20. The Lasting Impact of Birth Trauma + Finding Healing with Leslie Thompson

I’m honored to welcome Leslie Thompson, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and perinatal therapist with a private practice in Liberty, MO, to the podcast! With more than a decade of experience supporting children and families, she specializes in helping women navigate the reproductive journey, as well as supporting parents in building stronger, more connected relationships with their children. 

Leslie also has advanced training in birth trauma and pregnancy, infant, and child loss. She brings both professional expertise + deeply personal lived experience to every family she serves.

In today’s conversation, Leslie and I are diving into her own experiences with traumatic C-sections, a NICU stay, pregnancy loss, and how those moments ultimately shaped both her healing journey + the work she does today. 

We also talk about the emotional impact birth trauma has on both parents, how fathers are often the “invisible parents” during this time, how EMDR can help parents process traumatic experiences, and more.

Ultimately, I hope this episode reminds you that your birth story MATTERS. Your experience deserves to be acknowledged, and yes, healing is possible. You don't have to carry the weight of your story alone, friend!

Episode Recap:

• Leslie's personal journey through birth trauma, C-sections + the NICU
• How traumatic birth experiences can shape the postpartum journey
• The grief of unmet expectations surrounding birth & parenthood
• Why dads experience birth trauma, too
• The impact of minimizing comments like "At least everyone is healthy"
• How Leslie's lived experiences shaped her work as a perinatal therapist
• What EMDR is + how it helps process birth trauma
• Common signs that unresolved birth trauma may still be affecting you
• What healing after birth trauma can look like
• Why your birth story deserves validation, support + specialized care

**Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy or mental health care. If you’re struggling or need support, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area, because you don’t have to go through it alone.

Links/Resources:

• Connect with Leslie on Instagram
• Check out Leslie’s website
• Follow on Instagram @tztherapy
• Check out my website

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi friends, welcome to Reproductively Speaking. I'm Karen Spiger, and every week we will explore the intersection of parenthood, purpose, and mental well-being for honest stories, expert insights, and practical tools for everyday life. Grab your coffee, take a deep breath, and let's get into today's episode. All right. Well, Leslie, I'm so excited to have you here today.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

How are you? How's your week been? Good, thank you. We are getting ready for mom duties this weekend with Cheer Comp. So of course, mom duties.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Um, everybody listening probably totally relates and understands. So awesome. Well, before we kind of get into the meat of today's episode, I would love it if you could just share a little bit about yourself as a therapist, as a mom, just whatever feels comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

So um I am a mom of three Earthside babies, uh, Jilly, Dax, and Chan. They are 10, 7, and 4. And I have two angel babies that I had my first pregnancy and then right before my third. So I have, as a mom, my one daughter and two little boys. And that is wild. Two little boys are crazy. I feel that. Um, and my daughter is the ultimate princess. So, like I said, we're going to tear comp this weekend. And I would say, really, my experiences with birth and my c-sections, all three of my kids were born via C-sections, and I had two traumatic births, my first and my last. And I think those experiences are what really have shaped me as a therapist. I'm a private practice therapist in Liberty, Missouri, and I specialize in perineatle with an emphasis on traumatic births and loss. And part of that is because of my lived experience and just knowing what I didn't have.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Not because nobody gave it to me, but because I didn't really seek it out. And so that's shaped my practice and just kind of my mission to help moms that have had this experience as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, for sure. Well, I know that your clients are so lucky to have you. And, you know, I think whenever we talk about trauma, like just trauma in general, right? Like trauma is a very subjective experience because what might be traumatic to one person might not be to another. But when you think about your experiences in general, what about those experiences made it traumatic for you? Like, what did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

