Ep . 19 - Breaking the Rules: How Challenger Brands Can Win at Big Retail

Downtime is a profit leak and playing by the old rules of retail is a guaranteed way to get buried by legacy corporations. Navigating the modern marketplace requires a distinct level of agility, especially when smaller companies are expected to run the same race as industry giants without the same resources. We sit down with Allisha Watkins, CEO and founder of Paradox Retail, to break down how emerging brands can disrupt the status quo and win shelf space.

We get into the specific tactical elements that separate successful startups from companies that flame out early. Allisha shares insights on why a single channel strategy fails across diverse environments like Walmart, Costco, and Instacart, and how to identify true shopper barriers. We explore the realities of building a boutique agency, shifting marketing budgets during economic headwinds, and the operational friction of digital shelf labels. Allisha also highlights her unique agency philosophy, noting that working with these founders is often fifty percent execution, thirty percent teaching, and twenty percent therapy.

The unglamorous truth is that building a brand from nothing is an emotional, high-stakes grind that forces founders to place massive personal bets. You cannot rely on a generic cookie-cutter approach or piece-meal tactics like jumping onto every new social media commerce trend without a stable foundation. Viewers will walk away with a systemized understanding of retail logistics, a realistic look at margin pressures, and the ultimate reminder that clarity beats complexity every single time.

If you care about retail media, brand scaling, and tactical marketing execution, you will get a lot from this conversation. Be sure to subscribe to the channel and share this episode with a fellow entrepreneur who is building something from the ground up. What is the biggest roadblock your business is facing when trying to break into major retail spaces? Let us know in the comments below.

Transcript

Welcome To Retail Media Vibes

SPEAKER_00 0:08

What's up, party people? BV here and welcome to another episode of Retail Media Vibes, a doing business in Bentonville podcast. We are recording live at Podcast Video Studios in Rogers, Arkansas. If you're interested in starting your own podcast for your business, your brand, or your passion, the great people at Podcast Videos are here to help and they make it easy to get going and keep it going. Today I'm joined by Alicia Watkins, CEO and founder of Paradox Retail, a woman-owned retail marketing agency based right here in Northwest Arkansas. Alicia works with Challenger and Emerging Brands to help them grow retail. And she is the perfect guest for today's topic, where we are going to talk a lot about Challenger brands. I think we'll say the word challenger like 103 times. So you might want to have a shot glass ready just in case you want to drink every time we say the word challenger. So the topics we're going to discuss are why challenger brands need a different playbook for retail. And then what does it mean to build a challenger agency and having that mindset to do that? So we're also going to uh talk about uh campaigns, instead of campaigns we love this time around, we're going to do challenger brands we love. So Alicia and I will both bring a challenger brand to the table and we'll talk about that as well. So with that all out of the way, it's time to meet our guest, Alicia Watkins. So Alicia, welcome to Retail Media Vibes.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Uh so like to get to know you a little bit for well, I know you, but let's let the audience get to know you a little bit. So let's have a quick version about your story. I love a good origin story. Okay. So uh love to hear a little bit about you and how you got to where you

Why Paradox Retail Exists

SPEAKER_00 1:57

are today.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah. So I've always been at the center of um brands and retail and marketing. But honestly, the biggest thing that um has shaped me and how I got to where I am today is realizing that um the industry um was uh broken. The advertising industry was broken. Everything felt really slow, overcomplicated, siloed. Um brands were spending a lot of money, including myself in a previous role. Um and it was um we were struggling to have the momentum that we wanted to have in our in our roles. And I knew there had to be a better way, especially for emerging challenger brands to grow and especially in the retail environment. And so I built Paradox um to be the agency, to be the partner, to be um the um support that I wished that I had had um, and um to be faster, to be more integrated, to be more accountable, um, to be less political, less layers in the agency world, to be more um proactive, more action-oriented, and more aligned. And um, today Paradox helps brands do just that. And so we navigate everything from retail media to shopper strategy to um creative and commerce and all the things that it takes to grow a brand in a retail environment across all things um retail. Um, but at the end of the day, I'm just really someone who genuinely likes to build something to solve problems, um, to identify um unique ways to break through the noise and to help um brands and entrepreneurs um fulfill their passion and their vision.

The Meaning Behind Paradox

SPEAKER_00 3:55

So, why the name Paradox? Why did you choose that name?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

It's a really great question. So um, Renee Brown is a huge influence on my life. And um, my co-founder and I at the time had read a book called Darren Greatly. And um, in the book, she talks about um in your life being brave and afraid all at the same time. And entrepreneurship is just that. And in with a paradox, um, it is just um there is, especially with retail, it's about um the speed and complexity and fast yet slow. And there are so many paradoxes when it comes to both marketing and the retail environment in our daily lives as well as what we actually do. Yeah. Um, and I'm constantly saying it every single day. Um, it's how we live it, it's how we breathe it. Um, and it truly is the embodiment of what we do and how we deliver um what we what we do for our brands. So it's it's a perfect name. Um, and it's easy to say uh and and delivers well.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah, I mean, that's awesome. I I think you're really describing a lot of the challenges that we see in retail today, right? It's so, so dynamic. You know, we, you know, where I've been around, we've talked about the speed of retail, right? And that and that phrase means so much in this environment because things do move fast, things do change. There are a ton of stakeholders, you know, and you have to have that blend of, you know, kind of big thinking, but also scrappies, scrappy ways to get things done in a in a in a in a good way, right? That can help serve uh the needs of a brand at at retail. So I admire that that that approach for sure. Um, all right. So

Walk Up Songs And What We Read

SPEAKER_00 5:42

a little icebreaker question to get get to know you a little bit. So this was not on the sheet.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Oh, I'm nervous.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

All right. Uh are you are you familiar with wrestling? Wrestling.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Wrestling?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yes, wrestling.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

So each wrestler has a walk-up song.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

What would your walk-up song be? What would they play when you walk through this door to sit into this or you walk into your gosh, I just literally said this to someone today.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

