The Guilt Gap: Motherhood, Work, and Everything In Between

Working from home was supposed to make life easier—but for many moms, it’s layered with guilt. In this episode, I sit down with Avital, founder of “Hi Fam,” to unpack the emotional weight so many mothers carry while juggling work and home under one roof.

With a rare blend of clarity and compassion, Avital helps us reassess where that guilt comes from, why it lingers, and how to move through it without losing ourselves in the process. This is an honest, grounding conversation about redefining balance, softening expectations, and finding a way forward that actually works for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Alright, welcome, welcome. And if you work from home, this podcast is for you. I'm sure you felt like your home is slowly turning into your office, or your office is invading your home, and you're not alone. I'm Shana, and I've spent years designing spaces that help people live and work better. And it's really all about finding that balance under one roof. This episode is actually about guilt. It's the one that many of us carry quietly but feel very deeply. And it's not just any guilt, it's that very specific, layered, ever-present guilt of working from home, motherhood. The kind that creeps in when you're answering emails with one hand and wiping a nose with another, the kind that whispers you're never quite doing enough at work or home or anywhere in between. So instead of skimming the surface, we are going there, and I could not think of a better person to have this conversation with than Avi Kale. So if you today I'm joined by Avi Tal, the founder of HiFam, a true force in the parenting space. She's known for her refreshingly honest group approach, her deep wisdom, and her ability to say the things that most people are thinking but don't quite have the courage to voice. No fluff, no sugar coating, just real, grounded and practical guidance that actually lands in real life. Avi Tal brings this rare combination of clarity and compassion. She understands the emotional load parents carry, especially mothers navigating the blurred boundaries of work and home. So if you've ever felt torn, stretched, or constantly like you're falling short, this episode is for you. Let's get into it. Hi everything. So happy you're here. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

And what a lovely intro. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I've really been following your work for years, and I love the way that you approach real life issues. And we're gonna dive straight in. I keep hearing from different mothers about this guilt that they feel working from home. Like they're home, but they're working, and they're also expecting so much from themselves. And I wanted to ask you, as the professional in this field, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Um so I think you know, feelings of guilt can come from different places, but ultimately at the end of the day, they come down to a mismatch between our expectations of ourselves and our performance in the end. And then you might want to ask yourself, okay, where do those expectations come from? Are the expectations the problem, or is the performance the problem? Why is there a mismatch? Because if I expect myself to be, you know, productive to level whatever, say eight, and I'm productive to level four every day, I keep feeling like I'm falling short, and then I feel guilty. Guilty at work, guilty as a mother, whichever area I'm feeling that I'm falling short, or more likely both. Um, and then I think it's a really really like taking stock and understanding, okay, which one or could it be both of those parameters is off? Are my expectations too high, or is my performance too low, or uh or both, and trying to inch closer those two so that we can actually release that feeling of guilt.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Right. Where do you think that this gap comes from? And how would you advise people who are feeling this gap and this guilt, which is it's really great how you uh you know structured it? It's it's the expectations or the performance. How do you think that they can define what it is for them?