So with my first, I was induced because I had choliostasis. And, you know, you don't know what you're walking into when you go to get induced. And I went in at 5:30 at night and got the little foley bulb and then started Potosin the next morning at like eight. And then she wasn't born until the following morning at 2 14. And all that whole day I'd been like just stuck at a two and a three. And so I'm like, I this is not how it's supposed to go. That part wasn't traumatic, but what happened, like, they let me go all day long, and then it was like, now it's time to go have a C-section because your baby's heart rate is doing funny things, and your blood pressure is doing funny things. And so we're going right now. And they basically like gave me this clipboard, sign, sign, sign, wake my husband up, put these on, we go. And it was like eerie quiet on the floor. There were like random nurses at the station and then at the elevator. And I was just like, oh, hello, that's me going to have a c-section. Um, it was not an emergency c-section. Like, neither my daughter or I were like in a life compromising position, but it was like, we're gonna go. So none scheduled one. But what ended up happening that was really traumatic for me is being in the OR and not really knowing what to expect. I had an epidural all day and couldn't feel my legs, anyways. And then I just kind of panicked. Um, I'm kind of an anxious girly at baseline. And so when I'm laying on this table and I can't move my body, and they're like, we're gonna check and make sure you're still numb, and they poked me and I could feel it. And so then I just like freaked out. And they couldn't get me calmed down. So then it was like, okay, well, we're gonna give you some medicine to make you feel better. And then it was like straight out of Gray's Anatomy. I was just swimming the ceiling, not there. The only thing I really remember from my C-section is hearing my husband come in and he said, Is she okay? And they said, Yep, she's fine. She was just a little worked up, so you were out there a little bit longer. She's gonna be a little sleepy and like might not talk to you. I remember them saying that.

unknown 4:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

And then I remember him saying, like, why are her eyes shaking like that? Because I guess I was having some nystagmus from the medicine. Have my baby, don't remember anything after that. Go back to recovery. I have this very vivid memory of my husband, like I kind of like came to my husband's holding the baby across the recovery room. And then next thing I know, I'm nursing my baby. And after that, it was really like, but I'm okay. I thought it was my fault that it went that way because I panicked, right? And so it wasn't until I literally had my second son a, we were planning a V back, but I got pancreatitis. And so I had to have a baby right then and there. So they were like, all right, C-section for you again. And I was like, shoot. It was so much different. It was an unscheduled C-section, but it was much more controlled. There wasn't, I mean, there was urgency, but not like we got to get you in there now. And I was just laying there, and I just remember telling the doctor over and over and over, like, this is so different than my first time. This is like the most healing experience. And mind you, like they, I don't have a clear drape. I got the blue drape. I'm looking up. The ceiling has clouds. My husband's right here, and I just keep saying, like, thank you so much. This is so healing. And my husband like pat my head and he was like, I think they get it. But like it was so wildly different. And that's when I really realized, like, oh, what happened with my first was not normal. Like, yeah, I made such a big deal to the anesthesiologist before my second. Like, I don't want what happened last time to happen again. And they were like, oh, well, it won't, it won't. And it wasn't even remotely close. It was so much better. And so I think it was really after I had that normal experience that I was like, that was traumatic.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

And then I think that's when like postpartum anxiety really took off from me. Was trying to make sense of that after the fact.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that like we probably don't even realize it. But like from a very young age, if we are a woman or a person who wants to have a family and have babies, we sort of have like this reproductive life story in our heads of like how it's going to be, right? Like when we have a baby and we watch movies and it's so beautiful and they just hand the baby to us and all of these things. And a lot of like what I was thinking when I was listening to you share your story was like, there's so much grief there for that, for that reproductive life story that you had been telling yourself for so long of like how the first birth experience was going to go. And so, yeah, it really would feel like it was right back in your face whenever you have an experience that's so drastically different. And my guess is like you didn't really put two and two together until you had that different experience. So there was not probably any like processing or identifying of like your first experience, like going away or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

No, because I, you know, I thought that was it was my fault. And my baby was healthy and I was healthy, and so it was like, oops, shouldn't have panicked kind of thing. Yeah. Um, until I had my second, and then I was like, I don't actually know that that was my fault.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then with your third, so then you had a third C-section too, but that even that birth experience was different. Can you share like a little bit about that experience?

