, I mean, are you dating somebody who's deaf? Sign on his back. Left, right, up, down, A, B, C, D, E, F G. Well, whatever. People see, this is a thing I don't get. Why have we become a community of silencers where we're silencing ourselves? Instead of saying, When I'm intimate with you, I would really like it if you double-click the mouse.

SPEAKER_06 14:19

Well, so there's a couple of things. Number one, I think most women aren't super aware of their own bodies.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 14:27

Um, and most men too. But for men, it's far simpler, it's more obvious what's going on, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 14:36

Um, so that's number one. Most people aren't aware of their own bodies and what turns them on, turns themselves on.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Right.

SPEAKER_06 14:44

I would say it's a rare individual that is actually very cognizant of what they want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 14:50

And usually those people are like hyper sexual people to begin with. Anyway, so you got that. Then you got a lot of women have this tendency of, I want the man to already know. I don't want to have to fucking tell them what to do. Right?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

It gets exhausting, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:08

Yeah, and so well, it's for both parties because like I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I can't feel what you're feeling.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:16

And that doesn't matter what sex you are, right? You can't fucking feel what the other person is feeling.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Open your freaking lines of communication. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:24

And a lot of people aren't sensitive enough uh as far as observation to realize what is or isn't turning on their partner.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:35

And that would also require their partner to be being honest about what they're actually experiencing and be somewhat aware of what they're actually experiencing. So there's a whole bunch of fucking levels of miscommunication, let's say, and barriers to communicating properly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

I mean, you don't have to be an asshole about it either. It you know, like I mean, I've been with some guys where they're just like had some very strange requests, and I'm just like No, I won't step on your balls. No, I had I dated a guy briefly who wanted me to fist him in the ass. And that was a step beyond for my comfort level.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

I was like A step. That's like fucking fist.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

I was like, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_06 16:20

Um, and that's just being you know honest, but but I find it interesting that well, also another level is that a lot of women, especially women, some men are like this too, but it's far more likely that it's a woman that's gonna have this sort of thing. They don't want the other person to be embarrassed because they didn't get the job done. They don't want the other person to feel uncomfortable or feel less than because they're not fucking fulfilling their needs or whatever. Yeah. So they won't say anything.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:52

So dudes, I mean, dudes are simple, so it's like, okay, you can see that it's working.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Right. You can a hundred percent tell that you're happy, which is really interesting because I, you know, again, I I just feel like people should have their own voice. So I find there and there's nothing wrong with the guide. I think it's great that there's this guide. I do think it needs to be updated, probably, because um it's only about 3,000 years old.

SPEAKER_06 17:21

So, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

I mean, hey, it talks about pinching and biting, it talks, it teaches you how to pinch and bite, literally. That's crazy. Holding, embracing, pinching and biting. Like, what? So, you know, it's interesting to me that for all these thousands of years, it's like apparently there's a proper way to pinch and bite.

SPEAKER_06 17:41

I mean, if you talk to most people in the kink community, yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Fair. Um mutual massages, manual stimulation with your hands and fingers. And there's not one or two, but three different forms of franchising.

SPEAKER_06 17:59

Okay. And then you've got which should be renamed Indian kissing because the French learned it from the Indian kissing.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Hindu kissing, Hindu kissing. Yeah, I think that I think Hindu kissing just sounds a little bit less rough. You say Indian kissing, and it's like confusing.

SPEAKER_06 18:18

Yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Anyways, I'm special like that. Uh, but it has multiple examples of flashio and conolingus. Like, obviously, we know what flashio is, right? Do they know what flasio is? And I and I say that because we do have a few young viewers, listeners uh on the younger side. So, what is fallacious for those who may not know?

SPEAKER_06 18:43

They have the internet.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

I ain't I ain't your Uncle Dag, does I have the internet?

SPEAKER_06 18:48

Blowjob.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Oral manipulation between mouth and penis, whether it's female to male or male to male.

