Ep. 16 - Human Connection: Why Relationships Drive Media Success

Ads on a smart fridge sound like a punchline until you realize it’s already happening. We sit down live in Rogers, Arkansas, flip the script, and let Lindsey Hamm interview BV about where retail media, marketing, and AI are headed and what we might be breaking along the way.

We unpack why AI can be an incredible career amplifier while still being dangerously overused. BV explains how he uses AI for ideation, planning, writing, and staying organized, and why “black box” automation in media buying can weaken strategy if it removes the friction that helps people learn. We get practical about what retail media teams need right now: curiosity, fundamentals across in-store and digital, strong data storytelling, and relationships built shoulder to shoulder with brands, agencies, retailers, and partners.

Then we hit two timely stories shaping the commerce conversation. First, Samsung’s smart fridge ad pilot and the backlash that followed, plus the bigger question of whether advertising is being pushed into spaces that should stay private. Second, the reported shift in how Walmart and OpenAI approach agentic shopping, and why discovery and comparison may be a better near-term fit than instant checkout. We close with rapid-fire “Bold Vibes” on the future of retail media, agency team size, AI theater, risk-taking, and why connection matters more than output.

Subscribe for more honest retail media and AI conversations, share this with a coworker, and leave a review. Where do you think the line is between helpful personalization and pure intrusion?

Transcript

Welcome And The Script Flip

SPEAKER_01 0:08

What's up, party people? BV here, and welcome to another episode of Retail Media Vibes, a doing business in Bentonville podcast. We are recording live at Podcast Video Studios here in Rogers, Arkansas. So Lindsay Ham will be joining me today, and we are flipping the script, and Lindsay will be interviewing me. So, you know, just another reason why I chose Lindsay. Lindsay and I, we go way back. We've been in the trenches together. She has seen me at my best, and she's seen me at my worst. And I think, you know, having someone that has that level of perspective can really dig into some of the things that go around rattling in this head of mine. Uh and try to bring those out and hopefully it is informative and frankly entertaining to all of you. So I'm really excited to have Lindsay back and have her host uh host with me today and uh ask me some of those really thought-provoking questions that uh everybody wants to hear from me, I hope. Anyway, so with all that out of the way, Lindsay, welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

I'm glad to be here. I'm I'm excited. I was excited, I was excited to come back today. So it's an honor for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Well, fun fact you are the first guest that I have had back on the show. Even though I asked them all, will you come back? You are actually the really the first one.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

I am honored.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

It's important to have a certain rapport and comfort level with someone who's going to put you on the hot seat. And again, I usually get that privilege of putting putting others way back, maybe. We do. And I think, you know, uh one of the things I've always said about you and when you came onto the team was, you know, I I wish I had hired you sooner. And, you know, but we'll get we'll get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Don't ever forget that. Don't ever forget that.

Vibe Check And Thinking Ahead

SPEAKER_01 1:57

We'll we'll we'll we'll get into it. So as we always start off, we're gonna start off with some vibe checks. So, Lindsay, what have you been doing since we last met up at the end of the year, end of 2025?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

I have been all over the place. I've been splitting time between Northwest Arkansas and Cincinnati. Um, I did a nice bike race over the over the fall. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I was just 30, 32 miles.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Oh, you know, hey.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Well, it was it was nice. Um, no, I've been taking care of my cats. I have too many cats and dogs, as you know. So um, and just bundled up for the winter. Cincinnati had a tough winter. We had about eight weeks of cold and snow, and so we've been bundled up inside doing puzzles and binge watching TV.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there were moments where we've all had a very hard winter. And so yes. Uh, it's always good to kind of have that cozy time during but you do want that spring to come and it feels like it's on its way.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

It's here this week. What 80 plus degrees? We got now.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

It's like 50.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Oh, okay. Don't say that. That was cool. Edit that out. I'm sure now it's done. Yesterday it's 82, so it's nice.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Cool. Um, all right. So how you wanna how do you want to go with this?

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Well, I'm ex excited and honored that I get to interview you today. I um I wanted to start out with a a little bit of a vibe check with you. Okay. So that's since that's that's how you typically start the show.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

I'm gonna do my best to live up to the big shoes that you're you you usually fill as host. But um, yeah, I wanted to do a little biocheck and ask you a really tough question first. And that is, how are we feeling? How how how are you feeling about this? Are you nervous? Are we uh having reservations, maybe regrets already?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Yeah, so I'm I'm good. I'm good. I'm I feel good. I really do. I feel good. I think um, you know, when you have the opportunity to share some of the things that we're gonna talk about today and talk about some of the things, you know, I always I like to share, you know, I like to share my thoughts, my ideas. I also want to hear from others, you know, and that's you know, a really good, a really big part on why I started this podcast was not necessarily for me to verbalize my opinions, but really to hear about others' opinions and have a discussion about what's happening in retail media, what's happening in marketing, what's happening in retail, uh, and what's happening in life, right? So this this this podcast is not just about what happens in media, it's it's about what's happening in life. About people.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