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah. So I made it my mission after Dox's birth, he's the second one, was so like beautiful. When I got pregnant with Chandler, I was like, this is we're gonna be different this time. I worked out, I had the healthiest pregnancy ever until I didn't. And I had a partial abruption and was put on bed rest. That was really, really hard for me because I had been like, well, I said, you know, I thought my postpartum anxiety took off after my second and never got treated for that either. Um, and so then, you know, not being able to work out, which was like my primary coping skill or run or anything, that was really hard. And so then I was on bed rest. Well, when I had the first episode of bleeding, I was in the hospital for I think 48 hours or something like that, a couple days. Um, and I had the steroid shots. And that alone was kind of traumatic, like, oh no, something bad could happen and he could be born really early. But he, I got both doses. It was fine. Um, we leave and then I'm on bed rest for a few weeks. I went back at my 36-week appointment. And that morning I'd had more bleeding, and they said, Well, since you have an appointment, just come in. And I remember the stenographer like taking a really, really, really long time. She's just like, I'm just gonna go talk to the doctor. Uh, you can get dressed and we'll take you to the room. And so then I go and I see her talking to my doctor, and I'm walking by, and I was like, that doesn't seem good. And it was like, Yep, we need to send you over for a C-section. And I was like, like, can I go home and get my stuff? And they were like, no, go right now. And that was, it was scary, but it was also like, I've been here before. He's already got those steroid shots, like, it's gonna be fine. So I go over, I'm in triage, they get me all ready. And I just remember right before they wheeled me over, saying to the doctor, Do I need to be worried about my baby since he's only 36 weeks, but he already had the steroid shot. Mm-hmm. And I don't know, I hadn't thought at all. I was just like, dang it, here we go. Second time I've got kids at home, I had to call my mom, like, I'm gonna need you to get in the car and drive three hours to be with the kids, you know, unplanned kind of thing. And it hadn't crossed my mind until we're getting ready. And she said, and the doctor said to me, like, Well, we gave that medicine and we hope that it works, but we're gonna have the team in there so that just in case he's well taken care of, and I get into the OR and after like the super healing experience with Dax, there's like minimal people in there. We get in there and there's a bazillion people. There's multiple doctors for me, there's the whole NICU team for him, and the sweet anesthesiologist. He was just like talking and talking to me and calming me down. And of course, when he was born, he did not breathe, he had to have all the things, and then they basically took him. Um, they put him on my face for a hot second and then took him to the NICU. And I think that moment for me was like, I thought we were gonna be okay, and we actually weren't. Yeah. And then I was alone, because of course I made my husband go with the baby. So I was alone in the OR and just not knowing about my baby, and then I can't go straight up there and you know, it I think again feeling like, man, I tried so hard. And it still ended up this way. And then my son was in the NICU for a whole week. So I think that birth had its own like separate trauma from like the actual birth experience.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Yeah. And the separation aspect from the baby, but also like from your partner, I feel like is one thing that I feel maybe we don't like acknowledge or talk about enough. And I feel like you were in this training. I feel like you were in this training where this was said, but it was the training with Dan Singley, and he was talking about dads and their experience, right? And one of the things that I remember him saying is like oftentimes dads feel like the invisible parent, anyways, because you know, all the focus is on mom and baby, rightfully so. But for dads, there's so much that's out of their control. They're sort of just like the innocent bystanders. And, you know, for a lot of dads and situations like that, but even in like medically normal birth experiences, I still have heard from even dads in my office, like that was kind of traumatic for me to like see my partner in pain, or to have to be separated and go with a baby and like feel like I have to choose somebody which one's more important or like who I want to be with. And so I can only imagine that that was probably your husband's experience too. And I'm wondering, like, is that something that you guys talked about, or did he share with you, or what was that?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah, so we didn't talk up honestly about it until after like the NICU because he This is funny. We were in the NICU with my son, and my husband had had like a vasectomy consult because we said after three we were gonna be done. And we're in the NICU, and he's like, I'd like, I'd like to schedule that procedure now. Thank you. And I was like, What do you mean? And he was like, We've got machines all around us sweeping. And he goes, Are you kidding me? Like, I need to explain. Yeah. So after we went home and he had like, he was like, I never want to go through that again. And he said, you know, Les, Jilly's birth was really scary for me because one minute I'm asleep on the couch, and then I'm in a separate area putting on this weird little gown thingy, and then I'm out there for a long time because I couldn't come in, and then they said you were fine, but you didn't look fine. Yeah. But our baby was fine, and then you were fine afterwards. He said that was one thing. But with Chan to leave you so upset in the OR, I think he would have chosen to stay with me. Um, my husband is just, he's like a saint, gold stark, golden retriever. He's the best person in the world. Um, he would have stayed with me, but I said no go with him. Mm-hmm. And he said, you know, when we were talking, like, they asked you all the questions for Jilly and Dax. Like, even after the C-section with Jilly, like once I was fine, I was fine. It was like I made the decisions. Nobody asked him. Yeah. But then they're, you know, talking to him about how your wife's not going to be able to come up here for a few hours and here's what we need to do. And he said, I'm his dad and can absolutely make these decisions, but it just felt so wrong to not have you there. And I couldn't physically be in two places at once. And he said the hardest thing was knowing that I was in recovery for, I don't remember if it's one or two hours anymore, but I was there all by myself in just like this curtained off area, listening to all the other moms nurse their baby, and I'm like all by myself. Yeah. Um, he said that was really, really hard. And then the number of times that Chandler had to be poked just before I ever even got up there, was he said, really hard to see. Yeah. And he said he went from like being the support person to being the primary person in the room. Yeah. And then not only did he have to make decisions for the baby, it was at the hospital that I birthed at, I was on a completely different floor and the Nikki was upstairs. And so he was like, I don't know how to be in two places at once. I need to know that you're okay, but you won't let me leave this baby. And so he said that that was really, really awful for him and that he was not going to go through it again, which is why he had his vasectomy literally two and a half months after our son was born.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah. He said, Enough of that. I am not thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I'm gonna make an assumption, but like, correct me if I'm wrong, because of like this like reproductive life story that we tell ourselves, right? And even if you have had previous experiences where things went unplanned, I don't feel like very like we don't want to plan for worst case scenario. So like the conversation of like if the baby goes to the NICU, I want you to go with him, I'm gonna guess like that probably didn't happen beforehand, like before delivery.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Ever.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah. No, not ever.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Because I truly thought that there that wasn't gonna happen. I already have the shot. Yeah. And one of the things that I had said too is, you know, after things several months later, I said, you know, I'm just like now realizing this because I've only ever had C-sections. My husband never one time got to cut the cord. And he was like, I didn't even thought of that. Um, because then it just like that like became our normal, right? But that is something that as we're talking about, like our reproductive story. I wanted to have the beautiful vaginal birth where the husband cuts the cord and the baby's on my chest right away. Like, I only got to hold one of my babies right after he came out. I didn't get to hold Julia or Chandler. And so, you know, he didn't. There's so much that I feel like I grieve of my story. And I think sometimes our husbands are like, well, my story doesn't matter because it's really what she wants because she's the one going through it. Like his story matters too. And that was something that he was like, man, I didn't get to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems so little, but it's big for him.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