SPEAKER_06 18:55

Oh, that's male to self. That's conolingus.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Fallacious is female to penis, male to penis, or male to self. Conolingus is male to clitoris and vagina.

SPEAKER_06 19:10

Well, it's mouth to vagina.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

It's mouth to vagina, whether you're a girl, boy, or anything in between.

SPEAKER_06 19:16

And fallacious is mouth to penis.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah, and then of course, the new thing, which is not covered in the book, is analingus. So every time I say analingus over all these years, it still makes you gag a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 19:32

So fucking cool.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Not in a good way. So sorry. Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

So it covers all of those things, which is really kind of interesting because, you know, we see the basics of how intimacy and foreplay can kind of work on like mainstream TV. Like you'll see on comedy shows how people are kind of communicating with each other and kind of quote bust

Communicate in the Bedroom

SPEAKER_02 20:00

each other's balls. And then they, oh, roll and romp and it's great. And then, of course, on drama shows, it's how they make up and make it better or break up. And then, of course, reality shows, it's all about getting it on.

SPEAKER_06 20:16

Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Something for goodness sakes. Um, so yeah, it's uh it's wild. And you know, I didn't realize that there was so many different ways to hug. And I mean, like, obviously, you know, I'm human, I'm stupid, but like I didn't realize there's literally every degree you move your head or body is a new way to hug or kiss.

SPEAKER_06 20:42

Yeah, I mean it's just like that's academia for you. It's it's oh, I put my thumb two centimeters to the up in this position, therefore it's position blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah, it's it's it's almost like um, you know, everybody wants the secret code A B A B up down up down. You know, it's almost like everybody wants a secret code, and it's like people, it is the human body with consent is there for you to explore with your partner and figure out what you like. Like finger it out. He said, finger it out. Like, you don't like fellatio.

SPEAKER_06 21:21

No, not really.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

You're you know, you're not a fan of it. No, you you find it boring.

SPEAKER_06 21:25

I'm like, you want to do that? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

And then they want to kiss you after they got pre-com in their mouth.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

You're just you're like, go push your teeth.

SPEAKER_06 21:34

Only on the cheek.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

You're minuscule, so like only on the back side of their front teeth. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Fucking dork sorry.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

I don't know why the word minuscule makes me laugh so hard, but it does.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

I'm gonna mouthfuck your teeth.

SPEAKER_06 22:16

No.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Anyways. I don't know. I you know, that is the one thing. So, like, I kind of wonder when academia gets like this, are they trying to be like inclusive to everybody? Is that why they have so many different forms? Or is it because you know you got all these really smart people sitting around going, oh wait, Johan? So she actually turned her head to the left and then went up, down, up, down, left, right, left, right with me. And it was fantastic. I don't know about this right, left, right, left crap. I mean, is that literally what it comes down to? Is they're expressing their personal preferences?

SPEAKER_06 22:55

Well, this particular thing is very old.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Right.

SPEAKER_06 23:00

In when it comes to new stuff, it's because somebody needed a PhD, and so in order to do that, you have to write something new. And the problem is with in a lot of in a lot of academic um areas, let's say, there isn't a whole lot new to be discovered.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Right.

SPEAKER_06 23:24

And so they go to more and more minutiae. It's like, okay, well, there's four stages of hypnosis. And then some other dude comes along and is like, well, actually, there's eight. And I've broken the four stages down to two stages each. And then some other dude comes along and is like, actually, there's twelve. And I've broken down the four original stages to fucking three stages. And it's not important, right? In order to get their PhD, that's what they wrote about. So but this is fucking super old. But he did mention that he had he was to a bunch of other people.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Oh, yeah, I can't even pronounce most of their names.

