Episode 14: New Beginnings & Ugly Middles w/ Tina Lambert

What if the biggest lie we’ve been sold about growth… is that it’s supposed to look polished?

In this episode of SHeCOMMERCE, Cristina and Jacqui sit down with powerhouse marketer and innovation leader Tina Lambert—author of Innovation Is Ugly—to unpack the messy, uncomfortable, and wildly transformative reality of reinvention.

From leading brand turnarounds and driving billion-dollar growth in CPG to making a bold pivot into the automotive industry, Tina shares what it really takes to evolve your career, rebuild your identity, and lead through uncertainty.

Because here’s the truth: growth isn’t linear—and innovation definitely isn’t pretty.  

 What We Cover

• Why innovation is messy, lonely, and often misunderstood
• The myth of the “perfect career path” (and what to do instead)
• How to navigate career transitions, layoffs, and identity shifts
• The problem with traditional innovation funnels—and what actually works
• Big company vs. startup mindset: speed, risk, and decision-making
• Why fresh eyes can be your biggest competitive advantage
• Building resilience, adaptability, and confidence in the unknown

Key Takeaways

This episode is for anyone in a “messy middle”—whether you’re pivoting careers, rebuilding after a setback, or trying to drive innovation inside a complex organization.

Tina reminds us: You don’t need to have it all figured out to move forward Innovation isn’t about perfection—it’s about persistence Reinvention isn’t a reset—it’s an expansion

Who Should Listen

• CPG leaders & brand builders
• Marketers navigating transformation or innovation strategy
• Women in leadership facing career pivots or reinvention
• Anyone questioning what “success” should look like next

Bold Brands. Fierce Women. One Sisterhood. 

SHeCOMMERCE: 

Website: https://shecommercepodcast.com/
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DISCLAIMER: The content in this podcast episode is provided for general informational purposes only. By listening to our episode, you understand that no information contained in this episode should be construed as advice from SHeCOMMERCE Podcast or the individual author, hosts, or guests, nor is it intended to be a substitute for research on any subject matter. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by SHeCOMMERCE Podcast. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.

SHeCOMMERCE Podcast expressly disclaims any and all liability or responsibility for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential or other damages arising out of any individual’s use of, reference to, or inability to use this podcast or the information we presented in this podcast. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome back to SheCommerce, where power, women, and real talk collide in the CPG world.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

And today we're talking about something that sounds very cute in theory and very but is very chaotic in practice. Spring cleaning and new beginnings.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Yeah, but not just spring cleaning of your closet and your garage. We're talking that internal spring cleaning and clearing out all those old assumptions and playbooks, maybe even old titles, to make room for what's coming next. To be clear, we're not talking about your pantry.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

We're talking about cleaning your career, cleaning your mindset, and cleaning your innovation strategy.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Exactly. And we could not have a better guest for this conversation. So excited. She is an innovation leader, a brand builder, and an author of Innovation is Ugly. So there's your hint. I feel like April, Christina, sells us this fantasy of flowers and sunshine and clean slates.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

But actually, there's a little bit of sunshine, but it's still freaking freezing. You think, wear the cute summer dress. But you go outside and it's like all this bright sunshine and the wind is so cold. And it's just basically new beginnings that that kind of look like mess burst.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

This back and forth, uh, I swear the weather is bipolar. It's like, I'm just teaching. I think I want to be hot. I think I want to be cold. Never mind. But it's also, you know, nobody, nobody's telling us about this middle part of this transition of coming from the cold into the summer, right? That's what spring's all about. It's a transition from cold to warmth. And, you know, we're seeing that wobble back and forth. Maybe the uncertainty of the season. The wait, am I actually doing this? Am I going all in? That phase.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I love the way you pivoted that. That is perfect. And exactly why why I'm so excited about today's conversation. Because our guests' whole lens on innovation is basically stop pretending transformation is tidy. It is so, so not. But if I say any more, then I will give up the gig and tell you who it is. And that's not the way we roll. So let's go into a little bit of darjealing, darling. Let's look at what the weekly tea is going on, is happening today. So today's uh today's spilt tea is people tea. A strong beauty move, a strong beauty leadership move out of India. That's half my intensity. Hindustan Unilever has named Sinanda Khaitan as chief marketing officer for its beauty and well-being portfolio, effective January 2026. She's based in Mumbai and will now help steer marketing across Hindustan Unilever's beauty and personal care brands, spanning both mass and premium segments. Multiple trade reports say that she stepped into the role after leading Lakme. Now, if you know your Indian brands, Lakme is Yoge in India. Incredible brand, which makes us feel less like an outside hire and more like a signal that uh Hindustanian labor is betting on proven internal brand builders.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

And we love that. Beauty, I feel like right now, is one of those categories where it's all about elevating the science and promoting that self-care, you know, premiumization, but affordable premiumization and really storytelling. So much of it is that storytelling, right? And it's all coming together at once. So this feels like it's definitely not just a title change. It's a pretty big portfolio to shape at a moment when consumers demand efficacy. They want that aspiration, and they also want it to be relevant for them and uniquely meeting their needs all at the same time. Quite, quite the challenge. But for us, I think that take the takeaway is pretty simple that companies are still rewarding marketers who can balance the brand building with the commercial rigor. And Sunanda's appointment feels exactly like that kind of move.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

And we silly. Now for the industry tea. And this one is giving a little bit the futures here, and she's a little bit terrifying. Potentially. Now, Anthropic announced project class wing on April 7th of this year. They'll run Claude Mythos Preview. An unreleased model the company says is so capable in cybersecurity that it is not being released publicly. I read the uh full report on this. It's so st it's it's phenomenal reading. Anthropic says the model can find and exploit software vulnerabilities at a level beyond anything we've seen before. So instead of opening it up broadly, they have taken the responsible, controlled invite-only process in terms of the defensive program.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

But that partner list that they're inviting in is pretty stacked. So we know early access under Glasswing has some really big, heavy-hitting names like Amazon, Apple, Cisco, Google, CrowdStrike, JP Morgan Chase, Microsoft, NVIDIA, I mean, all the big hitters, the heavy hitters are coming, right? And dozens of other organizations that are maintaining critical software infrastructure. Routers reports the launch has already triggered concern among regulators, banks, and security leaders because I mean, pretty obviously, there would be some concern there. If they can find the vulnerabilities, they could also find them and turn around to use them, right, as a competitive advantage. So if AI can find the vulnerabilities faster than any human can patch them, the whole risk equation is being turned upside down.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Completely.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

So the question is why does this matter to our world?

