Ep. 18 - Retail Media Talent: Why the Pipeline is Breaking

Wes participated in this conversation in a personal capacity. All views are his own.

The retail media industry is moving at a breakneck pace, but while the technology scales, the talent pipeline is hitting a massive bottleneck. We are operating in an environment where expectations for perfection are higher than ever, yet there is no "Retail Media School" to prepare the next generation of leaders. If we don’t figure out how to bridge the gap between entry-level tasks and high-level strategy, we risk a total collapse of upward mobility in the modern workforce.

In this episode, we sit down with Wes, a Director of Media at a retail media agency, to discuss the "softer side" of the industry. We get into his unique "side door" entry into the field from a 15-year career in professional photography and how systematic mindsets translate across disciplines. We explore the rise of "Walmazon" as Walmart and Amazon begin to mirror one another’s strategies, the tactical necessity of clear summarization over AI-generated "novels," and the high-stakes reality of managed service vs. self-serve social tools. Wes shares his unique philosophy on why managers must find their own replacements to move up and the "aha" moment that led him to prioritize humility over individual wins.

The unglamorous truth is that AI might be able to handle menial tasks, but it cannot replace the "boots-on-the-ground" experience of walking a store floor or understanding a shopper's psychology. There is a real danger in over-relying on automation; if you turn in work without validating it, you aren't saving time, you’re devaluing your own expertise. You will walk away from this conversation with a fresh perspective on how to take initiative in your own career development and a warning about why "the way we've always done it" is already out of date.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Talent Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:13

What's up, party people? BV here, and welcome to another episode of Retail Media Vibes, a doing business in Bentonville podcast. We are recording live at Podcast Video Studios in Rogers, Arkansas. So today we have a great conversation. Talk a little bit about maybe some of the softer side of things around retail media, technology, and we're really going to dive into talent, AI, and relationships. Because as we all know, retail media has been on a very fast trajectory over the last few years. Expectations are super, super high. The work is becoming more and more complex. A lot of the tactics that we do in retail media is continuing to expand. But we need great talent that can manage not only the breadth, but also the depth of retail media. And unfortunately, there is no retail media school. If you're interested in starting a retail media school, give me a call. I'd be happy to talk to you about starting one. But there is no specific career uh preparation course specifically for retail media. Welcome, Wes, to the show. It's great to have you here. Thanks. It's great to be here. So, you know, let's start off with the quick version of your story and where you, you know, what you do and you know how you describe the things that you uh are passionate about and responsible for.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Uh so yeah, I am uh a director of media at a retail media agency. Um we're overseeing a CPG brand uh that sells worldwide. Um I am across multiple retailers, so we're we're seeing uh all kinds of different retail media network uh configurations and uh challenges. Um it's a it's a really exciting time to be in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Um yeah, so it's interesting because to be honest, I've never had exposure to anything outside of North America, mostly the United States, to be uh to be honest. So what is like one difference when you're working with a retail media network outside of the United States? What is one difference you you've seen in in in the work and and how it runs?

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Uh the the difference would be, I think coming down to kind of the expectations of the shopper. Uh shoppers in Europe behave a little bit differently than shoppers in the US. They're not as uh consumption driven, I would say. Okay. Um which more and more and more in the US, right? Just more and more and more. Exactly. We're we're all about stuff and uh and we're gonna sell them stuff. Um, but yeah, it's it that's one of those little little nuances.

Icebreakers: ER And Weed Eaters

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, it is so so interesting, you know. Yeah, because you know, shopper psychology behaviors obviously have to be different, um, you know, different incomes, you know, different uh cost levels for products, you know, the brands that you use, uh, that those those individuals use is going to be quite a bit different. So I can imagine it's a very steep learning curve. Uh, while some of the principles probably stay, some of the nuances is where you have to spend a lot more time. Absolutely. Cool. Um, so let's let's do a couple, you know, a couple little icebreaker questions. So so what's something you've been watching, reading, or listening to lately that you would actually recommend to me or the listeners or both?

SPEAKER_03 3:37

So I actually just started ER all over again. I'm talking about series ER, like series ER. And you know, everybody's been watching The Pit right now. And uh the the main character of the show was also in a show called ER about 25 years ago. Yep. Uh his prime time lineup Thursday night. And I thought I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go watch an episode of that. And now I'm hooked. Okay. I'm in, I'm on like season three. Awesome. Uh a ran for I think like nine years, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Is that the kind of genre of programming you typically like? Is yeah, is like the drama, like high intensity.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Absolutely. Like, you know, it's kind of that high-minded dialogue of fast-paced action, yeah, you know, rooted in in something that that's based in reality. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah, for me, I love competition reality. So I just there's so many. If you make it a competition reality show, I will probably watch it. We love the traders, we obviously love Survivor, um, you know, Amazing Race. So there's so many great competition reality shows. Um, I don't like just regular reality shows, I like the ones that actually have a competition to them and you know, and trying to get to the final winner actually. It's an added layer of a yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like that. Maybe it's the competitive spirit I have inside of me. I maybe. All right. One other icebreaker question. What is the last thing you bought you absolutely did not need, but you don't regret buying it?