No way. My walk-up song song would be um run this town by Rihanna.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Very cool, very cool. Um, I think for me today, I I I was thinking about this question a little bit. That's why I got added on last minute. Uh, I think lose yourself, MM. I think you know there's so much of that song that really embodies, you know, like having that moment, preparing for that moment, yeah, and making sure that moment can happen.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Um, I'm not saying this podcast is that moment. Yeah, yeah. So it's a good one. Yep. Um, is there anything you've been watching or reading or listening to that you know you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Gosh, so I'm a very curious person. And I, I mean, I could go on and on for the the books. Um, no, I've been, I said Brene is such a huge influence on my life. I've been um maniacally focused and obsessed with her new um book called Strong Ground. And I listen to it almost every day. Um and I like to hear her voice, but I also re-listen to it constantly just because um there are moments I feel like in time um where there are components of it that are relevant during that period of time where it makes sense. Yeah. And so I'm constantly sending snippets to my team. Yeah um and they probably get annoyed by it. But um I and to even my friends and and family, but it's such a powerful read and andor listen. Um, so that's probably my favorite one. Um, but um personally I've got some some books I I read as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Um to your reader.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I am a reader.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Have you been like a reader for a long time in your life, or is it something that comes and goes? For me, it comes and goes. Like I have like I was talking to somebody yesterday about this. Like, I have like one little extracurricular curricular thing that I do, whether it's like playing video games or you know, or or reading. I can't do both, right? And so I was I was playing video games over the winter. Now I'm reading. Um I'll say what I'm reading in a minute. But you know, are you are you like have you always been a reader?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Probably more of a reader than a video gamer.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Well, okay. All right, fair enough. Fair enough. Um, yeah. So I'm reading, uh, and this was a recommendation from a friend of mine, uh Ryan Hughes and uh Ashley Keller, who's at um at best of see. Um Dungeon Crawler Carl. So what's really interesting about that book is uh, and it's actually a series of books, uh, and I'm on the third book right now. The really interesting thing about that book is it's it it mixes kind of that video game mentality with a story format. So it I do kind of get that video game side of things, you know, uh uh role-playing game uh type of uh mentality and structure into into the book. And it's actually a really interesting book. Anyway, um cool. Well, I it's great for you to appreciate you sharing

AI Coaches In Shopping Apps

SPEAKER_00 9:05

that. So uh all right, with that now, we're gonna move into quick hits. We're gonna talk about some stories that have happened over the last couple of weeks that love to get your opinion, opinion on and uh you know, see what you think. So the first one is Dix is deploying AI agents as digital coaches. So basically, digital sporting goods is partnering with Adobe to bring AI-powered digital coaches into their app. And so the idea is really about personalization of shopping experience, is one piece of it. But then providing recommendations around like training tips and sport specific things, like you know, your baseball, you know, something around maybe baseball or football or whatever you may be your sport you may be into. Um and so it's it's a really interesting component because for me, because I'm thinking about it when the standpoint of like how much context does it really have and and and is it really something that is is needed in in a shopping app to have those type that type of information and that type of uh support. So when you when you saw this story, what it what did you what did you like or what did you think about it?

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah. Well, honestly, my first gut reaction is this is where retail has been um heading for a while. Consumers don't just want products anymore. They want a trusted partner, they want confidence, they want guidance, they want personalization, as you just mentioned with El Word, um especially in categories like sports, um, beauty, nutrition, where there's a lot of choice, there's a lot of overwhelming, and especially for a parent like me who has no idea what the terms are for lacrosse in a year three. I still don't know their roles. Um and you know, the key though is to understand whether that AI adds value or complexity. Yeah. And um, and if it if it's helpful or not, or or if it's just noise. And so it's if it's genuinely, genuinely helping that consumer or that shopper um achieve their goal, then, then yes. I think it's going to be powerful.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

If it feels like it's um just a sales tool and just upsell, then then no. And they're going to see right through it.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, I think you hit the word, it's value, right? There's this value exchange between the user and the app. And if there's true value in that, then obviously it will be helpful and you know help that be successful. Um, there is obviously risk in that. So what if somebody uses it and what it gets in return is not very good. Uh, how does it have the context in which to provide that level of information, like that personalization, right? So, you know, if you shop at Dix, I'm sure Dix has been storing your shopping data, but how does it really know like where you may be weak in your sport, you know, or something like that, where you can really provide that valuable information. So it'll it'll be interesting to see how this grows. But I I mean, I like the idea. It's the execution that we'll have to see if it really brings the value to shoppers, as you said.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So Yeah, I I think that for them in particular, I'm a very loyal um Dick Sporting Goods shopper. Um, we spend a lot of our dollars there because we span the gamut from football, soccer, or lacrosse, um, gosh, um, cheer to a number of different sports. But I think the interesting thing for them is that if they can remove that friction, um, not add complexity. The the key that you said though is that um whether or not the shoppers will trust. And um that trust is earned and it can be removed very, very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

And it will it will not take much for the shopper to um uh see right through that. And so I think it's really important for them to make sure that they're continuously thinking through how they become that partner and not just another um robotic um upsell an agent for them.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