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Because even if you're not a cybersecurity company, you're absolutely a company sitting on consumer data, retail systems, media platforms, supply chains, e-commerce infrastructure. This is one of those stories that sounds a little bit like tech people tea. And you have to step back and realize it is not. It is a it could be a brand trust issue, an operational resilience issue, and most importantly, a boardroom issue.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, it's in it's important. I think that that headline here is not just wow, look at what AI can do now or feeling scared of, again, AI taking over the world. But that headline is AI capability is now moving so much faster than most organizations' governance models can keep up with. And that means, you know, those brands that win won't just be the most innovative, but they'll be the most prepared for that. And that's important.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Great. So that was the tea. We didn't just give you a cup and saucer this time, people. We gave you a whole big massive freaking mug, builder's mug of tea, right? As they say in London. So one is about who gets to shape the future of beauty, and the other is whether any of us are ready for the future of AI taking over the world.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Well, to end it on a piece of happy news, I would I definitely want to mention today is a very special day. It is April 20th. We are recording, and it is my daughter's birthday. My firstborn, Katiri, is now officially a teenager. So speaking of being ready for the future, am I ready to step into being a mother of a teenage daughter?

SPEAKER_02 8:03

There's no precarious than AI, Christina.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Exactly. Happy birthday, Katiri! Birthday, baby. And now our guest today knows a thing or two about reinvention. Tina Lambert is a powerhouse marketer, innovation driver, and brand reviver who has spent more than 25 years transforming some of the most recognizable names in food and beverage. And now she's making a bold move into automotive as chief marketing officer at PowerStop. From helping fuel the growth behind Hostis brand's$1.4 billion acquisition to reviving a century-old brand with no advertising for over a decade to building innovation engines that delivered major revenue and profit growth at Hostis and Tyson. Tina has built a career on making brands matter again. She blends consumer insight, omnichannel strategy, innovation, and commercial impact in a way that doesn't just move the brand forward, it moves the business. So for a conversation about new beginnings, bold pivots, and what it really takes to unlock growth, we could not have had a better guest. Tina, we're so excited to welcome you to the SheCommerce podcast.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Thank you. I'm excited to be here and chat with you guys.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

It is such a pleasure, Tina.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

And we're gonna go straight in with trying to eke out all of that wisdom from you today. So we're looking here at the spring cleaning of identity, right? And this episode is all about cleaning, spring cleaning, new beginnings. And when you hear that phrase right now, what in your life or career feels like it's being cleared out and what feels newly possible?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, well, Christina just mentioned in her intro, I have just made a major career pivot. After spending 25 years, um, actually more than that, over 25 years in food and beverage, I'm moving into automotive and specifically aftermarket break parts. And that is feeling very fresh and clean right now. And I don't know automotive as either a marketer or a consumer. So I am not at all like I'm not a car person. You know, I drive a Honda Pilot. I'm very, very simple when it comes to cars, and I always have mechanics do everything. So this is like starting with a knowledge base of nothing. And what I'm loving about it is that while I don't have a knowledge base like I do in food and beverage, where every problem I've probably seen before and every idea I've seen before, I don't also have that baggage, right? I don't have all that baggage of, oh, well, this is so familiar, kind of the jaded of like this probably isn't gonna work. I've seen this fail in the past. I have completely fresh eyes. And you know, when you think about like how much hope that brings, having completely fresh eyes. Cause to me right now it feels like anything is possible. You know, I'm really excited about the opportunity to aggressively grow the brand these brands in the aftermarket break category. And it feels like there's tons of potential to do that. And I am someone with a natural curiosity and a desire to constantly be learning. And so this deep in my career to have the opportunity to really feel like I'm learning and be a little bit uncomfortable is is honestly amazing. So I'm enjoying that too.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Tina, does it feel like day one?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

