Retail Media Vibes
Retail Media Vibes is your marketing lens on the world of shopping, commerce, and culture. Each episode brings fresh conversations with industry insiders who break down the stories driving how brands reach shoppers and how shoppers connect with brands. From big retail moments to the latest shifts in digital media, it’s your front-row seat to the strategies shaping the future of commerce.
We keep it smart, energetic, and actionable, mixing sharp analysis with good vibes so you walk away informed and inspired. Whether you’re a retail pro, a marketer looking for an edge, or simply curious about where the industry is headed, this podcast is made for you.
Join the vibe and stay ahead in retail media.
Retail Media Vibes
Ep. 3 - Measuring What Matters in Retail Media
Ever wish retail media dashboards told the real story? We pull back the curtain on how to measure what actually matters, not just what’s easy to count. Brandon welcomes Cassie Murray to unpack the messy truth about ROAS, why incrementality is a worthy but difficult North Star, and how inventory, placement, and profitability can quietly decide your campaign’s fate long before a single impression is served.
We get practical about omnichannel reality: when a shelf holds four facings and the truck comes once a week, “always-on” search might be the wrong answer. Cassie shares how to set objectives first, defend base, recruit new-to-brand, or drive profitable volume, then choose metrics that ladder up without chasing vanity numbers. We also explore modeling, cross-retailer context, and the pressure cooker of reporting, where a dip in CTR sparks panic, even when the plan is working.
From there, we head into marketplaces, the proving ground for challenger brands and a minefield when compliance slips. Learn why Walmart’s tighter standards help shoppers and brand equity, how small brands can use marketplace momentum to earn shelf space, and how big brands can extend assortments without losing control. We also break down Walmart’s road tour as smart retailtainment that builds community, and we test the potential of Amazon Lens as visual search moves from novelty to utility.
Finally, we talk about Target. The curated magic that once fueled three-hour trips has dulled as discretionary budgets shrink and Walmart’s style game improves. What would it take for Target to be unapologetically itself again, with cleaner stores, tighter curation, reliable availability, and trend-right private label that earns the trip? If you care about measurement, marketplaces, and the evolving store experience, this one brings clarity you can act on today.
If this sparked new ideas or challenged your playbook, subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review. What metric do you trust most right now?
What's up, party people? BV here for another episode of Retail Media Vibes. We're episode three. Retail Media Vibes is a doing business in Bentonville podcast, and we are being recorded at Podcast Video Studios in Rogers, Arkansas. Today I have my guest, Cassie Murray, and we'll be going through uh and chatting today about measurement and retail, what really matters, understanding e-commerce marketplaces, and what happened to Target's mojo. So if you ever want to get a podcast recorded, I highly recommend Podcast Video Studios here in Rogers. They are a professional team and they take care of all the work that you probably don't want to do to create a podcast. And you can just come in and focus on your content just like I do every single time. So come check them out here in Rogers. All right, so now on with the show. So we're gonna start off meeting with our guest today and do a little vibe chat with Cassie Murray. Hi, Cassie. How are you?
SPEAKER_00:Hello, Brandon. I am doing great.
SPEAKER_02:Awesome. Well, um excited to have you on. Um, you know, we've been talking a little bit about having you on the podcast for a while, so I'm really excited that we actually made the podcast happen and actually have you on the podcast. So love to get to know you. I know you a bit, but obviously we want our audience to get to know you a bit as well. And so why don't you you know share a little bit about your background and ask a few more questions?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um I have kind of made it a point in my career to stay on the front side of digital and omnicommerce transformation as it impacts more of the shopper marketing side. And so my path has been brand, it's been independent media companies, was with Triad you know early on in my career and even retailtainment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Um what what really gets you excited about retail, right? So this retail media vibes, you've got that background in retail. Like what what are the things that get you excited about it?
SPEAKER_00:I love that what we are talking about today will be outdated likely by this time next year. Yeah. And so I know that's not for everybody, but I love the change because it's a constant challenge. We're always something new and fresh to pay attention to.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And that's you know, one of the reasons why I started this podcast is because the change of of retail, retail media, what the definition of retail media is, and you know, there's such a great community of people who work in this space that I just love, and so it's it was it was great to be able to start the podcast. Um so let me kind of give you a little bit of an icebreaker question. So uh if you had a virtual AI assistant, think about that for a second, somebody some something, somebody, I guess that could do three things for you, what would those first three things you would ask them to do?
SPEAKER_00:And this is where with AI I love it, but what I really want done is my laundry. I want my floors cleaned, I want the beds cleaned. You want a robot, you don't want an AI robot. I want I want an AI robot. But until then, um I kind of started playing around with all the shortcut automations and NFCs. And so I like being able to like tap in if we need more dog food, like when the dog food's out, you can and it sends a shortcut and it will send a text and then add to list. Sometimes it doesn't work. So, like, I mean with any technology, we're still doing that. But I think more of like the virtual assistant stuff, like scheduling doctor's appointment, like the mundane, like just boring things is what I would hand over more readily.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, for me, like you know, thinking about my an AI assistant, I think it's one of those things that keeps me on track, right? So I've always thought of AI as it should be more of a push than a pull, right? So obviously there's some sort of stimulus and you get back a response. I would love an AI that'd say, hey, you know what, you've got a meeting, a big meeting in a week. You should really start on that presentation now, right? So you're not waiting till last minute or you get distracted with other things.