SPEAKER_01 3:25

So I think it comes from different places for different people, right? It could come from a larger cultural, social message around what's expected, what success looks like, what a day should entail, what women should do, what mothers should do, right? We could get that from our parents, from movies, from our husband, from anywhere, anywhere, right? It could be an internal kind of number that you've set for yourself of what it's what success is supposed to be. And often we get really anchored to an unrealistic number. Um, you know, I remember when I was a kid hearing my uncle say that people don't know how long it takes them to get ready in the morning. And if if it once took you 15 minutes to get out the door, you think it takes you 15 minutes to get out the door. But really, maybe usually it actually takes half an hour because normally you actually want to eat and maybe you want to shower, and and so then if you're anchored to 15 minutes, you're always feeling rushed and running late. And what it takes is a conscious effort to re-evaluate the realistic amount of time it takes, so that maybe you have to wake up 15 minutes earlier so you have that full amount of time and you're not rushed out the door. I think many of us have one really productive day or period in our life, or when we were teenagers or not mothers, or in a different job, we might anchor ourselves to an unrealistic uh, you know, vision uh or number, whatever that is, right? Of what it should be like. Um we were super present with our children that day. We didn't yell at bedtime, we got three loads of laundry done, and we worked out, and we sent 20 emails, and we feel like wow, I'm a powerhouse. And then another day, maybe your hormonal cycle is different, or the stress levels are different, or you heard really bad news that morning, or you just have much harder things to deal with and you're tired, and that's enough to throw off your productivity levels or your parenting levels, and so it comes from lots of different places, but I think just you know, a little bit like when people enter into some kind of like fitness methodology or nutrition plan, they often spend a week or two just observing what's going on and like just taking stock and saying, wait, actually, realistically, I'm not out the door in 15 minutes, I'm out the door in half an hour, so let's readjust that number. And I'm not suggesting I'm not a a tracker, like I don't like tracking calories, I don't like tracking my work, I don't like tracking anything, but I think just getting to know yourself a little bit better and more honestly and a bit more objectively and with and like quietening the voices of judgment so that you can just see, okay, actually the truth is I could get two to three hours at my desk. That's what's reasonable and real. You know, and that when you learn yourself and your day a little bit better, you can start to you can start to evaluate more honestly.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Wow. So I really like this idea of the I the concept of overestimating what we can do in one day, and the idea that we need to observe, stop and observe, that's basically what your maybe even the first part is. We can stop, observe, and see how how much we can actually get done as opposed to what it is or what kind of unhealthy standard we've set for ourselves, correct? Absolutely. And in in all of that, I think there's also a part about choices, about making a choice because when the guilt comes in, we have to choose to do what with it. It comes in and let's say we've we've set a certain standard for ourselves, and then this seeping guilt of oh, you know, I should really get dinner started, or I should cut up some vegetables for my children when they get home, and the laundry needs to be done. So, where where can people decide to put something like that? How does it work? Like, it's one thing of like observing and setting standards, and the next part is okay, now what? Like, once we've said it, there's still those feelings.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah. So it's interesting what we're supposed to do with feelings in the modern world. There's a lot of talk about feeling your feelings and honoring your feelings and expressing your feelings and following your feelings. And I'm not super into that. I think there are certain feelings like worry. Uh I like that you're not super into that, by the way. Okay, great. So I mean I think that I think all feelings are useful, and I think it's not a good idea to suppress your feelings ever, to just be like, I don't feel that, and just like muscle your way through. Because white knuckling only gets you so far, willpower does seem to be a little bit finite as far as what we know in the research. And um, and also I do think that suppressed feelings when we just deny what we're feeling and and don't look at it and don't process it, it ends up biting you in the butt later, coming out in you know, a worse way, in a less controlled way. However, just because you feel guilty or worry or anxiety or fear or anger, I I think that the idea is not to wallow in that feeling or to let that feeling dictate your life. I see it more like from the CBT world, you might say, like an alarm bell going off, you know, or a light that lights up in your car to tell you, by the way, gas is low, right? The the idea of that alarm bell going off in your car is not to now, you know, veer off the road and completely change your route. The idea is not to panic or stress, the idea is not to wallow, oh my god, I don't have gas, it's so terrible. Look at me, I have no gas. How do I get to this place in my life? Right, it's not. I think often the advice of following your feelings or honouring your feelings or expressing your feelings takes you a little bit there. Like, and that's not very useful. But the alarm bell is useful. So noticing the warning light, the signal that you're low on gas is an indication that over the next, you know, hour or so you should find a gas station. You don't have to stress about it and you shouldn't put yourself in danger. Um, and yes, if you ignore it, things get worse. Um, and if you heed it, uh, things get better and you can solve those problems. And I think with guilt, for me at least, when it comes to productivity or motherhood, it's typically very similar to a warning light in my car, in that it's indicating to me, by the way, you're not paying enough attention here. By the way, you could try harder here, by the way, you should be a little bit more organized with that. And if I feel guilty that I've underperformed in one of these areas, then I think it's a great indicator that maybe I have. It's possible. It's possible also that I have a faulty light, right? In the car, you do sometimes find, wait, I'm filling up gas and the light is still showing, now I have to fix the light. But typically it's gonna be, and that comes back to our first point, where it's either the expectation or the performance. So if it's not the expectation, if it if the if the expectation is fair, if it's reasonable for me to expect that I cut up veggies for my kids when they come home, and I'm not doing it, then okay, why is that? And I think wallowing in the guilt is super useless. It's a bit like sitting in a rocking chair where you feel the motion of going somewhere, but you're actually not moving forward. So you notice, you know what? I'm falling short of my standards. I did want to be the type of mom who cuts up veggies. What can I do tomorrow? I need to end work five minutes earlier, I need to cut the veggies at 8 a.m. instead of at 2 p.m. because I'll be fresher then. Whatever. You know, then we can get into like creative problem-solving mode. Um, but I I don't think the modern uh parenting wisdom of you shouldn't ever feel any guilt is very useful. Guilt is a useful emotion, it's not the only emotional, it's not like the be all and end all, but it's not a bad thing. Like it's okay to feel a bit guilty about something, it's usually an indicator that you're falling short of your own standards. Cool, so let's you know either fix the standards or fix the performance.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Right. And then there's also a certain kind of level of expectation, and something that you mention a lot in your um in your work is what are what are the expectations of our children from us and our families from us, and how can we set those expectations in a better way? Because then we could also, if we see that we're falling short, instead of you know saying I'm a failure, then it's just setting a different kind of expectation.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

