Episode 4: 2025 Reflections and 2026 Predictions with the CPG Guys

We’re closing out 2025 with a no-fluff, all-receipts conversation where power women and real talk collide. Cristina and Jackie are joined by industry heavyweights Peter and Sri from The CPG Guys to audit the year that was—and forecast what’s next.
From the AI hype that fizzled to the retail media reality check, we call BS on overused buzzwords and dig into what really moved the needle (and what didn’t). Expect hot takes on:

AI-powered everything—why it was the most overused phrase and what it actually delivered.
Innovation drought—65% of launches were renovations, not true innovation.
Retail media wins & fails—where it worked (in-store, search) and where it flopped (off-site display).
Metrics that need to die—ROAS, influencer engagement, and “new-to-brand” obsession.
Promo addiction & price-pack architecture—why frequency vs depth matters more than ever.
Women in leadership—progress made, but why representation still lags behind consumer reality.
Unspoken rules to retire—FaceTime ≠ commitment, and culture fit ≠ sameness.

Plus, we tackle the big question: What does “Beyond the Basket” really mean? Spoiler: It’s about relationships, not transactions.
This episode is bold, provocative, and packed with insights for anyone navigating the evolving world of CPG, retail media, and commerce.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Hello, everyone. You're here with Christina and Jackie with a few very, very special guests for another episode of Chi Commerce, where power women and real talk collide in the CPG world. And we are joined today by our good friends, brothers from Another Mother, Peter and Shri from the CPG guys. Hey Christina.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Hey Jackie, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 0:35

We're great.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Does that mean that you guys are power men? Or power women with the with the mustache?

SPEAKER_04 0:45

I think it means that we understand that it that if it's only women alone trying to advance the cause, it won't happen as quickly as if there are there are men along for the journey. We're here to support. We're here. It's it's part of our mandate. It's part of what we do. It's important to us. And we're just so pleased that you guys are two more voices in this ecosystem and this platform that we call podcasting to help evangelize and educate and entertain in our industry.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Sri? Just thankful she didn't say distinguished guests, because that would have meant they're actually gonna stretch. There's a 30-year age gap, and we're like Luddites. Yeah. Christina doesn't really use word for e-commerce, Peter.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

By the way, if you haven't noticed it, Sri tries to now to work the word Luddite into every single episode we record.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Is that your 2025 word tree?

SPEAKER_04 1:34

It is. I'm hoping it's going to the year.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I stopped by Peter to mean the summer of 2025. It was the summer of 2025, and then out came the word.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Well, we are ending the year together and doing a little bit of a 2025 audit here. Um hopefully keeping it real. I know you guys will. No PR, no fluff, just the receipts only, and your fresh takes on the year that we just had and the year ahead. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Okay, let's go. Let's go. All right, let's let's start with with a couple of uh a couple of questions that we have for you guys. Uh 2025. Lots of words, lots of phrases, lots of new things, lots of overused phrases. What would you say? I'll start with you, Sri. What would you say was the most overused phrase in CPG in 2025? What did it actually mean in practice?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

You gave me a lollipop one, easy one here, softball.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

I'm easy you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Of course it's artificial intelligence. We started the year by going to CAGNE, Peter and I, and AI was something every CEO and CFO mentioned, but we were disappointed that they said it's only going to be a CTO mandate, which means more chat bots, customer service chat bots, internal productivity. How can I find my benefits information quickly on my HR portal? That's what AI was used for. Very, very, very, very disappointing actually in practice. Meanwhile, if you go to chat if the basic version of Chat GPT or Pilot, you don't have to go very deep, you don't have to pay money. It's doing next to things that we ever fathomed at the beginning of the year. So I would say retail, especially, complete swing and a miss. Very disappointed by CPG and retail for very, very, very inept incompetence and no use of AI. What I think of is at the end of the day, I'll turn it over to Peter in a second, and you guys, but what I think of is whenever you adopt and try to create something in our industry, you got to put the consumer first. And our industry failed to do that. That to me was a failure.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

Yeah, Sri, I'll echo what you'd say. I'll be a little more specific. The term AI powered. Talk about overuse. Look, Sri and I sat through 30 presentations at CAGNI. I probably sat on another dozen or so brand presentations where they slapped the term AI powered on everything from demand forecasting to social listening tools that are basically just large language model sentiment analysis with a new coat of paint slapped on top of it, right? In practice, it meant, in all honesty, we updated our Excel macros and hired a data scientist. Okay. The actual AI deployment was maybe 10% of what got pitched in the actual decks that we saw. So yeah, AI powered, massively overused. I I smell BS.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Do you think they'll start talking about employees that way, that we're all AI powered in the next few years?