It does in a lot of ways. Yeah. It it feels kind of like, okay, I, you know, I've always, because I've spent so much time in food and beverage, just been able to kind of guess who the consumer target probably was gonna be when I started on a new brand and probably what some of their challenges are, and probably some of what the innovation ideas were in the pipeline. You know, that's just always been instinctive. And now I'm I'm kind of starting from a place of I have to figure out who the consumer target is and what they need and what they're looking for and what the opportunities are. And it's honestly though, it's very refreshing. It's I keep using the word fun. It's kind of fun to start from the beginning and figure it all out. I bet.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Well, this isn't your first career transition. You've spoken about going through a major career transition back in 24 and knowing that in your current role an acquisition would likely lead to your layoff at that point. Want to understand like what did that season and that time force you to confront about, you know, control or lack of control, giving up control, you know, identity, maybe, you know, thinking about what's next and what success actually means now.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah. So in late 2023 and then into 2024, I was part of a successful exit um at Hostess Brands. And if you aren't familiar with the Hostess story, you might remember Hostess went bankrupt about 11 years ahead of that, um, which was all in the news. The Twinkies were literally taken off shelves and people went nuts about that. And then it was the assets were bought by private equity, then it ended up going public a few years later. And then of course, Jam Smucker ended up acquiring the business in 2023. So for us a stakeholder or a shareholder in that business, it's a huge success story, right? Like what an amazing turnaround of a business that had been bankrupt. But as a member of the executive leadership team, you know, I ended up without a job in that transition. And so for me, you know, that was the first time in my career that that had ever happened. I had been lucky to never be part of a layoff before. And honestly, it was it was terrifying. And it made me feel incredibly insecure to the point that I actually got ill. Actually, the the week before the deal closed, I ended up in the ER with heart palpitations. Because I was just so stressed out. And and that's all about like why was I so stressed out? It was all about control and identity. I have worked really hard to get to where I am in life, and I had a lot of things along the way that worked against me, right? And so losing my job brought up all these deeply rooted insecurities that I hadn't really felt since the very beginning of my career. And I'll just I'll tell you really quickly my story of my journey. Oldest of seven kids, because of that, I wasn't able to go to my college of choice because we could not afford it. I was very disappointed uh to end up, you know, somewhere that I didn't feel like represented how hard I'd worked in high school to get straight A's and all the things I did that were all the right things. So I ended up kind of angry and acting out and pregnant at 18. And then I ended up on welfare in order to afford medical care and food and baby formula, those basic things. And I stayed in school. I worked multiple jobs to pay my way through school. And then I got this amazing internship at Hasbro Toy Group, which was in the marketing research department, and it introduced me to this world of brand management. And then I sort of backdoored my way into Proctor and Gamble coming out of that and got this amazing job in brand management that started my career. But at the time, Proctor Gamble for brand marketing roles, those were such coveted roles. They were hiring from almost all Ivy League schools. And I did not fit in. I was a girl coming off of literally coming off of welfare, coming into Proctor and Gamble to be part of their brand management team. And I just felt like I stuck out like a sore thumb. I didn't know how to behave. I hadn't come from a corporate family, I hadn't come from a wealthy background. And so I really questioned like, did I deserve to be there all the time? And I've come so far from that moment. But when I like lost my job through no fault of my own, through actually, well, I guess it's sort of my fault. My team did such a great job that we ended up, you know, selling the business at a huge multiple. But it brought up all those insecurities again. It it brought up all those feelings of like, do I belong here? Do I deserve to be here? You know, that was surprised me. I didn't expect that to come back up because it's been such a long, long journey from there. But what it really taught me, when you think about identity and control, is that success can't be this locked-in plan, right? You have to be flexible and roll with the punches. Corporate America is unpredictable, and you have to be willing to kind of keep redefining what success looks like for you. And so actually last year, I made the decision to exit another job without having one lined up. And that, you know, for a moment, some of those terror and insecurities started to bubble up. And then I reminded myself, you know what? You are infinitely adaptable as all humans are. You will find the right next thing. Just just ride this out. And and now I have. And and it's not what I would have planned. If I would have said what success looked like, it would not have been ending up transferring into automotive, right? I would have never even thought of that. But I'm really, really excited that that's where my journey has taken me.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Talk about new beginnings. That is that's quite this, quite the journey. Thank you for sharing that. That that's I mean, kudos to you to have that strength and to and then to go from you know, unwillingly to willingly putting yourself in that same position again and just leaning into it, knowing that, like you said, you are infinitely adaptable. I love that. Um, yeah, bravery.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

But the bravery of that is a very good thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

I always say that you I always say that um, you know, people always tell me whenever people hear my story, especially about being a single mom in corporate America, so young. I would say, Oh, that was so brave. And I always say, it's not about bravery. Like for me, I didn't have my head up looking at the horizon and and walking right into the sunset, right? I had my head down looking at my feet, going one more step, get through today. And I think sometimes that's what bravery really is, is just the slog of like one day at a time, one step at a time, just keep it moving. And then you find your, you find your way, you know, you eventually look back and realize how far you've come. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

But it is the courage to get up every day and push through that and continue forward, right? Knowing that maybe you don't have, you don't know where the future will lead, but you know that you need to keep that momentum. So thank you again for sharing. And and from welfare to author, I mean, what a success story. I have your book right here, Innovation is Ugly. And would love to talk a little bit about that title because we love it. It's it's so real, so raw. But why like to hear from you? Why is innovation ugly? What are people still getting completely wrong in the way that innovation actually happens? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

When people think about innovation, even like when you Google innovation, right, and you look up images, all you get is like light bulbs surrounded by rainbow colors, right? And so when people think about innovation, they think about the fun part. They think about the creativity and the ideas, right? And the reality is that innovation is hard work. It's hard work every day. There are constant challenges. You know, and my my book is is about product innovation specifically, because it's what I know. I'm coming from the CPG industry. When you think about product innovation, it's a team sport. And even though it takes this whole cross-functional team to be successful, I think one of the ugly things about innovation is that it's very lonely sometimes. And the reason why I say it's lonely is really two reasons. One, because so many things do tend to go wrong on product innovations, if you don't have a collaborative cross-functional team, a lot of times there's finger pointing and blaming. Whose fault is it that we can't figure this out? Or whose fault is it that this launched and has now gone wrong? And teams don't always have each other's back. And the other reason it's lonely is because there aren't a lot of mid and senior level executives who really have innovation expertise. And so when you're an innovator, like trying to work through all these barriers and trying to figure out how to get something to market, a lot of times you don't have someone to rely on for advice, right? That you can go to and be like, how, you know, how do I get around this wall that we just hit? And so what happens is that you tend to rely on consultants. And consultants have actually no real world experience with innovation. They just have theories. And so you end up, again, just sort of feeling like you're dealing with these constant barriers and challenges and doing it alone. And that's ugly. Uh it really takes a lot of strength to be a successful innovator in the CPG world.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Thick skin, too, right? And working through ambiguity, like you said, and continue to press on and not not taking it personal when you have to pivot it if you see a failure, or if at first you don't succeed, right? Keeping it going, keep keep going, keep trying to pivot.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