SPEAKER_00:Or even finding like efficiencies in your schedule and being like, hey, I know on Thursday you were needing to pick up the dry cleaning, but you'll be over there Wednesday. Right. And it like moves it in your schedule so that it like saves you time and energy, like that part, the efficiency and the optimization part, if they could just do that for me, if like instead of me going, oh dang it, I forgot to do that, or man, now I've got to drive completely across town for just one thing. And I was just over here yesterday. Like if it could tell that I was like in downtown Bentonville, right? Be like, hey, you've been meaning to stop by the T and Spice shop.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it would remind me while I'm down there because I don't always remember.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And it's you know, it I think we're on that path to getting there because of the way that you know, apps and agents will be able to communicate behind the scenes and you know get better at doing those those things, at least those reminders and those pushes. Um, so yeah, I think I mean that I think everybody could benefit from that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, cool. All right, Cassie. Well, thank you, thanks for that. Let's um now go into our quick hit topic. So a little topical banter, right? That's why we're here to talk about some things that are happening out there in retail media and and marketing. Um, so the first one is Amazon Lens. So they've added a visual search, a live visual search. So I think you would there was always that opportunity to take a picture of something and send it in and get back a response. Now it's live, right? So you can open up the camera, it's live streaming, it'll pick up something in a room. There'll be a swipable carousel of products. It's integrated with their AI, Rufus, and you can query about you know about the product directly within that, within that stream. Um, and so it really is like kind of a new opportunity to you know look at and find products that are in the physical environment and bring them obviously into e-commerce and obviously ask questions about it and and and and so forth. So, you know, on one hand, I can see the benefit of that, but to be honest, like I've never really used Visual Search too much personally, uh for shopping purposes, especially. I mean, I might do something with a bug. Like I what what the heck kind of bug is this or a plant, right? But I've never done that typically with shopping. I mean, what what's your impression of like where that could be beneficial and would that be something you you would use?
SPEAKER_00:So I um kind of was playing around with it when we were talking about this podcast because I hadn't used it really and I knew it was there, but I hadn't had a reason to use it. Right. Um but very similar to you, I use Google Lens a lot for like if we're out thrifting and then there's some like random piece. I wanted like, what is this? And you know, is it cool? Or a bug, you know, things like that. But I use it, I also use it for pricing to see like where everything's being sold and for what price. And so I think Amazon, it's gonna be interesting because I actually took it into a store with me and would scan and see what the price was on Amazon or if they at least had something comparable because it does bring up like items, not just exact matches. And so it could create a more competitive space. I mean, we know shoppers are already doing it on their phones, like when they're in stores, it's not uncommon for somebody to price check larger items. But if it's something you need shipped and maybe, I don't know, toilet paper or something like not that an instant need or like that you're just looking at and like maybe, oh, maybe Amazon has it cheaper. And right depending on you know their systems, because you know they're such a closed loop system with all of their media, could they know that you're about to purchase and you know suggest that you price check while you're out shopping? Like will it get to that point? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, well, knowing Amazon, knowing Amazon, they're probably monitoring your location. They may know what store you're in, right? And so they're using that data as you're using that live search to inform their systems in order to, you know, for whatever reason, right? You know, make a better product selection, hit you with ads, you know, whatever they they they might do that for.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I think we'll see. Like I said, in the advertising and maybe even potentially in social, you know, they integrate and listen. So like, you know, if people are buying those media or those audiences, be like, oh, somebody that has been scanning a lot of this aesthetic type item, and so they know that they could target those people. I always tell people when people, you know, they go on the government rants about, oh, the government's tracking me. I'm like, it is not. I mean, they are maybe, but it's me. It's people like me, it's marketers.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:We are tracking you guys on a scary, scary level sometimes.
SPEAKER_02:I feel a little bad about that.
SPEAKER_00:I do sometimes. Just a little just a little bit. Sometimes. All right.
SPEAKER_02:All right, let's move on to our next quick hit. So Walmart is, you know, Walmart talks has talked a lot about retailtainment over the years, right? And that was one of the areas that you said you've enjoyed quite a bit. Uh so Walmart is taking the idea from a TikTok FYP or for you page and bringing it to life through a road tour, right? So they're gonna have semi-trucks that are traveling around to different events in different locations, not just Walmart parking lots, but other locations. And so there a lot of these are centered around Gen Z interests. There's K-pop, retro gaming, there's a rodeo truck, there's a nature truck, and there's even one for like workout, post-post-workout, and self-self-care. So it's it's it's really trying to bring you know what people interact with on screens and trying to bring it into real life. So you've got this, this, this transition of social media to the physical environment. And so, you know, do these do you feel like like retailtainment and things like this and what Walmart is doing with FYP, do you feel like it really makes a difference? Is it you know, is it really bring shoppers to retail? Does it really build brands? Like what are your thoughts around you know an activity like this?