So yeah, I like it. All right. Uh, next

Pricing Pressure Across Retailers

SPEAKER_00 13:30

story. So Amazon allegedly pushed vendors to raise prices at Target and Walmart. So California has an antitrust suit against Amazon uh that says or alleges that Amazon worked through vendors to raise prices on competing retailer sites, including Walmart and Target. And there are several brands that are named, like Levi's, Haynes, Newell Brands, and many others. So this is an interesting thing, right? Because, you know, and you work with brands all the time, you know, and and you know, like setting a price is a challenging thing. And when you work with a retailer, there is a certain level of negotiation that takes place to get to a certain uh MSRP or or or price that's in the store. And so there is that natural negotiation that takes place. But what I what is being alleged here is Amazon said, hey, you got to go instead of lower the costs on Amazon, they said, go and raise the prices elsewhere to make us more competitive. So that's I think where the anti tr antitrust uh comes in. So, you know, how hard is it for brands to manage these pricing conversations when there are multiple retailers that, you know, they can see what each other retailer, yeah, they can go to the website, right? They can see what something costs there. And like how how hard is it for brands, especially like challenger brands, like brands that are kind of just entering into the space or you know, don't have a lot of um equity and still don't have a lot of uh ways to balance things in their favor.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, it's incredibly hard. Whether you have the resources, um, as your your legacy brands or your bigger brands do, like the Haynes that you mentioned, or you're a challenger brand and you don't. You don't have the logistics teams, the finance teams, the teams to do all of that work, right? Um, and all of these um individuals, these brands, they are are in active negotiations on a daily basis. We feel it, we hear it, we see it. Yeah. Um, regardless of our role um as a marketing agency, um, they're we're constantly involved as a part of that because uh we see that on our side. But they are um exposed to that. The retailers are seeing it at a rapid rate. I mean, in the past, sitting on the other side from a brand perspective, um, I remember being in buyer meetings and they would get reports um saying that, you know, they would receive promos. And now it's in in minutes that they would see whether there was a deal or a price decrease. And now with marketplace, I mean, the amount of exposure that's out there, there's nowhere for these brands to hide. Right. Um, and so there are constant negotiations, not just with other retailers, but with price increases as it relates to costs, cost of goods, especially with economic situations that are happening out there right now. Yeah. And so it's a real struggle for a lot of our clients, especially the ones who um can't absorb that, right? And so the biggest impact that we feel is that impacts marketing.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah, of course. Yeah, you only have so much to you can work with, right? And so if you've got a cut here, the money's got to come from somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah. Yeah. And so if you can imagine when there were tariff situations in the past year, the first thing that was impacted was marketing. Um, and so we we felt that. Um, and when you're an emerging or challenger brand and you're trying to break through the noise and you're trying to get your name out there, um, it's incredibly difficult when you're hit with um needing to have promotions, you're needing to make sure that you're competitively priced and the retailers are coming at you at the same time. Yeah. And so the amount of pressure um that are on these companies is very real. Yeah. Um, and so we spend a lot of time having those conversations with them, helping them to prepare um for those presentations with their broker partners or elsewhere. But um it's it's uh it's a challenge for them. And I I imagine it's not going to get any easier, um, especially with the level um of information that's available.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah, I also think that with, you know, and you know, Walmart is rolling out digital shelf labels and in their stores and doing half now and half, you know, soon thereafter. While there is, you know, a public statement that they are not doing dynamic pricing, right? They've said that they're not doing dynamic pricing. You still have that ability to change those prices on a more real-time basis than you did before when the label actually had to change on the shelf, right? Because you had a human involved and somebody had to print it. Now you have this digital thing, you a few keystrokes and the price can change. I do feel like we're gonna get to, again, not saying that there's dynamic pricing, but I do think that there will be a lot more fluctuation over shorter periods of time. May not be the same day, could be over a week, could be it, you know, every other day, could be every month. But I do think that there is um potential for that, those price changes to happen or occur um much more regularly or much more frequently than they ever have before.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah, I agree. I mean, we see it online.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah, well, and online is already there, right? But you know, with Walmart with, you know, 80% of shopping happening in store, that has a much bigger impact um than their online, which it obviously that's growth channel, and there's there's a lot happening there as well, right? So yeah, it's interesting. It's it's interesting. You know, I again as as we talked about, there's always been that that dynamic of negotiation, but it seemed like in this case, at least what's alleged, it it went the different a different direction than what is you know probably uh acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah, negotiation is an interesting word because we do see some of our um a bit more legacy uh brains having uh more stricter conversations when it comes to that, uh, where there's a bit more leniency maybe towards the emerging and challenger brands, but it's still happening. Yeah. And um, you know, they're they're not prepared for that. And uh it's it's a challenge for them. And so we try to make sure that they um foresee that coming and are prepared, especially as we look at what their channel strategy is, not just at a particular retailer, but across their entire ecosystem. Um, and so um, that is part of our role, is making sure we're looking at the entire picture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

All right, let's move on to story number three.

ChatGPT Ads Move To CPC

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Open AI has now gone from CPM pricing ads to cost per click ads inside of uh Chat GPT. So they they turned it on, um, which is really interesting because uh for me, this seems like a signal to become more of a performance-based advertising platform than an impression-based platform. It was interesting. So, what I read was I think the the the starting point for the CPM for ChatGPT ads was somewhere around 50, 60 bucks and it got down to like 25 bucks. And now they're gonna try and do costs per click um at somewhere between three and and and five, five dollars per click. And so it's interesting. I think, you know, in a way, when you interact with with a uh Chat GPT uh and use an LLM, it really feels like this is like the ultimate and contextual targeting, right? Because contextual targeting is all about understanding what you're talking about, being at the in in the right uh mindset in the right frame of of reference to serve an ad that is relevant to where where your mindset is, right? And so it feels like this is contextual, has high probability of being relevant. Um and so are are you surprised that they've gone down this road of going to a cost per click strategy?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

No, not at all. Um I I'm not surprised. I think everyone knew that monetization was coming. I think we are um a little bit surprised that the timing is just Faster than than what it is today. But when consumers are using the platform not just for information, but for purchase decisions, they're smart. It's happening faster than what we had expected. And that's the history of every single major digital platform that's out there. Right. So I I saw it coming. Honestly, and I would have expected in the next 24 months at any point, anyways. I think what's interesting is that it's not just another media channel. It's becoming more of the decision-making process itself, which is different than other platforms itself to your comment about the contextual part and that in itself is what's most interesting. And I want to dig deeper into that particular part of the topic.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah, because I think what's what's interesting to me is also when does the ad show up? Right. And so I, you know, I watched a little video clip of how it works and so forth. And it was actually after one prompt and all of a sudden an ad popped up. It usually takes me several follow-ups before I get to my decision, right? Because I'm usually trying to clarify. You know, it's giving me multiple options. I'm trying to navigate the options that are coming through in the chat. But if it's throwing me an ad every interaction to click away, I feel like it's very disruptive. I feel like it has to have the intelligence. And I believe it could have the intelligence, whether or not it will. We'll see. But it needs to have the intelligence of like, okay, this person is now at the point where a decision has been made or is close to me. Now serve the ad. Don't serve the ad after every single interaction that we have, because that will be super, very disruptive. The other side of it, too, is look, I I ran, I had my rant on the last podcast, but I'm very disappointed that this is the best we could come up with for monetizing AI. I it we've got to get past advertising for everything. So not going to go there. I did that last time. But I, you know, I do think that like in this scenario, like these ads are going to be available to the free tier. So now it sets up this situation where people who pay don't see ads, and people who can't pay or should like it, just feels like it changes a dynamic of who you're reaching most of the time that is using these applications. It's people who you know probably don't don't want to pay for, well, don't want to pay for the service. Maybe can't afford the service. Yeah. And so you're it feels like you're segmenting your audience very significantly. I I don't know. So so it's I'm frustrated in a way because I don't get to see the ads because I pay for it, because I need to pay for because of what I do uh as my as my job. So anyway, I I I just I just think that there's there's a lot of opportunities here to get this right. I I don't know if it will.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