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Okay. That's that's an easy one. So the last thing I bought that I don't need is uh is a battery-powered weed eater. It's a dewalt battery-powered weed eater, and it's not just like the 20-volt one, this is a 60-volt. Ah, nice, very nice. It's got a little umph, you know, it's 17, so 16 or 17-inch diameter, uh cutting radius. Um, it's uh it's definitely something I don't need. I have a perfectly good gas-powered one, but it was on sale. I've got the Dewall battery packs, and I mean that's just that's just how they get you.

Walmart Connect Brings Social Self-Serve

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah, so I've converted all to electric except for my rider, my rider mower. All right, well, we got the vibes going. So now let's chat about uh some stories that I'm paying attention to. So we're gonna get into the quick hits portion of the podcast. So, first story we have uh this this time is Walmart expands their social media capability. So Walmart is leaning further into social as part of their retail media ecosystem. Uh, and so Walmart has offered you social media advertising as part of a managed service offering that they've had for so long. But this feels like this is a much bigger, uh, a bigger change. They're bringing in self-serve tools, so making that available to to um brand all brands to do that through self-serve, different shoppable formats, which, you know, I think that also has an impact to the the conversion funnel, if you will, the media funnel. And then also closed loop measurement. What you know, we we have to talk about measurement in almost every podcast. So, you know, here's our closed loop measurement discussion, right? And so that's an important part of that to show the value of that media that's that's been run. So it's just it just seems like it's really trying to make it easier for you know brands of all sizes, right? Not just the big ones that have managed service budgets and so forth to run social. So it's really very exciting, I think, you know, if you kind of look at the the long-term opportunity. Um and so, you know, as we as we look at how this is shaping up with you know, the still self-serve, shoppable formats, closed loop, you know, now you're reaching a kind of a different audience, right, in a different way. So if you're working with you know Walmart Connect previously, and maybe you're doing display, maybe you're doing some DSP, but now you're working directly with them to to do social, or you're doing that through through self-serve. Feels like a great opportunity to to reach an audience uh in a in a more in a broader way as well. So, you know, why do you think WMC Walmart Connect is is offering this service to to its its brands?

SPEAKER_03 7:44

I think it's it's the perfect solution for some of those uh insurgent brands and maybe small medium-sized companies that maybe don't have the budget for a home page lockout every other weekend, or they they don't have the budget for a category takeover on site. Um these these are insurgent brands that have decided that the potential for user commentary being going negative uh is outweighed by the access. And that that access of uh reaching new customers, reaching uh new potential loyalists, uh is is much better um in the long run than perhaps subjecting themselves to bad commentary. Because anytime we talk about social media, uh unless it is a uh unless it is a um owned social media account, uh, you really cannot a hundred percent effectively control the comments section. Yeah, it's tough. So that could go sideways so easily. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Um, so there's a little bit of brand risk when you when you get involved with that. Absolutely. But the reward is exposure to where people are spending a lot of their time and attention, right? So you know, we we operate very much, just like other media, in an attention economy, right? And so there's only so much time and that's being spent. And you know, you want to be where your shoppers are, and obviously it's going to depend on brand and and product fit for social. Uh, and so what do you what do you think Walmart really adds to the equation? Because, you know, I could go and you know set up an uh a Facebook ad account, a meta ad account, and I could run ads tomorrow for anything I've really wanted to to advertise, you know, my my brand. What what value do you think Walmart really brings to the equation here?

SPEAKER_03 9:40

It's the value that they bring to every other seller. It's scalability. Yeah. So they can take something that uh if you're a challenger brand or if if you're exploring social as a new avenue um uh on the attention market, uh it can it can scale new products just as easily as it can scale a whole new brand. Right. Um that that's what Walmart can can deliver. Um what they're seeing is that they need a way to uh bring that scalability uh not just within their own product stack, but out in the real world, leveraging that that first audience data and and their and their logistics machines.