It but it is big, yeah. Because, like, you know, like I had said, they are a little bit of the invisible parent through the process of reproduction, right? Like, yes, they are an important piece of it, but like once we become pregnant, like when we go to our OB appointments, you know, the doctor is mainly looking at us and asking us questions about how we're doing and how we're feeling. And dads are very rarely looped into that conversation. So yeah, I can imagine doing some of that reflection. There was probably some like aha moments for him too, and his own grief of his own story or hopes for what that would look like for him as well. Yes. Yeah. I feel like one thing uh we hear often, you probably hear this. Um, and uh, maybe Cher, if you did hear this, like after your birth experience, but was okay, so things didn't go as planned, right? Like during the birth process, but then sometimes we hear these well-meaning uh statements from people, right? Like, well, at least the baby's healthy, or at least you're both alive. Um, so I'm curious, did you encounter any of that like through any of your experiences?

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Oh many. Like, I feel like we're the generation that's trying to break that like toxic positivity, but it's still all around us, and people don't know how to sit in that uncomfortable. So even our generation like falls back into like, yeah, but you're both healthy, so it's okay, right? Like I mean, we are both healthy, yes. And no, I'm not okay.

unknown 19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

You know, we heard it around Jillies because I just kept saying, like, I even remember talking to my OP, like, that was so scary. Yeah, but we got you all taken care of. You were like you are so fine. And you look at that beautiful baby, right? And I was like, okay, so I like minimized that. But uh really with Chandler, um, because I would say, you know, here we are. Um I'm already a therapist, not specializing in perinatal, I should say, once I had Chandler. And uh my anxiety is untreated at this point. I've not been willing to say I have that's part of anxiety or depression. Uh well, we just like skyrocketed and we went off the charts after that. Um, because being in the NICU, one I'd obviously never been with my other kids, but you know, there's these goals that your baby has to meet. And I was like, I don't know how to make him meet those. Um, and doing all that I could while also like recovering from my C-section. And so in the NICU, it was really hard. And it was, you know, people checking in were like, How is everything going? How is everything going? Like, okay, but like when do you get to come home? And I know that a lot of women, when they get discharged, they go home and then they come back up to the hospital. And I think because I was so anxious, that was not an option for me. So several, and I don't want that, like for anyone to hear that as like judgment. I think I was absolutely ridiculous. I should have gone home and slept in my bed when I was recovering from my C-section, but no, I slept on a really hard couch. Um, but I just wasn't willing to leave him because I felt like if we want to meet these goals, there's no way for him to do it without me being here. Mm-hmm. And even they would say, like, your baby's fine, you can go home. Your baby's fine, you can go home. And I was like, if my baby is fine, why is he in that little incubator and why can't I hold him?