SPEAKER_04 4:27

God forbid, Christina. I think that's gnarly, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

I think that would be gnarly.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

No, it's very gnarly.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

But we gotta convert it to being hot cutter.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Jackie, how about you? Do you have any that you're looking to retire this year?

SPEAKER_02 4:40

I you know what? I'm I'm with Shri and Peter. AI this and AI that and AI everything. It was just catch-up on literally everything and no actual spice and flavoring. You know what I mean? If we're gonna and I and I'm talking in food because I'm hungry. So right now that's what's resonating with me. But but uh no, I agree. There were so many ways to go again, going back to what Shri and Peter were saying, so many ways you could have used AI to make a difference and to really drive innovation and and and drive, I guess, drive better ways to engage with the consumer. And it just it didn't happen. Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Yeah. I think the the AI transformation we've heard a lot about for a lot of companies, that just mean meant, you know, making a ton more assets faster, but getting the same results. And I guess along that line, everyone talking about driving incrementality, which is great, but I think not many people know what that actually means. And it doesn't fully I think people are using that when they can't explain attribution. So we need to really get to the heart of that this year, coming from insights and analytics and hopefully progressing the measurement in that front too.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

All right, for the next one, I'm gonna get us started with a statistic. And I actually used AI to get my answer to this one. I want the three of you to guess, as a question for you, what percent of innovation in 2025 were renovations, not true new products of any sort? Is it 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%?

SPEAKER_03 6:12

I'd say upwards of that. At least five.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yep. Christina is in the right direction. No, Peter, let me ask the question again. What percent were renovations, not true innovations?

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Oh, sorry. Oh, I was gonna say like 95% are are renovations.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

I was gonna go like 80. 85.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

65. 65. Okay. And ChatGPT doesn't lie because the LLMs are pretty pretty solid. But the reason it says like 2025 felt so boring was because CPG companies globally collectively bought the lowest share of true new product to the markets since 1974. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Well, let me let How many of us have born then? Let me tackle this less from a product innovation and more at a 30,000-foot level. I think the biggest rebrand in the language that we use is omnichannel personalization became unified commerce experiences, right? It's the same tech stack, it's the same CDP or customer data platform, it's the same challenges with data integration. They just put a shinier name on it because, in all honesty, omnichannel isn't testing very well. People just don't like it, they don't want to use that. At the end of the day, what matters is your consumers still want to get their stuff delivered on their doorstep on time. That's what matters. So you can give it a new name. It doesn't change the fact that that's what consumers are focused on. So let me ask go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

I want to ask Christina and Jackie your favorite or most boring, if you want to point an innovation, what would that be? Most boring renovation. I got one. So I'd love to hear from all of you.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

I'll put us on the spot here.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

I think I think, guys, Fritol's continued reliance on just making new flavors again, again of the same lace chips. It used to be salt, potatoes, and oil. Now it's salt, potatoes, oil, and some flavoring. I think the boring one is a little bit more than a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Don't forget, it's real potatoes now, Shri. And they got a new logo.

unknown 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

It's a refreshed logo.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

To me, it's some of the most boring stuff in from my eyes at least.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

I don't know about you, but for me, cat's eye is innovation. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Gnarly. Are they gnarly, Peter? They are gnarly. They are gnarly. What's your favorite song?

unknown 8:26

Me?

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Mine is definitely gnarly. Touch.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

The original debut. Jackie.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

I have to say.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

It's it's catchy. It's catchy. All right. Innovation, guys. Anything else? Anything in your opinion?

SPEAKER_03 8:38

I think to your point, though, Sri, like the whole focus on RGM and price pack architecture is what companies are seeing as that new innovation pipeline. And there's a a lot of reasons why. Obviously the financial pressures, but it also is faster, cheaper. I think finance understands it. So being really focused there as an organization, that can be really boring. And it also can maybe lack the deep consumer insight. But when done properly, I think it can meet a lot of those consumer needs. I just think we did we need to bring that together and have a more balanced approach to it going forward.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, and and to follow on from Christina, it's price back architecture may not sound sexy and creative and brandy, but what consumers need is what's what needs to be we need to drive, right? And they need variation in terms of of of different bundles. And that oftentimes innovation is the simplest thing you can find. Let's not complicate stuff. What is it that clients or or consumers want? And let's just give it to them. Let's look at what they need.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Jackie went back to the same thing. When the industry fails to put the consumer at the center, we fail collectively, and here we go. It was no different in innovation, as in the buzzword. So we'll roll over to the roll over to the next one here. Huge pet peeve of mine, and I'm sure it bothers all three of you every day. What was one metric you saw celebrated again and again, which you think is garbage and nonsense?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Raw as well, I'll jump right in there.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Influencer engagement rate. Everybody celebrated it, but half of those likes come from bots. The other half are from shade. The other half are from people who will never buy the product, and nobody's actually connecting it to conversion or lifetime value. We're measuring popularity, not profitability. And in CPG, popularity without purchase velocity is just very expensive PR, my POV.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Wow, Peter's curious.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