Amazon Tests AI-Powered Superstores

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah, yeah. There's you know, you're really filling in the funnel across the entire ecosystem, right? From discovery all the way down through the conversion and leveraging, you know, the data that that Walmart has instead of trying to offboard that data from Walmart into a uh into a clean room and then trying to reuse that. Plus, I think, you know, with DSP, DSP definitely has some strengths, right? So there's a lot of different programmatic formats to to reach your audience, and obviously the World Wide Web is huge, right? So there's a lot of places to reach. But it does seem like you know, when you go down the road of social, it is it feels a little bit more targeted to a great extent. And obviously people are continuing to spend a lot of time there. So it's it's a I think it's a great move from from Walmart to offer that, especially in the self-serve uh opportunity as well. And it'll be really interesting to see how brands expand their their opportunities through that through that platform. So great. All right, we're gonna move on to our next story. So let's talk a little bit about Amazon. So Amazon talk about Amazon. We well, you know, it's hard not to talk about Walmart without talking about Amazon. So, you know, uh, I do give equal time uh as much as I possibly can. So Amazon is is sh working on their super store, and they're really trying to uh bring in AI to really help with the operations of that store. So they are reportedly working on a new concept internally called Project Kobe, and the idea is really taking large format physical stores and have them powered by AI. Um, and of course, they're trying to compete with Walmart. So I I have so I'll I'll let everybody in on I have a secret talent. So I have a secret talent of combining words and coming up with new words. So I'm gonna do that here. Okay. All right. So when it so I in my mind, Walmart is trying to become Amazon. Amazon is now trying to become Walmart or has been trying to become Walmart, right? So we've got these two, it's almost like the Spider-Man meme where they're both pointing at each other, right? It's it that's that's Amazon and Walmart. So I I put before you a new new word called Walmazon, which is the combination of those two retailers as a single retailer, because almost everything applies to both of them. And of course, the way they execute that will be a little bit different based upon their their uh their ideas and how they execute. So anyway, so we're gonna talk a little Walmazon, right? So Walmart Amazon is trying to be calling Walmart, um, and they're using using AI. So, you know, one of the things about AI that is a huge been a huge promise of AI is personalization. So I think you know, this whole idea of having a having a physical store, because I think we we expect that when we go to a website now or go to a shopping app, there is a level of personalization that exists. Whether it's recommending things that you've purchased in the past or things that you want to discover, right? There's there's all of that. Now, when you go to the store, what does that look like? Right. So do we think that AI in this case can really personalize that shopping experience? And how might that happen?

SPEAKER_03 13:35

You know, Walmazong is gonna be stuck in my head. Walmazon, yes, and uh that's good that's gonna take some time to shake off. Uh that that's welcome to Walmazon. That was pretty good. That was pretty good. Um You know, I when I think about this Walmazon store, in my mind, I'm walking up to the world's biggest vending machine. It's you know, and we can talk about how AI it's it's driving uh, you know, like personalization and all of that stuff. You walk into the store and it maybe does facial recognition on you, and or you've been there before and you've registered and it has this this sort of first party data about you, and it can say hi Wes as you walk in. Um it already knows that you come here for milk, eggs, spread, etc. Uh, and Dewall weed eaters. And so it suggests a Dewall weed eater to me every time I walk in. That's that's what I'm picturing might happen here. If I've if I've got AI running this.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Well, you already have the weed eater, so hopefully it knows enough to recommend the blower. Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

The accessories, the attachments, the the uh additional batteries that I'll need for for my entire collection of Dewalt 60 volt products. Um, and absolutely, and I'll probably be at that store every week. Yeah. Um, I am uh unapologetically antisocial when it comes to shopping in particular. Um, I I am you know not keen on walking through the aisles and navigating with a giant cart and everything. The the idea of walking up to a big counter and 75% of my basket is already full and it's waiting on me. And maybe there's a kiosk in front of me that that's asking if I've forgotten anything.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

With all my you know suggested items that work so well. That's what I picture uh on a on a Walmazon store. But the other part of this is that you know, it won't stop there. A Walmazon store would have delivery service just like Walmart does.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Yeah. And you know, with their with their distribution network, they could absolutely service that sort of 10 to 15 percent of households that live more than 10 miles away from a super center. Uh so I see that as being net benefit for you know for the US economy and for consumer life, if you will. Um I don't see rapid adoption necessarily. Yeah. I don't see it as being competitive to Walmart super centers. You know, the other thing is the is the the predictive benefits of it. Yeah. And you know, logistics and supply chain, all of that stuff. That that's such a a tough nut to crack for uh larger stores. Walmart has it locked down to the point where they are basically the go-to for any disaster relief.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Because they they seem to see it coming.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Um, Amazon will have to get to that level in terms of making sure that the supply chain is is absolutely locked down. I think they're good, but they probably rely a little bit too much on third-party delivery to actually execute that last mile part. Yeah. Um, but I do think it has a ton of potential.