I don't think it will in the beginning either. Um I think search and social has trained us to be accustomed to be interrupted, first of all, um, unfortunately. And I I don't think that they will get this right too uh in in the immediate. Um I I think it will be most beneficial when it is um supportive, but they're not going to learn how to read those contextual cues first to be able to help support that, nor will the information be there on the ready from the brands to begin with. It's gonna be messy.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Also, I think search is transactional, transactional, anyways. Yes. And AI is emotional. Chat is emotional, right? Our it it's it is very emotional. Our lives are messy. We're we're not putting in like um dinner tonight. We're putting in, I would love to create a new recipe. You know, we're we're massaging the messages that we're putting into these to these chat messages. And so it is a very emotional um message that we're putting in there. And so it's going to have to learn how to read that. And brands are going to learn how to have to adapt to that first. And and that in itself is is very messy. Um, so I think it's going to take a lot of learning before we can get to a place where there's any type of um uh performance out of those ads. Yeah. And um, and it's gonna be clunky.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Yeah. And and are are the brands you work with asking about advertising through chat to be tape?

SPEAKER_01 26:59

No. And they shouldn't be. Yeah, honestly. They should not be. They need to get the foundation right first. Um, they need to be focused on themselves. Um, they need to be worried about their messaging and make sure it's clear that they've got their reviews, they've got their their stuff right, that their site is good, that their brand identity is right, their trust, their education, that the the they are differentiated from anything else, and that their SEO is is locked in. And even then we're not ready for for that yet. Um and I think that once I'm not saying that that's not a great place for them to explore because it is ripe territory and that they have a that they could um begin to break through. Yeah. And um it's not a place where it's uh pay-to-play necessarily like searches.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

No.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Um, however, uh, we've got to get some foundational stuff done for oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll talk more about the playbook here in a minute. Um, well, let's move on to story last. Story last, which is the fourth

When Real Ads Look Like AI

SPEAKER_00 28:08

story. So uh so the brand Quip, known for their electric toothbrushes. Yes, you are. So they created an ad that wasn't AI generated, but people thought it was. So now we're in this situation, it's kind of flipped the script where, you know, an ad that people think is real and people are questioning it's whether it's AI. Now people are saying it's AI when it's actually done by done done by people. So they created this 15-second ad, and it had a human with a mouth for a head lounging in a spa with an oversized toothbrush. And so the view viewers thought, oh, that's AI. And then Quip had to come out and say, nope, this is not AI. This is we we really shot this. So what do you think that really signals in in advertising when when you're doing stuff that's not AI and it's being called out as AI? And obviously when you're doing stuff that's AI and then they're then people are calling out as AI, right? So everybody's AI hyper sensitive, it seems.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah, it's uh the old saying, uh, damned if you do, damned if you don't, right? Um honestly, I think it says a lot about the moment that we are in culturally, right? Um, we've become so conditioned to think that um uh seeing all these hyper polished, surreal moments are AI generated. Right. Um, and these unexpected visuals are just that when actually it was someone being very creative and um and and potentially weirdly creative in a way. Um and you know, I think at the same time, I understand why people want to assume that um because we've kind of conditioned them to think that over the past what 24 months, um, 48. And so I think that with this, it's um we're beginning to see that that shift of folks who are thinking that, expecting it, but also second guessing it and also wondering that why is that happening and should it be happening? Um, at the same time, is it okay? And am I okay with it or not? Yeah. And so that's the question I think that they're asking themselves is but does that resonate with them? And regardless if it's AI or not, um, does it matter to me? And did that work for me? And did it resonate with me? And did it speak to me? And did it, you know? So I think that's the most important thing that the brand should be asking themselves is not, you know, did my consumers care about whether it was or was not AI? Um, what did it do?

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think I think there's a lot of sensitivity around AI in general, um, for a lot of reasons and a lot of really good reasons for that matter. However, I I do think what's happening or what will happen. I recently saw um a uh I think it was an e-marketer uh chart that said like 61% of people who know an ad is AI will have a negative attitude towards a brand. Right. Well, how I looked at that is hey, that means 39% are cool with it, right? And I think that's part of that is really because there will become a normalization of the usage of this type of technology that is done responsibly, that will become acceptable. And I know like we give Coca-Cola a lot of crap about their holiday commercial that they did that was AI generated, and two years ago it was bad, and then last year it was bad. But that is just all part of the process. The more we get exposed to AI and the different types of creative of AI, the more we get used to it. And we just, you know, I don't want to say we just subcumb to the pressure. But like there are other technologies that are not real that can be used in a similar way. They're just not done as efficiently.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Here's what I see. I agree with you. I think we we become used to it, but then I think we appreciate more the craftsman, craftsmanship of the real as well at the same time. And when we can see that those artists, um, especially in certain categories, like like maybe luxury categories, um, or even in the arts, you know, categories where there are true artists who are brilliant and it's beautiful. Um, and you can appreciate that, right? And and they shine even more than they ever have, because you can actually um see the diff, you know, maybe see the difference there. Um, I think that that's going to be the the paradox of of the two. And um I think that that we're going to see that um come out a little bit more. I do think that most consumers don't care if it's AI developed or or not if it's helped with editing or part of the process or whatever. I think they they just want to know that it's they just want the authenticity and that they want to trust it. They just want to be exposed. They don't want to be fooled.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah. Yeah, they don't want to be duped.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Right. Yeah. And I totally get that. And I think I'm all for AI transparency for sure. Right. And so I I actually I'm really surprised that there hasn't been as much of a push towards AI transparency as there is. You see, you see it in spots, but you don't see it holistically within the industry. And so that's that's really, really um, I can see that coming though. You think so?