It's especially and I and I think the viewpoint you're coming from too, Tina, is when you're not necessarily the one who gets to make the decisions or make the pivot, and you've got to present that as a fate accompli for it to go on to the next stage. And that is so hard because it's not only the idea, but it's presenting it in a way that other people will be on board with. And yeah, you're you're so right. Innovation is so hard, even though you can see clear as day that this makes sense. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

There's a lot of stakeholders you have to get through, and a lot of like hoops you kind of end up having to jump through in a lot of bigger companies, especially to get innovation to market. And you're having to sell so hard internally, and then you have to pivot and sell so hard externally to get customers to take it. So then you have to sell so hard to consumers. So there's just there's these non-stop challenges thrown at you with innovation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Now, you've said that the book pushed back on a lot of myths and misconceptions around product innovation, and that it's intentionally casual and non-traditional, and a little ranty, which is basically she commerce. We're a little bit casual, a little bit non-traditional, and very ranty. I love it, especially Jackie. I heard that, but also facts. What gave you permission to write it that way instead of sounding more like a textbook?

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah. It's funny, uh permission. Um, I'm not someone to ask for a lot of permission. I I think the permission for me came from the same thing that empowered me last year to decide to make, you know, a job shift, which is I've just decided I'm at a point in my life where I'm gonna choose happiness versus what. is expected of me. Right. Like I I need to prioritize what's gonna make me happy, what I can live with. You know, it's my it's it's my life, it's my career, what's gonna make me feel happy and proud at the end of the day. And, you know, when I think about when I started to write this book, I love to read. So I am a crazy avid reader. I read about a book a week and I read from all genres. In fact, I intentionally try to shift between genres as I go book to book. And I'm very often reading something fiction and something nonfiction at the same time. So I read a lot of nonfiction. I read almost no business books. And I've worked in business, you know, almost 30 years. But I I just I can very rarely find an author that I can stand. Business books are so boring. They're so boring. They're so repetitive. Like in the first chapter they tell you everything the whole book is going to tell you and then they just drag it out. And then they tell you what they told you. And I just find all of that pedantic to be honest. And I find most of the ideas in business books aren't necessarily very new and revolutionary either. You know, when I got to a point in my career where I realized I'm really an expert in this space and there's not very many of us, I could I could write something that would really probably help a lot of people who came up like I did and didn't have a lot of advice. I knew there was no way I was going to write it in a traditional business book way. And um you know I'll just tell you like a funny anecdote which is I had an amazing editor on this book and she and I went back and forth a lot on the content. She would write me these little notes inside of this in the side of the manuscript right, you know, I don't think you need this joke here. Or you know maybe this title could be a little bit more straightforward so that people would understand what the chapter was about. And I would write back no this makes me laugh. It makes me laugh and I'm keeping it thank you.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

I love all the little pictures and drawings and um just humor that it's such an easy read and it's like a like you said it's a fun read and the first page was like a business book for people who don't like business books. I was like that's that's me too you know I'm I'm not a huge huge reader but a a book has to really keep me entertained and engaged and business books I agree completely like boring.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

It's more like a sleepbait but this was you know this like a beach read like I'm I'm good you know so people who know me tell me when they when they read the book that they feel like they can hear my voice in their head like saying it to them and they're like it's so your voice like it's so written in your voice and I'm like that's what I wanted like I I wanted it to be a conversation with me like you're basically getting advice from me on innovation and I'm kind of a goofball. So you know it's gonna reflect the fact that I'm kind of a goofball sometimes and there's a lot of there's a lot of what I would call dad jokes in there.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Hey we love dad jokes and maybe and you know this is this here's your idea put it in audible I know everyone keeps telling me I need to record it.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yeah I need to do that because it the fun thing that I you know I don't do a lot of audiobooks because uh part of why I like to read real books is because I can't then think about other things going on at the same time. But um some of my favorite audiobooks that I have listened to the authors will add little asides and that's always fun to get that like extra content. So I've thought yeah if I did an audiobook I wouldn't be able to help myself I would definitely add little extras and that would be like a fun thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

That would be fun. That would be hilarious. So going going back to the book one of the hot takes associated with a book is that the traditional innovation funnel is broken. What do leaders need to unlearn if they actually want better innovation outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah. This idea of an innovation funnel which is like that you start with a group of innovation projects and then your intention is to kind of weed them out and get down to like only one or two that really launch which in the book I say that sounds more like a sieve and not a funnel. Funnels are designed to keep everything going in the same direction. So I don't know why it's called a funnel and not like a cheese grater or something. But this idea of a funnel it's really been spread by a combination of business schools and consultants. And those are people who haven't led innovation processes in the real world I've overseen innovation you know for almost 30 years now and the funnel idea just isn't it just isn't right. It creates basically an easy out for the tough challenges that innovation projects usually have and when I have seen companies use like a be very verbal and very vocal about we're using a funnel type approach, what ends up happening is the easiest, least impactful innovation is all that makes it through because there's there's an understanding from everyone we don't need all of these well so this one got hard. So let's stop working on that one because that one's hard. And so then the only ones that kind of make it through are the ones that aren't going to actually grow your business in any meaningful way. And I know that not all innovation makes it that there are things that you just can't figure out the financials on or the technical feasibility on. And so it's not that I'm ignorant of that. My counter proposal is you build a three year calendar or if you work on a business that's pharma or you know aerospace and you're working on longer timelines, whatever however many years that is six years, 10 years, but you know for for food and beverage where I come from it's typically a three year calendar and you're really working on projects that aren't going to launch for three more years. You've got people actively resourcing all of those. And what a three year calendar does for you is two things. It gives you one time and two flexibility. So you have time to solve those bigger challenges because you're starting things far enough out that you're acknowledging that we're not just going to develop this in a couple months. This is going to take some time and have some challenges along the way. And then two, when something does hit a really big wall and splat, you say, okay, that project probably needs more time than we have left let's swap you know the thing in year three for year two because since I have started things further out, I know more about some of these other ideas that we don't need right this second, but I know enough about them to know they probably could pull forward and I've got a head start. And so it gives you the flex to kind of shift the order around. But what a three year calendar also tells the whole organization is listen, things are launching every year. There's no option here where you just say oh let's cancel this or let's delay this two years like nope nope there's a consistent steady stream of innovation coming. So it sets that expectation for them that like you got to figure stuff out. You can't just give up. And then I mean the last thing I'll say you know that I talk about in the book is who are these companies that have you know enough money and people to like fund two times or three times or four times the projects they need it's really only the really big really slow companies that can actually afford that. And I would argue some of those companies have some of the brands that are getting the furthest behind in their categories because of that behavior. So I think it's just this idea of a funnel really hurts companies who adopt it. That's my rant.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And I love it. No, there's so much truth in that and the focus on like the those products that maybe are more near term and easier to push through but not letting go of the focus of those that are you know more challenging that may reap more rewards but they're a few years out. Like you need you need both and you need um maybe resources across those both I think that's what companies also struggle with. Like how do you balance that? And I know you know there's a lot of women listening now who may be in their own like version of a messy middle and their own reinvention season that's happening. But maybe you know as you wrote this book what did it teach you about obviously building before you're fully ready and this was your first attempt at writing a book like this.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