The real gift to our children and to ourselves is clarity. I don't really care how people organize their days. I I don't care if you have a traditional marriage or an egalitarian marriage. I don't care if you work from home or you're a stay-at-home mom or your boss babe outside the home. I think there are many different viable ways of raising a family well. But I think it should be defined and it should be clear and it should be owned. Like you should say, this is what we're doing. You know, I work from home and so my kids know that I work from home and I'm unapologetic if the door is closed and you are not allowed to disturb me right now because I'm in a meeting. And I don't have I don't struggle with guilt around that because I'm like, look, this is the decision I've made, this is how I support my family, I put bread on the on the table, it's important, and you can absolutely handle yourself for the next 45 minutes without disrupting me. And I tell my kids, unless someone's bleeding or unless there's a fire, don't come here. I don't want to hear from you. And I just don't have a moment of guilt because I don't have a blurry expectation around that. I don't have an inconsistent or unclear or hesitant, doubtful definition of what my work-life balance or parenting expectations are. It's the blur that makes it so painful. And that's you see what I'm saying? So it I think that the confusion a lot of working moms feel is like they feel like, oh, it's because I'm working, it's because I close my door and I need to be on my computer, it's because I'm looking at my phone that my kids are acting out. And I think that's not correct. Set the expectations that your kids can totally handle with resilience. Not they don't even need resilience for this, okay? Kids need resilience and stuff, but it doesn't take resilience to let mom do some work. It just takes clarity and expectation. I think it's worth discovering your kind of zone of genius when it comes to parenting and being like, these are the things I really shine in, I give my all, I'm present, and this is where my children really feel my you know personality, my character, my values, my extra added value. And no, I'm not doing science experiments because that's just not me. That's not I can't give my children that, I can give my children other things. Like, because if your mom never says no to you and never is tired or annoyed of your presence or needs a break from you, then you get the idea, your your mom is a proxy for society, so you kind of get the idea that no one is ever gonna be annoyed with you, and every future boss or girlfriend or whatever should have endless patience and time for your every whim. That's not a great parenting tactic, in my opinion. Yes, but beyond that, I would say you do owe your children one thing. I think good parenting is 90% modeling and just showing them how to lead a healthy adult life. And that takes a lot of time to have a solid marriage, to have a solid solid handle on your health, to know how to manage your time, your relationships with other people, like your your friendships and your family, and to be productive at work, that is what's gonna take the bulk of your time in your life. Right, and your children are gonna observe that, and they're gonna see that not by you directly being with them and reading them books, but by living alongside an adult who's living a productive adult life. That's the parenting.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