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yeah. And also it's so unnatural for us to be separated from our babies when they are just born. Like, and so to me, like, you know, I am very thankful that I didn't have a child that had to be sent to the NICU, but I can't imagine two feeling comfortable and wanting to leave them because that's not what we're supposed to do. We're not supposed to leave our babies.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

No. No, which is why I I'd never wanted my husband to leave him if I couldn't be up there. And then afterwards, I truly did not leave the hospital um at all the entire time we were there. But then I remember like getting close to discharge, and part of the goals was like he has to maintain his oxygen and his heart rate and all of this. And So he was having these D sats at night when he was sleeping. And the machines would go off. And they always said, Don't touch him, don't touch him. We want him to get through these on his own. And man, they were terrifying as you're like watching things like bottom out. And I got so scared that I remember asking the neonatologist when she came in and I said, Should I like, what are you going to send me home on? Or should I get something that like tracks his heart rate and oxygen at night? And she was like, Oh, no, no, no, don't absolutely don't do that. No, we won't send you home with anything but a healthy baby. So he's going to be completely fine when we send you home. And you don't need any of that because honestly, most babies have some little D sets at night, and that's okay. But like because he's in here and on the machines, he can't have them before he goes home. And I was like, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

So how disorienting. Like you're telling me this that it's going to be okay. And then I'm sitting here and I'm watching a whole different reality that you're telling me. But I'm supposed to just like take your word for it that it's going to be okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

And then as soon as he stops doing it for one night and I get to go home, it means he's never going to do it again, but he might do it again. But like it'll be fine because all babies do that and he'll get himself out of it. Yeah. What? So that was really like when we discharged, they said we are sending you home. And I was like, Are you sure? And she was like, Well, do you not want to go home? And I was like, No, I want to go home. I want to go home. I have not seen my other babies in a week now. And I said, I want to go home, but I want to make sure he's okay. And it was, she's again said to me, We will not send you home with an unhealthy baby. Yeah. And so then getting home, it's like, I have a healthy baby. I have a healthy baby. But I just spent a whole week in the Nikki with him. And even people then were like, you know, if I was anxious, um, he was born in September, so coming up on like flu in sixth season. And so yeah, I was like, please wash your hands. And if you I don't care if you think it's allergies, no, you're is not coming near my baby. Yeah. Yeah. And because I was so scared. And even now he he's four, that still comes up for me when he gets sick. Um, he's had croup, he's anything respiratory for him. Yeah, I panic a little bit. Now I'm in therapy and I am addressing all of this. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that when he is sick and I'm back to him and the NICU not being able to breathe, watching his little belly. I'm doing that now as he's four, and I'm like, well, that's real familiar. Mm-hmm. But I still keep hearing like, all kids get sick, all kids get sick. He's fine, he's fine, right? Yeah. And I know, I know that, but it does feel really invalidating sometimes to my experience of what he wasn't. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

And I'm still scared from it. Yeah, for sure. And I think that makes total logical sense why you would be, right? Again, just like a very disorient disorienting experience for you to be watching with your own eyes, right? Like, am I not trusting my senses? But I'm seeing him de stat and I'm seeing all these machines go off. But like, then I'm just supposed to go home without all of this, alerting me if something's happening, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that would be very difficult. So how had how do you think like these experiences, like your own personal experiences? You had mentioned, like, whenever Chan was born, you had not already been specialized in perinatal mental health.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Not to any degree that I am now. Yeah. You know, I think when he was born, I'd already taken maybe the first training, potentially, but I was not, I was primarily doing PCIT at that time. Okay. After he was born, that's when it was like, okay, no, I need to do more. And I can't remember. It might have even been before he was born. I might have met with Mika Cinemano to say, like, tell me what to do. Yeah. How do I be you and tell me what to do? I think I was pregnant when that happened. Um, but then even after he was born, for sure, that's really what took my, I guess, niche of therapy from individuals and kids to moms and PCIT.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