SPEAKER_01 34:13

I think it should.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah, I uh two years ago I went to CES and I was in a pan, I watched a panel and there was a guy there from Adobe who was talking about um like a nutrition label for creative. And so, which which communicated how basically how much AI or whatever technologies that were used to create a piece of of digital artwork. And I do think that there is some sort of opportunity there to help with that, whether that's embedded in the metadata or there's some other uh you know piece of of information that that is shared, a tag or whatever. I know a lot of times we if you you know if you're on LinkedIn and you use an AI generated image, it will automatically put a little tag on on that. But I don't see that often in other, in other uh other platforms.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah, I mean it's similar to anything like we do with an influencer, right? They're they're paid partner of a program, right? No different. They're disclosing that um transparency.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Hashtag ad.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Correct. Yeah, no different.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Of course. Cool. Well, obviously, this is one that is not going to uh end. So that will be a conversation that will continue. But

What Makes A Challenger Brand

SPEAKER_00 35:23

uh, we're gonna move on now to our our main topic and why challenger brands need a different playbook. So we've already hinted around uh, you know, challenger brands in in the opening. Um, you know, these usually are emerging brands. Uh, they're very disruptive. But from your point of view, how would you define a challenger brand?

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah, that's a really great question. And I get asked often.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Um, there is no set revenue goal, uh number of employees, distribution. Um, I define challenger brands as a brand who is ready to disrupt um the category. They want to do something different. They have uh a desire to be curious, they're driven. Um, they embody um some of even our core values of um, you know, doing things differently and um, you know, trying to explore different ways of approaching um growth and they're not afraid.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Right.

unknown 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Yeah, I mean you you you definitely have to have that, like I said, the edge um to be able to do that. And, you know, we were talking before the show about working with challenger brands and you know, the role that you have to play and your team has to play working with these brands. And it

Doing The Work Teaching Therapy

SPEAKER_00 36:49

was an interesting mix that you shared because it's you said it was can be 50% doing the work, 30% training and teaching, and probably my favorite part, 20% therapy. Uh, and obviously that that can mix depending on the the day, maybe even the hour. Um, so tell the audience more about what you meant about about that mix of how it looks to work with a challenger brand.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah. So I would say, first of all, I have learned very quickly in working with challenger brands why uh traditional agencies don't do it today. It's a lot of it's a lot of work. And it requires the job goes beyond way executive, beyond execution, right? Um, we're doing the actual work, the strategy, the creative, the retail media, all the things that that we're hired to do. Um, but a huge part of the relationship, so that's the 50%, right? That's on the scope of work. A huge part of the work is also teaching them because they've never been here before. Um, and unfortunately, the industry kind of shuns them for that. Right. Um, and so we are um there to help them learn and navigate those ropes and try to um, you know, get one step ahead of uh a bad decision. Yeah. Or, you know, try to make sure that they're not making some of those those bad choices. One of the things I learned very early on is um they are so afraid of making a wrong choice. And for that reason, they will likely make no decision in in some cases, or they've been burnt before. Um, and so part of our job is to help them understand the dynamics of the retailer environment, um, the considerations, the expectations, the margins, the velocity, um, the supply chain, um, the pressures, the retail media environment, the category, the competitive landscape, what they're up against on the daily basis. Because a lot of times they have no idea. Um, even the buyers and their dynamics, right? Yeah. Um, and so that's the 30%. The 20% is often, I find founder um focused and sometimes sales led. Like, right? These some of these teams are very lean and they are do, they are wearing a lot of hats. Um, they uh oftentimes lean on us as their emotional support because um they are under a lot of pressure, a lot of stress. And building a brand is incredibly hard. Sure. Um, it requires them to have place massive bets, oftentimes personal bets on their own with limited resources, a lot of pressure. Um, some days they need strategy, some days they need clarity, some days they need just someone to tell them it's gonna be okay. Yep. Um, and to get them to not spiral, right? Um, and oftentimes, you know, that's me or my team. Um, and you know, that we're there for them. Sometimes it's 50% therapy. Um, you know, and sometimes it flips a little bit. Um, but we're there to support them in in whatever that that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

If this stuff was easy, we wouldn't have jobs.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Right. Um, yeah, and I think I I imagine you your experiences with different brands, the people that you interact with have different backgrounds, right? Um, you know, they probably aren't marketers, some, you know, most likely, right? There's they're they're CEOs and founders and you know, creators um as well. And so you have to, you know, manage that. And I think that's a little bit different. So, like, you know, I've I've worked big agency, big brands. There's usually a marketer I'm working with on the other side or a team of marketers I'm working with on the other side that have probably been educated or at least have experience in marketing, hopefully. But most of the time, yes. In your case, you got to teach them marketing and everything. Yes, they're relying on you to provide that service, of course. But you also have to, you know, you you also have to, you know, train them and teach them. And so that that that part really resonated with me as well as part of the as part of your your mix. Um,

Why The Playbook Is Not Linear

SPEAKER_00 41:21

so what is the what does that playbook look like when you know, generally for a challenger brand, like to see success or at least get that traction uh for with a retailer?

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

I know I know it's a big question. I mean probably another two and a half hours of talk, but but what like go on and on about this?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Okay, so I will I'll be honest with you. Early on, we thought it was like, you know, um, this step to this step to this step. Yeah, it's not. Yeah. And and and it never will be. And it's not these six things. Right. And it never will be. Each brand is different and unique. Um, each company is different and unique as it should be, because they're all starting at a different place and they're all um working towards something different. Um, and we meet them where they are. It doesn't mean that we're not doing different things, it means we approach it differently because we have to. And that's what works.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Um, because if we don't do that and we apply the same principles and the same tactics and the same plan as every other brand and every other company that we've worked with, it won't work. Right. That's the secret sauce. Yeah. We have to embody what are the shopper barriers, what are the motivators, what are the mindsets. Um, what do what are we trying to solve? And we have to keep coming back to that. Yeah. And make sure that everything that we're doing delivers on that as as well as what are the retailers expecting of us. Yep. And if we do that in itself, also knowing what's happening in and around us with competitors and the environment and the industry, um, we're we're going to win.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah. I would expect that someone who works for you on your team would have to be as passionate about the brand as the people who are on the challenger brand.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

So it's their business.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

You know, you have to really and I think obviously that makes a good marketer in general. But I do think that, you know, a lot of times these are not brands with cachet. These are not established brands. So you have like you have to really dig in. You have to you have to be curious as well, right? Is that are those things that you really look for when you are, you know, building building your team, building your company?

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Yes. And when we decide who we want to work with as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

When we pick the brands that we want to work with, it's do we believe in them? Is it someone who we We believe that we can be a true extension of their team and grow their business. And um and and we have to have enough passion behind that in order for it to work. If we don't, it's not well.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

What do you say when when you run across a brand that you know maybe you don't feel the connection with? What do you say to them?