Meta Threatens Google’s Ad Crown

Digital Twins And AI Boss Risks

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, awesome, awesome. All right, let's move on to our next uh quick hit. So two behemoths, Meta and Google, right? So in the in the tech space, there are very few that are bigger. Um so when we so meta, which is kind of this in a way, this story is a little bit mind-blowing, but Meta is on track to surpass Google in digital ad revenue for the first time. So Google has been crushing it for for years. They've been the undisputed leader. It's been you know driven by search, right? And then obviously through you know, capture of that demand through shopping. Uh now Meta is closing the gap, and the trend is potentially taking that lead. You know, a lot of it is through, you know, obviously advertising from their AI-driven targeting, um, content discovery through through Meta, right? We were just talking about the you know attention economy and people spending a lot more time on social, and then just all that, all that engagement, you know, just between attention and engagement, those are really the key signals for for advertising. So, you know, if we look at you know the moves that Meta has had uh to to you know move them into a position to uh over potentially overtake Google, and then you look at you know, kind of the overall environment of you know where Google is and some of the changes that's happened to them, we kind of feel like, yeah, maybe there is a little bit of that, you know, Google's maybe taking a little bit of a step back and and meta is is is moving forward. So I mean, do you think in this scenario or what what part of this equation you can relate to now people are changing the way they find discover products because of AI, right? So they're using AI more for what you what used to be more intent-based searches, right? Now they're going to Chat GPT or you know, they're going to Claude, you know, they're going to co-pilot to, you know, to do these searches versus you know going to Google directly. I would say like YouTube by far away, people spend a ton of time on um a ton of time. I mean, it definitely rivals streaming services in a lot of ways, overtakes them and and others, probably very competitive with Netflix or more. Anyway, I I do think there's you know, I there's still a lot to be written here on this on this story. Um, but I do think you know Google will will figure out a way to to make it competitive, we'll say. All right. So the last quick hit story, uh, this is Zuckerberg doing Zuckerberg things. So Zuck Mark Zuckerberg is reportedly building an AI version of himself, trained on his tone, mannerisms, and past communications to represent him in meetings. So it's virtual, like basically virtual virtual Zuck or AI Zuck, right? So it's kind of fun, you know, kind of kind of cool, but also a little bit of black mirror, uh scary. Uh, I've thought about doing this myself, like creating a digital twin and training it on all the things and mannerisms and stuff and seeing what it can do. Um, but it you know, it does raise questions about what if AI was the CEO of your corporation, you know, and what would that look like? Right. And so would it make decisions better? Would it not make decisions better? Um, you know, obviously it would be hard to have a relationship, maybe. I don't know. It just feels a little feels a little weird, but it feels like that's the path we're on, um, as well. So, you know, what do you what do you think are like the pros and cons of having an AI digital twin of someone that maybe is your boss, let's say, um, more so than a CEO.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

I think, first of all, uh, I would have way too much fun with that. I I would probably go sideways so fast, uh, because if I knew that I was talking to a likeness of my boss, uh, and that they would be on the receiving end of the bullet points, then I think what I would be most interested in is what kind of crazy garbage could I throw at that? Yeah. And and what would the result be? What would my boss actually receive as the key takeaways uh, you know, on the other side of that conversation? Um, I'd probably get in trouble, to be honest with you. I'd probably get my hand slapped. You'd put you'd push the envelope. I I would, you know, because um honestly, it I don't humanize uh AI. And, you know, at first I remember when I said thank you to Alexa. Um, and I think everybody probably used their their politeness, uh, their polite manners when they were talking to Alexa, uh, you know, or or their Amazon Echo, whatever they've named it. Um, we're past that. Like I I set aside the kindness and now I know that like, okay, concision and and being like really tight with my request is more sustainable environmentally, and I shouldn't waste uh computing time on niceties. So if if my boss was, you know, replacing herself with an AI avatar. Right. I I would probably just be very impersonal with that. After I got over my my initial, you know, prank phase.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Yeah. What I would say, you know, uh looking at a pro, a potential pro, right? So getting sometimes getting a hold of your boss is difficult. It's an art form maybe in itself. Maybe this AI twin of your boss could help answer some questions or at least give you some direction in some in some areas that you just may not have time to do or you don't want to bug bug them, you know, because you think it's too small or something like that. Right. So it it can, it could provide some coaching. I'm not sure how good the coaching would be. I don't know if you'll feel like it's impersonal, but just you know theoretically to me I feel like it that could could open open up some opportunity there.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Yeah, uh that's you know absolutely a good point. I when you when you were talking it made me think of uh coordinating calendar invites I would I would use the bot to be like hey are you free? Uh when's the next time you're free for a quick 15 minutes and then you know that time that type of feedback I think would be really beneficial for people who are starting out who are maybe a little bit more self-conscious about how they present themselves to their actual managers and so forth. It could be to them something like a practice round um or a way to sort of fine tune how they bring things to their leadership.

From Photographer To Retail Media

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah no it's uh it's it's really it is really interesting. So um we'll see how that plays out. All right. Well that wraps up the quick hit topics. So we're gonna slow down a little bit and we're gonna get into our main topics. Um all right so we were just talking about AI clones of leaders uh but you know I think there's still an opportunity to develop real people talent you know within retail media I know you and I have talked about that and you know good people really do make the business you know having the right people putting them in the right positions to succeed uh is absolutely 100% you know the key to success uh in a in so many different ways. So I think what where I'd like to start is you know you and I have talked a little bit and I understand you have a non-traditional background and I think many people in this space don't have a very tr we'll call it a traditional retail media background to get to where where they are. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your your non-traditional story.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Sure oh um before I was involved in in in retail media space before I did things professionally I was a photographer for about 15 years full blown full-time professional photographer I traveled all over the country um I I had a lot of fun doing it and I would have kept doing it uh except that I had landed this opportunity at at a little place called White Spider which was just in its you know larval stage at the time um when I had started there but on my journey to uh joining the team at White Spider um I spent a lot of time figuring out how to get new clients and figuring out how to market figuring out how to reach certain audiences and then what I realized is that okay if I dial things in and I I offer specialties that people will see me not as a good photographer but they'll see me as a good dog photographer or a good wedding photographer a good portrait photographer. And that that was really a long time ago my my first lesson on keyword optimization. And that's kind of like what opened the door to everything for me. Because by the time I joined White Spider I was well versed in Facebook advertising Google advertising SEO SEM and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

And that and that was through your photography business?