So you didn't you didn't have all the answers for that but you you did it you committed yeah well I wrote this book when I was in the in a messy middle myself and the the book sort of exactly speaks to where my mental state was so I built it without a plan and so like let me back up this book um Innovation is Ugly it started as a ranch journal. So around 2017 I was working on a food service business that completely lacked discipline from an innovation perspective. And I would come home from work and I had a journal on my desk in my home office and I would like get my pen and I would like in all caps write you should never blah blah blah you know just whatever had happened that day. And then I you know I'd come home the next day and flip the page and write another thing that like we were doing that was all wrong that I knew was all wrong from an animation perspective. But the interesting thing is that journal sat in my office for six years and I kept writing in it. Sometimes I put things in my phone as well for it. But it wasn't until I was in the middle of a transition and panicking that same one we talked about earlier when hostess was being sold that I picked that journal up and said I'm gonna write this book. And I think what happens is that a lot of times when we're in transitions action starts to feel more important than a plan or like there's this desire to like do something to feel like you're doing something or to feel like you're moving something forward. And it's always like I'm gonna make the best out of this career transition. I'm gonna write a book. So I sat down and I was like here we go and I wrote three chapters and then I got completely stuck like no idea where to go from there. So then I bought some books on how to write a book and I read them and it was like you don't just you don't just write a book you like have to have a plan. And so then I like actually made a plan and like outlined the whole book first and then it went really smoothly after that. But I will say that people in the messy middle do this all the time. They jump to action without a plan and I am guilty of this as well. You know you find out you're losing your job and you panic and you call everyone you know, right? Especially everyone you know that's important. And you do that without knowing what you need from them or even like what you want next for yourself. And so they're completely ineffective conversations. And um I will say that like I have been guilty of this and been called on it by a senior mentor of mine. And now when people do this to me, I try to call them on it as well and say like hey you have to give yourself some grace and some time when you're in a transition to feel your feelings right you're gonna have a lot of emotions a lot of fear, you know, all those control and identity issues are going to come up and all your insecurities you have to give yourself the grace to just feel those feelings and then when your lizard brain quiets down and you your logic kicks back in, you've got to make a plan. And then only then should you start jumping to action. So I think that's was a really important lesson for me and the book is a good example of what happens when you jump to action in kind of a state of panic.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

I mean great reminders there's so many people going through transitions right now and I think that's amazing advice to just take that step back reflect like what do you really want and what help are you really asking people if you don't know yourself how can you ask others for that support right we'd like to pivot to the uh to another um kind of uh phase uh that you've gone through your team you've gone from sort of big company muscle versus small brand energy and and your career has spanned both enterprise environments and and smaller high growth companies right but what are the biggest mind shifts that or I should say mindset shifts required when you move from scale and structure into leaner, faster growth agile environments.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah I think you know the biggest thing I've seen because I've worked at some of the biggest food companies in this country right Tyson's a$50 billion company I spent time at Procter and Gamble similar size. And then now I've pivoted late in my career to companies 1 billion, 2 billion, not 350 million, significantly smaller. And the biggest thing I see is that you have to be able to let go of perfectionism and the fear of being wrong and just be able to act on your gut. I would say the most successful people I see in small high growth environments are people who are already experts in what they do. And you know they know what good looks like they want to be unleashed from the red tape, the slowness and the politics of big companies. And when I hire those people that know what good looks like, know in their gut what we should do and you know I unleash them and just let them make decisions, they are enormously successful in small high growth environments. So that's really my focus for hiring I think it's um it's it's really really hard and I've seen this and in some of my peers too if you are and you have to know yourself if you are a perfectionist who likes to have every T crossed and every I dotted and likes to have a lot of data and analyze it to death you will be miserable in a small company environment because you will be so uncomfortable with just having to kind of make quick gut level decisions and push them forward and then own them. So I think that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