SPEAKER_06 24:04

So maybe it's him like adding layers of minutia to something.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Like I don't know. Like what he's read. You know, it's always that thing where it's like people say read between the lines, read between the lines. And in in there's a lot of this where it literally sounds like it's reading between the lines. Now, again, the the sex and intimacy part is like very, you know, just it's just part of it. That's not what the majority of the book's about. Yeah, which is really interesting because one of the things it touches on. There's two interesting things that it really uh touches on. And one of them is the fact well, there's a couple. So one of them is the fact adultery. So even though it's discouraged, there are at minimum 15 sutras that give a reason for which a man is allowed to seduce a married

Some explanations

SPEAKER_02 25:00

woman. To seduce a married woman? That is correct. Now, when I say that, I want people to understand we are talking about women stepping outside of their marriage. A single man, presumably a single man, seducing a married woman. Um it's there's also uh reasons for unmarried virgins, um, reasons for men to step outside of their married marriage to have sex with unmarried virgins, and then of course, the married ones, and hey, they've been abandoned by their husbands. Uh, you know, those are okay to sleep with under 15 different sutras, and then, of course, a widow seeking a remarriage, because it was very common for the men to, especially the guys that were out being merchants, to die. And then, so you know, the ladies would lift their skirts and undo their wrap, and you know, uh, it's very interesting because what it says is a person should learn how to make um a living on their own. A person, every person should learn how to make a living. Youth is the time for pleasure, and as years passed, one should concentrate on living virtuously and hope to escape the cycle of rebirth. It teaches adultery as a means for a man to predispose the involved woman in assisting him as a strategic means to work against his enemies and facilitate his successes. So it's okay to bang her if it pisses off your enemy. That is acceptable. One should not commit adultery because it pleases one, only one of two sides in a marriage, hurts the other, and goes against both Dharma and Artha. So, on the one hand, adultery is okay if you're getting vengeance on your enemy, right? And it's also okay if she is a married woman who's unhappy, has been widowed. Her and here's the thing: husbands are presumed, abandoned if they don't see their wives or didn't see their wives as often as they should. Even if you were a merchant, you know, you were expected to be home every certain amount of time and do your duties. And then you've also got people who are like, see here, Sila, I don't like John over there. And I know he's your husband's brother, so you know, it's just so crazy. But that goes to the the different, the different uh commas, right? So, because not everybody can live through all four commas, they can't live with the dartha, the artha. They can't, most people can't balance it. So it's like it's super crazy, and it and it just is like it's so fascinating to me. One should not commit adultery because it pleases only one of two sides in a marriage, hurts the other side, and goes against both the dharma and the artha, which is the goal of men. Priority is dharma, then artha. Yeah, and then the other ones. So it's just like, but just the fact that it's like you can do it to piss off your energy or or or that's like insane.

SPEAKER_06 28:09

I wonder if um Machiavelli read the Karma Sutra.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

I don't know. It's very it's widely accepted in a lot of philosophy classes as something you should read to have another perspective into Hinduism and all of that type of thing. Um, so it's kind of interesting. And and and what's really fascinating, so so the so India Hinduism, they they kind of had it right to begin with. So it's real, it's very interesting. They actually, through this book, you learn that they have a near total uh disregard for caste or class. They set most of that aside. So so it says human relationships, including the sexual type, are neither segregated or repressed by gender or caste, but rather linked to um to uh individuals' wealth like success success and artha. So they're not linked by oh, you're a farmer and I'm a banker. It's not linked by that. It's it's linked by their artha, the wealth they find in their artha.