But today the spotlight is on you. So I hope you're ready. All right. So next question. Hopefully that was not too much of a curveball. Um, people know you as podcast VV, we know you as AI BV, we know you as all different things. What's something that maybe people don't know about you right now, or maybe they know, but maybe they're wrong about?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, I would say, you know, what people probably don't know about me is like I'm I I I tend to really think ahead, you know, quite a quite a bit. I I really do try to put a lot of energy and thought into what's ahead. Um part of that is because I track how much time I have left on this planet. So those of you that are are listening may or may not know, I do have a tracker that tracks how many, how many weeks I have yet to live. And it's assuming the average male age. And and so I I but I keep that, and it's actually a Chrome browser extension. So every time I open a new tab, it's there staring me in the face.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Truly scary.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

And I look at all these little red boxes of the weeks I've lived, and then all the green boxes of the opportunity ahead. And so I I I've tried to be a lot more intentional, and that's how I am in I've talked about the fourth quarter of my career, and you know, I'm trying to be a lot more intentional in the fourth quarter of my career. I and at the end of the day, for me, I want to make sure that the time I've spent in life has mattered.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

It's mattered to the people that are close to me, and even mattered to people beyond those that are are are especially close to me. And I really think that you know, that's what motivates me, that's what drives me. That's what has me, you know, decide to start a podcast. Um that's what has me, you know, started, you know, I went into it as a startup, which I know we'll talk a little bit about later on. Um but big moves. Yeah, big moves. And you know, I I feel like for me, even if I even though I am in that fourth quarter of my career, there's still a lot of my story yet to be written. Oh yeah. And I've had a great story up until now, and I'm just really, really thankful and that I have that. And so I I do really think a lot ahead. Yeah. You know, I didn't start this podcast uh thinking about episode one. I started this podcast thing about episode 20, episode 50, episode 100. I didn't want to get into a podcast until I really understood what that could potentially be and it had to have legs. So, you know, I do I do really try to think ahead. I look at the past, yeah, take what I've learned from the past and try to think about how I want to apply that to the future.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

You've always had a great future insight as to what's to come. And that actually brings me to my next question for you.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

All right, look at that time.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

I know I'm doing all right, right. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Uh so thinking a little bit about our industry now.

AI Promise Versus The Black Box

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Where we've been, where we're headed. Um, AI has emerged as this major player. We know this commerce environment that we live in is changing constantly. How are you feeling about the future of our industry, of the work that we do, how it's gonna change?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Man, that that is there's a lot to unpack in that because there's so many different aspects. There's aspects that I'm excited about, and there are aspects that I'm fearful about.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

And, you know, I was when when in November 2022, when Sam Altman announced Chai GPT, I was all on board.

unknown 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

From that from the from the first I said, you know, literally take my money, literally take my money.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Because it was for me, how I saw saw AI at that point, it was actually an opportunity for me to elongate my career.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

The things that I really wanted to do but couldn't do because I didn't have the time, it it freed that up, right? And and so I've always been about we carry too much information in our heads, and we and we have so much in our in our minds. And you know, working in this business, in the business of retail media, media in general, advertising, wherever you fit into the into this industry, it's a lot of pressure, it's a lot of work. And so sometimes the fun things are hard to come by and it's hard to get to because of all the things you have to do. And I really saw AI as an opportunity to potentially unlock some of those things that you you know you really wanted to do. To be honest, this podcast, this podcast is 50% of AI, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

An efficiency driver. It's all your brain. It's just my brain.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah. I've I've created this podcast with AI. I don't know if I would have jumped into trying to create a podcast without AI, to be quite honest. Yeah. It keeps it keeps me organized. It keeps me uh thinking about new ideas and and and working through some of the things that you need to do in order to do a podcast. Um so it's really kind of opened up a lot of the things for for me. And so that gives me a lot of resolve around what I want to continue to do in my career. But at the same time, as we look at at some of the you know, opportunities uh with technology, with retail media, I am concerned about some of the things that I am currently seeing around you know AI doing too much of the work. You know, I I get it, right? Media efficiency. Everybody wants media efficiency. Yep. Everybody wants to prove out that that dollar that they spent had some sort of return. Right. But man, I don't know if I'm, you know, in it if there's anybody from Meta listening to this podcast, bless you. But I don't know if I'm just gonna give a stack of money to Meta and say, hey, go spend this the best way you think it will work for my brand. I I I don't know if I'm gonna do that. I don't know if I and I work in AI every day. This is the whole black box mindset, and yes, it makes it easier for the person who is running the media, but I don't know if making it easier is really the right thing to do. Yeah. And so I think this misapplication in some cases of AI can cause us to weaken what we're trying to do from a media standpoint. It's what it can weaken our ability to think strategically or think through how we should approach a problem because it takes away friction.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

And I think friction is absolutely a way for us to learn and grow our minds.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Right. Because if things are too easy, then what involvement do we have in what we're trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_02 11:43

There has to be the human element to drive the you got the efficiency, but you need the intelligence behind it and the challenge, and the challenge always comes from people. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah. I mean, look, you and I have been through the trenches, right? We've been through some challenging times. Like, no doubt about that, right? Absolutely. I've e even outside of our relationships, I've been through some challenging times. Um, so I don't want to make it sound like only I have the challenge. I have the challenge.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I have the challenge.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

But but like those times that were super challenging to me are the times where I probably learned the most.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

But if it was easy, would I have learned the same lessons? Would I have learned, you know, learned what I needed to learn in order to be a better marketer? I don't, I don't know. And so this is this is the thing I am currently debating, right? Whether or not application of AI in all instances is really the right thing, even if uh it can do what you need it to do. And there's a lot that goes into that as well. But even if it can do what you needed to do, is it really the right thing? Because does that degrade what a human being should be able to do and to develop them and grow them through the challenges, yeah, through that friction.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

You need the challenges.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Just because we can, should we? I guess is the question.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Right.