SPEAKER_03 26:17

That was through my photography business yeah and when I joined White Spider I was I was a you know staff photographer um on contract just before I joined them full time and it was it I characterize it as getting into this industry through the side door. I didn't approach it head on because I didn't know what it was at the time. Right. I uh I came in through the side door through some adjacent kind of uh discipline and I looked over the shoulders of the people that uh were working on these things and thought to myself I could do that. Yeah I could I could help you with that. I know a little bit about that. So would you say you have a high level of curiosity is that absolutely yeah I mean it's not just curiosity but it's I could I can be curious about something all day long but there's there's that next part where you think to yourself I bet I know how to fix that. I bet I can figure out a way to make that a little bit better a little bit faster than the way we've been doing it and and looking for ways to optimize everything all the time. Yeah um and iterate on it.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

And that's that's really that sounds like a very very much a systematic mindset in in a way right and so did you have that when you were doing photography?

SPEAKER_03 27:35

Absolutely every photographer does every single photographer does you know when they set up a scene they're clocking uh the the white balance they're clocking the exposure they're clocking the distance of their uh their main element from the subject and they're thinking about all these things all the time whether they know it or not so the next time that they're in that situation and something's a little different they adjust accordingly they're optimizing themselves just like everyone else right um absolutely there's data involved in their in their approach to everything even if they say they're a natural light photographer and they go at the moment subconsciously they are you know they're they're creating this database in their mind of what worked what what worked really well and what doesn't work at all.

Humility And Teamwork Under Pressure

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yeah. So you know I know the story of White Spider a little bit you know I I know Eric Howerton really well he's one of the co-founders of the company I'm at today adfury.ai and you know Eric and I used to talk a lot about you know White Spider in those white spider days and you know one of the things I appreciated about Eric was he was willing to give so many people a chance he wasn't looking for that perfect experience he looked for people who were hungry who really wanted to dig in and would do whatever it takes. And if you know Eric Howerton that's really the kind of person he is so he's looking for people who are willing to do whatever it takes to to win. And that's that's ultimately it and I and I I've always admired uh his approach to just taking people who may not be related to the industry that he's working in and building them up. And I think you could probably think of a few people in beside yourself absolutely that white spider that that was done with on continual a a continual basis. So besides that like there's obviously that new that desire to win and and and dig in what are like what are some of the traits that we need for talent in this industry in this business?

SPEAKER_03 29:48

I think humility is a big one you know we get things wrong every day and it sucks when you when you propose something and you think you've nailed it and you bring it to your leadership or you bring it to your team and they pick it apart and they say no that's not going to work because of XYZ that can hurt. How do you develop humility though? That's a that's a that's a tough one you do it over and over again you do it over and over again and you stop thinking as an individual who's winning this one thing and getting this one thing through as a person and think of it as like I'm doing this for my team and when somebody brings something to me and I help them get better that's my win too yeah so Eric was good at doing that.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

I think so it it's so fascinating too because I think that's even that's driven because of the expectations around this industry. And you know when I got into you know shopper marketing digital ultimately e-commerce retail media etc I was it was impressed on me you don't miss you can't miss especially if you're on the agency side right yeah and then if you're a brand you can't miss in front of Walmart right there's no misses and so the the expectation of perfection no grace is such a hard thing to to deal with and when you have that and you're bringing in somebody fresh off the street or fresh out of school or you know wherever you you happen to to find them to fill a a position you know how do you you know it just seems hard to build that expectation that you don't notice it is.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

I mean if we think about it uh young people their their last reference for success is is probably their grade that they got in school. Yeah and you know a passing grade is 90% or or passing grade is 60% in some places. So you you could pass and your work could be deemed acceptable as you get 60% of it correct. That's absolutely not the case in the professional environment in professional environment it's a hundred percent so you can't do that on your own every single time it takes a team to get it to a hundred percent.

Onboarding Gaps And Sandbox Training

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah and I I think a lot of what we're talking about too you know as we think about people coming into this industry we talk about we think about potential I think you know as as m I've been uh obviously a hiring manager and you know not all the boxes are checked so many times when a resume comes across your desk sometimes it does which is great but maybe they're not a great people fit maybe you got a great people person but maybe you know eight out of the ten boxes are checked and there's a couple so you know you're looking at you know the right balance and every manager has to do that every hiring manager absolutely has to do that. So how much how important when you bring these individuals in is the onboarding process because sometimes I think there are there are some companies who have a long onboarding process that take you through a lot of things there are some that just throw you into the deep end and see if you can swim. Obviously there's some in between but like where where do you feel like training development onboarding all of these things that relate to getting someone at the skill level that you need how where do how does that play?