SPEAKER_00:So I will say I love a good retailtainment program. To your point, I started in that space. Um, but retail the way that they're doing these FYP, if that is the quintessential definition of what Omni is and what Omni has become, because you are taking a digital experience or something that has happened in a whole other place and you are taking it to where you know your shoppers are. So you're bringing it to a point of intersection. And so by taking these trucks, these Walmart trucks to some of these events, I think that's going to resonate really well with the shopper. Sometimes they can fall flat when you just have them at the Walmart parking lot. And if you don't do enough marketing behind it or don't understand like the because there can be several Walmarts in a certain area, which one is actually the best one that you need to be at? Right. And so I think you know, sometimes we oversimplify the retailtainment approach, but really if you're approaching it with an omni-perspective, and because I mean, good, bad, or indifferent, most of our youth they spend a ridiculous amount of time on screen. Hell, I spend a ridiculous amount of time on screens now. So while none of those are my thing, but I do have kids that are in this range, and that was kind of something I was thinking about. I was like, did they take the opportunity to target the parents that they can identify that have children in this space? I have one that the K-pop stuff, if it was here, he would love to go. Right. But I haven't necessarily been targeted with anything yet. And so I think there's also that, like, while Gen Z like they're still young enough in that kind of section that the older ones, yeah, they're they're in college, they're like they're buying power, all of that. But there's a whole subset of that, what, 12, I think, is probably the youngest in that um bracket we're looking at. Yeah, they are not driving themselves to Walmart. So while like part of the concern, I think people are like, oh, it's not going to resonate with the core Walmart shopper. Well, it's not meant to resonate with the core Walmart shopper, it's meant to be engaging so that they want to come and to bring a new shopper into the store that is very heavily screen dependent.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Like Yeah, and what I like about it too is it's it's brand building, but it's also community building, right? And so the community usually rallies around these type of events, right? And so, you know, whether it's a Saturday morning at a Walmart or or you know, if a Friday afternoon at a park or you know, wherever the trucks are going, and there's a whole schedule on Walmart's uh Walmart's side around this on where they're gonna be, you know, it it does bring people, you know, it does bring people together, it brings people to these events and gives families an opportunity to you know have a little fun, you know, um with their with their kids or or or even young adults, you know, some they're looking for something, something to do. And you know, Walmart is behind it. And so I feel like it's a great, it's a great opportunity for the brand. You know, is it gonna change the world? Is it gonna change no, but I think it's it's a lot of these little things that add up over time.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's important also is like when especially when we kind of hit on measurement later on in this section, like it's brand building, but they are hard to generate a profitable return because of the expense that goes into creating the assets, the the fuel, the travel time, the just the people, all the different certifications and insurances that you have to do. Like so brand building, but you need to look at it from what it is and not necessarily from just a straight ROAS perspective. There is going to be a more long tail opportunity on those than an immediate we just saw a 7% lift at store XYZ, you know, because we had the truck there. Like that's hopefully that is not the expectation, and they will appreciate it for what it is.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Cool. All right, so the last quick hit we have McDonald's, right? Not not typically a retail media, but for bear with me for a second. Um I'm trying, I'm not gonna rant, I promise. But McDonald's just recently brought back extra value meals. Um I think I remember when McDonald's started extra value meals. I think at that time extra value meals were maybe like$2.99. Right. Extra value meals are eight dollars, Cassie. Eight dollars. Like that, you know, I know the meals themselves are like twelve ish, twelve to thirteen dollars, I think, now in in a lot of ways. But eight dollars, I mean that's that's quite quite high.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like it's a much bigger like those those two numbers are way closer together than they used to be too, right? Like because the value mill was two, three dollars, and back then a full meal was like, you know, probably around ten still, maybe eight to ten. But that's a significant savings gap. But now we're going eight to you know, eight to twelve, we're shortening that, you know, space, and so it's not really a value.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Do you think like other other QSR uh restaurants are also going to you know amplify their value menu, so to speak, you know, as as you know, there are questions of whether or not what's happening with the economy and you know, economic headwinds, as I like to say. Economic headwinds. But like the when when the financial time financial and economic times get a little bit tough, brands start to talk more about value. Right. So they can kind of maintain a price point that's reasonable, but you're getting more for your money. So you know value is obviously a key term. You think this will start a trend of price wars of value meals across the QSR landscape?
SPEAKER_00:I sure hope so.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like, I mean, because even I know Sonic has started with like uh, you know, like a little two to three dollar subset menu in the app, and Taco Bell has theirs, and I've started noticing um, because I get the Sonic push notifications that they've been pushing a lot more, it feels like lately than they have historically. Um but yeah, all of us are gonna be facing the same problem that QSR is. It's it's going to become a share of dollar conversation. Right. And so you have to establish the value, you know, the QSR is therefore of convenience, and convenience is key right now. So they'll probably do fine. But yeah, I would I hope they do. I want to see some like good social media wars with like Burger King talking, you know, smack to Wendy's, talking smack up McDonald's about their value meal, and it's not actually a value.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_00:It's always good entertainment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. We'll see. We'll see how that goes. And get your Big Mac meal for$8 and your sausage McMuffin with egg milk for five.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just I'm gonna do a happy meal, I guess, and get this. I get a toy with it.