Why Conversations Beat Hot Takes

SPEAKER_02 13:12

All right. That was a deep question for you. So back to the serious stuff. I think this is my last one in this first section. So you almost made it through. Um, you've had a lot of great conversations on the podcast so far. Some of them I think mine was particularly good, but it was very good.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yes. I did enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Hopefully this one ends up just as well. But um, you've had a lot of great conversations with a lot of great guests. Are there any that stick out in your mind? Any moments or conversations that really got to the core of why you started doing this?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, that that's that's a great question. Um, when I started this podcast, my intent around this podcast was about having conversations. I I really feel like the value of sitting and having an informal conversation about the industry, about what's happening is so much more valuable than just reading a blog post. Right. Right. Because the exchange of ideas really helps you like solidify some of your own points of view. It helps you solidify your own strategy, just the ability to hear what somebody else is saying.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

So I've been very intentional with the people I've brought on to this podcast. And when I book someone to be on the podcast, I already have in mind why I want them on that podcast. And I try to fit that as as well as possible. You know, I mean, even going back to episode one with Tom Bryden, I brought Tom on because, you know, in the role that he sits at Accenture, he sees a lot of what's happening within retail media across across agencies, across retailers, across, you know, it tech providers. And so wanting to have him on because he definitely has that perspective. And then we end up talking about Summer Ween and we end up talking about La Boo-Boo. And there is so it, you know, like it's the humanity, right? That's the part of this podcast that I really wanted to make sure came across is the humanity. I want to have people on that I can talk about, you know, any topic with, whatever I feel like is is fitting at the time, but have that human connection, right? Have that connection where, you know, let's let's disagree, let's, let's talk about it, let's get into the details, let's, let's get into feelings, let's get into experiences, not just like report the news. And the other side of it too is and I I really want to have people who have been in the in the trenches.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

People who have absolutely been there and felt the pain uh and the joy.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

And the joy. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

And the joy of six, you know, the pain and the joy of success in the space because you know we all have stumbling blocks in this. It's part of the journey, like you said, part of the it is absolutely part of the journey. And that and I I guess that's a great word to use here is like I want to hear about people's journeys.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

And every single person that I've had on this podcast, we've been able to share in that.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

You know, you know, whether it was, you know, Brad or whether it was just Hendricks, you know, talking about what, you know, what she had gone and gone through and some of her experiences over the last couple of years. Like we're all human beings, right? We all interact with each other and we all interact with this industry. And you know, you really you really want to hear about how people feel and think about it from a human perspective. Because I, again, as I said already, you can read a blog post, right? You can read a news article about what's happening, but how does that make you feel? Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Do you agree with that? You know, and and just thinking through all that. And I and that's that's a big part of what I why it's vibes, retail media vibes is about vibes, like what we think, yeah, how we feel. And that's what's important to me.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

A very wise mentor once told me that it's not about having the right opinion, it's about having an opinion. And I think that's really key to our industry because it's changing so fast. No one really knows all the answers. And so I agree.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

I think it's a great yeah, I agree with that person, whoever that was.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Whoever that was, whoever that could have been. Okay, all right. You made it through the opening.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Oh, we made it through the vibe check.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Are we still feeling good? Are we hopefully the questions weren't too intensive?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Double down on the dealer.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Okay, good, good.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

No, that was great. Thanks for your case.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

So far, strong, you're you're doing great, Lindsay.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Okay, good, good. I'm doing my best.

Smart Fridge Ads And The Line

SPEAKER_01 18:06

All right, so thank you, Lindsay, for taking me through the vibe check. Um, all right, but we're gonna we're gonna go into some quick hits. And there were a couple of stories that recently popped that, you know, I know Lindsay, you really wanted to talk about. And you know, one of those is the ads on smart fridges. Uh so uh Samsung recently had a pilot where they placed banner ads on their high-end, high-end, think about that, right? High-end family hub smart refrigerators. And customers had a little bit of a backlash.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

What?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

I know, I know. Um, so owners can disable these ads.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

All right, that's good. Um and but it also turns off all the other good stuff about the family hub, which is the calendar, the weather, the news. Although I don't know if if you really want to see it.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

We don't want to see the news.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

I don't know if you want to see the news, especially as you walk into your fridge. You know, one of the things, and before we get into, and this is not even related to the story technically. But man, can we find out another way to monetize without advertising without using advertising?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Something else.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Like anything, you know, when I heard AI, you know, you know, ChatGPT and you know, Gemini talked about it, but you know, running ads.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Like, does everything have to come down to ads? But anyway, all right, but going back to the to to to uh to the smart fridges, you know, where do you think this whole because uh all right, let's let's let's take a step back and think think okay, this could be useful. Yeah. It could help with product discovery. I mean you discover you know a new item that you're the right place for it though.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