I'm gonna raise you one. I'm gonna raise you one, Peter. I think new to brand is that KPI that everyone's talking about.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Is it really new to brand? Is it really new to brand?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

But also, isn't that what we call trial? So what happens to repeat, right? You can't measure new to brand without measuring repeat. It's like, you know, they're yin and yang. They have to go.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

It's not new to brand. You know that, Christina. It's new to brand at that retailer. And is that really new to brand?

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Right. And during I want to give an example.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

To Christina's point, I want to give an example of new to brand, right? Yep. So I'm gonna use the iconic whiskey maker in the US, Jim Beam. They announced this morning that they will not be producing any whiskey in 2026. In in in at their flagship distillery in Kentucky. That's correct, which is a big deal. It's a big deal for that brand. It's an iconic long-term legacy brand. They're in some ways I can say they struggle to get new to brand because they rely on huge Canadian imports, which obviously with the tariffs have fallen off the cliff, and they fail to get new to brand. They cannot get more American consumers to consume. So theoretically, it could be a metric. The problem is I don't think the data exists at the household level to prove anything. In 50 years of collecting household metrics, retailers have them through loyalty cards. CPG's never had that access unless you're DDC, but you're too small and irrelevant if you are. So it's very convenient to say, I don't have more new new. We gotta focus on new to brand in the US, but good luck. My favorite metric that I think is a pet peeve of mine that I think is garbage the way it's being used is actually, I think Jackie might have blurted it out, Roas. Uh, across to the day, those that are coming over from core media into retail media, they lead with ROAS because it's been their back pocket hip metric in like TV, print, advertising, NBC, blah yada yada yada. They come over to retail media and they try to force fit ROAS as the most important metric. In an ecosystem where people come to the retailers' website of the app already ready to buy or ready to do, ready with an action. It's not like a TV channel where they simply get exposure at the highest level. So Roas should make when you benchmark a ROAS and you look for TV like ROAS on retail media or vice versa, it simply doesn't make sense because all platforms are not bound the same. Jackie, I love your opinion.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

In a nutshell, Trey, I think that Roas is basically the CPG equivalent of taking credit for a sale that's already happening, right? Uh it's inflated by retargeting people who already had items in their basket. You know, what what is it what is it proving to you?

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Peter, we need to ask our measurement queen here, Miss Marinucci, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Well, I think that's where we need to add in incrementality and true incrementality and have attribution that can measure that properly. I'm with you guys. I think it's way overused. I think that it we're basically measuring, I don't know, gravity and saying, calling it a lift when we talk about role as that broadly. And we're kind of subsidizing the I I also call it subsidizing the click, if you will, because they were already there. So we're just, you know, uh paying for it one on one side and you know, taking credit for it on the other when it was gonna happen. So yeah, um, I I think that is not the right measure. We need to move away from that and and get smarter about measurement.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Gravity is working against me. Gravity wants to bring me down. Y'all know whose song that is? I can't sing for a living.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Is that Wicked?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

John Mayer. John Mayer is a good one. The last living legend in Peter's eyes.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

He was the that was the last artist I could I consider buying an album for at this point. Any new artists, I don't buy their albums. I might hear them on the radio, but I'm done.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Unless it's cat's eye and we buy their album.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

That's different, cat's eye. All right. What's next, Jackie? I saw it with my own eye. I did I did pay money. Sure. What's next up, Jackie? What do you got?

SPEAKER_02 14:31

All right.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Let's look at He declined freebies and said I'm going to support her.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Let's look at where a retail media reality check. Okay. So where did retail media, where do you think retail media actually worked this, actually worked this year, and where did it absolutely not?

SPEAKER_04 14:49

Okay. Well, I'll take that. Uh it worked in in-store, digital, and search, high intent, close to purchase, measurable lift. Where it didn't work, off-site display advertising that was basically just programmatic with a Kroger or Walmart wrapper on top of it, right? You paid a premium for first-party data that performed like third-party inventory. The Emperor has no clothes when your ROAS looks identical to Meta. That's just the reality of the situation. Free, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Retail media's biggest failure continues to be wrong people in the wrong jobs. When you bring hardcore media people who understand captivating media and bring them onto retail, you have a clash with merchandising. The biggest failure of the industry in 2025, and I don't see a solve, in 2026, is the inability of merchandising and retail media networks to work closely together with the exception of Walmart Connect. Until we solve that in the industry, this is always going to be a who's profitability, a chase for dollars, money grab, forced GBP numbers, things of that nature, without again doing what we declared right up front in this podcast is the most important thing. Put the damn consumer first at the center of it.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Yeah, I agree. I I also think retail media wasn't always used properly, especially on the brand side where we had the wrong fundamentals for it to sit on top of, you know, whether that be the wrong price or weak promo distribution gaps out of stocks, obviously. And and then we're saying, well, the campaign was bad, right? Or the the ROAS was was too low, et cetera. But that it's not a failure of the retail media, the the tactic there. It's a failure of the foundation that it was sitting on top of.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