SPEAKER_02:That could be a whole other topic for another day, those those promotions and incentives. All right. So all right, so that was the quick hits. So now let's get into our bigger, meatier, I guess, topics. I mean, we just talked about hamburgers, so I guess that's a a good transition, right? Um, so top our first topic, we're gonna talk about measurement and retail and what really matters. And I we could probably do a whole podcast just on this because I think it's such a hot topic in retail, right? And so whenever the conversation in retail comes up, there's it it's there's just this groan around measurement, right? It's like, well, you know, that we can measure this, we can't measure that, the numbers that I see don't reflect my sales. Um, you know, every retailer has their own measurement criteria, KPIs aren't aren't the same, numbers don't line up, you know, and brands, you know, brands that are controlling more of the retail media budgets, you know, they want to see results that you know before they release funds, right? And so it's really becoming a a bit more challenging, really, you know, in the conversations that that we're having. You know, it's clear that incrementality is one that is a a clear North Star that everybody really wants to see, is you know, did my marketing or did my media actually drive incremental sales, not just capture people who would have bought already? But you know, it's it's hard, it's hard to measure, right? Because you know, last point attribution, last click, you know, that there's yeah, all of these things actually are coming coming together. So, you know, from your perspective, and you're definitely well more way more versed on on measurement and your experiences than I am, but like what is your perspective on the value of measurement, where where measurement is headed, you know, and also considering online versus in-store, because you know, we you mentioned omnichannel earlier. We're you know these are omnichannel shoppers, they're shopping online, they're shopping in store. It's all about convenience. How do we measure to make sure that our media or marketing activities are actually driving the bottom line?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I mean to your point, there is uh 80% of grocery shopping st or 70 to 80 percent still happens in store. Right. So that is a huge component of this, especially with your Walmarts, your Costco's, your SAMS, your Kroger's, all of those, because they they are brick and mortars first and foremost, and you know, but they need to be able to engage that person in a digital experience. Even if the shopper isn't necessarily a digital shopper in that ecosystem, you're still trying to impact that in-store shopping behavior. And can I just can we get rid of ROAS?
SPEAKER_02:ROAS is the best metric.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know how many conversations I've had over the years. Okay. And ro and ROAS used to be, I mean, we didn't have much more, like we would look at ROAS goals, you know, it was better than click-through rate and impressions, but it still doesn't tell, it just tracks the number of sales that happened during the period that your media ran. And um in that space, like it's just it's incomplete. And even on the incremental side of it, um, understanding that incremental value can be very difficult. I will say I don't think there's a one end-all-be-all solution. I have been fortunate to be able to partner with, I have partnered with a lot of different data, you know, the IRIs, the ANSAs, the Nielsen's, the, you know, um most recently I'd onboarded a newer company called Peak, and they were using AI modeling to kind of flatten out all of those other things that happen in a market, you know, weather trends and things like that, um, but also to look at it from a cross-retailer perspective, because that is the other big issue with this is Walmart's reporting is not going to be the same as Kroger's reporting. And even the impact of something like search, you know, you're not Kroger could be driving more incrementality in your search, but have a lower ROAS just because they don't have the space to grow like Walmart does. And so kind of levelizing that playing field, even for me in that space, um, I was with fresh and frozen items at Dollar General. They only get a truck once a week. So if you run through the product, and they also have very limited shelf space for that product. So you might get four items on a shelf at a time, but if you're running promotions and things like that, well, once you run through that inventory, like there's not a much opportunity for incrementality.
SPEAKER_02:That's that's such a great point because I think there are always aspects to you know sales that go beyond just media on shelf on shelf availability is an important part, right? Right. And it just makes so much sense. So, yeah, in that example, and I had no idea, like you only get one truck a week. Yeah, if you run through your five or six items on the shelf, yeah, no matter how much media you run, you're not going to increase your sales, right? You probably should stop media at that point, right? Depending on what the promotion is, right?
SPEAKER_00:And then depending on how well the inventory is tracked, you may not know what your true inventory is, especially on smaller items that are easily handheld, like individual wrapped ice cream, um 20-ounce single serves. I've been on two brands that we had that problem, and then those things like to walk away a lot. So your inventory is always off. Um but that even goes into the whole measurement conversation. And you can even look at measurement from an opportunity of declining, like if you are facing hemorrhaging or rapidly declining sales, maybe you didn't drive any incrementality, but did you slow the hemorrhage?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Like did you stop, or was there a competitor coming in? Did you manage to stop losing share? You know, there's so many other factors to it that need to be considered and not just row as and not just incrementality, right? Because you may not. But in that incrementality conversation with Dollar General, it gives you the opportunity to go back on the sales side and say, hey, we are looking at running some kind of pricing promotion, blah, blah, blah to support your business, but we need incremental placement. How do we get that for this time frame?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And the same conversation with Walmart. You know, we would intentionally ramp up sales during that time if we were getting in cap or feature placement because we had more inventory that we could move. Right. You know, Walmart, we didn't necessarily have the inventory issues like Dollar General, but it takes into consideration. And then also comparing Dollar General spend directly to a Walmart spend and even digital media to digital media, like you're talking very different shoppers, very different ecosystems. Like it's it's not apples to apples.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's super complex, super complicated. I think, you know, and I I've talked about this on other podcasts, is like the expectation of your retail media strategist, you know, considering omnichannel, uh, considering all the retailers, knowing all the nuances, is very i it's difficult, right? And it's it's it's super challenging. I I think you know, from from my perspective and what I've seen, it's like, you know, let's be clear on what the objective is, right? So are are we trying to defend our position? Are we trying to gain incrementality? Really be realistic of who the retailer is and what you're trying to achieve. I think that will go a long way. And then understand, like, you know, because I've been in conversations where you know measurement perfection is expected when measurement perfection does not exist. You know, it does not exist. It does not exist, right? And so some brands don't like modeling, right? They don't want you to model, they want to use a different methodology, and there's several different methodologies to get there. But you know, it it is it is interesting how you know measurement is such a key role, and I think clarity up front doesn't all it isn't done com you know, it doesn't isn't done all the time, right? It's just you know, having that clarity is so important.