I think that's the question that we have to get to is the right space to be in someone's home when they're making their dinner or you know, making their pancakes, is it the right space where they really should be intruding and recommending products? And I I mean to me the answer is clearly no, because the public response was so poor. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

And I I just think, you know, I think we're just taking advertising just a little bit too far, and maybe that was the intent. Let's see how far we can push it.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Yeah. And then we back We pushed too far. We pushed too far, I think. No. Enough so that other brands I think have actually come out and said, we will not be doing that because it was received so poorly.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

So isn't there a saying the the the kitchen is the heart of the home?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

That's it. That's true. And I think people want to have spaces that feel um secure and private. And at some point you cross the line. And whenever you do that, any brand that you're showcasing in that, in that space, in that space that feels like intrusion, all of a sudden that's not brand equity. That's the opposite. You're I'm never buying the brand that shows up on my fridge in the middle of the morning when I'm trying to make breakfast for my kids. Right. So um at some point you kind of do the inverse of what you intended, I think.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Right. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, these refrigerators are going to be on the high end.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

So very expensive refrigerators that have the, you know, I don't have a refrigerator with screen on it, do you?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Not right now. I'm hoping for one.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Well for this, maybe not.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

I mean, and I I think that's the other piece of this too, is like if there was a discount on the refrigerator provided because it's being subsidized with advertising, okay, maybe there is a value exchange that makes sense there. But if you don't tell your customers that have spent a lot of money on a refrigerator that, oh, by the way, if you didn't read the fine print in this agreement when you probably signed you. you when you were going through the setup process of your refrigerator, because all you care about is making sure that the craft ice is actually good.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

You don't really care whether or not they said they were going to advertise to you. And what are you going to do at that point? No, I am sorry. I opt out. I don't I no you you can't you can't do it.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

It's it's too much. And I think like it's a tough pill to swallow because we've been, you know, for over a decade, for decades at this point, like everything has been geared towards the next impression, making sure the brand is visible. And like what we're learning is there are spaces where you do not necessarily need to be visible or not to necessarily be visible. And I think we saw that kind of come to life here. And and they and what's so interesting is Samsung went in so hard on this belief that they didn't even build the functionality where it could be disabled without disabling core other core functions of the fridge. And so I think this sort of belief that we have to always be chasing the impression. And that's what you mentioned earlier like, can we find another way? You know, um it it's there's we're hitting that sort of end of the line where it's like there are places we may not want to be serving impressions.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Right. So yeah, yeah, for sure. And you know I I would assume that people who are buying this refrigerator are probably upper income.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Right. Right. So now you're advertising to high income families. So maybe there is maybe there is a a value in that.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

I don't know if they're finding it but you know the the you know Samsung might be they've deterred me for at least two or three more years from buying a fridge with a screen with this.

Walmart OpenAI And Agentic Shopping

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah. Yeah yeah for sure. So all right uh moving on to another story that I think we we both were very interested in is you know Walmart and open AI's shift in their kind of their partnership, right? So um they're reorganizing their agentic shopping collaboration. Uh OpenAI's native instant checkout feature reportedly did not meet expectations. What what people didn't want instant checkout in open AI in ChatGPT uh so they're adjusting their approach. I mean is this really like is this a signal that retailers don't want to give up that control of that transaction layer, that transaction information?

SPEAKER_02 24:15

It's an interesting question. And it's interesting I I thought this story was interesting for us because last time you and I spoke, we spoke about open AI and about agentich's ability to actually serve the transaction which is our customer is going to be trust trusting enough of AgenTech to actually purchase on their behalf. And I think what we're finding and you and I kind of both predicted that they would not be right. What we're finding now is that we are we're so smart. I think what we're finding as that is really the case, people are just not yet ready to hand over the reins to agentic to make the purchase and they may get there. But we're in the early days, right? And so we've got a piece of so we this transition from Walmart I think is interesting in that it is a repositioning around discovery um which is a space that agentic can play in very well. Sure. And around comparison. And I think for Walmart especially that's space that they know they can win in is when they are compared to other other products that other retailers they can win.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

And so it's it's a natural especially price is one of the key attributes, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

And if you're thinking about the economy today and what you know the majority of of shoppers are prioritizing price is going to be a big component of that. And so it's it's interesting to see that shift from them.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