And I still do PCIT. And I do PCIT because that was like my first love. Um, and it's working with parents.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

And can you tell the listeners what? Yeah, tell tell the listeners what PCIT is in case. I'm just like, I know what it is.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

PCIT is um parent-child interaction therapy. So working with parents and their kids when kids are two through seven, struggling with disruptive behaviors. That could be tantrums, just not listening, aggression. You know, there's 1,700 parenting books out there. And I always say that the parents that end up in my office are the ones that are like, well, I've read this, this, this, and I still don't know what to do. Help me. Help me. And I love that. It's one of my favorite things. But one thing before I became specialized in perinatal, I was noticing that a lot of parents that I was working with with PCIT, that their kids had either been in the NICU, a premi, or there was some sort of traumatic birth, and mom and dad had untreated postpartum depression and anxiety. And I was like, well, and I really wish that I had started like my own research at that time because I think that there is something truly to speak to that. And so that's where like I'm able to help them now in PCIT and how to help with their kiddo. But it was like, now I want to know more. So that's when I really, really like hunkered down, specialized in perinatal, took all of the trainings. And something that was really important to me was EMDR. I wish that I had had EMDR after my first birth, or at least before I had my third. Because a lot of what happened in Julie's, though the experience was completely different. Those same similar like feelings came right back. Yeah. And so then it's like I'm trying to navigate this birth and my baby in the NICU, but I've got old stuff coming in. And so that's really something that is important for me and that I have worked really hard on in specializing and helping my clients through is that we can turn down the heat. We don't need all this old stuff to come in and escalate the present. Now it's there because it happened. Like we're not saying it didn't happen to you, but we we don't need that heat today because we have our own heat to deal with. And so that's really like Chan's worth, I think really is where I took off and it has shaped my experience as a perinatal therapist. And one thing that I try to do with all of my clients like you had loss and now we're pregnant again. We are reprocessing loss with EMDR before that baby gets here because they've already experienced the worst thing of their life. Yeah. And if we can turn down the heat a tiny bit so they don't have to re-experience that and a moment that is not that again, I want to do it. And so I think my own traumatic experiences have absolutely shaped my practice.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah. I'm trying to think if in previous episodes I have talked with anybody or just by myself with EMDR. And I don't think I have. Could you just give like what's like a maybe like how do you describe EMDR, maybe even to your clients?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah. So EMDR, eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing, right? Like we all know it from that is really like what people can relate it to the most. And I always hear you like, yeah, but my trauma's like not anything like that. It doesn't matter. EMDR is great for that, for really anything. And so we reprocess traumatic memories. And for me, and I've said it on here, you know, with Julie's birth, it felt so much like it was my fault. I panicked, it was my fault. And I logically, no, that's not true. Um, but emotionally, I still felt it very deeply. So EMDR is something where we would reprocess that memory, not change it because it happened, right? But we're reprocessing out that piece of like, it's my fault, because that doesn't need to be attached there. And, you know, really reprocessing it in a way that I can carry it with me. And it's not something that gets lit up when I have something else happen. When Chandler's birth, when I went on bed rest for him, it was it was my fault because I'd been working out and I'd never done that before. So that's where like the two like associated memory networks got connected. And EMDR, what I should have done and what a therapist would have done with me is kind of cut that it's my fault out of Jilly's so that then when I had my experience with Chandler, maybe it was still it's my fault, but then it wasn't intermingled with the memory of Jilly's birth. I don't know if that was a I used my own example to try to explain that. I don't know if that was actually really good. No, that was good. That was good. Hopefully they get it.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Okay, so as a therapist who utilizes EMDR and works a lot with people who have had, you know, birth trauma, NICU experiences, loss, what do you like? What might be some signs or what are you looking for in the parents that you work with that might indicate that some of this is going on and maybe EMDR would be beneficial?