SPEAKER_00:Even when you have clarity up front, I have caught myself, I mean, my plans, I set the KPIs, and then I start seeing the results, and it's something like, I don't know, a a metric that I'm used to seeing it be higher.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And it really doesn't matter to the what we're looking at, but it does take you a moment to like stop yourself and go, that doesn't matter right now. It is technically doing what we want it to do.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:But you know, when you are so trained to look at certain metrics or like a click-through rate that decreases, like, or you know, something like that that we we've always traditionally looked at, it you almost have to retrain yourself too to stop and go, wait a second, what is our true goal? Right. What is the KPI? So what if this other number isn't doing this because that's not the goal of this number for this time? And I mean, and then communicating that with sales and with your leadership, you know, because that's always coming back to that. If your KPI was new to brand shoppers, okay, great. We may not see as much incremental lift as we would have on a traditional program because we were solely focused on new to brand shoppers.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So that new to brand percent is really what's going to matter to us more than the total IRO as.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah, yeah. And I think we get confused sometimes on the difference between a campaign objective and a media objective. Yes. The media jet objective should support the campaign objective, but they aren't one in the same 99% of the time.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell Well, and usually there's multiple tactics. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, so you yeah, to hold them all to that same and then as long as it's funneling up and just reminding yourself that what the goal was.
SPEAKER_02:Aaron Powell Well, and being on the agency side, so as I've been, and you've been on the brand side, Cassie, so you you you understand where I'm coming from on this one, but there's a lot of pressure when when an agency is looking at the numbers. And to your point about why did the click-through rate change, even though that may not be necessarily the focus of the campaign, right? But it but it in the in the meeting, right, in the in the report that we have to send over to a brand and say, hey, something changed and everybody wants to optimize everything, right? Because we're in this performance media mindset across the entire ecosystem, right? And so it it adds that pressure, right? Well, why did the click-through rate go down 0.01%? Well, I don't know. What can we do to change that? Why do we need to change it? Yeah, why do we need to change it? And I think so. I think you know, there is there's you know the pressure on the agency side, obviously there's pressure on the brand side too, because the shopper marketer that's looking at the report has to report up to somebody else, and there's somebody who's asking them a question, right? And so just from just my perspective, I think sometimes we get too focused in on the numbers.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The detailed numbers, right? Like when you're running a campaign, yes, there are KPIs and KPIs are there for obviously very specific reasons. But what I've seen generally in in my career has been like when you do a can't when you do a campaign with the right communication strategy, right? With the it's the right idea, the right communication, the right media channels, working together, you're gonna see good results, right? Right. Whether or not and and I know I understand why, right? I understand everybody wants to justify why things were spent the way they were and make sure that we can repeat it again the next time because everybody wants to get to a formulaic result or formulaic process. Oh, if I do this, this, and this every time I'm gonna get X percent of improvement in sales. That's not always the case, right? And so I think sometimes I think we use the numbers are just used not necessarily improperly, but I think the emphasis that are put on some of these numbers may not necessarily always be the right focal areas when you've got to look at the bigger picture to really see what it can because it's all of these touch points that all add up together to really result in in incrementality or improvement in sales or defending a position or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, and then you throw in profitability.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well.
SPEAKER_00:What does that actually mean? And then you start having the profitability conversations. And I'll say I think the one thing I learned was to get really good about asking questions of, you know, when those asks were coming down and even sitting down and saying, okay, do we just want to move volume or do we want to move profitable volume? And those two things do not go hand in hand usually. And moving profitable volume is not going to be the same as just moving volume.
SPEAKER_02:Right. You know, maybe you have something on a shelf that is, you know, there's a changeover, right? There's a new product and you've got to move product or you know, product is getting close to expiration, you've got to move that. So at that point you don't really care if you're profitable, you're just trying to make space so the new product can can come up, right? And so like these are all of the things that you know all kind of come together and in figuring out, okay, you know, success, measurement and success I think I think almost like success really goes back to what you're trying to achieve in your campaign. Right. And then, you know, and then the measurement are are some key key key points, key metrics within that campaign that give you indications. Yeah. Maybe not solely, but give you indications of how things are going based upon levers you can pull.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and even when you think about, you know, so talking just full campaign on me and that structure, but then when you go into just that digital experience and just that e-commerce experience, you know, searches like, you know, and they'll always tell you, oh, you should be on 24 hours a day, seven days a week, evergreen. Uh my definition of evergreen has always been a little bit different. We're on consistently.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:May or may not be every, you know, all day, you know, throw some day parting in, you know, because I've never actually had a fully funded budget ever in my entire career. So I'm used to being scrappy and I've been used to like, okay, where where are these dollars going to go most? But even understanding that that e-commerce impact, so like a$22 return on ad spend on search, and even if you're you know, but are you driving more digital penetration? Because that's really how you're gonna show growth, unless your in-store sales are raising at the same rate of your online sales. But then you just need your digital penetration to not decrease. Yeah. You know, and so again, like different so many levers, right? So many levers, so much to look at, but just the differentiation between like these things are not the same. They mean different things. You know, that your omni, your digital percentage, while that number might be great, is still only 15 to 25 percent. of your total sales. Walmart's pushing everybody to get to 30% right now. Some categories, I don't know how they'll ever, you know, they might get there eventually. Right. But, you know, it is what it is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well I'm glad we were able to figure out measurement in retail media. So anytime you ever have questions, I mean I don't have it figured out.