If you think about the how shopping has evolved right you used well you still do go into a store like 80% of us still go into a store but you go into a store and you walk down the aisle it's like you'll what you see and what you experience is 360 degrees.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Right then shopping went to e-commerce which went to for pro we'll we'll say the laptop at first right the computer the the desktop computer right and so you took that 360 degree experience and you brought it now to whatever the size of your monitor screen is right so you've lost a lot of that extra right then you went from the desktop computer to the mobile phone right which is an even smaller experience very focused right so now you've taken what do you normally see on a desktop and you've compressed compressed it into a mobile device. Now we're taking what we have a mobile device and now we're going to a chat chat window with small images and tech like we're going the wrong way with shopping. Yeah shopping is supposed to be an immersive experience and we're taking all of that out. And granted there are categories and shopping occasions where that makes a ton of sense. Give me ideas for my kid's birthday party I'm going on vacation I want so very highly involved decision making type of shopping it can be a tool right but that is not the majority of the type of shopping most people do on a day-to-day basis. Yeah and again I go back to that's why 80% of shopping still happens in a brick and mortar store. All right all right well that was uh that was some that was some quick hitch yeah that was fun hitch that was fun all right let's head over to the the main topic we're now where you now like it hasn't been happening but now you get to ask me questions whatever you want to ask yes okay BB we are at the main event this is this is the BB in the hot seat moment.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

So hopefully we had a good warm up and you're ready to go and I've got some questions for you. So are we feeling good still are we yeah we're doing good yeah we're doing good okay let's start with something simple what does it actually take to succeed in retail media today?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Oh man that is that is tough right simple and tough at the same time it is a simple question but yeah it's it it's tough. What does it take? I mean I think I think really kind of what it takes first and foremost it takes curiosity. You cannot be a bystander uh bystander in this space and expect to be good at your job. Yeah you have to you have to be actively in involved whether you're listening to this podcast or many other podcasts you need to be listening to to other podcasts you need to be checking the trades you need to have conversations and coffees with others in the industry whether it's a a supplier partner whether it's a brand whether you've been even if you have the opportunity to talk to fellow agency you know friends like I I think it's it's really important. I also think you know it is so data driven right now almost to a really extreme state. Yeah um and I get it and we can get into that as well but I I think you you do have to be able to tell a good data story even if even if you know the data story isn't what you really want it to be you've you've got to be able to you know take data and not just use data and information and metrics and KPIs just for something to fill into a PowerPoint slide and the end of campaign recap. But you have to be able to really assess what the numbers what what the numbers mean. I also think using AI effectively is is a big is a big part of what you need to do to be effective in in this business now. You know there's there's a lot of tools that are that are out there that you can you lean into to help you do that. But I think you do have to be a strong practitioner of of AI and know what AI does well and know what AI doesn't do uh doesn't do well. And then I would also say make sure you understand the fundamentals you understand the fundamentals. If you're a digital marketer don't forget about in-store if you're in-store marketer don't forget about digital right don't don't and don't forget about traditional you know I had I had uh Sarah Gilmer on the show uh previously and we talked about you know traditional media it still plays a role it state can play a role right it's not going to be probably the the primary thing that you go and do but it can work in some in some cases. So I I I do think all of those things you have to you have you do but it starts with curiosity you have to be involved in the space you have to you know think critically about the things that you see and you read and you hear and come up with your your own thoughts and and ideas.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Right. And it's a lot of input the data piece of it and telling not just a story you want to tell but the the actual story that you're saying. Using AI using all the pieces in store digital agentic AI um so what are we let me can I add one more thing yeah yeah go for it.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

I also think building relationships is really important in this in this industry as well and that that is relationships with your peers it is relationships with your clients because I mean honestly where I've seen the most success is where you know brands and agencies and or suppliers are working side by side with the same goal in mind and have you know transparency, have open dialogue in in being that shoulder to shoulder type of relationship versus a top down relationship you know one is using their leverage in order to force something it you know when you can balance that out and there's always going to be some sort of dynamic yeah but I do think but ultimately you know I hate cliches I hate business cliches but they are there for you know for a lot of reasons and they exist for for a lot of reasons. Relationships do drive this business. Yeah absolutely you could have the best technology in the world but if you have a crappy relationship in the community in the supplier community nobody's gonna want to work with you.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

So true and you and you and that doesn't mean you're not authentic I mean be please be be authentic be your authentic self but you've got to have good relationships. You've got to be a good human being uh and you've got you've got to be there for people yeah and and work through work through challenging challenging situations.

Measurement Obsession And Creative Risk

SPEAKER_02 32:54

I think a lot of people take all of these inputs and they have the data and they have the you know the different pieces um they're considering all the different inputs from in-store digital they have ai but they forget about the people element and there's a lot of people kind of driving full force ahead without thinking about how relationships really impact your ability to move things forward and that has always been true and I think still remains true to this day. So absolutely so speaking of inputs we mentioned quite a few here.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah um what do you think we're overcomplicating right now that should be simpler measurement yeah uh I I mean I know I know measurement is so important right and I and I am not discrediting the value of measurement. Yeah and to be honest how things are measured and what those outcomes are and how they're predicted will determine your budgets. So I I am I am not discrediting measurement but I do think that we are working so hard at finding the perfect measurement to prove that what we did was successful that we are losing track of what it takes to do a great marketing campaign. Yeah yeah and I and I think that's the part of why I got into this business in the first place is the art and the science and I think we're leaning so far on the science and I understand why that is so I I'm not I'm not you know going into this blind but man sometimes a really smart insightful well created campaign is going to perform really well no matter how much you how much data measurement previous you know previous KPIs and benchmarks have have influenced yeah sometimes you just have a great insight and you just have a great campaign and the creative is good and the and and it works out well and it works across all the all the channels.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