And you know, Christina, to to uh follow on from your point in terms of retail media that didn't work. If you can't connect the ad to an actual sale, what is the point? You're basically paying for a billboard down a road that nobody drives down, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:46

I mean, I think retailers definitely won or had a one-up this year in terms of the leverage war with with retail media and the spends. I think platforms are improving or they're definitely winning in terms of like tooling. But brands this year, I I don't know. They may have won most improved for paying more for the same shopper, but not necessarily connecting with the right shopper at the right moment just yet. We're still working to unlock that. Great.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Can we do one more thing? One one more thing for retail media. I I'm been jumping at the bit to ask y'all this question, and I'm gonna connect it back with just CPG in general. Your favorite word of the year, full funnel, incrementality, halo effect. You must pick one. Again, I'll repeat it. Full funnel, incrementality, or halo effect.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

But like really our favorite?

SPEAKER_04 17:35

I I want I want incrementality. Full funnel means nothing unless it uh I actually deliver incremental sales. Halo effect, that's that's that's also an I find it hard. That tells me that there's not really a measurement. They're saying, well, we have a halo effect.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

It's the it's the trust me of measurement.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

Yeah, trust me. I got a halo on it.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

It's the synergy.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

I still like full funnel of measurement, right? It's the synergy of measurement.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

I like full funnel still. I don't think we're actually executing full funnel just yet. And to your point, Peter, that it's leading to the conversion incrementality. But I I know some people say that that's phrases overused, but I personally do like it and speaks to the power of retail media and where we need to get to full function.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

We're sounding like four management consultants deciding which word to put on the slide number 17 of the deck that was created offshore and sent to us.

SPEAKER_04 18:25

Shri, we should talk about that at the Capitol Grill over dinner.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Even formed today.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

We should, we should, we should talk about that during our consulting. And don't forget to pass that on to the client.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

All right. Well, since we're talking consulting, we know that consulting slides can be rather generic. So what what's one deck or one slide in a deck that you would ban going forward?

SPEAKER_04 18:48

Customer journey map. All right, 47 touch points that pretend people give a damn about your brand at every moment of their day. The fact of the matter is, nobody wakes up thinking about your frickin' yogurt brand. They think about yogurt for like eight seconds in aisle 12. Kill the freaking journey porn and focus on the two moments that really matter: discovery and decision. That's it. I don't want to see another massive multi-touch journey map. It's out of control. Jackie, I'll let you go first.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

That's a tough one. I'm thinking. I'm still thinking. I'm still thinking on that. There are too many slides to choose from, Christina. Too many.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

I know. I know. So now that I'm an independent consultant, I'm getting to work with both retail and CPG slides.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Are you saying you put slides together for a living now, Shri?

SPEAKER_00 19:43

I don't have the skill set to do slides. And plus I've realized you can use gamma, which is like AI that builds your slide deck for you. Yeah. So there's no reason to, which is scary and friendly at the same time. I think for me, the biggest, the biggest um ban slide that I would absolutely tell. World right now that you cannot use because they should have been obvious on day one is incrementality. The word incrementality. It's every strap plan has the word we're chasing new to brand incrementality. That's what they're reckoning it to. Isn't that a quest that every brand should be chasing every single year anyway? Like it's it's par for the course at this point. And my second favorite one, Christina and I were discussing this in 2015 when we worked together at JJ Consumer. If you still have to have a page in your strap plan or your AOP on PDPs and convince people that investing in PDPs is important, you've lost the plot a long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

But I'd love to hear both of your opinions.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

I I'm I'm gonna I I'm going to steal that one, Sri, because yes, the at the moment you said that, it just resonated with so many the number of times I've had to sit there and actually roll my eyes when we're we're still talking about PDPs and optimizing PDPs today in 2025. I mean, come on. That is that's not even that's not even that that shouldn't be even be an opinion. That should be a BAU. You know? Why are we talking about this now?