SPEAKER_03 33:21

I think it's it's kind of a shared responsibility these days you know if we look back to I I don't want to I don't like pre-internet let's just say pre-internet on the job training was the dark ages yeah the dark ages like the the yester year uh the wonder years if you walked into a company and it was your first day then orientation started that day you were in the mailroom and you really started at the bottom and worked your way up um you know if you had a degree and you had other credentials and maybe you had an apprenticeship or an internship you got to start a little higher but it was still you know you were on the job training and there was somebody holding your hand for a year before you even talk to a client. Now it's like it's it's not like that anymore. There's no patience for that there's no I mean not at all for for a lot of reasons. Yeah not too expensive. It's it's a huge cost to the company to facilitate training programs like that um especially when you know they might not be successful. Yeah and they have to be constantly updated. They've washed out uh any kind of semblance of uh an onboarding uh training period because we just can't keep up with all of the updates that we have to make to that training program as in this industry because we're we're changing things every single quarter like my job description changes before I can go to LinkedIn and and let everybody know what you see right now is already out of date. Yep um and it's probably true for most people in this industry the training's no different it just moves that fast. But there's another side to that you know companies are doing the best they can to onboard people I'm sure I'm gonna give everybody the benefit of the doubt but there is a responsibility on the the candidate side you know the applicant side to guive headfirst and to take the initiative to look around you know jump into your company's SharePoint jump into your camp your your company's Google Drive and just start poking around read stuff look for it you know start start developing a point of view and don't wait for somebody to ask you to do that. Right. Just go and find it. Yep. I think between the two things we can sort of forgive the fact that there's not really a training environment at the company level. Yeah. That does not forgive the lack of training though for the industry as a whole. I think the industry as a whole has some kind of responsibility to uh create at least a sandbox environment for people to go and train on the actual hands to keys work that gets done the actual digital environment that we're in day in and day out because until you work somewhere we never see that it's paywalled it's behind a login it's very private uh I mean people don't want to just let you into their ad account so you can look around. Yep. But we ought to have some type of a sandbox environment that is somewhat universal that allows people to go in there, use funny money and and learn about how this actually works and what the cause and effect is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

We don't have that now. Yeah it's interesting because I I think you should be able to get to that relatively easily especially with with AI right so you know you can spin up these types of tools and claude you know claud cowork cloud cook claud code that you could do some simulation of you know some retail media simulation examples right it should should not be technically that hard in which to do and maybe maybe that's maybe that's an idea that you know could be taken further. Yeah by some entrepreneur uh definitely pick that and run for sure so you know where do you think right now like where is the talent pipeline like breaking down like what is where is it like failing or maybe has some opportunity to to improve it's a good question.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

For me it's you know it's all the people in the adjacent industries and when I say adjacent I it can be any and every industry is adjacent to retail media we all buy products we all go online and purchase things through uh all of the different retailer networks so it's not like no one's ever heard of it. Um anybody could get started on doing it and what I would suggest if if this is literally day one if you have never even looked at a retail media network uh newsletter or anything like that if you were starting day one what I would do is I would I would first go and get my credentials get those academies certifications out of the way uh you don't get into the platform that way but you learn about how it works. Yeah. That would be step one consolidation. Then take your experience and get in at any level you possibly can with the experience you do have. Once you're in an organization so much easier to just scoot over until you're sitting next to the people doing the retail media work. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

You know one of the things I've always thought a lot about when it comes to yeah when it comes to training right so you you join an organization you go through onboarding you go through some initial initial training it doesn't seem like there's often that there is some retraining that happens on the stuff that you learned when you came on onboarding like so many times when you and in where I've been before we've had a very extensive onboarding plan and you go and you meet with all these individuals and go through all these presentations right and you're what a week in two weeks in whatever but man and that's fine that's great it sets that does set some foundation after that right you're in and there's nothing after that right so yeah of course you you know there's a certain mandatory training you need to take for this or that and I'm not saying there's no training but you don't ever revisit that onboarding training like there should be another onboarding training that you know maybe it's not called onboarding you know maybe it's called something else. It's like a plus up or something yeah it's like a refresher yeah hey let's go back through and you know now that you've been on the ground for you know three months six months let's go back through all the things that we went through on onboarding and it does because it might make more sense to you you know you to you now so I think there is more opportunity for training beyond just the you know the first 30, 60, 90 days that someone joins an organization. I think there's a lot more opportunity for shadowing but more intentful shadowing people just showing up and being in the same meeting that you're in isn't always like the best shadowing but really that's nap time. Yeah it could be it it definitely it definitely could be um but as we as we you know wrap up this this topic here what I'd like to hear from you is like what are the skills that we may be overvaluing in this industry right now and what are some skills that we might be undervaluing when we come when it comes to talent uh I don't know if I want to touch the overvaluing thing because there's there's so much probably happening behind the scenes for the worlds that I don't understand that I'm just gonna assume that there's a lot of value there.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Um so I I won't touch that but the undervalued I would say that the undervalued skills are are definitely the ability to write clearly and summarize clearly um if you can take what's happening around you and describe it that is the number one skill that you need in any business environment and um I'm not a hundred percent seeing that taking place uh without the support of AI. And that's I'm not saying that's necessarily right or wrong, but I think the foundational skill should exist before you use something to supplement it. Uh that's that's where I would start as like really dial in your ability to just describe what's going on to summarize things to figure out what what is the important stuff. Uh bring that to your lead I still struggle with this every day. My leadership is asking me hey what's the update on this I want to write them a novel and sometimes I do but that nobody wants to read the novel Les I'm sorry buddy. If I don't want them to pay attention to it I give them a novel and then if it's important that they see it you have to shrink it down. You have to keep it bite-sized uh because they've got a 150 other things that they're worrying about that at that exact moment. Um that's that's a skill that I would I would say is probably the most important regardless of the stage of your career.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