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Um we'll either offer them advisory services and or provide them alternative solutions.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Would you say like, hey, you're just not ready yet?

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Either they're not ready yet, or we'll refer them to another partner um or another um service provider.

unknown 44:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

So what is usually the biggest gap for a challenger brand coming in? And let's say they're going to, you know, start to work with Walmart and you're really getting getting going there. What is usually the biggest gap? Is it strategy? Is it budget? Is it what where do they usually have need the most help typically? Patience. Patience. They want it today. They want it like six they want they want results today, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah, they want results today. Um, I would say, I mean, yes, uh having a strategy in place is is really important. Um, a number of uh clients will come in and want to piecemeal tactics, right? They'll think that this particular thing, a TikTok shop, is going to solve their um their business.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Or chat GPT ads.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Or chat GPT ads or their retail media is is going to uh you know fix um and and help grow their business. But it's it's not. Um and so I think having a solid strategy in place and making sure that um less is more, that they are truly focused on what is going to sustainably um grow their business, um, but also being super patient in what it takes to grow um that, um, that's that's critical. And it's it's hard. It takes a while, especially for the ones who are more emerging, who are not yet established.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Yeah. Yeah. So you shepher these brands across multiple retailers, right? Not just not just one or or two retailers, maybe multiple retailers and probably different channels, right? Could be club, could be mass, convenience, et cetera. And you know, when we we talked uh ahead of of the podcast, one of the things that you said was if if their strategy works everywhere, it's not a strategy. So

Retailer Specific Strategy Or Bust

SPEAKER_00 46:37

why like why is that so important to understand?

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Yeah, because each of the retailers and the shoppers are different. I feel like if they a lot of times they'll come in with the same plan, same messaging strategies, same creative, and they'll just like apply it across the board. That's not going to work. Um and they're doing it for efficiency purposes. They're probably doing it because they have a lack of resources. Um, they're strapped for capacity, uh, but it it's only going to hurt them.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Right. And so And they probably don't understand the retailer. Like it's it's hard like to really understand a retailer in depth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Yeah. And it's multifaceted, right? Even with the retailer, there's so many dynamics that encompass that. And so um, what we try to do is make sure that we break that down of who the shoppers are within that ecosystem. What are the motivators, the barriers, the mindsets, the drivers? How do we specifically talk to them and get them, you know, to purchase? Um, and what is it truly important to them? Um, and you know, Instacar is very different from Amazon versus uh Costco versus BJ's. And yes, we work across all retail environments and we know exactly what works and what resonates with each one of those shoppers. And the trip types are different. Um, and anyone who can tell me otherwise is foolish. Um, and so I think it is really, really important that it's not hard to differentiate our marketing strategy for that. I think it's pure laziness, honestly. And it um it doesn't take a lot of time, it's not a lot of effort. It's just um making sure that our strategy is in place and it's very intentional. Um, and when we do that, it works.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah. Yeah. So in and there's obviously a lot of dynamics across those retailers. There's typically a lot of dynamics going on in the country and in the economy and things. I feel like there's also an opportunity where you even have to pivot some of your strategies across those retailers according to, you know, what may be shifting in the economy, depending on you know how you how you see the economy currently. Like talk a little bit about like how what that might look like when you have to shift because of headwind, economic headwinds, as they like to call it.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Oh, absolutely. I mean, even thinking about like there was a recent article about um, you know, with with Costco and you know, with a rising um, you know, increase in expenditures, like with Costco, they're expecting, you know, a potential downturn and you know, folks who may not be spending as much because there are fees associated with those membership fees and Sam's Club and all the fees that are associated with all these different memberships. And so you have to think about those members in particular and what does value look like to those particular members? And so, how do we differentiate our communication strategy related to that? Um, what does convenience look like when it comes to Instacart? How do we capture new to brand buyers in that space? And what does actually new to brand mean?

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

And how do you measure that uh across multiple retailers?

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Correct. If you just launched your brand, everything's new to brands, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

One million percent increase.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Numbers look really great. Um, but I think that you know it is really, really important that we make sure that we are truly thinking about the shopper dynamic, the retailer dynamic, what's happening in the ecosystem and putting a proper plan in into place. Um and that's our job. That's not the brand's job to think about all those things. Right. Um their job is to run their business, right? Um and so we come to the table with all these different dynamics and a and a full strategy and plan in place. And so uh if they don't have that, um, I think they're just like flying blind. And oftentimes these brands are building the plane while they're flying it. And I get that. We've been there too. Yeah. So I get it.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Yeah. Yeah. So here here's uh, I guess maybe there's no answer to this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

What “Made It” Really Means

SPEAKER_00 51:00

So when will a challenger brand know that they've made it? Like what is that what is that pivot point or that inflection point that we've we've made it? It doesn't mean that they aren't as aggressive. It doesn't mean they're you know changing who they are, but like you feel like there's this grind. You grind and you grind and you grind and you grind. And then like when do you feel like, or when does the challenger brand feel like, ah, you know, finally I'm I'm playing with the big boys.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

I think it depends on each um customer because we've had some who are number one in Instacart, right, for years running.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Um, and they still don't feel like they are there yet.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Right. We have some who are legacy brands who call themselves challenger brands um who still are are grinding every single day. Yeah. I think made it is an interesting word. Um, what does success look truly look like for a person? And I, in my personal opinion, I would say, did they hit their goal of what they were trying to achieve for that particular time period? Um, were they satisfied? Was their customer satisfied? How are their shoppers? Um, what does their loyalty look like? Are they satisfying their consumer? Yeah. Um, and you know, most importantly, like when we read through shopper sentiment and reviews, like, are people happy with their products? Are they coming back to them? Regardless of distribution gains and um, you know, more retailers, more, more, more all these things, like, are people loving their brand? That to me is have you made it right personally?