And staying with that what's one thing big legacy brands actually do better than people admit? And on the flip side one thing that smaller brands do better, faster and with less baggage. Yeah I I kind of have an idea on the second one but I'd love to hear what you're what you're gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah well for smaller companies it's easy it's decision making right when you're smaller and you don't have as many people you have to go through and there tends to be less processes it's about just fast decision making. And I think the only risk with that comes with you have to be a calculated risk taker to drive aggressive growth in those small companies because if you take big swings and you miss in a small company there's nowhere to hide. Right. And the impact on the company is going to be harder to cover. But on big companies I actually have an answer that I think some pe some people might not agree with but it's my hot take which is I actually think bigger companies are more innovative than smaller companies and the reason I say that is because I think big big companies tend to try more new things and you know when I think about like new marketing tactics when I think about new technologies when I think about new processes new ways of working big companies have the scale the budget the customer relationships the supplier relationships right and the expertise and the people resources to be able to try new things all the time right to be able to just carve out little groups of people or little groups of money to go try some stuff. And what's interesting is that I feel like small companies get credit for all of the innovation for all the innovative actions. Typically a small company will just have one thing they're doing differently right one thing that's kind of their thing and they cannot afford from either a people or a money perspective to be innovative in all aspects of their business. They just can't. They have to be really focused. And so I will tell you that one of the things that really frustrates me is when big companies are like we need to act more entrepreneurial, be more like a small company. And I think that's great if what they mean is from a decision making standpoint, like hey we're gonna carve off this small team and we're gonna let them be autonomous. That's great. Because then they can actually probably go a lot faster than they could within your big company with all the processes. But a lot of times when big companies say that what they really mean is let's just spend nothing on this and just go do it. Right. Like let's just fling some stuff out the door with no support and no testing. And that doesn't make any sense and no small company would ever turn their nose away at money or experts. So big companies never should either yeah it's under the guise of agility. Right exactly right yeah yeah I t I talk about that in the book when people senior leaders ask you to be more agile you have to figure out if what they mean is they really want you to pick up some of the big A agile tools that could be really helpful or what they really mean is I just want this faster and cheaper.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Well for those founders and operators that are are trying to build an emerging brand right now what's the ugliest part of innovation that maybe nobody gives you that forewarning about early enough in the process. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

I have a chapter in my book I think is chapter seven called What the Duck Do You Own? And it's all about how important it is to have a point of difference on your innovation. And I think that it's one of the as I was laying it out in the book even I was like this is a really high standard right um but the reality is what I've seen, you know, and in all my years of innovation is that innovation that is wildly successful in market usually has three things. One, it's meaningful to consumers, right? Duh two, it's ownable. So you're probably the only one who's doing it. You're kind of leading the market. And three, it's single minded right it doesn't have a million benefits behind it. It's something that's really simple and easy for people to understand. The reality is that most innovation is like copycatting. Most of what you see out there is just new to that brand and not to the category or to the consumer it's a lot of copycat innovation. And when you see an innovation that addresses an actual market gap that consumers care about, those are the huge successes. So you know when I think about things that have like completely changed categories it's like you know some of the classic ones like PNG went and added paper to the end of brooms and mops that absorbed the dirt right and that like completely changed the broom and mop business. It never was the same. Think about air care it used to just be candles and then we invented plugins like that changed air care forever. And now you don't have to have the fire risk from candles. You know maybe more recently flavored beer alternatives beer alternatives when I was a kid like Zima and stuff, I shouldn't say kid, appropriately aged young were like heavy and sweet and thick. And now like Seltzer has come in and like reinvented all of those malt beer alternatives with something that's like light and healthy and has a completely different reputation and they've like completely changed what that category means. So you know if you find something that's meaningful meaningful to consumers ownable and single minded like you can really make a huge difference. It's a high bar. It's a high bar.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Not easy and all those copy cats someone had to have the first idea to copy right so trying to find that and like you said it's something ownable and differentiated it it's not easy but that's that's what you should strive for. Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

Let's move to another part of uh your your book where you're talking about leadership and reinvention right when you strip away title company logo and the exter external markers people clap for on LinkedIn what part of your leadership stayed true through all the change?

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Yeah um I would say how much my team matters to me which is gonna sound trite but if you ask anybody who's worked for me they will tell you it is true. I, you know, I think what motivates us is like deeply rooted in who we are as people right so if you think about me and my background I'm the oldest of seven kids and I'm a single mom. So like what is deeply rooted in who I am like I am the one that takes care of everybody and I am like the defender of my people. So I'm kind of a mama bear in all aspects of my life and I'm also I'm also very competitive. So I always want to have the best team like I want my team to be the best at the company like in the world like I want us to be the best. And and so because of that I try really hard to like you know coach my people up give them a lot of feedback but also really empower them and push them to kind of be their best selves and I get really really attached to my people and you know anytime I have any kind of you know change in company hardest thing is always leaving the people behind. It's it's so hard because I always want to just take everybody with me. I wish I I wish I could. And at the end of the day like people are what make work fun and what make it worth it. And you know getting to see people who I've worked with along the way now like be so wildly successful and like continue to grow and expand their careers is really rewarding for me. So that's definitely what matters most. And I you know I'm at the point in my career now where this is all I ever dreamed of. Like I can't even believe I'm here as a chief marketing officer. I don't want anything beyond this.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

So now it's about how do I help others and you know and and you know bring them along especially other women who don't bring them no no no Tina no no no this should not be where you decide to hang your hat up I think you should be CEO of the world yes yeah best selling also there's a lot best selling support and I I think next step Christina you know go with me on this I'm definitely CEO of the world can you imagine? Tina Lombard fixes the world I just I can see it.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

I would never sleep it's overrated you reminded us about letting go of perfection but I think a lot of women are taught from an early age to you know to appear perfect right and to make especially in work those transitions look so seamless.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