So I've seen some of the best campaigns emerge just from like kismet like it just comes together nothing should have worked but it came together and it lightning and bottle moment and everybody goes oh how do I replicate that but you you can't because it's in that moment in time when people needed it in the way that they needed it.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah and that's I think that's the other thing too is like if we get to this point where we're trying to turn marketing and advertising into a formula right A plus B will always equal C. Yeah and the reality is the variability between those those those variables A and B are so immense that it won't always equal C.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

But yet we think that it will be and we think if we have enough data it will prove out to be or if it's the right metric it will prove out to be you know what just do a really darn good marketing campaign come up with an amazing idea and I bet all the KPIs will be blown away.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Right. But the the people who keep track of the dollars that's a hard they want to see a number hard thing to convince is this a 10x ROI is this a 5x ROI what is my return is this incremental okay so for so for the realist for the realists in the room what can we stop doing right now that we have been doing for too long or that doesn't work what's like there's one thing you could just tell them right now it's just stop doing it. What would it be?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Stop thinking that this is all about a formula I mean honestly yeah like I think trying to narrow a what is a essentially a creative endeavor endeavor yeah and make it so scientific yeah and again I'm not saying that those the the science doesn't apply it absolutely applies it's a it's an important part and it should be part of the equation man has become the dominant part of the conversation now and and you know and I get it like the the the marketing directors of a specific brand and when they're going to go get money yeah they're only gonna get money if they can prove out that it works right and so that's uh I I get the the difficulty.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

It reminds me a weird way of the um Wendy's social media example from years ago where they they decided to just go absolutely personable and start roasting people on their social channel. And at the time you know it was like the most terrible idea from a brand safety perspective but it worked.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

And now every brand on social media has its own distinct voice and is roasting each other and all kinds of things. And it wouldn't have happened if someone just didn't take a risk.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

And so we've got to take risks in our interest yeah I I love that idea you know I take a risk. Yeah yeah absolutely take a risk don't worry about whether or not it's going to work right you know they'll they'll make that the primary and the exclusive KPI. Exactly exactly I you know I've worked on a lot of campaigns with a lot of brands and those brands wanted to do tests and learns. Yeah but you know the learn part was learn that you made it work.

Practical AI Use And Team Design

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Right part. Okay let's shift gears for a minute because I want to talk to you about AI because that's your your realm and I'm gonna be really really real with it with you for a second B V AI for a lot of us goes right over the head. We are we are lost we are we are struggling we're trying to figure out what to do next. So can you start out by just telling us what are you using AI to try to solve for right now?

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Like personally or within the I want to hear I want to hear the professional answer what we should be using it for and also how you're using it day to day so with AI there is a lot of use cases for for AI and you know first I always tell everyone AI is not a magic button right it's not going to solve all of your problems. And to be honest like there is misapplication of AI in in so many in so many different ways um I know and I spoke very highly of AI early on in the conversation about how it's unlocked some things for me. Yeah I personally use AI quite a bit for ideation. I use AI quite a bit for you know writing um and I you know I use AI quite a bit for for planning and and I also you know use it you know for some visuals and some things like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

So on the topic of AI, I think it you know the elephant in the room right is there's a lot of fear around AI and how it's being leveraged. You know, I think we've all seen both the benefits and some of the stories that have been coming out about the use of AI and you know whole organizations kind of flipping their their structure where do you see um AI impacting the way teams are built going forward and how will that potentially change our workflows in the future?

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah. So first I will say companies that went ahead and just said we're gonna cut a bunch of people because of AI made a huge mistake or they were taking advantage of the hype around AI. Right. So let's just put that on the table this the term I I used just a few minutes ago I think is the term that I will continue to use for a while and it's about orchestration. I think having a human being orchestrating various AI tools in order to achieve an a specific outcome, you know, deliverable or or you know media outcome or whatever is the future a hundred percent. How that gets implemented will vary based upon organization and what level of AI they want to ingest into their company. Right. I've been in organizations where there's there are a few tools that you can use but those tools have so many restrictions on them that you really don't get the outcome that you really could. And so what you end up doing is going to another platform outside of your company's organization which is not thing. Right. It's that's not a good idea I would call that a career limiting move. Okay. Right and so I I I would not necessarily advocate for that but it it does drive some of the the the challenges right you can't expect one LLM one tool to solve all of your AI opportunities I have been in this space long enough now that I know that there are different platforms that do better for different things and you know we've been asked specifically hey we are using this LLM can you modify your platform to work with this LLM no I mean well because it the the challenge with that is because it that LLM isn't customized or optimized for what we're trying to do especially creatively right we do have a very modular platform so we can always switch out whatever models we want to use at any time it's that's it's not that but why would you want me to swap out what we're using today for copilot when copilot can't generate the content that you're really wanting to use from us. And so it it you know so you have to really keep in mind just it's an old saying right the right tool for the job.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

And I don't think you can really truly solve all of your challenges by signing one agreement with one LLM for your entire workforce. And so I think you have to be choiceful. I think if you're a company regardless if you're an agency a brand a tech company a retailer you have to be choiceful. Where do you really want AI to show up? Where can AI be the most of the most benefit and so I think you know you have to have a clear view of how your company works. Right. That's the scary part for a lot of companies right um really truly understanding what it what what your company does and how it does what it does is kind of it is a scary proposition. And then figure out where can AI really help. And I would not AI wash AI throughout your entire company. I would be strategic about where it's used, how it's used, and but I would also support you know the company to ensure that there are the right types of training, the right types of workshops, you know, doing hackathons, all the things that really give people a practical opportunity to engage with AI in in the way that the business wants people to use AI.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Do you think that we kind of leading off of that topic, do you think that we're in any spaces overestimating the trajectory of AI and its ability to sort of automate our entire lives? Is there a sp are there spaces where maybe we're overestimating or misevaluating the use case for AI and how it should be implemented?