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Yeah, it's just, you know, a lot of times it feels like in this industry, it's sort of what have you done for me lately kind of mentality, right? You you can continue to grow and build and grow and build, but it's never enough, right? And so I'm always curious, like, and I'm and I'm never saying when I ask this type of question, I'm never saying, oh, well, then you just lay back. I'm just saying, like, you've got to have some sort of sense of accomplishment when you take something from nothing and you turn it into a brand that is recognizable, uh, products that sell um, you know, whatever dollar amount you wanna you want to talk about. Um there's gotta be at least a feeling of a sense of accomplishment that should be celebrated in that in that process. But I think sometimes we get too much of to the point that you mentioned a minute ago about someone that's been number one on Instacart, Instacart doesn't feel like they've done enough yet. And, you know, there is that hunger, right? Again, I I don't want to say like don't continue to drive and push. You should continue to drive and push, or you'll get you'll get consumed by the next challenger brand that's coming up. So uh but I I I just sometimes I think we don't celebrate enough when we we've made we've made it, right? You know, like I mean I can attest to that. Yeah, what do you can say like for for your your agency? Like, when will you know you have made it at Paradox?

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, you know, I felt this early on in a few years into the business, had had conversations about acquisitions, and I was like, oh, whoa, I'm not even there yet. Um, you know, and and and here we are. Um, but yet even still, I'm like, I'm not done yet. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not ready for that. Um, and now even having conversations about, well, now people know who you are, like, well, that's great, but I still have a long ways to go, right? And and I can empathize with with some of these brands who are in the same space of, well, but I but I'm not ready, I'm not there yet. I haven't hit my goal. But what is that goal? Yeah, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

And I think as an entrepreneur and a business owner, you don't really know what that is. You don't know what that that number is that you're chasing or what that thing is. You're just building.

unknown 55:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

And that's what you've been wired to do is to build and to create and to solve problems and to keep going. So there is no end.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

Yeah, yeah. Of course there's no end unless, yeah, unless you sell or something.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

And

Building A Challenger Agency Mindset

SPEAKER_00 55:41

well, I think this pivots right into, you know, um, our challenger mindset conversation quite a bit, right? And so I know you know you support challenger brands, you see Paradox as a challenger agency on in on its own right. Um, and so I think it helps you relate to the brands that you typically you typically work with. Um, does that mirror your mindset? Do you feel like you are a challenge, you have a challenger mindset? Do you have a chip on your shoulder, Alicia, that you're trying to prove everybody wrong?

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Yes, yeah, absolutely. I do. Um, listen, I, well, a couple of things you should you should know about me just very quickly. Yes. So seven Enneagram, I don't work in a box. And after many years on the corporate side, yes, I feel like I was always um, you know, destined to create something, to build something. And so it's not necessarily a chip on the shoulder, as it was like, I gotta go build, I gotta go do that thing. So what is that? Um, and finally I got enough courage, right, um, to to go do that. Right. And I unfortunately, fortunately enough, was given the opportunity to to go do that. Yeah, thankfully. And so it wasn't as much proving people wrong as it was to do that to myself of like, okay, I can do this. And guess what? If not, then I could always go back to that. Yeah. I've done it before a few times. I can always go back to that. Um, but what if? What if it all works out? What if it is amazing? Yeah. Um, and a whole other story for another time, right? Um, of the process to get there. But I do think that there it's something worth um exploring and just taking that leap. And I think it from a challenger perspective, it wasn't the initial thought that that's where we would focus. But as I began to carve down this path a bit more, I realized that's who needed the support the most. And that's where I felt like deserved the most. All of these big brands had the support. They had the agencies to lean on them. And which I felt like was a broken process in and of itself, study that compensation models in college and all of that. But I do, I was like, but no one is supporting these guys and they deserve it and they need it more than anyone else. So why? Now I know why. It's hard. It is hard. It's really hard. Yeah. Um, because it's more psychology than it is doing. It's more empathy than it is um just checking the box.

unknown 58:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Um, it's more coaching than execution.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Correct. Um, and it's more human than it is robotic. Like it is very much leaning in and building something with them than it is anything else. And that is what we get to wake up every single day doing.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

And for ourselves at the same time, which is wild. Right. Um, and have done multiple times over again for our agency in itself. But um, I wouldn't trade it for anything. And I have a very profound respect for the large agencies that are out there. Um, and they support us too, right? Because the clients we serve are not for them, um, which is wonderful. And some of the folks that um, you know, we um could that may come our way are not for us either. Yeah. We don't want to work with the large brands. They would crush our system today. Um but I I so I think there's a there's a mutual respect there. And um we're starting to see more boutique agencies and more folks like like Paradox come along and I wish them well. And would love, you know, um, you know, the more that come about, that that's wonderful. Um, but I I think that there's definitely a need um in this space and it's been a tremendous journey. But I do believe from a challenger perspective, um, man, it's been a long time coming for these folks.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Yeah. You know, for you know, from my my side of things, I've never really worked with small brands. Um, you know, we've had some opportunities at former agencies that I've been on, I've been at, and you know, smaller agencies just didn't fit the model, um, as you you indicated earlier. So it's really interesting to me, that side of of the business. And, you know, talking to people like you who are on these in this boutique agency side of things that um support support these brands. And you know, you you have to you have to be scrappy, you have to be able to relate. There's so there's such a I think there is such a big need. And I do think that many of the big agencies are probably a little bit nervous about the boutique agencies and what they could ultimately do. Because I do see in in the opportunity with boutique agencies is to uh develop that side-by-side relationship that makes the partnership work to drive success. And to your point, success can look like a lot of different things. There always feels like there's some sort of wall between big agency and big brand, typically. Um but in the scenarios in my personal experience, and the scenarios where you've seen a little bit more of an evening of those two, those two players, the relationship was good and a lot of success occurred. But it's uh to me, it doesn't seem like it happens a whole lot. Now that's just my own personal experience. Somebody could have totally different experience. But I do think that with the intimacy in which you have to serve the brands that you serve requires a lot more support. Again, back to your 50, 30, 20 scenario that allows for deep relationships, buy-in for success in order to achieve those those results. And, you know, and and so um I see why, you know, uh agency like Paradox has an opportunity to be super successful and you know, um it's a very intimate relationship that we have with our clients.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

So it's a really great word that you that you said there. Um they have exposure to us and vice versa, um on a regular basis. Um and and more than just a it's more than just a transaction, like be we become friends and um, you know, it's it's I because I worked on the agency side in the past and the branding side, and it's it's very different. Yeah. It's very different. And it's cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

Yeah. So I think, you know, um we've we've kind of uncovered a lot of a lot of great stuff around Challenger brands and you know, appreciate your perspective. Like I said, I I don't have that same experience and exposure. So, you know, having you on and talk about all of these things and you know, the growing of of your own agency and your own story is absolutely uh awesome to to hear. So um