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Man, I would honestly say that I can make a case for EMDR in any client that comes in. It's kind of the foundation of my practice. If we're not doing actual reprocessing in session, we're certainly resourcing and gathering history because I'm listening for all the themes. Um, and so it really is my one of my biggest things that I always jump on is when people say, it's like that feeling that like, I know it's not true, but I feel this way. And I'm like, boom, we're doing an EMDR. Yeah. Say that again. I'm gonna write it down. That's your negative cognition that I'm gonna go with, right? Yeah. Um, so I'm really looking for those like, I can put myself back there. I can feel it all over again. It's like I'm there, or I know that's not true, but I feel this way, or I'm scared this is gonna happen again. Those are kind of like the high notes for me when someone says that. That I'm like, let me jump on my EMDR soapbox.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah. Do you find, because I feel like as humans, we're pretty good at minimizing our own experiences, but what do you see like in society maybe that minimizes these types of like traumatic birth experiences?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Oh, the comparison game all the time. Like your baby is home, and yeah, okay, so you swam the ceiling like the I don't know if I said this earlier, but it was literally like Gray's Anatomy, the episode where Derek Shepard had, like he's just like, get me a CT and he's like swimming the ceiling. And the kid, that was me, right? Like, yeah, okay, that happened to you, but like you lived and your baby lived. Um, what about this person that actually like did lose their baby because of X, Y, and Z? And so it's the comparison game. My trauma's worse than your trauma. Yeah. And when I have clients in my office that say, like, but Leslie, like, my baby is healthy, or you know, there are people that have had their babies die, or that have lost a husband or another child, and I just feel like I shouldn't be this upset. It's those messages from society that like only the big and the bad are worth talking about. And we can't like put trauma on a scale of one to 10 that's the same for everybody across the board. Right. And I tell my clients, it doesn't, it doesn't matter that you feel like your trauma is a 10, but that might be a two to somebody who has just lived through trauma their whole life. I'm not working with their nervous system. I'm working with your nervous system. Yeah. And so I think it's the message from society is that like if you're okay and you have things to be grateful for, you shouldn't be traumatized.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Yeah. No thanks. I'll leave that with you. Um, so what do you think like parents need to hear the most after they have these types of experiences?

SPEAKER_00 34:26

That their experience is truly their experience. And if it doesn't feel good to you, then you are so worthy and you deserve a place to process and acknowledge what happened to you. And you don't need to compare to other people. You know, I think that there's I mean, sometimes I feel like my birth trauma, like somebody listening to the story could say, like, that I can hear that's where it went bad for her. But I work with women all the time that, you know, I felt like my birth was traumatic simply because they broke my water without telling me that my they were gonna break my water. Yeah, absolutely that's traumatic. You had your voice and your choice taken away from you and consent, right? And so anything that feels traumatic to them, it's traumatic. And nobody gets to tell you that it's not.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Yeah, yeah. So we, you know, as therapists, we talk a lot about healing, right? And we know healing is not linear and we know that it too, like trauma, doesn't look the same for everybody. But like when we think about these types of experiences, what maybe do we look for when we look for healing? What does it look like?

SPEAKER_00 35:41

I think being able to acknowledge the past and what has happened to you. We want to acknowledge it, right? And we want it, we want to allow it to be a part of us, but not a part that controls us. Yeah. You know, one of my things specifically for me, healing looks like being able to not hear the NICU machine beeping when Chandler coughs or, you know, has the creepy when he starts barking like a seal, right? Yeah. You know, I want to be able to say this moment is scary. And I did have a NICU experience, but that's not happening right now. And so I think healing is carrying what happened to you without it reigniting every time something similar happens.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah. If someone is listening right now and they're realizing that maybe their birth was traumatic, what would you like them to know?

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Ugh my gosh. That you are worthy of telling your story and you are worthy of getting support and finding a way to process that story that we're not gonna change it because the facts are the facts, but it doesn't need to carry that high heat, heavy energy all day, every day. I'm gonna say that. But then it's so important to find if you are ready to share your story and you want healing, that you find a perinatal therapist, somebody who is trained in birth trauma and just working with women that are postpartum, because our brains are different. And it is a hill that I will die on in a whole other podcast that I think that uh postpartum women should only see therapists that truly are specialized and trained in perinatal.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Yeah. I think um I'll hold you to that, and I think we can do another episode all about that in the future because I that is also a hill that you will find me on as well. So yeah. Well, thank you so much just for being vulnerable and sharing your story with everybody. And I'm so glad that your community has you to help them through their processing. So thanks so much. Thank you. Hey, thanks for being here and spending some time with me on Reproductively Speaking. I hope today's conversation left you feeling a little more seen, supported, and maybe even inspired. If it did, share this episode with a friend who might need it. And don't forget to subscribe or leave a review. It truly makes a difference. Until next time, take care of your mind, your relationship, and yourself. You got this.