SPEAKER_06 29:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Yeah, it it's really interesting to me. Bless you. Man, that's how come you lost your Jesus halfway through last week. Good lord. Uh, so so it's interesting because they also say that lovers are not upper class, but must be rich enough to dress well, pursue social leisure activities, uh, buy gifts, and surprise a lover. So it's really interesting that they're like, you know, you don't have to be all these things, but you do have to do these things. And and and I get it because when I first read it, I was just going, like, dude, you're asking them to be a different class than they are. But then then I thought about it, went, wait a minute, you know, and I know I've met a lot of women, they're like, it's the thought that counts, and it's it's Pareto's Law. 80-20, it totally is. But like for me, it's not, it's never been about the the it's the idea of the gift. You wanted to do this for me because you thought it was something I would enjoy. And that's sweet, whether it costs 50 cents or $5. Um, so I had to put it into that perspective to understand what they were saying. Like, if you're going to pursue a lover, and they're not even saying a mate, there's they're saying like a lover, somebody you care about, want to be intimate with. You know, so it's it's kind of interesting how they they really put aside all, you know, because it is a huge thing where it's just like in in many societies, caste isn't important. And of course, they want you to run in the same circle so you have more in common, but it's not a determining factor for who you should pursue. Farmer can pursue banker, banker can pursue princess. It doesn't matter. What matters is that you have enough common interests and you can provide well for each other mentally, emotionally, financially. So, I mean, you could go out and marry, you know, Halle Berry, and it'd be okay because it's the thought that counts. Wow. Sorry. I have I think she's gorgeous, I think she's stunning. I mean, she's been married, I don't know, four times, three times, I don't know, a lot of times. And there the most sad thing for me is I think almost every every person she's been married to has had an affair on her. And it's just like some women just get done dirty all the time.

SPEAKER_06 31:30

Yeah, also it doesn't matter how attractive you are. Dudes are still dudes.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Dummies are still dummies, but I mean, we you don't you don't know. She she could be a uh um a micromanager, you don't know.

SPEAKER_06 31:44

Yeah, you don't know what she's like in her personal life.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Left, nope, right, nope, left, up, down, b, b, a, b, b. I mean, you don't know.

SPEAKER_06 31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Uh so one of the good things that the Kama Sutra does, which is very it's really interesting because when you look through world history, it kind of goes, we kind of go back and forth. It's this ebb and flow of what we will or won't talk about and what we will or won't address.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

You know, and it's so funny because it it's such a hypocrisy. I mean, I hate to be like, look at that gross guy that I can't stand. What's his name again?

SPEAKER_06 32:22

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

The one, all the virgins. I keep wanting to call him Claddius because I just watched Honor Games Recent. Oh, Caligula. Caligula!

Adultry

SPEAKER_02 32:31

I mean, I hate to quote him, but like he knew no boundaries between male, female, he didn't know. He didn't care. I don't believe he's a virgin. Who's the biggest whores in Congress? Senator's wives.

SPEAKER_06 32:44

Who's the biggest whores in Rome?

SPEAKER_02 32:46

In Rome, that's right. Senators' wives. Oh, my bad. I said, I mean, the same as applicable. I mean, it's kind of applicable, don't you think? Uh, anyways, so one of the things that the comments are really did back in the day to address it um was they did they did not um shame for same-sex relationships. Okay, they just called it third nature, and it gives you instructions on oral play from male to male and uh or female to female. And this was something that was in interchangeable with effeminate men and masculine women, and it was uh nothing to be ashamed of. It was very commonly accepted. Uh, and one of the things that was written in what I had read was that it was really common for females, especially if they'd lost husband, um, their true nature would come out and they would find other females to find, you know, intimacy and sexual pleasure with. Just like there was a lot of women who would, you know, commit adultery on their husband, like if they were out to see or however you want to say it, they were merchants or whatever, or they're travelers or whatever. Um, and they would to to make sure to stay within the confines of this isn't like same-sex relationship, it was not adultery, it was not considered adultery. And so they would they would find young girls to teach, you know. So, I mean, there's nothing wrong with making the kitty purr. There's nothing wrong with making a kitty purr. So it's kind of interesting that you know, so we have all this, right? And then we go through these huge phases in histories where you touched a dude, you touched a girl, like same-sex relationships. It was, it was literally, they called it, you know, we know cultures that call it the third sex. We actually did an episode about that.