SPEAKER_03 21:16

We're still still not doing it right, Jackie. It's not a set it and forget it, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Exactly. I mean it's it is, I don't know, maybe, maybe I'm just getting old here, but it's like, god damn, it's common sense, folks.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Those aren't mutually exclusive events, Jackie.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

What getting old and common sense?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

There you go. There you go. Well, I mean, should we jump into a fun topic, Christina?

SPEAKER_03 21:39

A fun topic, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Margin wars, promo addiction. I would say frequency versus depth. And those are obviously buzzwords in the industry as well, we've all coined. Could you take a minute, Christina, explain for the industry the difference between frequency and depth, and let's just talk about what have we learned about price increases?

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Well, yeah, I mean, I think we learned promo isn't dead, that it's motivating, and shoppers are definitely responding to it. But frequency is how often you're on sale. So if you think about the old Pepsi Co Coca-Cola, right? Like one week on, one week off, and the shoppers switching between them, potentially. And then the depth of discount is actually like more the promo mechanics, right? Like what does that offer look like? And I think there's a lot of behavioral psychology that goes on behind it, and we've studied it, right? What works best, what's that willingness to pay threshold, how do you get to that willingness to pay using different discount offers, et cetera. But they they do need to work together to get to your overall pri uh pricing and promo strategy, which I think that's the key word, their strategy. It's not just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks and to drive volume at the end of the day. It's it's really developing that strategy for your brand.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Let's go with you, Jackie. I'm just dying to know in the UK, are you guys seeing as many promos? Is everything discounted?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Can I tell you, everything that Christina just said immediately made me think of a brand whose name I shall not mention, but it's to do with furniture. And it is literally on sale. And there's or a little bit of.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

Does it rhyme with Schmaikia? No, sorry, go ahead. No, it doesn't rhyme with Schmike. I know it doesn't. I know it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

And it's it's three letters. And every British person who is listening to this will know exactly who it means.

SPEAKER_04 23:30

They'll know. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah. And and this this furniture brand is on sale for at least it feels like 300 out of the 365 days of the year. And you are judged if you buy anything full price from this company, because what were you thinking? Basically, because there's always a sale. And it just it kind of devalues it. And and okay, here I'm talking an you know, here I'm talking anecdotally. If I see something is on sale, and and my god, the psychology works here, right? But if I see something is on sale all the time, I'm sitting there going, well, are you actually worth this price? Or should I just wait until you have another sale on top of this sale? Or am I ever gonna buy you at full price? Because hell no. Because I know I can get this cheaper. And also, do I want to get this cheaper because you're always on sale? You know?

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Yeah, it's like it's like the Black Friday discount code, right? You know you're gonna get as good a better one on Cyber Monday. So why am I gonna do it on Black Friday? That's why a lot of these retailers now are just calling it the Turkey 5 promotion, right? It's the Black Friday week promotion code. And instead of trying to get me to do it on one day, because they know I'm gonna hold out, and so they just want to get me to buy it now. And if they if I feel confident that this is the same deal I'm gonna get on Monday that you're offering me on Friday, then I'll buy it now to spare me the delay.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

As a shopper, it's annoying. I did that too.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

I'm not saying I'm happy about it, I'm just saying at least I knew because otherwise I'm just gonna ignore Black Friday. I'm gonna wait till Cyber Monday.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

It can be really frustrating for her because like I personally, I bought something on Black Friday, and then Cyber Monday came and it was like five percent more of a discount. And I was so frustrated like I should have just.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Cancel your order. Cancel your order.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

No final. Yeah, and now Peter can call me a Luddite because I, for one, actually missed the flyers coming home before Black Friday and me standing in queue paying$2.99 to buy that TV of Walmart.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

Shree loves to go to Walmart at midnight when the door is open, and mostly he likes stomping on little kids, which is just like Shree, seriously, you need you need help for this. Who brings the kids at midnight to stand in the Walmart? I saw a video of the Walmart in in Woodland Hills, and I swear I saw Shree hip checking a little seven-year-old to get to get the QLED screen. It was really shameful. Drinking early today.

unknown 25:57

Very shameful.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

We've been drinking early.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

It's the thrill of it, huh? I mean, it's not dead.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I miss going to Nodrum Rack.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Promo is is not dead. It's just I can't take my kids and go to any store anymore.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

It's just store shopping has ended for this family. I miss that. Especially Black Friday.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

You guys are jet sending every week, so there's definitely no time over there.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Uh so I have just a quick opinion on promo. I think um price pack architecture is a word that has existed forever, nothing new. You know, historically I remember PepsiCo we used to words like weight up, price down, price up, weight down, all these kind of things. Past part of price pack architecture is par for the course. I'm not convinced to the day CPG branding is using price pack architecture effectively from what the consumer demand consumption is. It's still built for a profit. I'm not blaming people for building it for profit. You have to deliver for your shore shareholders, and B, based on an archaic model of how the store shelf sell looks like when 90% of discovery, browsing, consumption, purchasing is all happening online, even though the execution might be in store. Completely outdated model of category management is to blame.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