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Aaron Ross Powell 100%. Yeah. I mean I think the I think AI is a little bit overhyped and I'm a c and I work at a company that uses AI every day. I do think it is overhyped. I think we're trying to place it everywhere because we don't really understand it well enough to really know what it's good at and what it's not good at. So I think there's a little bit that's natural, right? I think, you know, with all the hype that has um been permeated throughout you know throughout the media I think there's all of this pressure that you have to say AI, you have to put it everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

But I think that there's you know there's definitely going to be um some learnings that are going to take place where maybe it wasn't so so such a good idea to put AI there. And it still comes back and you said this earlier it's not if you could it's if you should.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

You know there's a lot of places you probably can put AI but really should you put AI.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Because and it goes back again goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Like you need a little bit of people figuring out how to solve problems before you start to let the robot go and solve those problems for you. You need the friction there. And that's how people are going to develop and and grow. So it you know it it's it's still going to be a learning process, an experimentation process, but you have to be clear on what outcomes you're expecting and when those outcomes are are achieved you celebrate it and you try to replicate it. When those outcomes are not then you reevaluate and determine is this something that we want to continue to to do or should we uh do it in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Yeah. It's kind of like when we um we talked about this a little bit last time when we're setting up a media campaign and you know the brand comes back to us and their KPI is everything. It's like they want the sales but they also want the impressions and the views. They want to drive brand engagement. It's like you kind of have to hone your strategy around your intent.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Right. Well and and and the thing is oh well AI will figure all that out right it's like I don't have a thing anymore. Exactly.

Legacy Humanity And The Long Game

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Which sometimes would be nice. All right. So let's get a little bit into the human layer. This is the part I've been looking forward to because I want to get to the core of who BB is as a person. Me too we're all figuring it out together.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Figuring it out.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

All right so I'm going to ask you some maybe some maybe some tougher questions maybe just a little bit more um thoughtful like internalized questions for you now. So okay I want you to tell me is there anything recently that you have changed your mind about changed my mind.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

I would say I mean I think going back to just even just AI I mean I think you know my opinion and and thoughts on AI have evolved.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

And so you know I am still bullish on on AI for sure but I think my perspective on AI now is more is a helper technology not a do it all for you technology. And so that that has definitely become a modification for me. You know I would say that you know I think retail media overall I would say you know it's not such a niche it's been it's been brought to the market as kind of a a niche media when the reality is it's it's not. And so I used to really think a lot about it from just only from a retailer lens.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

And so you know my you know with the evolve the evolution of retail media I would say that you know now I really think of it as definitely omnichannel but even some above the line and and below the line.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Well the connectivity now of everything on you know from the reporting analytics to the different tactic types. You know we were talking about a little bit before this about the YouTube integration with Kroger like we we are seeing all the pieces kind of start to merge together. Yeah. And we're seeing it become this one bigger picture where it was niche in the past. So yeah for sure interesting um okay if I had to ask you what you're chasing right now what would you say?

SPEAKER_01 49:25

What am I chasing? I am chasing bringing value to whatever I am involved in whether it be the organization I work for whether it be this podcast whether it be you know uh other engagements that I'm involved in like for me you know what's important to me and what I learned is I want to feel like I'm bringing value to that engagement. And it's always become a a big a big part of a big part of me that I think um I may not have faced head on. Yeah and you know just well I'm just doing this because I you know I like to do it. But I think for me at this at this stage I'm really thinking about how do I you know how do I add value and then what is and I I'm actually not I'm not quite there yet but I am starting to think about okay what is my legacy? Yeah what if what am I when I get done with whatever I'm doing when I look back what did I really accomplish right is really kind of what I'm have you started to crack the code on that yet?

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Have you got an idea? Is it coming into frame for you yet?