SPEAKER_00:I just like talking about I like problems. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I like to fix, you know, so no we figured it out and everybody everybody is good together.
SPEAKER_00:We've got it.
SPEAKER_02:All right. Moving on now to we're going to talk about uh e-commerce marketplaces. So my background wasn't I didn't work with marketplace brands very very often or actually at all when I was you know in former former roles, right? And so in my new role I have had more exposure to marketplaces and especially marketplace sellers. And I just went to the Marketplace Summit in in San Diego for Walmart, Walmart's Marketplace Summit, and got to really spend time firsthand with a lot of these marketplace marketplace sellers. I know you've had a lot more exposure. Marketplaces are, you know, it isn't just Walmart. There's Amazon, you know, Best Buy just started their marketplace back up again. eBay is a marketplace. One of the ones that I find interesting just because of my hobby of sneaker collecting is StockX is a marketplace.
SPEAKER_00:I wore fun sneakers just for this too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah we maybe you gotta put it on the table.
SPEAKER_00:I I brought these in I even have my little my little lace tips are different colors and they're different on the other shoe too. But these are just for Brandon because I know he has a sneaker thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah and so the really interesting thing for me is like StockX is a marketplace and they're a marketplace partner for Walmart, right? So it's like a it's almost like marketplace inception right you can buy Louis Vuitton purses on Walmart sometimes. Yeah yeah I mean well is it Louis Vuitton I haven't I haven't tried all right I yeah yeah so but you know my exposure to marketplaces like a lot of these are like small challenger brands they're trying to get distribution whether it's through Walmart or maybe they're you know maybe they're participating on one marketplace with Amazon and they want to you know cross over to Walmart and expand again expand their expand their reach. And you know I I'd love to hear from you kind of like your experience you know with marketplace sellers because I think there are some pros and cons to marketplaces and I know we've talked about that a little bit and yeah I know you know in my experience with you know big brands like the way they see marketplace sellers is probably quite a bit different. But like these these sellers a lot of them you know they're their own companies and they support a community and and they're you know they're selling product like so they have a role right and there's they should have an opportunity to to sell but it sounds like you know there are our pros and cons to that. So I'd love to hear from you like what your perspective on marketplace sellers and marketplaces are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and I you know being on the brand side I have definitely had that experience where they are more of a thorn in my side than anything else when they're reselling like again having a refrigerated item and having three P sellers reselling it like Walmart did not have like there was no FDA compliancy. They didn't have to prove that they were shipping it refrigerated and people were actually ordering this product and then we would get the negative complaints because it either never showed up. They were kind of like$12 for something that was like$3 in store. But you know it but then we get the complaint in the bad review on our page because the average Walmart shopper does not know that that's a difference that it needs to say you know sold by Walmart to truly be like a one P item to be fair that's pretty fine print too. It is I mean I didn't even know where to look until somebody had pointed like we all had to learn sometime. And even from the marketplace side so I've been very fortunate in my career to have several touch points with US Open Call which is when Walmart brings in all of the small brands and I've been able to be on site and like act as a resource for these brands as they're going into these merchant meetings and again when you talk about the community like when you get to meet the people behind these brands oh it's such an amazing experience. But so they're going in and what a lot of them if they don't even if they get a golden ticket they might only get 20 to 50 stores to test.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know and so it's not necessarily a great thing but they get pushed to also set up a marketplace and then they can you know the fulfillment options and everything so it's not as profitable from a margin perspective for them usually but it can be good if they've got one item in 20 stores and they are able to grow some sales there and then that marketplace side of it but just the e com the way people shop Walmart they're not sh they don't shop it like Amazon yet. And I think that'll get you know that's it's gotten a lot better from where we started. Oh yeah 100% and it'll continue to get better but I think there's certain items that on Walmart marketplace do fall kind of flat yeah because people aren't necessarily going with that mentality of this is also a marketplace like Amazon. And I think Walmart's you know they recently changed with um the F kind of making sure everybody has FDA compliant and a certified reseller right at the beginning of end of July beginning of August timeframe. Which was huge because there's been brands I mean I'm sure with P and G and your background and experience you've seen those situations where people are are buying empty containers and filling them with who knows what. Right. And it's dangerous for people. And not that Walmart or Amazon or Best Buy should take on that responsibility but at some point like I feel like there needs to be a little bit more if it's your marketplace you're still somewhat responsible for who you allow to be on there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah and I think you know there's obviously you know marketplaces are used for different types of sell uh sales right so there's you know your challenger brands new brands starting up right you have your um your arbitrage right people who are finding products at a discounted rate and then they're reselling them and making a few more doll you know a few dollars on each of those. And then you have you know like you were talking about where you know there are people who are you know selling product that is counterfeit in in one way shape or form right obviously that's the the one we we we want to avoid for sure. The arbitrage thing you know good for them you know good for them. Like if you want to do all of that legwork you know to make a couple of dollars per unit okay good good for you. But you know the they the ones I really liked supporting obviously are the challenger brands right into it to a great extent I think you know challenger brands are willing to take risks they're willing to do things that you know the big brands may not feel as comfortable doing or or may not want to do for whatever reason. You know I think you know see you know talking to some of these challenger brands and hearing their stories about what they're doing and why they're doing it and how they're doing it was you know was inspiring to me but in the but the challenger brands of today become the big brands of tomorrow or have the potential. They have the potential. So it's it's I think it's like anything right you know you can't have anything nice right so there's always going to be I think people who take advantage of you know things that um are for the you know maybe intended for the good of a broader audience and then they use them for not so good reasons. And yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So and Walmart is using it as a testing ground. So if if one of these challenger brands can get in and show enough sales within a week like I know some merchants that have alerts set that they get a report every week that if a brand sells over five thousand dollars in marketplace they pull them up to see who they are and and maybe get them an opportunity to actually get in store and it's got to the point that you know merchants and Walmart as a whole like it's coming out that if you are not a best in class omni shop omni brand you are not going to have in-store shelf space. Like so your digital presence if it means having the extension of your brand you know SKU set on marketplace to make sure because they share a brand shop you know it allows that opportunity to kind of prove prove yourself out before going into shelf yeah yeah yeah for sure those those that is the proving ground right yeah proving ground so yeah so you know I don't think marketplaces are going anywhere. No.