But you know when it does work though, when promos do work really well, is when it's aligned with inventory, with a really creative and innovative media campaign, and the moment, you know, knowing when the average person has their payday or really sharp seasonal execution, that's when it really does work.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Peter's not allowed me to have a payday in a long, long time, so I wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Well, I I think it should be insights driven, right? Not to your point, Shri. It's not about hitting a a price point or to squeeze more margin out of a product, but really to be insights driven, and that can be adding value in that they're gonna pay more for and understanding with discipline what those elasticities are.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

All right, let's get into let's get into the legacy giants versus the CPG cool kids. What's one capability brands must build in 2026 and not outsource? So, Christina, why why don't we ask you, then Jackie, and then we'll flip it over.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Well, there's so many, but you already touched on one of these. I think it is the digital shelf excellence. We're still not there, as you said. That is a capability gap and it's continuing to evolve, right, with agentic search. And what does that mean for our PDPs, for our brand websites? Like that's a big source and showing up there in the right way, which is challenging maybe some of you know the marketing um kind of traditional ways of marketing our products that we've we've thought of. So I think going back to those basics to relook at them and make sure that the AI that's sitting on top of it and the analytics is is going to be fit for purpose. Like it's still not there to your point from earlier.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Why, why, Christina, Jackie or Peter, in 2026, as we approach it, 10 years in the making or 15 years in the making of truly digital commerce, omnicommerce, are we still having a discussion that we're not there yet? What do you think is wrong, broken? Why does this even happen?

SPEAKER_03 29:09

It becomes stagnant. I don't think people believe it's something that always needs to be done, right? It's always running, it's always on. And I think it's the connection, like making that more automated and putting a system and resources around it. It's not, you know, a once-a-year activity.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Because we have too many Luddites in this industry who are still holding on to the old methodologies of the 90s, creating vanilla CPG products at for hitting in CPG margin goal, retail uh likewise accepting him based on trade rates and methodologies in an outdated category management built in the 80s and 90s. Bunch of Luddites.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And as far as they see, it ain't broke.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Even though they don't realize it's been broken since March 17th of 23. There is no volume growth in the industry, minus Walmart, which is sourced from others, due to very active focus, return to focus on two things, right? One is EDLP, and the second is really getting into digital. So they are evolved from being that Luddite.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Completely. It's the perception of it ain't broke, you know? And Walmart moved on from that. The others still have to play catch up.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Agree, Peter? You like the Luddite net nature of our industry? Third time I used it.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Here's my big beef around the CPG cool kid versus the builders, right? Too many RMNs are outsourcing their retail media operations to their agencies, right? The smart ones are the ones that are building it in-house, right? They're managing, you know, 40 other brands are using these agencies. They're using the same playbooks. They don't even live in the retail media's network's PL, right? There's got to be someone inside who wakes up every day thinking about, you know, DSP performance and incrementality and all that. It's not an option anymore. This is what's gonna, this is what's gonna separate the wheat from the chaff, right? We're going to, the ones that are gonna win are really dedicated. The big guys right now are the ones that are doing it. Amazon, Instacart, Walmart, maybe Kroger. There's a reckoning coming, Shri, right? The cool kids are the ones that have the wherewithal to do this. The mid-market retailers that are just outsourcing everything, it's not gonna last much longer. There, there's a day of reckoning coming for them. That's just my POV.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

I think in the adopted song and they can't let go and it goes like this. Don't be fooled by the rocks that I got. I'm still Jenny from the block.

SPEAKER_04 31:45

Jenny, don't use Jenny from the block, man. That's that's tough. It's old school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

I love it. Bring it back. No, I'm not. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

Hang in.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

My first love there's a KOT.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Are we talking Donnie Wahlberg? Wow. Hang in, tough.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

But yeah, the cool kids definitely won the headlines. I think the builders are winning in distribution. They have that shelf discipline to your point and repeat. And that's what it's gonna take to win. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Let's do some uh now. The CPG guys here definitely want to jump into this next section as we bring it home, which is in 2025, did we see real progress for women leaders in our industry, retail or CPG?