SPEAKER_06 34:38

Oh, yeah, the Fa Fa Puny.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Um we did that. And so it's really interesting to me that it seems like to me, it's more of an English thing or a British thing or an American thing, however you want to say it, it's more of a white thing. It's where we're like, oh, this isn't something we should talk about because it's it's and and and really when you go back, it really does go back to colonial times and uh I want to say Plymouth Rock, but that's not the right way to say it. But when we look at those times, because things started to change in Elizabethan times and in colonial and and colonial times, because it was just like, no, we're gonna be better than we're coming here, we're here to be Puritans. We're not going to discuss those things that cross classes and and cross. No, we're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_06 35:25

I mean, a lot of it is very Christian, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Um, but that's what it was considered a lot of the like the women with women was can also considered a lot of crossing classes because usually married women, regardless of what their husband did, held a higher stature, higher class, higher caste than the unmarried virgins or the unmarried women.

SPEAKER_06 35:46

So again, it was crossing, you know, and it's just like also like the same sort of thing would happen if you were like mixing religions. So especially like if you were Christian and marrying a Jewish person or an Islamist or whatever, yeah. That was a huge taboo thing.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

Um, let alone interracial relations.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yeah. So and I think what's really kind of dynamic is that in history we have these long trudged-out periods where we feel almost oppressed as humans, and then we come around to these I will die before I abide by your rules of society, you know.

SPEAKER_05 36:32

Give me liberty or give.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Give me death. And we do this. So because we go through these very prolonged periods, we end up having these quick periods of change. If you think back, and this is a really interesting thing, if you think back pre-COVID, there was already so COVID really kind of bloomed in 20, like 2019, 2020. Now, if we go back to one of the some of the big cases in the US regarding like AIDS

Disregarding Social Heirarchies

SPEAKER_02 37:00

and regarding homosexuality back in the uh 80s, there was a kid, his name was Ryan White. He caught he got AIDS through a blood transfusion. He died, and and it was a huge thing. You know, they kicked him, people were holding their kids out of school, they kicked him out of school simply for having AIDS. He had to fight for his right to get educated. Yeah, he still died at uh 18 or 19 years old. Yeah, but he he set the precedence that whoa, there's I have a disease, I'm not giving you a disease. So it really was a huge culture shock to people once they started figuring out that um you couldn't get it simply by shaking hands or ha ha laughing in the same, you know, 10 square feet or whatever. So so it went from this thing where it it literally evolved to where it's there's this disease and we don't know what it is, and there's this uptick in the early 80s, and then by the time we get to the end of the 80s, it's like people are starting to realize, oh, I have to really watch what rumor I'm believing, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

So then we get into the early 90s, and it's just like, okay, so the AIDS epidemic is is it's kind of at the down tail of it, and people are understanding protect yourself, protect yourself, protect yourself. But we're having hate crimes. We've got Tina Brandon, who was a male to female transgender person, or excuse me, a female to male transgender person. And there is a movie that was done with the uh uh I know her name's first name's Hillary, I don't remember her her her last name. She was married to Chad Lowe for many years. Uh, she did Million Dollar Baby with Clint Eastwood.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Anyways, Hillary. Um, so there was a movie made made about it called Boys Don't Cry, where she was tortured to death. She was, she was, she was raped and she was killed. Or she was redacted and she was killed, however you want to say it. You know, like I I mean, we always have to watch what we say in our synopsis, right? So then you have her family fighting for the rights, and then you've got the big cases as well, like Matthew Shepard, who was found beat to death uh for being gay. And so it became during the 90s, we had this huge thing where it's just like, whoa, we need to stop having these people beaten to death just because they simply liked boys to boys, girls to girls, whatever it was. And I don't know if you had much of it in high school, but my high school, we had a few, um, obviously, you whether you knew about it or not, we had a few alternative lifestyle people and we never treated them differently. We even had some transgender. Of course, that's we didn't call them transgender back there. We just thought they were people just thought they were like wanted to be drag queens or they were transvestites or transsexuals, they weren't transgender. Transgender is more of a modern term, yeah, that we use.