SPEAKER_02:I think more market you know probably more marketplaces will will end up popping up. I think there's still some things to get figured out but I do think like you know it it the idea around marketplaces is to provide can you know more assortment exactly more you know potentially value potentially convenience through those channels like a Walmart or Amazon to get those products into people's hands. Obviously a lot of people shop Amazon quite a bit because they know they can find a great assortment of items and it you know it comes with convenience and so I think we know Walmart's trying to do the same thing and I think anybody that has a marketplace that is that is the end yeah that is the intent. So yeah. All right let's uh move on to our third and final topic uh today is you know what happened to Target's mojo um you know Target known as Target right that's what the cool kids call it um it was like to me you know with with Target you know they've had some they've they've kind of taken a a bit of a downturn for sure um you know they haven't been as they haven't been profitable in in several consecutive quarters you know um you know we were talking about previously like the the state of some of the Target stores were not what what it used what they used to be as far as what you know it was kind of messy, disheveled, you know, etc. But Mark but Target used to be like where people would go and buy clothes. It would be where they would go buy home goods.
SPEAKER_00:It was a social experience. Like you could go you would see the memes about the mom that went to Target just to grab toilet paper, toothpaste and three hours and$300 later she's walking out with a whole new pillow set and new sheets and a Starbucks on their way out. And so they really kind of had that experience part of it that was so big to their in-store and just the trend side of it. But yeah they've they've been on the struggle bus a lot.
SPEAKER_02:And I you know you know people would go to you know Target had the Pinterest end caps you know at the end of the aisle at the end of the aisle. And I think there's you know there's been you know there's been a transition there has been a change and I think you know Walmart has definitely I think started to fill the gap. I think one of the things that you know I was reading was you know people would spend their discretionary income at Target and you know their essentials at Walmart right? Yes. And so you know again we talked a little bit about economic headwinds um earlier right and so I think some of that discretionary income or dis you know spending is has been reduced.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Plus they're going to Walmart. Now Walmart has also improved their selection like I I don't think there's such the you know so i people are looking at Walmart as a I want to say a fashion destination but they're definitely more open to and and like the fashion from Walmart I think they know that Walmart's gonna have some of the top trends. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know maybe not all of them but you know and especially in like the home side of it you know that was one we talked about like they've launched the pioneer woman side of it. You know they have these different lines that are definitely appealing to different demographics. And then you have your Drew Berry more beautiful launch of all these very aesthetically pleasing items that are affordable priced.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And then you have Paris Hilton's new line that just came out you know and it's it's everything that you would expect from Paris Hilton. And even the same on the apparel you know seeing the the trends that come in they've they've picked a few and they seem to have hit well and I will say the quality seems better than it used to be but I do think Walmart stepped up and had been stepping up and when and to exactly your point people were going to target with their discretionary funds they definitely had their loyalists that were very heavy app users and everything else but um I was looking at a report uh Crazy coupon lady they do a lot of surveys with their database because they have just such a high user base that's one of the a great thing that you know I've used them for in my past but on theirs it was like 32% of um you know out of the respondents and there's only like 3,000 in there. So it's it's a directional one at best. But was these people that they weren't primary target shoppers but you know they so they weren't necessarily loyalists but they were going in often enough and like when they moved from their DEI stance and they kind of made some of those choices all these like it's like the perfect storm. So people have discretionary funds or are getting to where they have limited discretionary funds and they can go to Walmart and probably find or even a Kroger or you know coal or probably not Kohl's but you know you know they're they have other options. They have Amazon they have other options and so shoppers speak with their dollars.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Costco has been doing great because of this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah and I think they may you know Target made some choices on their product selection that you know and in quantities and so that that's kind of led to some of the challenges on their bottom line but you know what I had you know what I had seen um what I had seen earlier uh on a in a uh survey at on powercommerce.com was the share of Americans who really like or somewhat like target slid from around 70% in early 2023 to nearly 50% by early 2025. So that's a very significant decrease and you know if if you're not a weekly target shopper like they don't see the obviously they don't see the volume that Walmart might see.