SPEAKER_04 32:32

Well All right, so I'm gonna throw up my POV, but I do want to hear from the women because it really matters what they say the most because they're in that position. But my biggest concern is just I look at organizations like women in commerce media, and they created that community because yeah, we see some really high profile women leading retail media networks and commerce media networks. We see Lauren Brewski at Chase, we see Chrissy Argelin at Uber, we see even Christine Foster at Program Position Marketing. But but it but then the next three tiers down, there just aren't enough there. There's not enough on the bench. They're not enough and and I don't that's what concerns me is that women make most of the purchasing decisions, particularly in the consumer goods world, and they're just not even remotely represented as is and it's not like men can't do it, it's just and and that men should be doing it or women can't do it. The fact of the matter is it's not happening, and that's to a degree why Shree and I are so invested in your podcasts and women in commerce media, because we gotta start making this much more representative of the of the communities we live in. Just has to be. But I I want to hear your thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Well, the fact I mean the fact that you can actually name, immediately name um few women in CPG, a few women leaders, and just straight off the bat kind of make and and then you stop, right? Because those are the only there are only a few for a few of us out there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And uh and and yes, it is there is not as much representation to represent that 82% of women are the consumers. But I don't know, Christina, maybe it's my Pollyanna attitude or the whiskey in my glass. I think that I think that uh change is happening slowly, very, very slowly, but I think change is happening. Like, for example, Peter, this month in December, um, if you remember Debrati Sen from 3M, now uh chief commercial officer over um over on this side of the pond with uh with Kingfishers. I mean, it's good things are happening, albeit at a glacial pace. What do you think, Christine?

SPEAKER_00 34:58

So if we were to go ahead, Christina.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Yeah, no, I I think we are definitely seeing more representation. But Jackie, we talked to Christine about this as well, that we also want to see that that power shift, right? And some of those rules being evolved and actions being taken that are very going to have that influence, the the female influence on them. And I think one way that can happen is even more board representation, right? Going if you look at the boards of a lot of these major organizations, predominantly male males that hold those positions, and that we're answering to.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

So to change the dynamic, right, as we bring this home, if there was one unspoken rule in CPG that must be sunset or retired, what do you think? What do you guys think that one unspoken rule? And there are so many unspoken rules in CPG. Every time I've been hired by the largest corporations in the world, they've given me 20 each. This is our kind of the way we do things around here, and you know, it'll be great, and blah, blah, blah. And to the days, CPGs try to hire a leader based on can they assimilate in versus bringing capabilities in. So what's that one unspoken rule in each of your minds? Maybe, Peter, you can kick us off. Unless you believe there is no unspoken rule, which I'll finally have to believe. That itself would be an unspoken rule.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Sorry, I was on mute. Uh, let me let me turn it over to the ladies first. I I have strong opinions, but I want to hear their thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

I have one very sweet one.

unknown 36:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Um, and that is performative presented. The fact that FaceTime equals commitment. And that is such a challenge for so many, for so many working women. Because, and let's call a spade a spade here, folks. Women still are the primary caregivers for families in whichever shape or form that those families might be in. And FaceTime does not include commitment in any way, shape, or form. Yes, we should meet. We should meet for sure, and we should spend time together as teams and as a as an organization, but you're not going to get 20% or 30% more productivity from me or from my colleagues if you make us come into the office three, four, five times a week. You get less because we have to commute.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Yeah. That's a great point. I think quality over quantity, right? And when I'm there or when you're there, be fully there, but don't expect that all the time. When I hear culture fit shri, for me, that equals sameness, right? You want us to fit the mold, you want us to, you know, nod our head in agreement, maybe not challenge us just a little bit, but you know, know the box, like stay within the box. And I think that's just creating a culture of sameness, breeding sameness. And we're really hiring more of a monoculture. And for me, I'm looking for those, those people that are outspoken aren't afraid to challenge, you know, no matter where they sit in the organization, and are really looking to evolve.

SPEAKER_04 38:01

Let me revise and extend your comments there, as I say in my most congressional language. I don't want to ever hear anybody say I'm I'm following the traditional path, that I'm going from sales to brand, then general management. Those days are long gone. They are gone, gone, gone. There is no traditional path. You go, you go where go where the opportunities are and where the biggest things that'll move the needle can happen. There is no you have to follow a traditional path. It's gone.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Peter, I don't believe the largest CPG companies have understood what you said as yet. No, they don't. They give you the rotation. I'll give you the reason for that. So largest CPG companies are still very much employing people who are the MBAs from elites, as they did in the 80s and 90s for brand building purposes, and that's where they're focused on. The reason they do it is most of them, 80% of all business conducted in retail is warehouse-based. Brand building is all you can do because you don't have control of the POS. But we live in a world now with data sharing, AI, omnicommerce, where you can truly own the narrative with the consumer. And we're sitting with a bunch of executives up top who don't have that capability. They know how to do brand building. They are not trained in selling. And so why do we have this volume challenge for the last two and a half years? Because these aren't the people that are going to help us snap out of it. By the way, they come from McKinsey as well. They come from some of the largest consulting houses. There was a time and place where you needed excellent PL managers. Now you need volume drivers. They don't have that skill set, I'm sorry. But they're excellent PL managers. They'll deliver the dividend without failure every quarter. They'll cut heads if they have to, cut expenses, over optimize supply chain. It's just a vicious circle of not being able to snap back into volume. Two and a half years is very generous. We've failed the industrially industry collectively.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

What's going to change that, Sri? Do they have to change how they are rewarded?