If you look at hunter-gatherer societies, they are not actively parenting at all. Children are growing up in the center of attention, but not at the center of attention. So they're not all training their eyes on their children. Well, now you did this. Oh my god, you did that. Come and show mommy. I'm watching you. You know, I was with a friend, God bless her. Maybe she's listening to this podcast. We were we were uh, you know, on the weekend together, and her child could not stand the fact that I was talking to her, and he kept demanding, put your eyes on me. I'm scooting, watch me, I'm scooting. Now we've all had this experience with our children, but I kind of wanted to liberate her and be like, it's okay to say I'm having a conversation now. You don't have to train your eyes on him all the time. Because children actually grow up much better by being around adults and seeing what adults do. So he could have learned not that mummy has to watch him scooting, but that mummy has to talk to a friend because building friendships and community is also a valuable adult skill. And that would have been a good lesson for him. And I think she felt from the modern-day parenting world, like, oh, but I have to watch him all the time, or else he's lacking attention. I'm I'm deficit somehow, he's gonna feel like I don't love him enough. I'm gonna have to pay for therapy when he's third. And the opposite is actually true. Live a full, good, impressive, inspiring, not impressive, whatever, just solid, uh, viable, uh, adult life. Present to your child what it takes to keep a marriage together, to keep a business going, you know, and let them learn. And let them learn that it means also setting boundaries around your home or around laundry, around kids. That's what you owe them so much more than you owe them endless, uh, focused, one-on-one attention all.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

So let's if we could wrap up and um kind of give the the listeners a takeaway from this. I'm hearing number one, this this um guilt feeling is that that um check light in your car. If you're feeling it, check in. What is it and what can you do about it? And does it need to necessarily be listened to, or is it your over-expectations or it right? It's something like that. And I really like that concept because because the feeling and any feeling also, like the feeling of being stressed, that could also be like a a light that that lights up, and then it's like, what's now? What do I have to do with this feeling? Um, that would be the first thing I would say to just stop and take away from this. And and how is it serving you really? Um, I like to think about like when I'm feeling something, a guilt or whatever it is, is this serving me? Is this helping me get done what I want to get done, or is it just overtaking this whole feeling? Um, and the second thing is it's totally fine, and and I'm I'm gonna quote you on this because you're the you're the professional, it's totally fine to voice to your children and to your family, I am working, and they can be your why, but it's not necessarily necessary to get wordy and say, I have to do this because I have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Oh, it's more than fine. I think it I think you'd be doing them a great service. I think constantly feeling apologetic and letting your kids negotiate you into corners where you're stressed later or working late at night, paying the price that they don't see is not a sustainable system, right? You'll build resentment and you will burn out. And I think burnout is a very real risk that working moms, especially working from home in that environment, run. And you've got to protect yourself from that. And so, yeah, your kids are just kids. Don't treat them like adults who understand the ins and outs of how the world works. That's not fair on them. Right. Um, make it clear, make it non-negotiable, and try and be consistent because I know that I've definitely made tons of mistakes in this arena, but I'll tell my kids like, if you see I'm on a Zoom, you can't come in. And then two or three times when they've done it, I've kind of been like, Okay, fine, what's your question? Quickly ask me. And they learn that those boundaries are blurry and weak, and then they push harder, and that creates more friction and resentment and frustration in the family. And so it's better to be really, really super clear, as visual as possible. When the story is closed, you may not open it, that kind of thing. Because everybody thrives on clarity, on predictability. You know, it's very much harder to constantly be negotiating with yourself and with your kids and with the time management with your boss. And everything that's that's a recipe, I think, for the stress that we're talking about that so many working moms experience. I think clarity is always for me at least, it's always a liberator. Whether even if it's something you don't want to hear, like you cannot come in this room right now.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