But if somebody identifies that in you and you're just starting out you've got potential written all over you.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Yeah.

AI Output, Accountability, Entry Roles

SPEAKER_03 42:10

I would say that'd be like the golden goose status there if you come in and you're able to just knock out the perfect articulation that just happened.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah no it's that's that's really interesting um as well so all right so kind of finished up the the main main topic uh first main topic now we're gonna move into um talking about AI and the expansion of work uh around uh or potential of work expansion around ai so one of the benefits that are are communicated frequently about AI is you know efficiency driving efficiency it's you know allows you know humans to do more do it faster and do it with less less time a lot of times it is um but you know it also can enable someone who may not be as skilled in one area to compensate for that lack of skill because of because of AI. And so when there is that expectation that you can just lean on AI for the things you may not be as skilled at, I can definitely see a scenario where you are taking on many more responsibilities instead of instead of using that space to breathe and think and create now we're just doing role expansion uh the other way. So I mean do you from where you sit right now and obviously AI is is is always a big topic and AI is changing every single day but just from where you sit right now do you see AI making people better at their jobs or is it just adding more for them to do.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

I don't think it makes anybody better at their job. I I think that at your core as a human being only you can make yourself better. Um and maybe that's semantics, but it can make people output more content, more volume. Yep. Um but there's a flip side to that. There's a dark side to that. Right. And it comes with accountability. So if I assign something to you and it's it's a heavy workload, I expect you to use AI to kind of churn through the the the minute hay, if you will, um the the tedious stuff. But if you hand it back to me without looking at it, without checking it, then you just devalued yourself.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

You're you're there to make sure that the the data itself is valid, that your output is valid regardless of how much there is. Yep. So you make a choice when you you know when you leverage AI to output a week's worth of work and you turn it in after one day I that you're standing by that. You can't put that on me to check your work and then I have to have you spend the next four days going through it manually.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

So have you saved any time have you shown your value? Are you better? It just depends. I think that your value is shown on producing complete and accurate work. But I don't really care how you get it done. Right. You know um and I would expect you to tell me what is realistic in terms of the timeline. If I expect you to have it done by the end of the day and you say that's going to take a lot of validation give me an extra two days okay you know that's totally fine. I trust you to accurately report right back to it. But I don't think it makes anybody better.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Interesting. Yeah I I think you know from my perspective AI is it can be an amplifier right if you're already good at something maybe it can help you do it a little bit better or open up some some some ideas or some windows that may not have existed uh before but you have to be smart enough to know how to use it in a way that can get to those those types of outcomes. You know one of the things and this has been in the media and been in the press a lot is you know entry level jobs are decreasing. There's fewer entry-level jobs college students are concerned about those because AI can do those entry-level tasks that's where you know you bring people in and that's how they learn the work right we were talking about talent pipeline you know a minute ago like this obviously can have an impact on that. So you know what would you anticipate would happen if we just start replacing most entry level roles not all but most entry level roles with with AI that would do the tasks of someone at entry level I have an opinion on this in terms of the US economy and I'm going to stay away from that because that's the political thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

I think what would actually happen is you'd see a collapse of upward mobility for for your career. And I say your career B V and my career like we're you know we're relatively high up in our careers to the point where we know a little bit about how things work. We put a lot of time into what we've done we have a lot of history and experience um if we were to replace entry level with AI our jobs would disappear and I say that because in order for me to move up I have to find my replacement in order for me to move up I had to train at least two people to do the job I was doing as good or better than me. Yep. And if there's no pipeline for that I'm not going anywhere. Right. In fact I'm I'm going out not up. Yeah and that's not where I want to go I would I would not like it if we replaced every entry level job with AI. And I know that's the trend.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