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Did you guys add all you guys have all kind of said. It collectively, like if you hire for somebody to come in and just adopt a playbook that you built in the 80s and 90s for vanilla growth, good luck. That has to change.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

I do think the incentives need to change, Peter. A lot of people are uh more short-term incentivized, right? Think about your bonus, your LTIs that are awarded. That's all based on in-year performance. What is the what is the motivator to then really drive change, which is going to take longer or innovate, like beyond the course re, which in most cases does take longer. If it's and you might have to have um a negative impact on that PL for a year or two before you really see the impact of those efforts.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

Christina, if your CEO looks at the numbers and realizes that they're short of target, but to hit the EBITDA number, they've got to take away 50% of the bonus pool for the bonus eligible employees. Who's having a good Christmas? Is it the CEO or is it the employees?

SPEAKER_03 41:02

It's the CEO.

SPEAKER_04 41:03

I think we know who the answer is because that's what they get rewarded on. They get rewarded on delivering that. And if it means taking from one to deliver those numbers, you're gonna be going without without the the new Xbox toy over Christmas for your kids.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

All right. I'm gonna bring it home with a lightning round where I get to ask each of you one question.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

Shouldn't they ask us, Shree? Are we taking have we hijacked their have we hijacked their podcast?

SPEAKER_00 41:28

I want to hear Christina and Jackie's opinion, not your and my voting opinions and stuff. Okay. So I'm gonna kick it off with Jackie first. What's a 2025 obsession you're over, Jackie?

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Oh, premiumization is a blanket strategy, Shree. So over that. Look, I will spend money on good cream, but I will not spend$25 on the street.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

This is a lightning round, Jackie. I know, I know. Lightning round Jackie.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

But$25 on toilet roll. No.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Christina, one capability gap you're still seeing in the industry.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Measurement literacy, right? We just talked about that. People say Roaz and incremental and Halo, like it's seasoning.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Peter, one retailer move you loved.

SPEAKER_04 42:10

Amazon fighting letting brands opt out of certain promotional mechanics without getting algorithmic punishment.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Jackie, your theme song from 2025.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Oh damn. Firestarter, Prodigy. That's my theme song.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

That's a gnarly, that's a gnarly letdown.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Gnarly. What's yours, Ray? What's your theme song?

SPEAKER_00 42:27

My theme song is gnarly for this year.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

There's no doubt about it. But Cena, you're next. One phrase from 2025 you hope won't survive in 2026.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Six, seven. Sorry, that's funny.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

That is funny, but yes. Uh Peter, one hill you'll die on in 2026 for this industry.

SPEAKER_04 42:43

Uh shelf placement still matters more than 90 90% of your digital spend.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Now I have the same question for all three of you as we close it out. Beyond the basket means what to you in one sentence. Christina first.

SPEAKER_03 42:56

Beyond the basket, I think if it doesn't change what people buy next, it doesn't matter. It's just content.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Jackie?

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Build that relationship that outlives the transaction through service and habits and trust.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Close us out, Mr. Bond. What does it mean to you? One sentence beyond that.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

I'm going to rephrase what these two brilliant women said, which is stop obsessing over what's in the cart and start thinking about the lifetime revenue stream of that household. You gotta be thinking about the future of that. Is it worth it? Is it worth it?

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Awesome. What a fun this has been, uh ladies, if you want to close us out.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

This has been so much fun. Thank you for joining us to reflect on the year and thank you for all your support of SheCommerce and women in general and being such a strong and vocal ally for us in the industry. We very much appreciate it. And we love you guys, and we wish everyone a wonderful holiday.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

Did did I hear, Shri, did I hear that that SheCommerce is making a big splash appearance at CES next month? Is that what I heard? That's what I heard. And I think rumor has it has it. Rumor has it. All of She Commerce will be there. All of She Commerce will be there. So if you happen to be lucky enough to have one of the golden tickets to the CPG Guys kickoff party on Monday, January 5th, the ladies of She Commerce will be in residence. It should be fun. So do stop by and say hi. Thanks, ladies. Love to be here.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

And you look forward to seeing everybody at C Commerce.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

We are 24 to it. Don't you have a catchphrase you want to say, Jackie? I sure do, Peter. Full brands. Fierce women. One sisterhood.