SPEAKER_01 50:46

No, I think I think for me, you know I I would say really connecting with human beings like you know really bringing you know I guess value to the conversations and the and the relationships you know that I that I have you know I I had a realization oh I guess a couple years ago now maybe 18 months ago but all the relationships and and and people that I am close to that are not my family all came through work.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

True for a lot of us yeah and I mean I grew up as a military brat I was in the military myself you know I traveled around a lot I'm a you know a a transplant here into the northwest Arkansas Northwest Arkansas area.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

And so like everybody I know is because of work and how much how how how important uh you know that those work relationships have been for me and you know being able to you know work with people and and and support them and work alongside them how much of that has really been an important you know an important part for me.

unknown 51:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

I think it's amazing we're all kind of at two ends of the spectrum right now and then we see like AI automating everything. At the same time I think we're craving more humanity.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yeah I feel that pull because it's sort of the the counterweight to the automation isn't it yeah um does the struggle feel worth it right now do we feel like the struggle is worth the opportunity yeah I I think I I mean I do I I do I think you know um you know I value all the relationships with all the people that I that I have uh I am so much I am a lot better person because of the people I know and uh people who uh I care about and the people who care about me. Uh and I think you know that is you know um that is fulfilling in in a lot in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Um and so yeah I think you know overall I I do.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Yeah. It's funny probably 10 years from now all the things we're talking about will be you know regarding the work and the industry will be irrelevant because we'll have moved on to the next big thing. But the people connection always remains and I think that's like the one piece that just stays put and it's always there.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

It's solid it's got a foundation to convene yeah what's what's interesting for me is you know reflecting back on my career. Like I've been there for every single one of these big you've seen them all I've seen the metaverse. I've seen the internet yeah you know the internet grow. Yeah I've seen you know and actually I was on the I was on the cusp of mobile technology with Nokia and worked with Nokia. That's right and you know got into you know got into you know mobile marketing yeah uh definitely have seen the growth of of social media and what impact that has had you know from a society and an advertising perspective. I've you know obviously seen the the growth of of retail I've seen you know yeah what the metaverse was supposed to be uh and then you know now it's AI right so I I have lived through all of these all the phases all of these phases um that impact our industry so much and I I feel fortunate to have had that opportunity I don't have to read about it in a history book I can I can you loved it I did you loved it the highs and the lows yes the highs and the lows but the people always remain you know you may not sell that same Nokia phone anymore but you probably still know people from that time in your life call us right now.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Yes absolutely I love it all right well thanks for letting me go a little deeper into the human the human layer hopefully that wasn't too tough.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

All right we're almost at the end I usually like doing the bold vibes but I don't know if I'm how good I'm gonna do all right receiving the bold vibes.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

So for those listeners who don't know how this works I'm gonna read a few statements and I want your immediate gut response. These are quick responses, no long answers as you told me last time that's true. And I've got maybe eight or nine of them for you. So are you ready?

SPEAKER_01 54:52

All right I'm I'm ready I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Okay first one retail media as a term will disappear within five years.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Maybe not five years but soon thereafter because everything is retail media.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Okay all right most brands are investing in retail media without actually understanding it.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

I think partially yes I think I think retail teams are doing a great job of trying to inform brand teams whether or not they're understanding uh that will TBD. All right AI will reduce the need for large agency teams I agree with that for to a certain extent I think it will also depend on the nature of the relationship between the brand and the agency.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Whew that's a release for me. Dude most AI work in marketing right now is just theater.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

No I think there is some good AI work actually being done um but some of it is actually yeah some of it is probably for theater.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

A little fluff in there somewhere a little fluff you're more comfortable building than managing.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

I like building I I definitely like building um I also like managing yeah I mean every everybody who is achieved a certain level of leadership has been a manager. Yeah there are great days being a manager and there are not so great days.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

And it's back and forth a little bit for you.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

And when you're and when you build there are good days and there are bad days. So I I do I would say that you know building yes managing also a yes but probably building is a little bit a little bit more engaging a little bit more fun sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Okay. You've taken more risks in the last two years than the previous 10.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Wow I mean I I've I've taken risk more risks I would say I have taken yeah I would say that I've taken more risks in 10 years than I have in the last two.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Okay. All right a little bit of a scary one you're building things that could eventually replace parts of your own career uh I I don't want to say replace I want to say amplify. I like that better.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

That's that's or augment okay is another A word.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

That's that's a better better one I think. All right the most important work you'll do hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

I have to believe that. Yeah that's what gets me up in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

It's a motivator.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

It is yeah I have a saying peak when you're dead right that's where the tracker comes in with all the the days left. So like I am continuing to try to get better yeah improve and I'm gonna keep doing that until I can.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

Boy but that means that last day is going to be like a real peak. It's gonna be like the best day ever.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Yeah we'll we'll see about that.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

All right at the end of the day connection matters more than output.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

100% I've that's always been that's always been how I've worked I've always I mean I've celebrated output right so when you when you accomplish success together as a team yeah that's obviously great output but it's the relationships that you've built to get there that means more to me.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

The connection creates the output more than we more than we realize. Yeah all right that's it that's the bulls did I make it you made it you made it through I hope this wasn't too painful for you hopefully a fun experience.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

It was awesome I hope I brought some value.

Plugs And How To Support

SPEAKER_02 58:25

I hope I filled the big shoes over here being a temporary host. So Lindsay before we go is there anything that you want to want to plug so I want to shout out the great coworkers bosses and um direct reports that I get to spend every day with.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

That's awesome. Yeah it's that's great. All right well if you've enjoyed this episode please give the show a like share it with a coworker comment um and you know just uh help us express the word of this show. If you want to find all of the episodes of Retail Media Vibes you can go to retailmediavibes.com. If you have some comments or maybe you want to sponsor the show in the future you can hit me up at retailmediavibes at gmail.com and thanks for listening and as always I promise to do better next time BV out.