SPEAKER_00:And so that those numbers impact uh them even even even more so well right and going back to the shelf issue if I have tried going into a store not just target any of them but I go in two or three times and what I am going in there for is either the selection's not there because something's out of stock you know all those different issues or if the food is so close to spoil date that it's not even worth buying most shoppers aren't very patient anymore because they have so many other options. Yeah so many options you know so even though all of these missteps may have been slight or not that big had it been the solo item. Yeah um I don't know it kind of what was it the death by a thousand paper cuts?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah a thousand but yeah death death by a thousand papers.
SPEAKER_00:I think they have an opportunity to turn it around.
SPEAKER_02:What what will it take? What do you think? What do you think it'll take for them?
SPEAKER_00:I want to see so when this new leadership comes in he's supposed to start January 2026 I think and he's already internal target so but his one of his statements was let's be unapologetically target and I am hoping that is the target of pre-COVID days.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know I I hope that that target is coming back because I would still love to be able to go in there and have an experience but it's just not that right now to the point it's messy. They are doing really well in playing cards. And I don't know if that's because the foot traffic is down overall and so people that collect like these Pokemon and basically cards I gotcha.
SPEAKER_02:Not playing cards.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just a mom. I I just buy them for the kids.
SPEAKER_02:Yes the Pokemon cards.
SPEAKER_00:But I know if we go to Target we can usually find what we want compared to others. And I think maybe that's in correlation with the decreased foot traffic is just not as many people are going in and so when you go in there's a better chance that you're gonna be able to find those you know whatever Pokemon pack that you're you know hoping to get a a whatever in.
SPEAKER_02:Here first here's a pro tip for all you Pokemon card go to target collectors go to go to Target.
SPEAKER_00:And you know what they always say to look under the shelf I've we've looked several times and I've never actually found any cool cards under there.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah awesome okay well yeah I think Target definitely has some opportunities ahead. I don't think we've heard obviously heard the last from Target.
SPEAKER_00:I think there's they're positioned to do so well. Yeah and I'm I'm hoping that they can go back and be unapologetically targeted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah cool. All right so we're gonna get now to the final well second and final anyway part of our podcast which is our little game so we're gonna do vibe check today and so I'm gonna I'm gonna give you some some statements and I want you just to give me your gut reaction. So um don't think it don't overthink it. Just let me know you know just let me know what you think alright. So um are you ready?
SPEAKER_00:I'm ready.
SPEAKER_02:Alright so first one ROAS is still worth measuring gut reaction.
SPEAKER_00:Oh hey this is a family show is a no way it no way no way alright oh you know what I'll take that back I will never say no way on anything but it shouldn't be your only and strongest measurement indicator of success.
SPEAKER_02:Yes I agree with that I agree with that marketplaces are doing more harm than good for big brands. No, I think if they use it right it's good for them okay um visual search is cool tech but most shoppers are not going to use it adoption time it needs adoption time retailtainment only works if it translates to sales no no all right the return of extra value meals will foc will force a fast food war I think we saw talk about that I hope so you hope so alright well I don't I think of people throwing fast food so that's I don't know if I really want that to happen.
SPEAKER_00:I mean again remember I I have four boys like yeah that it wouldn't even faze me I I'd cheer for it fall is better than spring we'll end it on that one. Yes fall is better than spring I love it fall is my favorite season so it's great. It's I like both but yeah I like football and Halloween and the cooler weather weather the pretty leaves yeah all of it I love it I love it I love it.
SPEAKER_02:Alright party people it is time to wrap up this episode of Retail Media Vibes. I hope you've enjoyed the show today I want to say a special thank you to Cassie for being on the show today and sharing all of your vibes with us. Any last words anything you'd like to plug or talk about today before we wrap?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I mean first thank you so much for having me. This has been great anytime you need anything and then anybody if you're watching this and you have questions you can find me on LinkedIn ask questions like I love to talk about this stuff and if you can't tell I get kind of chatty so let me know. But the other thing I you know a little bit more serious of a note I am the president for our Northwest Arkansas Women's Shelter and as a whole nonprofits over the entire U.S. are going to be having financing struggles so if you have a cause that's near and dear to you in your local community or here try to find a way to support them. There's a lot of federal cuts going on right now that are gonna it's going to make these nonprofits shut their doors. And that means that there's nobody to help those people in need. So it doesn't have to be the women's shelter but if you want to help support let me know. But there's there's so many.
SPEAKER_02:So take some time invest in your local community if you can awesome yeah it's I mean definitely those are um those nonprofits are definitely worth supporting in any way we possibly can. So all right will you come back to the show if I invite you absolutely yeah all right well good I I I like I love hearing that.
SPEAKER_00:In fact if a fast food war does start to happen let's do one and I'll bring my favorite fast food and you can bring yours and we'll talk about which one's actually a value meal.
SPEAKER_02:Which one is the true value? We'll do the math right which one's a true value yeah we'll do some things we'll bring it down by calorie or something like that dollar per calorie.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and then we may not want to eat it after we do that.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe maybe not maybe not um so in the few in a future podcast I plan to do a mailbag segment that ask BV almost anything so if you have any questions you'd like me to answer in a future podcast send that to retailmedia vibes at gmail.com I'll collect those and go through them and we'll do a a mailbag segment. So I hope you enjoyed today's podcast please share it with a friend just in please subscribe retail media vibes it's on all of the different podcast networks it's obviously also on YouTube. So uh with that uh thank you so much for listening and I promise to do better next time. See ya