I think it's also sometimes not everything that you are clear on needs to necessarily be. I mean, it can be communicated, but the second you're clear on it, it doesn't need the communication.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Exactly. Your tone of voice, your body language, the way that you could it just is. You you know, it's just respected so much more. Right. That's that self-respect you were talking about, right? Where you're like, I know that this is what's happening now. I've made the decision, I'm moving forward with it. You don't need to get so wordy. And when you start apologizing, I know you wanted mommy, and mommy's gonna be with you, and I'm gonna come. Don't worry, we're gonna have dinner together. Yesterday we had dinner together, right? That's you feeling like you have something to apologize for, you have something to explain, you've exactly you have to compensate. Like, no, you you're working for your family, you're a great mom, you're with kids. You are probably probably everyone listening to this is spending more time with their kids than moms in the 50s who didn't work in a traditional American household did. That's based on research. Working mums today spend more concentrated hours parenting than not working moms did, you know, 50 or 70 years.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

We can all just let go a little bit of this. I'm not enough, or I haven't spent enough time. It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

It's such a waste of time, and it's not true. It's it's pl it's like patently not true. It's not helpful, it's also counterproductive. Um, and I also think it's completely unrealistic and not what children need. Children need a lot more independent play than you might imagine, a lot more time with peers, uh, they need other adults in their lives. A lot of moms feel guilty. They're with the babysitter, they're with the the grandparents. By the way, children with more than one secure attachment fare but much better in life. It shouldn't all be the mom. That's not how we that's not how, like, you know, apes and other similar animals behave. No, there's joint custody over children in in a society. Um, none of that is good. None of that, like singular, it's not natural to our species to have like the mom and the child alone in an apartment and go figure it out. No, we're supposed to be in in community and and and dependent on others. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. Interesting. And a lot of mums say to me, I feel so guilty. He's just playing by himself. Amazing! That's why he's developing so many critical, important skills. Why would you take that away from him? And and and not to belabor the point, but actually, too much mothering uh can really weaken children. Like, first of all, they need dads who are much more uh prone to risk and prone to rough housing and much more negligent in a good way. Okay, they're like not watching every little thing he does, not on top of everything, not over-empathizing with everything, like you're fine, get up. Yeah, those types of things that moms are doing today are weakening children and are not leading to good results, it's anxiety, it's depression. You know, I'm I'm simplifying this, but that's that's that is what we see, especially like in single mom households where there's no dad present. There's no balance to that empathy, empathy, empathy parenting. And so it's good. Remove yourself, go do your work, trust your kids a bit, trust your husband a bit, trust the grandparents. Okay, so they do too much screen time, so they do too much sugar. So what? Not everything should be like perfect, exactly in accordance to your parenting standards. It's great for kids to get a range of adults in. Their lives.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

I think this is very helpful to the observing part and to the reorganizing our standards of what we set ourselves up for, what these expectations of ourselves up during the day. Personally, I can say that even just for me, I can really just even after this conversation reevaluate what it is I feel you know guilty about when you know when they come home and I'm still on a work call or you know and they I had they have to know about it or anything like that, that you're saying it actually helps them develop. So this has been really, really helpful. I want to thank everyone else. I hope that you guys enjoyed this as much as I enjoyed being part of this conversation. And thank you, Avital, for this validating and very freeing wisdom and your sound advice. And to all of you, I'd love to hear what your biggest challenge is when it comes to working from home. Send me a comment so I can include it in a future episode. And don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss what's next. Thank you for being here, and I really see a brighter and lighter future for you, and it's just around the corner. Thank you so much.