What in your opinion do we lose when we overpolish the pivot and keep up this idea of perfection yeah um you know I think that I feel like this whole idea of there's all these things we don't talk about right think about how on social media everybody polishes up their lives to look perfect. And even in the how is your weekend conversations we polish up our lives and skip kind of the bad parts and I think what what it makes us lose is we lose the ability to have true empathy both for others and from others. Because then when something goes wrong in our lives we feel like oh we're not supposed to talk about it. Right. We're supposed to just kind of hold it inside and if you'll forgive me to for a brief like soapbox moment, like I think of parallel as women's healthcare and how nobody talks about women's healthcare. You know, we don't talk about all the symptoms of menopause and how early they start and the brain fog is real people. We don't talk about mammograms with younger women and warn them You probably have dense breast tissue and you're gonna get a letter that's gonna make you think you're dying of cancer and you're not. We just don't talk about these things with each other. We hold them inside. And I see the same thing happens with work transitions. People are absolutely terrified and they need support and they're kind of afraid to share what that what that really feels like and how they're really not okay. And um, having been through now a couple of those transitions and knowing how terrifying they can be, I am able to like draw that out in people and say, I know you're scared, you know, um, I know you're feeling overwhelmed. I know you're feeling like, you know, you're you're doing math on how long you can afford to not have a job. Like you have to relax and you have to like really try to enjoy this time and then get to a better place and think about, you know, that this opens up new possibilities for you. But when we're not open about our struggles, um, we don't open the door to have some of those conversations and get the help we need or to give others the help that they need. So I do think it's really important for people to be more open about those things. And uh, it's interesting. I do feel like, you know, the couple times I've seen people be open on, for example, LinkedIn about it, people really come come for them and are like, I'm here, what can I help you with? You know, especially people who've been through it before. So um, you know, I I try whenever I come across someone in a transition to have those open conversations because I've been there, but I wish people would have had those open conversations with me beforehand, so I would have been prepared myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

You are so right. All we can do is you know so completely right. You know, just going back to the menopause conversation, you know, points you made. I realized late last year that there are, you know, the hot flashes that everybody talks about? There are cold flashes that nobody talks about. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

And it's like I have a space heater on right now. Same, same. My feet are under one right now.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

I had to Google this stuff. And I'm like, why? Why am I having to Google this stuff? Why is there not clear information available for everybody on? Not just the brain fog, not just the you know, the hot flashes, and why is everything about around metaphors? Oh my god, you have to you know, like everything goes wrong. Why not talk about the fact that it's not the most scary thing in the whole world? Talk about how there are so many variations of it, but just to your point, be open and talk about this and stop hiding it away like it's oh my god, it's it's it's shameful, it's bad, it shouldn't, you shouldn't talk about it. Because because and and and also, let's face it, the the challenge is that menopause means that you're in that phase of your life as a woman, right? And as a woman, we're not supposed to age, right?

unknown 46:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Yeah, we can't talk about it. Well, women go through it at different ages too. Yeah. I I could go on and on about menopause and women's healthcare in general. Miscarriages, there's so many things we don't talk about as women that we consider shameful, even though a large percentage of us go through them. Yeah. And and I do think career transitions are the same way. And it it's for the same reason, right? There's some shame that even when it's a mass layoff that has nothing to do with your performance, or like in my case, like my company was sold, nothing to do with my performance, right? You still feel a certain amount of shame and you feel a little bit embarrassed to ask for help. And we've got to get past that because this is the reality in corporate America with restructuring and acquisitions, like this happens to people every day. And we've got to be there for those folks and and talk openly about the experience.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

And and get away from that stigma. Like even if you are caught up in in a restructure or downsizing, you know, some people are like, well, they cut the fat. Like, that's not true. You know, they also they look at, you know, where there might be overresourced or who's getting paid the most, like where are the savings? There's so many factors that go into it. And I think getting that stereotype out of people's mind is half the battle as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yeah. Agree.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

With with with this journey that you're on as well, what what are you building into this next chapter on purpose? What are you building on purpose that's different than before?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

It's a great question. You know, one of the things that I've really been trying to start to um work on is as I get closer to my retirement, you know, I've been working for almost 30 years, and as I start thinking about like, you know, what's the next next chapter for me in in my life, I am trying to use that as a way to keep perspective. You know, I'm a person who I, you know, my job is is so much of what my identity is, and it has been that way for so long. Um, but I also tend to get very absorbed in my job to where the fact that it not only defines me, but it like is is living rent-free in my brain 24-7, you know, where sometimes I can't, I can't sleep, I can't, you know, stop thinking about on the weekends. And, you know, what's gonna matter to me in five to six years when I retire, right? Like it's the end of the day, it's gonna be about the people I love, right? Who's in my life, my friends, my family, the, the causes that I volunteer with. Those are the things that at the end of the day are going to matter. And so I'm trying really hard to keep my future in mind and kind of um keep manifesting that future and keep reflecting on it to keep the day-to-day stress in better perspective so that I don't get quite as like overwhelmed and sucked in to the to the the current, you know, problems that you have every day that that we all know in retrospect don't matter that much, then you always find a way through them. Yeah. The great I mean what you the great reminder.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

It's just really hard to, you know, sometimes pull yourself back. Right, Christina? Right now. Yeah. Very much. Alrighty. Well, Tina, you've gone through all of our big, fat, serious questions. Now we have a couple of uh fast fire, uh, a fast fire round, if you will, a quick fire round. Okay. Um, and it's kind of, you know, straight off the cuff, what's the first thing you're thinking? And it real short, you know, one word or one sentence answer. So I'm gonna get started. Okay. What's one innovation buzzword you would like to retire this spring?