Challenger Brands We Love

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

we're gonna now we're gonna move on to our little closing segment, challenger brands we love. So this is our opportunity, and we'll we'll start with you for sure, to talk about a challenger brand that you'd like to talk about that um that you love for whatever reason, whatever reason, whatever you want to say that you love them, I you would like to hear that. So I'll let you go first.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Okay. So I it's a little bit of a shameless plug here, but one brand I genuinely love watching right now is Onyx um coffee.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

Onyx Coffee, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

Yes, because um cool brand.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

Very cool brands. Um, we just launched them in Walmart.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:19

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Correct. Yes. Um, they've managed to scale without losing their soul. And that is hard to do. And they didn't do it um because they had to. They didn't do it because someone told them to. Right. Right? They did it intentionally and very methodically and maniacally focused on keeping their ethos in check, their brand in check. And everything is intentional, the product quality, the design, the hospitality, the storytelling, the retail experience. Um now they have very little experience when it comes to retail, specifically with marketing, uh, with Walmart. But they understand that the the modern consumer isn't just looking for the the buying their product um at Walmart. Um, they're buying their identity and their experience, and they have built such a loyal following um in a category that is a commodity, right? Um, and they have created such an emotional connection um with their consumers, I think that is desirable. Yeah. And so I'm excited to see where this goes. Um, and I do believe that if there's one big lesson that I could take away from them to other challenger brands right now, is that clarity in which they have in craft and keeping it simple, that matters. Yep. Yeah. Um, and so especially in a world that's um drowning in generic content. Products, like they are very crystal clear and they are very tried and true to who they are. And they stick with it no matter what. And so I think that that is super cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Yeah. No, yeah. I mean, Onyx obviously is a well-known brand here in Northwest Arkansas, and they deliver an amazing product and an amazing experience. So definitely congrats to them with their launch at Walmart and extending their story into retail will be uh obviously a challenge. And so I I I I uh love to see how that plays out.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

Yes, me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

All right. So here's my choice. I don't know. When I thought about this from a challenger brand perspective, you always think, well, you know, the small guy. But in a way, it was a small guy. So I love a good origin story. So I chose liquid death. Okay. Are you familiar with liquid death? Um I love a good origin story. Um, you know, Mike uh Cesario, he talked about, you know, seeing bands on stage and they had you know monster energy drink cans, but they actually only had water in there because water bottles were basically not cool. Plus, they had sponsorship from Monster, and that was an idea that got him going. And I and I think, you know, he they he took a boring category like water, and it made it edgy and fun. Right. And I think you even see some of this type of ethos now coming to life with brands like uh Dude Wipes, Dr. Squatch, uh Black Rifle Coffee to a certain like the you're taking this, you're you're you're you're creating this kind of lifestyle type of experience and you're bringing it to retail. And I uh one of the things he said in in um in the article I read was the biggest challenge was to get people to pick up the can. Once they pick up the can, it's over. Right. So you want to drive that curiosity. So that's why they have the skull on the can. And when you look at it in a sea of other water products, it stands out. Right. Then they they they're like stepping, stepping up. They're not like going from zero to a hundred. They are seem very logical in their approach on how they're attacking retail. And they went from selling a hundred thousand dollars worth of product in a month to now they're a multi-billion dollar valued, you know, valued company. And it's with water, right? And it's so, it's so cool the way they built their uh built their brand. Um and so I love their messaging, you know, murder your thirst. Like the creates the creative side of this thing is is amazing. Uh, death the plastics that talks to their sustainability, it's right there in the middle of the can. So it's like they they're hitting the marks, right? When you think about brand building. And and I just love, I love their story.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

Yeah. I remember the first time I saw them at Expo West.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:04

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

And they had a massive coffin right in the middle of the show floor. And I think it was um maybe the first year that they had launched in retail, but I thought, oh my God, that is wild, right? Um, and very bold and dynamic. But I agree with you. Yeah, that's quite a quite a story.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:25

Yeah. And when, you know, one of the one of the things they said that stuck out to me was when they have like a brainstorm, they like start off with what is the absolute worst possible ideas we can come up with? And those are the ones that they figure out how to execute. And so that's that that's awesome. So, all right. Yeah, that

Founder Advice And Closing Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

was fun. We could probably, you know, do a bunch of different challenger brands and we could just talk about that for for days. But um we're gonna, we're actually gonna wrap up this episode of Retail Media Vibes. Alicia, thank you so much for being on with me uh today. Absolutely love the conversation. I love learning about you know you, learning about challenger brands, learning about Paradox. Um, but before we wrap up today, is there anything you'd like to share or plug before we go?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

Yeah, I think we're entering one of the most exciting eras uh for challenger brands, honestly. Um, consumers are craving brands that are more human-driven. Um, they're more intentional, they are more connected to their real life, just as you mentioned. Um, I think uh more emerging brands are having a big advantage because they're listening, they're paying attention. They're often closer to culture. Um, they're closer to the consumer, they're able to move faster than some of the legacy brands that are out there. My biggest encouragement to any founders that are out there in this space would just be don't try to be a legacy brand, right? Um, to be yourself, right? Clarity beats complexity.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:56

Oh, I like that. Hey, we should have got to that quote earlier. I like that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

Clarity beats complexity. I say that often to my team. Connection beats um scale for a long time. Um, and make sure that uh you think about how you can be scrappy um as much as possible, but actually build the strongest emotional relationship with your consumers on the inside, right? Like that is most critical. And think back to what you're truly trying to solve for them. Everything has to connect back to that, no matter what. And obviously, if anyone wants to connect or to learn more and talk all things retail, shopper marketing, um, challenger brands, commerce, whatever, right here.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

All right. Awesome. Check it up. All right.

How To Support The Show

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

So for everyone watching and listening, thanks for tuning in and spending a little time with us. And hope you enjoyed this episode. Uh, please like, share, comment, subscribe, all the good things across all of the different channels that we operate. Uh, send it to a friend and share retail media vibes with someone that you know, uh, maybe even someone you don't know. Um, maybe somebody's out there trying to build a challenger brand. Maybe this would be a great episode for them. So if you want to check out all of the episodes of Retail Media Vibes, you can go to retailmedia vibes.com. Thank you all so much for watching and listening. And as always, I promise to do better next time. B V out.