SPEAKER_06 39:43

Also, also, also, uh, back then it was like you couldn't really transition.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

No, to to transition, you couldn't just pay for it to be done. You had to go to John Hopkins or the mail clinic, and you had to go through like two years of mental health evaluations to understand what it was that was really going on. And of course, it was a huge thing for you know, it was coming on the downtrend of you know, gay conversion camps and all of that. And pray the gay away, like that works and you know, and that's that thing that there's like a lot of people who simply do not understand that there are a lot of people who maybe it back then, maybe not so much now. Now we're very much like fuck you, I like what I like, that's how it is. But back then there were a lot of people, and there was a couple of people I knew they were like, if I could pray it away to where I was quote normal, and that's how they said it, quote, normal. I would do anything to make my dad not hate me. I would do anything to make my mom love me again. And it's such a sad thing. So, what's interesting to me is we have these hills and valleys through our history where literally how many thousand years ago was the Kama Sutra written?

SPEAKER_06 40:56

It's like 2,000 plus years ago.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Okay. How was it back then? We can sit there and go, if that's what you want to do and you're not hurting anybody, go ahead. There were caveats like you have to be an adult, you have to take care of the situation yourself. You don't go out in public and flaunt it around like all the paintings in Rome, but they're they didn't care. It was talked about, it was accepted. It was not a big deal. It was as simple as saying, Oh, you're 24 years old and she's 22. Go ahead, get married. I don't care. It's it's simple.

SPEAKER_06 41:25

Also, one of the biggest influences on that sort of thing would be your religion. And their religion has, I'm pretty sure there's uh several gods that are like fluctuating.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:40

Um, don't quote me, I might be wrong. But I'm pretty sure that they have because they got a whole lot of gods in Hinduism. And I'm pretty sure that several of them um are able to switch their genders or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

There's there's at least eight or ten of them, I believe.

SPEAKER_06 41:56

And and so as a result of that, it becomes not as weird of a thing as what it would be for Christian people or Jewish people or Muslim people to accept that hey, this person's different. Yeah, we got a god that's like that.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Yeah, and I and I think a lot of things with religion gets kind of eskewed because somebody's just like it it they they let their personal preference influence them.

SPEAKER_06 42:24

I mean, people do that regardless, but one of the sort of functions of religion from sort of a a meta standpoint is to sort of police people's behavior.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:40

In order to have a functioning society.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Um it's literally the scariest bedtime story ever told.

SPEAKER_06 42:48

Yeah. Um, so I don't know. When it when it comes to stuff like this, a lot of it's not really all that relevant

Until Next Time!

SPEAKER_06 43:00

as far as like policing the overall populace's behavior.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Like, yeah. It's just it's amazing to me that 2,000 plus years ago, we knew it was okay if a consenting boy, adult like you know, Nambla. Fuck Nambla. And a consenting man with another consenting man was okay. Yeah, a consenting woman with a consenting, you know, like every iteration of sexual of consenting adults you can think of was accepted. It's like this is fine. Your youth is for these things, it's for these activities, it's for this exploration, it is for all these things. But as you get older, you have to understand that all those things may not be applicable to you in life later in life. It might not be even something you're interested in. So play while you're young and when you're ready to settle down and start maturing into a grown adult, which there's a difference between being a grown, being a consenting adult. And being a grown adult. There's a very big difference. There is a level of maturity that comes with it.

SPEAKER_06 44:07

I mean, especially when adult used to mean you were 13.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah. And that is not applicable anymore. We do not live in Alabama, where it's now 16. Uh, but we we don't live in Alabama. Uh so we're not like most of the world. But and again, everything must be consensual. That needs to be the word of the year. Consensual. Um, so we did it right back then, but now we still want to judge it differently now. I don't know. It's interesting. Anyways, all time we got for today. There's a little bit more, some really cool stuff to talk about with the Kama Sutra. And that would be obviously the sutras themselves. What the primary four sutras are that'll focus. So we'll probably get those knocked out in the next couple episodes. But it's really cool stuff. So I hope you guys have a great day.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

Later.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Bye. Thank you for joining us on our After Dark journey today. Please follow, like, subscribe, and share. Until next time.

SPEAKER_06 45:17

Later.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Bye.