SPEAKER_00 50:26

I'm gonna cheat. It's a phrase. Bigger, fewer, bigger, better. I hate fewer, bigger, better. I hate it so much. It's like nails on a toe. This is a drinking game. We should all be drinking now because we ain't having that. Do not say that to me. Innovation is an investment, and win like, okay, I'm talking to you about your portfolio, Jackie. Fewer, bigger, better. Like, are you kidding? Like, just go buy three stocks. No, that's crazy. And it's crazy in innovation. I hate it when people say fewer, bigger, better. It's nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Christina, I think Tina hates fewer, bigger, better. I think that's safe to say, yeah. All right. So, what deserves? Next question. What deserves a comeback more? Guts, patience, or common sense. Ooh, this is gonna be a good one. I really want to hear what you say to this.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Possible question. Um guts, patience, or common sense. I have a lot of guts and um a lot of common sense, and I think I probably lack patience. And you know what's interesting? I always talk about this is not fast enough, sorry, but I talk about strengths theory a lot. And I always say that like whatever your biggest strength is, you have a corresponding Achilles heel. And I feel like a lot of executives are really good at like being drivers, right? Drive for results, action-oriented. And so a lot of executives lack patience. I find that all the time. And I think patience does deserve a compact because what is patience really about in the workplace? It's about caring about your people. It's about taking the time to listen to them and bring them along and all of that. And when you think about the generation that's entering the workforce right now, they are more anxious than any generation ever has been. And so if patience is about, you know, being careful and being caring, then I think it deserves a comfort.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

I agree. And yeah, your point about active listening, having empathy is part of patience. And yeah, I mean, I think this over, especially with younger generations, like the immediate gratification. There is no patience, right? They don't know how to be bored. And I think that is such an important bit to learn, like how to sit in your feelings, how to be content and and how to invest or something greater, right? That payoff.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

All right. What's your personal tell that a brand idea is truly promising versus just well packaged?

SPEAKER_00 52:37

I think that a lot of it is about what I talked about with innovation ideas before, that it's consumer meaningful, ownable, and single-minded. But for me, I think it's also about that it's a real insight, that it's like something real people can relate to and care about. So, like I think the the brand ideas that it like touch me the most, some of these are probably overplayed, but like Dove Real Beauty continues to touch me. Like they that team is brilliant. Like what they've done with that brand. You know, it started just being about body shape and what shapes don't show up in in beauty, but then they've taken it and addressed so many other things, hair type, right? Like they just keep going after these stigmas in the beauty industry. And I I'm here for it. I clap for it. I think like Snickers is another one, the whole hanger campaign, you know, you're not in you when you're hungry. I can personally relate to that one a little bit too much. And so, like, I thought that was brilliant because I was like, I get that. That's me. And it they made it really ownable for them. So, like, I think the brand ideas that like address a real consumer problem and try to propose a solution. Like those are the ones that you're you look at it and you're like, yeah, that's that's super smart.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Well, it's like exposing that deep human truth that you know, you can just you understand. And as a marketer listening to those messages, you're like, Oh, I wonder what what was underneath that, or like what was the insight that drove that? So yeah, I'm with you. Those are those are great examples. Um, all right, and this is a fun one. We always ask people this what's your go-to hype song when you're getting ready to be on stage or do a big presentation, whatever that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

I'm a Gen X girl, so I always bring the 90s hip hop. Um always. Um, I don't know whether I have a song. Plus, I, you know, some of the lyrics are problematic, but you can't help it if you're a Gen X girl and you grew up with a 90s hip hop. You love the 90s hip-hop. Yeah, I mean, give me anything like Snoop at I Love Me Some Ice Cube. I love the girl groups that still together, dude. Oh ladies nine out. Yeah. If I have to do something and I have no energy, that's I got Alexa on 90s hip-hop.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

I'm like absolutely same. Oh my god. Oh, and a little bit of Whitney. Let's not forget Whitney. Oh, yeah. We never forget Whitney.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

But not Mariah. I'm done with Mariah. Uh yeah, I'm over her.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Okay, so Christina, we need to book time with Tina to go out partying or karaoke.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yes, yeah, percent.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

We're there for it.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

I'm a terrible singer, but I'm I'm a wild and crazy dancer because I just don't care.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Yeah. Tina, have you heard us sing on this podcast? We're with you on the terrible sing. Tina has a good voice. I'm a terrible singer, but I don't care because I love it.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

I sing anyway. I mean, it won't stop me. You just have to put up with it. I have to have patient friends.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

What it won't stop you now?

SPEAKER_00 55:31

That's right. Love it. I'm here, I'm here for the puns. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Tina, this was such a real conversation. Thank you. I think so many people glamorize reinvention. But you gave us the truth, and that sometimes, you know, the next chapter just sits in uncertainty.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

Yeah. And I honestly, our theme for the month has been about spring cleaning and reinvention. And and I think what you reiterated about letting go of that polished version of growth, of perfection, and just making room in your life for the real version just resonated so much. And I I think many women need to hear that and give themselves the grace to do that as well.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

You're infinitely adaptable, and you will you will find your way to something that will make you happy and embrace spring cleaning and reinvention as a chance to maybe do something you wouldn't have otherwise done. That's that's how I think about it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 56:27

So, Tina, before we go, before we let you go, we have one final question to ask.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Oh no, and Jackie's using her deep voice. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Oh, yes, yes, yes. This is the serious voice. With every episode of She Commerce, we're building a growing network of female leaders and advocates.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

So, Tina, will you take the pledge with us to pay it forward, continue to amplify women's voices, and help shape the future of commerce? Of course. Yes, I already do that every day. We do, and we appreciate it so much. And we appreciate you being on our show and just being so transparent and genuine. I could keep the conversation going. I'm encouraging everyone to go out, order your copy. It's on Amazon. Innovation, it's ugly. It is a fun, easy read. You will not regret that decision. And hopefully soon you can listen to it on Audible too.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Yeah, I gotta work on that. Yeah, really need. I may need Jackson to come with her amazing voice and and do like a little frickin' frack on some of her. Yes. You could be our ghost.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

We could we could Tina, we could do we could we could make it, we could make it like full of innuendo too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

Exactly. I mean some of it's there. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Ladies and gentlemen, what with with uh that in play and with uh with uh a thank you to our fabulous guest, Tina Lambert, all that's left for us to say is bold brands, fierce women, one sisterhood.