But I'm hoping Or at least that's what's in the media. Whether that's the reality of uh whether that's hype or whether that's reality I don't I don't think we know that fully yet.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

I think it's fair to stop looking at things in terms of like what industry you want to work in. You know and as somebody who was in a completely different industry before I started in retail media and and the many many people that I know similar to that um we we I would say we all kind of chuckle when we call it the industry because this is just an industry. We took our experience that was completely unrelated to you know a bystander and we applied it to what we're doing now and we still pull on experience that we had that might seem unrelated. Why should it be any different for somebody who's starting at the very very bottom why should somebody not get experience as uh working um working for a restaurant you know or or working at a supermarket um restocking you know doing some something manual or something maybe less glorious for a while to get some career experience it's not as though you can only use those skills in that one scenario right take them with you wherever for sure yeah so I would consider that to maybe be the new entry level job. Yeah and why not? Yeah there's millions of them.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Yeah and I I in my opinion like if you start to eliminate entry level jobs you're just you're you're you know paying buying Peter to pay Paul right you're you're you're just you're sacrificing your future because you don't have those people who are who have those skills those foundational skills you know of course you know some of the some of the work is menial tasks and may not necessarily add a ton of value in the beginning but though that those are the foundations that everybody builds their careers on by understanding how these things how these things work and you know building building that up and so if you let ai do that then who's going to do that work and who becomes the managers of the future and then who becomes the leaders of your organization in the future. And maybe it won't matter at that point maybe we'll all have digital twins that will be you know working working for us and we'll all be on AMI you know and yeah and not having to worry about that anymore.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

That'd be nice maybe we could have UBI and you know like sort of sort of uh kind of just having an environment where all our needs our basic most basic needs are met and we can gather on a hilltop and just sing songs into the night um no I I'm being sarcastic obviously but I I do think that like if things if things really go down that road then that's what has to happen. Right. We're shooting ourselves in the foot.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Yeah yeah I I again I I firmly believe that AI will be a tool that we use and you know humans still need to be orchestrating those tools in order to do the things that we need to do.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

Yeah it's funny I think when the autocorrect feature showed up on Word I I'm willing to bet that there was an uproar on oh everybody's gonna forget how to spell. Nobody's gonna even bother to learn how to spell anymore. I mean right now I type with my thumbs and I can't spell worth a crap on my phone. So it really doesn't make a difference. It doesn't interpret what my thumbs are trying to say anyway.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Nobody could get me for being a bad speller.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Maybe that's a skill you want to work on. Maybe let AI do that's one you want to let AI do for you.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Yeah and you know AI doesn't normally get it spell check doesn't even get it right.

Bold Vibes Rapid-Fire Round

A Quiet Kindness Challenge

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Not all the time no definitely not so yeah I I I think you know thinking about the impact that AI will have on on talent um and you know roles and role expansion I I think if if somebody is a manager and a leader uh within organization you know truly having asking the questions and having the I having the thoughts on what role is AI really playing with my team and you know how can I continue to use that tool to help them have more time have more thinking time more strategy time not necessarily giving them more stuff to do. Now everybody works at a business of some sort and there are obviously financial pressures and changes so there's always going to have to be some sort of balance that has to take place but you know trying to find ways to give your people more more time and more space is definitely going to be a a win a win in the long run for sure. I agree completely awesome all right well with that we're gonna move on to uh our little game time so are you ready to have a little bit of fun you're ready to to do some bold vibes I need Wes's bold vibes bold vibes bold vibes so quick reactions don't overthink it I'm gonna give you a statement tell me what you think all right you ready yeah I'm ready okay all right entry level roles will disappear in the next five years no AI will make average performers look great and expose top performers no no your first job matters less than ever yes absolutely correct soft skills are about to become the hardest skills I agree with that the best employees in five years won't look like the best employees today I don't know I do not know okay you don't need a boss you need a system no you need a boss you need a boss all right a little humanity there if you had to choose human boss or ai boss human boss oh yeah human boss all right cool well all right thanks for playing bold vibes so Wes it's been great having you on the show and sharing your thoughts and opinions uh today um you know really appreciate you coming on uh you have an opportunity to plug anything that you that you want oh gosh what am I gonna plug um hi mom and uh hi honey I'll be home soon um maybe I could just ask your audience if they would think about doing a random act of kindness today and here's the challenge that's not hard to do it here's the challenge don't tell anybody just do it and then go on about your day and let it be your little fun secret.

Wrap-Up And How To Support

SPEAKER_03 55:06

Awesome I'm gonna go do it myself except I just told everybody so it doesn't count. Well you say what you did. That's true. Yeah it could happen at any moment it could strike at any time good job Wes on your random act of kindness that you get to do. All right I'll I'll update you on it later secretly.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

All right well that's a wrap on this episode don't forget to like it share it comment it leave a review uh if you want to check out all of the episodes of Retail Media Vibes we're getting close to 20 episodes but you can go to retailmedia vibes dot com and check out all the past episodes so thank you all for listening and tuning in I promise to do better next time.